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Topic: Divisive Prog AlbumsPosted By: Frets N Worries
Subject: Divisive Prog Albums
Date Posted: May 07 2023 at 18:29
I'm talking albums such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, maybe some Amarok, the Wall (for those of you that consider it prog), maybe even some divisive songs, such as Benny The Bouncer (a masterpiece)
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Replies: Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 07 2023 at 21:09
Topographic Oceans is certainly that! Yes actually made a number of divisive albums , virtually everything from 1973 onwards has polarised opinion. This is partly because after 1972 they became the most scrutinised prog band along with Floyd. Fans want to keep the bands in a box and not let them explore. ELP to some extent fit the bill also especially with Works Volume One.
Posted By: Jacob Schoolcraft
Date Posted: May 07 2023 at 21:39
Prog fans wanting to keep their favorite Prog bands in a box and not desire for them to explore can be attributed to the familiarity they strongly develop for a specific band...however if their favorite bands were to stick to the same old formula then they would be a redundancy.
If you've already repeated a formula on three different albums then it's t
ime to try something new ..moving on breaking the barriers and receiving hate for it.
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 03:33
Well Benny the Bouncer is divisive now - never heard it called a masterpiece before, most people don't like it.
There are plenty of divisive Yes albums if you join the Yes Facebook group - Fly From Here, Open Your Eyes, practically everything in fact.
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 04:10
Undoubtedly, The YES Album that's been the Big Generator of the most controversy over the years is Tales from Topographic Oceans. YES, it's a long double album with four long Yessongs, which was treated as something of a rotten Tormato by the cynical music press, but if you Open Your Eyes, you'll gain The Keys to Ascension and realise what a classic album this is. The album came Close to the Edge of splitting the band up, when there was a Magnification of tensions within the group with so many Fragile egos at stake. In the ensuing Drama, Time and a Word has it that Rick Wakeman threatened to walk out during the recording of the album. The album climbed The Ladder of success though, topping the UK album charts for two weeks. Rick Wakeman left the band and didn't appear on the following Relayer album. There was Talk of a re-Union, but Heaven & Earth had to be moved to persuade Rick to return for the Going for the One album in 1977. The best-selling YES album of all time though, released in 1983, was famously named after its catalogue number, 90125.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 05:20
Frets N Worries wrote:
I'm talking albums such as Tales from Topographic Oceans, maybe some Amarok, the Wall (for those of you that consider it prog), maybe even some divisive songs, such as Benny The Bouncer (a masterpiece)
Do you just want to list, or do you actually also want to talk about them? (I'm asking as there isn't much talk in the opening posting.)
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 05:26
Both, I love divisive album, so I'm curious for more examples, and general discussion
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:01
Trout Mask Replica - Capt. Beefheart.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:05
I would say A Passion Play. Controversial, different than anything Tull had done before, The critics did not treated it well, but the fans took it to Number one in the charts.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:07
Oooh, I quite Like A Passion Play, it's no Thick as a Brick, but it's still quite good
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:14
Dream Theater - Awake - it's become a love it or hate it kind of album. It was a quite relevant, important album when it came out. Quite influential as well.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:26
Not sure whether Van der Graaf Generator's ALT counts as divisive, or it's just that I like it and nobody else...
Some would say that the whole VDGG catalogue is divisive, even their generally acknowledged best albums.
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:35
If we are talking 'Second Generation' bands, then I can't think of anything that divided opinion quite as much as The Mars Volta did during the early days of this forum...
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 06:42
My Top 10 Divisive Albums from the Eclectic Prog category. Well, they're divisive to me anyway, even if to no one else here.
1981: Steve Hackett - Cured - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdktF-lL0yEYUkNbC5UxJEBBQVLgHSVzk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdktF-lL0yEYUkNbC5UxJEBBQVLgHSVzk
1980: Peter Hammill - A Black Box - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3B3WZe6eGAdK1oQryOqsb3FJqoU1oBgk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3B3WZe6eGAdK1oQryOqsb3FJqoU1oBgk
1977: Island - Pictures - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEY0qBilPgU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEY0qBilPgU
1973: King Crimson - Larks' Tongues in Aspic - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nwJdj92uwTS0jn09Tykvmx9WUoniW2HYo" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nwJdj92uwTS0jn09Tykvmx9WUoNiW2HYo
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:10
YES, i think the wall is the Best PF album, and The Final Cut is the worst. It's weird, but that's how I think. Also I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:19
Frets N Worries wrote:
I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:20
Frets N Worries wrote:
YES, i think the wall is the Best PF album, and The Final Cut is the worst. It's weird, but that's how I think. Also I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
Interesting point of view. As much as i enjoy The Wall (and i played it to death at some point), it's not even top 5 PF for me.
The Final Cut is one of my least favorites from PF as well, some nice ideas here and there, but underwhelming compared to what came before.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:24
Well I mean... KC also has 'Red' and 'In the Court of the Crimson King' and 'Discipline', LTIA is GOOD, don't get me wrong, but not as good as the others I just mentioned, personally... maybe better than Islands.
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:30
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Frets N Worries wrote:
I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
Hardly divisive, 89% rate is Excellent or Essential and 3% Poor or Fan Only.
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:46
I mean, don't get me wrong, I love that album, i just don't see how people could put it in their top 3, or maybe even 5, it's still a great album, just KC has done better things.
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:54
Frets N Worries wrote:
I mean, don't get me wrong, I love that album, i just don't see how people could put it in their top 3, or maybe even 5, it's still a great album, just KC has done better things.
It's in my top 5 all-time and favorite KC album
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 07:55
Cristi wrote:
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Frets N Worries wrote:
I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
Hardly divisive, 89% rate is Excellent or Essential and 3% Poor or Fan Only.
Definitely, classic KC is beloved by most.
I think the KC albums from 1981 to 2003 are more divisive.
I agree. I should've chosen Discipline instead.
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:06
http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=32436" rel="nofollow - Zeit by Tangerine Dream is an album I personally love that's quite divisive:
review by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=636" rel="nofollow - greenback
What a shame!
The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that
turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm, and finally a coming cluster of
threatening killer bees!
There are tons of albums better than this one to describe the desolation once you go alone
on Mars!
The album is even not minimalist!
Rating: 0.5 star
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:07
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
My Top 10 Divisive Albums from the Eclectic Prog category. Well, they're divisive to me anyway, even if to no one else here.
1981: Steve Hackett - Cured - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdktF-lL0yEYUkNbC5UxJEBBQVLgHSVzk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdktF-lL0yEYUkNbC5UxJEBBQVLgHSVzk
1980: Peter Hammill - A Black Box - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3B3WZe6eGAdK1oQryOqsb3FJqoU1oBgk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3B3WZe6eGAdK1oQryOqsb3FJqoU1oBgk
1977: Island - Pictures - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEY0qBilPgU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEY0qBilPgU
1973: King Crimson - Larks' Tongues in Aspic - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nwJdj92uwTS0jn09Tykvmx9WUoniW2HYo" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nwJdj92uwTS0jn09Tykvmx9WUoNiW2HYo
2000: Thieves' Kitchen - Head - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mOaabTilQ7duqDvPoP6fyuuhqbkhOJsb0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mOaabTilQ7duqDvPoP6fyuuhqbkhOJsb0
1972: Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kOWdkl7AREpLB5vkYkhbv94GHycru9xHY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kOWdkl7AREpLB5vkYkhbv94GHycru9xHY
You can't be divisive on your own Paul.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:10
Saperlipopette! wrote:
https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=32436" rel="nofollow - Zeit by Tangerine Dream is an album I personally love that's quite divisive:
review by https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=636" rel="nofollow - greenback
What a shame!
The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that
turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm, and finally a coming cluster of
threatening killer bees!
There are tons of albums better than this one to describe the desolation once you go alone
on Mars!
The album is even not minimalist!
Rating: 0.5 star
I have a strange relationship with this album. Sometimes I say "this is awesome", other times "wtf is this thing?!".
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:11
^^ My opinion is divided on that issue.
Anyway, I'm sure I can't be the only one here who dislikes those ten albums. Can I?
Zeit is a 2-star album for me too.
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:26
Zeit is a great pick, took me ages to get my head round it.
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 08:30
David_D wrote:
As a rule I'd say, the divisive albums can be those which in general are middle-rated, and not those which are low- or high-rated,
as there's a majority agreement about the latter ones.
A bit edited addition to my argument in case, it could be difficult to see the logic in it.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:02
Brain Salad Surgery has always been a part of my life. I love all my Brain Salad Surgery children...I'm looking at you, Bennie The Bouncer. I find it funny that Bennie is a controversial figure among progheads.
Jerusalem was the controversial song among the few who knew...in the public square. Two controversial songs on one album...depending on your point of view. Carl Palmer commented-
“Jerusalem” was recorded by us, and it was banned immediately by the BBC. We thought it was an unbelievable piece of music. It actually summed up prog rock, British prog rock, in that moment in time. It had everything. It was so grand, it was so English, and it was absolutely perfect for the voice."
Zeit? "The music consists in 2-3 humming refrigerators at the same time, plus a portative fan that turns back and forth to make the anyway inexistent rhythm..." Funny. Very funny.
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:17
From http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:29
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
^^ My opinion is divided on that issue.
Anyway, I'm sure I can't be the only one here who dislikes those ten albums. Can I?
Zeit is a 2-star album for me too.
A dash of half-and-half with your caffeinated opinion, Paul.
I never listen to... at least, not anymore:
Adrian Belew - Lone Rhino
Steve Hackett - Cured
Peter Hammill - A Black Box
Thieves' Kitchen - Head
I adore:
Robert Fripp - Exposure
King Crimson - Larks' Tongues in Aspic
Motorpsycho - The Death-Defying Unicorn
Island - Pictures
Island-Pictures scares me. I collect and cherish my Halloween prog. Especially Lovecraft or Giger inspired Halloween goodies...err baddies.
The first time I listened to Larks? I spun the vinyl and began dusting my room. Several times I zig-zagged back to turn up the volume, because I couldn't hear it. Suddenly a sonic blast overwhelmed me...scared the daylights out of me. I loved Larks ever since.
Still Wrapping My Head Around:
Gentle Giant - Three Friends
Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
I don't get it...yet. Holding out hope, that it will click in a big way. It's happened before.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 09:33
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:44
Albums are divisive for one simple reason. Some people GET IT and some don't.
You have to have the musical ability to comprehend the intention of the artist at hand.
I've found many of the most divisive albums are actually some of the best musical expressions to be heard.
Tales From Topographic Oceans is the perfect example.
Brilliant in every way but not instant gratification for those unwilling to dig deeper.
This has always been the case whether it be jazz, 20th century classical or any musical expression.
Over the years i've seen the ratings for many of these divisive albums rise as people catch up to the artists' visions.
THis probably sounds snobbish but you can't comprehend calculus if you haven't mastered basic algebra :)
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:45
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 10:52
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but
I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and
behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have
been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't
agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O"
and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.
well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important.
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:01
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Undoubtedly, The YES Album that's been the Big Generator of the most controversy over the years is Tales from Topographic Oceans. YES, it's a long double album with four long Yessongs, which was treated as something of a rotten Tormato by the cynical music press, but if you Open Your Eyes, you'll gain The Keys to Ascension and realise what a classic album this is. The album came Close to the Edge of splitting the band up, when there was a Magnification of tensions within the group with so many Fragile egos at stake. In the ensuing Drama, Time and a Word has it that Rick Wakeman threatened to walk out during the recording of the album. The album climbed The Ladder of success though, topping the UK album charts for two weeks. Rick Wakeman left the band and didn't appear on the following Relayer album. There was Talk of a re-Union, but Heaven & Earth had to be moved to persuade Rick to return for the Going for the One album in 1977. The best-selling YES album of all time though, released in 1983, was famously named after its catalogue number, 90125.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:13
verslibre wrote:
The very definition of divisive.
You're probably right.
I have always enjoyed it.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:41
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).
Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).
The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.
Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).
Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.
Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 11:58
Lewian wrote:
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. Rating any album 3 or 4 stars is pretty normal, so a "divisive" album should have many 5 and 2 or 1 while having a good number of ratings. Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star (people come here for the music they like, so there's more going on at the upper end; an album with less than 20% 5 star just isn't very appreciated).
Let's have a look at some albums discussed here. Tales from Topographic Oceans just has 7% negative, Brain Salad Surgery has 5%, The Wall has 6% (Final Cut only 14% 5 stars on the other hand, against 28% negative ratings; Ummagumma has 14:18, kind of divisive but not very many who appreciate it highly though I'm one of them), A Passion Play just 5%, Tago Mago 7%, Awake 5%, Frances the Mute 8%. So all these are not super divisive as there are not that many who rate them 1 or 2. ALT on the other hand has only 7% 5 stars against 53% 1 or 2; other well known VDGG don't make 10% 1 or 2 stars, neither most of King Crimson, though Beat with 9:20 looks very negative (I'm one of the 9% to rate it at 5 stars!).
The most divisive album I have found is Trout Mask Replica, which collects 40% 5 stars against 20% 1/2 stars. That's quite something. Dream Theater's The Astonishing clocks in at 22% 5 stars, 32% 1 or 2 - in fact 22% 5 stars is quite astonishing with 32% negatives. A View From the Top of The World scores 31:12 (but doesn't have that many ratings), Octavarium 26:11. Dream Theater are pretty divisive indeed, if not Awake.
Later Mars Volta's Bedlam in Goliath qualifies with 24:15. Amarok just about makes the cut with 42:11. Zeit is indeed pretty divisive with 30:12. Not quite up there but still in is one of my favourites, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (30:10).
Looking at Zappa, Jazz From Hell misses by an inch with 19:11, other than that I didn't find any that came close to qualifying (occasionally 8% negative for generally appreciated albums). Neither get Gentle Giant in, nor Genesis (far too few negatives up to Wind and Wuthering, far too few 5 stars after), nor Camel (I think of Breathless as divisive, but just 10% 5 stars are not enough for this game).
Rush has Power Windows at 22:13 (I don't know that one), otherwise they are not quite as divisive. Let's look at Swans, The Seer has 36:13, To Be Kind 33:15, very divisive! There are more, but they have fewer than 100 ratings; even The Seer and To Be Kind have quite a bit fewer ratings than most other albums I mention here.
Just seen: Tangerine Dream Cyclone seemed to be a good candidate to me, but I'm surprised that it only has 8% 1 or 2 stars (personally I like it a lot).
Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:07
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:21
Cristi wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.
well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important.
No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:23
I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?
Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:24
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
<div ="avatarhp-"=""> https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow"> ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.
well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important.
No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it
if it's not a review, report it, tell the admins to get rid of it.
You can argue it's a poorly written, useless review and I'd agree.
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:35
^ in Chris H's defence I didn't post the full review (which is why I wrote "from"). I guess there's minimal improvement, but here's the rest:
...Maybe you
need to be on shrooms to get everything out of them? Just a thought...
Well anyways, "Bring Me Coffee Or Tea" is the only listenable track on this album, even the
so called "epic" "Halleluwah", which is once again, pointless. It's just a shame "Bring Me
Coffee Or Tea" was the first song I heard, because it cost me $2.50.
1 star, DO NOT BUY!...
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 12:57
Lewian wrote:
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............
Allright! That is a very thorough approach.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Steve Wyzard
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:27
3 pages in and so far no one has mentioned two of the most divisive prog albums of all:
Yes: 90125
Genesis: Abacab
(I happen to love'em both!)
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:39
If anybody could be curious about whether a particular album is divisive, RYM shows rating statistics for all albums.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:39
Using Lewian's formula (that I like)
Steve Wilson - The Future Bites - 10:40 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Yes - 90215 - 13:25 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Genesis - Abacab - 6:36 - not divisive just disliked broadly.
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:47
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
I'd say not on RYM, as the vast majority give it 2-4 stars, but you can have a look at the statistics yourself.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:52
David_D wrote:
Lewian wrote:
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............
Allright! That is a very thorough approach.
But it's of course still quite a question how exactly define "divisive".
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 13:55
divisive
dĭ-vī′sĭv
adjective
Creating dissension or discord.
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:00
David_D wrote:
If anybody could be curious about whether a particular album is divisive, RYM shows rating statistics for all albums.
And now I discovered that so does PA.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:03
Cristi wrote:
divisive
dĭ-vī′sĭv
adjective
Creating dissension or discord.
I meant an exact definition in relation to the "mathematical angle", as it's surely a matter of choice.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:12
David_D wrote:
David_D wrote:
Lewian wrote:
I had a look at this from a mathematical angle. ............
...............
Allright! That is a very thorough approach.
But it's of course still quite a question how exactly define "divisive".
To begin with, I would juxtapose 4-5 stars against 1-2 stars.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 14:25
Steve Wyzard wrote:
3 pages in and so far no one has mentioned two of the most divisive prog albums of all:
Yes: 90125
Genesis: Abacab
(I happen to love'em both!)
I love Big Generator more than 90125. Is that divisive?
When it comes to 90125 vs Abacab or Numbers vs Letter albums....I wonder which album do most people feel in the biggest Sellout? I vote Abacab by far, since I adore 90125.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:08
Of course my definition of "divisive" is just made up and you can have another one. Particularly I didn't specify a minimum number of ratings overall but I should, for being thorough (maybe 100 or 200). I have my reasons though; I say at least 20% 5 stars as there need to be enough people to defend an album passionately for being "divisive". Also higher ratings are generally preferred, therefore 20% isn't really that much. Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, so the number of 4 star ratings doesn't really indicate a polarising album, but as I said, you may disagree. Alternatively you can think of an album that has a very few really passionate fans and is not appreciated by many as "divisive" though (I'd defend Beat, ALT, and Ummagumma for sure). I found it interesting how few people actually rate albums such as Topographic Oceans, Passion Play, or even Tago Mago low, given that we have in mind that there are some haters (not necessarily meant in a negative way; I'd give one of these 2 stars myself ).
Anyway, Steven Wilson comes closer with To The Bone (18:16). You can check it yourself easily of course.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:12
Cristi wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it.
On PA I haven't seen much enthusiasm. Some like it but I don't think very passionately. Maybe it finds more love elsewhere.
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:19
Lewian wrote:
Cristi wrote:
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Does Steven Wilson's "The Future Bites" qualify as "divisive album" under the criteria outlined in your math formula?
I say it is divisive ,based on what I've seen here on PA and a couple other sites I've visited. People either praise it or totally dislike it.
On PA I haven't seen much enthusiasm. Some like it but I don't think very passionately. Maybe it finds more love elsewhere.
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:35
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
Using Lewian's formula (that I like)
Steve Wilson - The Future Bites - 10:40 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Yes - 90215 - 13:25 - not divisive, not enough 5 stars
Genesis - Abacab - 6:36 - not divisive just disliked broadly.
Yeah, subjective perception of "divisive" can be different from the numbers. I suspect people who give Topographic Oceans 3 stars think they're rather disappointed and negative given how good Yes were otherwise roughly at that time, whereas those who give Abacab 3 stars (even maybe the same people) think they're rather positive as they kind of like the album and rate it better than what they hear from others. Numbers are good at showing such things. Of course if there is a huge number of ratings as for the Yes albums, even small percentages amount to a fairly large number of people.
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:37
If to be quite serious about this "divisive" stuff, I'd say:
4-5 stars - "likes"
1-2 stars - "dislikes"
an album is "divisive" when ratings are:
1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%
2. likes + dislikes = at least 60% of all ratings
3. minimum 300 persons have rated
But that might be too serious.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 15:48
David_D wrote:
1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%
That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 16:51
Lewian wrote:
David_D wrote:
1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%
That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.
Just something to think about, and you have surely more experience to make a more realistic definition, which might be interesting to see.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 16:56
David_D wrote:
Lewian wrote:
David_D wrote:
1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%
That's a pretty tough one. It'll rule out most albums we have talked about.
Just something to think about, and you have surely more experience to make a more realistic definition, which might be interesting to see.
Well, I'm fine with the one I already have.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:33
Negoba wrote:
I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?
Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.
Yes. That's exactly what i'm presuming. I didn't like it either at first until i invested a great deal of time in unlocking its secrets.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:34
Cristi wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Cristi wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
From https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow - Chris H review of the incredible https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=107357" rel="nofollow - Tago Mago by Can (Krautrock is in general more popular anyywhere else but here)
<div ="avatarhp-"=""> https://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=10545" rel="nofollow"> ...Hmmm, this listen was uhhh interesting? Let me start from the beginning here. I had heard
the track "Bring Me Coffee or Tea" off of somewhere, I can't remember at the moment, but I actually rather liked it. So one day I was poking around some bargain bins, and lo and behold here it was. I bought it for $2.50, and popped it in the stereo. It couldn't have been 10 minutes before my mother comes up and says "What is this crap?". I couldn't agree more Mom! This has to take the cake for the most pointless album ever made. Ever. "Peking O" and "Mushroom" are two of the stupidest, pointless songs I have ever heard...
that's a review?! And here i thought I was bad at it. (ffs )
That's not a review, it's a pointless rant. Another person who doesn't get it and has a hissy fit about an album beyond his / her comprehension.
well, it is a review it seems. I think some people just forget it's not just what you say (that matters), it's how you say it it's just as important.
No it’s not a review. It conveys absolutely nothing about the album just the listeners inability to process it
if it's not a review, report it, tell the admins to get rid of it.
You can argue it's a poorly written, useless review and I'd agree.
I honestly don't care enough to waste my time. Pisspoor reviews only reflect the integrity of the person posting them.
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:41
My take on "divisive" albums is that an album didn't sound like a favorite that came before.
That meaning it deviated significantly from what the listener expected RATHER THAN judging the album on its own merit.
On some albums in the prog realm for example, the artists presumed the audience was keeping up with them musically and intellectually and found there was a glass ceiling that didn't realize.
Divisive albums such as TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS seem to divide musicians and non-musicians.
Nothing new of course, bands like Gnidrolog faced this same dilemma.
Nothing wrong with anybody not liking any album of course.
It's all personal but to call an album crap because you don't get it is another thing.
I hate Genesis' Foxtrot and Nursery Cryme for the most part but i realize many people love these albums and i'm the one who doesn't get it.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 17:45
I recognize there are albums that I love that other people hate or just don't get why I like so much, that's the beauty of opinions, this is probably sacrelige, but one of my favorite albums is 'Hotel California', heck, it's probably my favorite album. I LOVE prog rock (obiously) yet I'm not a Genesis fan, yet I respect that they've all got incredible talent, I'm just not a fan, I'm just here to hear other people's unpopular opinions
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:14
Is admitting I'm a huge Eagles fan and owning all their albums on vinyl going to get me banned from prog archives? I hope not
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:25
People have been beheaded for less.
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:27
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Frets N Worries wrote:
I think Larks' Tongues in Aspic is a bit overrated, yes.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
Heresy! I consider it one of the best albums ever recorded, of any genre. My offering would have been "The Lamb." Some creative editing would have made it more cogent & powerful.
Here, worship The King!
------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:36
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Albums are divisive for one simple reason. Some people GET IT and some don't.
You have to have the musical ability to comprehend the intention of the artist at hand.
I've found many of the most divisive albums are actually some of the best musical expressions to be heard.
Tales From Topographic Oceans is the perfect example.
Brilliant in every way but not instant gratification for those unwilling to dig deeper.
This has always been the case whether it be jazz, 20th century classical or any musical expression.
Over the years i've seen the ratings for many of these divisive albums rise as people catch up to the artists' visions.
THis probably sounds snobbish but you can't comprehend calculus if you haven't mastered basic algebra :)
Interesting but a lot of people find it uninspired and lacking the same punch, ideas or invention that was evident on Close To The Edge. It also felt very much like Howe/Anderson project rather than something everyone in the band was invested in. Even Rick Wakeman had his reservations and thought that the 4 x 20 minute strict format was just too 'artificial' resulting in the music padded out to fill the times. That's not how great music is created imo. So I don't think people are incorrect in their views or fail to understand what good music is about necessarily. It may not actually be that good when it comes down to it. However its almost notorious status has lead it to almost be the most famous prog album ever made and even non prog fans are aware of its existence!
My feeling is that it probably could have been better. The next album Relayer was better because it seemed to make the best of everyone's talents. White could 'smash' up a kit as well as anyone and Moraz was well suited to the more technical approach they adopted. Why they didn't build on this puzzles me, possibly the determination to get the now more famous Wakeman back into the band by Brian Lane was a factor but I haven't looked into it that deeply.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 18:59
I've got a first pressing of Tales, it sounds amazing, however... I do think the Steven Wilson Remix was an improvement
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:01
^ that's a great point. When certain individuals take control over the project it can rub people the wrong way. I don't engage in the bureaucracy so to speak. I just find it a brilliant album ( but not always so). It's an album that requires more investment than what came before. I get why many don't like it but as someone who didn't initially i can also see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:09
Perhaps another reason why I like Tales is it was the first record i've bought withouth actually listening to anything off of it first. I found a very nice copy for about $17, ordered it, listened to it, and was blown away. Sometimes it's ok to judge a book by it's cover. The original album was amazing, but was lacking in production value in some spots, so when Steven Wilson remixed it, it just made everything sound clearer, I had also just gotten wisdom teeth out, and had a ton of pain meds in me, so maybe that had something to do with it.
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:20
^ that's also a great point. Sometimes i find a remastered album the ticket to the brilliance intended!
In other cases it doesn't matter or diminishes. A crap shoot!
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 19:34
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Negoba wrote:
I also dislike Tago Mago. Are you assuming I can't understand or process it?
Ash Ra Tempel's debut is one of my favorite all time albums, BTW.
Yes. That's exactly what i'm presuming. I didn't like it either at first until i invested a great deal of time in unlocking its secrets.
I've spent a fair bit of time with it as well. It just doesn't connect with me. Which is fine. There are so many factors that go into what resonates with one individual and what doesn't.
Maybe I'm missing some sarcasm.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 20:29
How about this:
1. at least 30% 5 stars
2. at least 20% 1-2 stars
3. minimum 300 ratings
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Hugh Manatee
Date Posted: May 08 2023 at 20:59
It seems to me that divisive albums are those that play with peoples expectations or preconcieved notions. On the one hand we have some one who buys an album after hearing one track and is disappointed that the rest of the album doesn't stir the same response. On the other hand we have someone who buys an album and is disappointed that it isn't representetive of the sound they have come to expect from that particular artist.
Probably the most divisive albums are those that have picked up strong followings over the years, that newcomers have a problem undertanding the attraction to. This for me is understandable. After all, these albums have sat in peoples lives for decades in some cases, and it is hard to replicate those accumulated emotions by anyone on their first listen. So the initial reaction is most likely "I don't see what all the fuss is about."
Then of course there are the contrarians.
Music is all about emotions and can be a love-hate thing at times. So, these divisive albums may be either loved or hated, but they do have a way of stimulating the thought process, especially when it comes to justifying an opinion.
------------- I should have been a pair of ragged claws Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 01:03
David_D wrote:
If to be quite serious about this "divisive" stuff, I'd say:
4-5 stars - "likes"
1-2 stars - "dislikes"
an album is "divisive" when ratings are:
1. likes% circa equal to dislikes%
2. likes + dislikes = at least 60% of all ratings
3. minimum 300 persons have rated
But that might be too serious.
The
reason this doesn't really work (imo), is that on places such as PA, RYM,
Sputnikmusic etc... where everyone with an account can rate an album, is
that the lion's share of raters are fans of the band to begin with. I
know perfectly well what I think of certain ELP, Dream Theater... Marillion-albums, but I've only rated one album from all three of them (Brain Salad Surgery). Long before I finished say Images and Words, I've just stopped. By then I know there's no hope in hell we're gonna connect. It would still be unfair to rate an album I've listened to less than 1/3rd of. So I don't. But I've rated other typically divisive albums such as Trout Mask Replica, Zeit, Tago Mago, Tales, Passion Play, The Seer... maybe Hellfire (by Black Midi). As I care more to begin with - and feel more qualified to have an opinion. I still know Zeit and Tago Mago are quite divisive, although it doesn't really show that clearly using yours-or Lewians statistics. They are both typically more popular outside of PA as well. While Wobbler, Harmonium, Bacamarte, Anglagard... who ticks all the right prog rock-boxes are PA heavyweights compared to those, while more obscure elsewhere.
Btw: a candidate that feels relevant is Radiohead's Kid A (placed 1st for it's year of release, and an all time 6th on RYM). Arguely the biggest (semi)active progressive band on the planet, but easy to find people reacting like http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=329657" rel="nofollow - overmatic :
Wow, when I thought I had seen it all... I don't know what happened to this band after OK Computer,
but something did. Just like Talk Talk before they thought they could succeed in trying something
new. The problem is, new isn't always good, and with this album the results were catastrophic.
The
album is monophonic, monotonous and uninspired. All the progressive
traces of earlier albums were thrown in the garbage, and we are left
with plain boring repetition. Also, what happened to their lyrics? But
if all that wasn't enough, just one more argument to disqualify this
terrible album, the total absence of melodies.
Anyway, I can't believe how they can manage to continue fooling people into buying that what they
are doing has the smallest resemblance of competent music.
-
-and I know quite a few active membere here largely agrees with all of this. They are all wrong of course:)
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 01:08
I assume we're talking divisive amongst prog fans and not music fans in general. But even then, there's a difference between something being divisive here on PA, and divisive in the broader prog community.
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 01:41
Awesoreno wrote:
I assume we're talking divisive amongst prog fans and not music fans in general. But even then, there's a difference between something being divisive here on PA, and divisive in the broader prog community.
I'm talking about divisive prog albums. And only that. Most who's got a relation to divisive prog albums are probably prog fans to an extent anyway. I do I find outside perspectives more interesting than just being in a bubble. But you can have your perspective and I can have mine.
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 02:51
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Undoubtedly, </span>The YES Album<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> that's been the Big Generator</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> of the most controversy over the years is Tales from Topographic Oceans</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">. YES</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">, it's a long double album with four long Yessongs, </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">which was treated as something of a rotten Tormato </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">by the cynical music press, but if you Open Your Eyes</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">, you'll gain The Keys to Ascension</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> and realise what a classic album this is. The album came Close to the Edge</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> of splitting the band up, when there was a Magnification</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> of tensions within the group with so many Fragile</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> egos at stake. In the ensuing [COLOR=red]Drama</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;], Time and a Word[/COLOR]</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> has it that Rick Wakeman threatened to walk out during the recording of the album. The album climbed The Ladder</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> of success though, topping the UK album charts for two weeks. Rick Wakeman left the band and didn't appear on the following Relayer</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> album. There was Talk</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> of a re-Union</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">, but Heaven & Earth</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> had to be moved to persuade Rick to return for the Going for the One</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> album in 1977. The best-selling YES</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> album of all time though, released in 1983, was famously named after its catalogue number, 90125. </span>
I like it. Can someone explain to me why where. Having a pop at progressive rock albums. In fact any music for that matter. Theses musicians I’m going to mention have their fair share of haters here. Guy Manning, The Tangent and Parallel Or 90 Degrees
------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake."
Music Is Live
Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed.
Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… <
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 03:19
Lewian wrote:
Looking at typical percentages I'd say that a divisive album should at least have 20% 5 star ratings and at least 10% 2 or 1 star ....
Sorry, I didn't really notice this.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 04:35
Lewian wrote:
Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, ....
I won't say, I agree with that, but PA users seem definitely to be more generous than RYM raters of Progressive Rock.
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 06:04
But what interesting can be said about divisive albums, as there's surely something special about them?
------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 06:15
Lewian wrote:
Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, ....
I don't think so, 4 star means essential album so if everything gets 4 stars, it means everything is essential.
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 06:59
I've thought of an album I consider at least, Divisive, 'Starless and Bible Black' now, this may be a controversial opinion, but I do not like this album, maybe I need to listen to it a 5th time, but it's just never clicked for me.
------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow.
Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time...
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:00
Frets N Worries wrote:
I've thought of an album I consider at least, Divisive, 'Starless and Bible Black' now, this may be a controversial opinion, but I do not like this album, maybe I need to listen to it a 5th time, but it's just never clicked for me.
so how is the album divisive?
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:13
Cristi wrote:
Lewian wrote:
Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, ....
I don't think so, 4 star means essential album so if everything gets 4 stars, it means everything is essential.
I think it's more the case that most people rate and review albums they like as opposed to albums they don't.
I am utterly amazed at how many quality 4 star albums exist.
There's nothing wrong with too much essential music!
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:16
Cristi wrote:
Lewian wrote:
Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, ....
I don't think so, 4 star means essential album so if everything gets 4 stars, it means everything is essential.
Looking at my collection and the inverse of essential, i.e. how many albums I could do without, I'm not surprised there are so many 4 star albums. My Precioussss.
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:25
Clearly, judging from the diverse comments here so far, King Crimson are one of the most divisive prog bands of all time.
If you have The Power to Believe, imagine sailing through treacherous seas In the Wake of Poseidon to a land far far away on one of the world's remote Islands, where the Red-haired man reigns In the Court of the Crimson King. Out on deck on The Night Watch under a Starless and Bible Black sky, you marvel at The Construction of Light in a thunder storm as you hear the Thrak of a lightning bolt in the distance. You play cards to pass the time on the long voyage, but lose again when you realise you can't Beat a hand containing Three of a Perfect Pair. You don't have the Discipline to concentrate at cards against an opponent with eyes darting around like a Lizard who sees everything, so you decide to Beat a retreat down to the galley where the ship's cook serves up an exotic dish of Larks' Tongues in Aspic, washed down with a glass of Red wine. You retire to your cabin and quickly drift off to sleep as the ship continues on its Earthbound voyage...
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:51
Psychedelic Paul wrote:
Clearly, judging from the diverse comments here so far, King Crimson are one of the most divisive prog bands of all time.
If you have The Power to Believe, imagine sailing through treacherous seas In the Wake of Poseidon to a land far far away on one of the world's remote Islands, where the Red-haired man reigns In the Court of the Crimson King. Out on deck on The Night Watch under a Starless and Bible Black sky, you marvel at The Construction of Light in a thunder storm as you hear the Thrak of a lightning bolt in the distance. You play cards to pass the time on the long voyage, but lose again when you realise you can't Beat a hand containing Three of a Perfect Pair. You don't have the Discipline to concentrate at cards against an opponent with eyes darting around like a Lizard who sees everything, so you decide to Beat a retreat down to the galley where the ship's cook serves up an exotic dish of Larks' Tongues in Aspic, washed down with a glass of Red wine. You retire to your cabin and quickly drift off to sleep as the ship continues on its Earthbound voyage...
Paul - I literally just posted that KC have zero devisive albums whereas Radiohead have 5 divisive albums!
You not liking a band does not make them divisive it just puts you out of step with the general population of PA. We already knew this!
------------- Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 07:51
Cristi wrote:
Lewian wrote:
Almost everybody gives 4 stars to almost everything, ....
I don't think so, 4 star means essential album so if everything gets 4 stars, it means everything is essential.
Oodles of folks give 4 star reviews... almost exclusively.
If I rate album 4 star...it means I own it and I love it.
My average rating is around 2.9- 3.0
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: May 09 2023 at 08:10
I have a clear majority of 4 star reviews (and I don't rate much without review) but this rather means that I'm more motivated to review an album I love; it doesn't mean that half of the existing prog music is worth 4 stars for me.