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Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog

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Topic: Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog
Posted By: JD
Subject: Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:15
So this article made me think about Prog and all the sub-genres.
Thoughts?

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/news/the-most-hated-music-genres/ss-AA1dRww3?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=222fd4b429764c378a285a7e592fc038&ei=154#image=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/news/the-most-hated-music-genres/ss-AA1dRww3?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=222fd4b429764c378a285a7e592fc038&ei=154#image=1


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Replies:
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:36
Well they got Glam Rock horribly wrong, they're referencing 80's Hair Metal rather than the 70's bands.

In prog it's probably Avant/RIO or Neo based on which side of the fence you stand.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:39
Symphonic Crossover Canterbury Electronic Space Rock with a tinge of heavy Avant-Math Kraut Zeuhl makes me think that Brutal Neo-Eclectic Raga Jazz-Fusion Metal really rubs me the wrong way.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:40
Avant Prog/RIO - although I don't mind Brazilian Prog.
Tech/Extreme Metal - fetch me the ear defenders.
Zeuhl - I can barely even spell it, never mind listen to it.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:53
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Symphonic Crossover Canterbury Electronic Space Rock with a tinge of heavy Avant-Math Kraut Zeuhl makes me think that Brutal Neo-Eclectic Raga Jazz-Fusion Metal really rubs me the wrong way.

Heretic!



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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 08:55
Any prog-metal that has growling vocals doesn't get my favor, at all.


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:00
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

In prog it's probably Avant/RIO or Neo based on which side of the fence you stand.

I would agree, though currently there seem to be many more Neo/Retro Prog lovers on PA than Avant/RIO fans.

Also, I don't think there's too much praise for the Post Rock subgenre that seems to keep slogging on, somehow. RPI may have worn out its welcome, as well. The mystery of what constitutes an "eclectic" subgenre may also deflect some dilettantes or looky-loos. 



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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: TerLJack
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:13
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Symphonic Crossover Canterbury Electronic Space Rock with a tinge of heavy Avant-Math Kraut Zeuhl makes me think that Brutal Neo-Eclectic Raga Jazz-Fusion Metal really rubs me the wrong way.

This.


Posted By: Octopus II
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:19
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Any prog-metal that has growling vocals doesn't get my favor, at all.

This for me as well.


Posted By: yogev
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:28
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Avant Prog/RIO - although I don't mind Brazilian Prog.

emmmmm RIO stands for "Rock In Opposition". It has nothing to do with the brazilian culture. I don't know if you were joking or not but yeahhhhh.


Posted By: Starjet
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:37
I don't hate the label Progressive Metal, but it irks me how some bands are assigned this label, but others are merely classed as "Power Metal" therefore having no listing on this database, even though the two genres often overlap or are even mutually interchangeable.

A concrete example: Labyrinth are on this site under Prog Metal, but Vision Divine, a band led by the leader of Labyrinth, Olaf Thorsen, is not. I consider Vision Divine to have more prog elements in their music than Labyrinth.


Posted By: bardberic
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 09:55
Originally posted by Starjet Starjet wrote:

I don't hate the label Progressive Metal, but it irks me how some bands are assigned this label, but others are merely classed as "Power Metal" therefore having no listing on this database, even though the two genres often overlap or are even mutually interchangeable.

A concrete example: Labyrinth are on this site under Prog Metal, but Vision Divine, a band led by the leader of Labyrinth, Olaf Thorsen, is not. I consider Vision Divine to have more prog elements in their music than Labyrinth.



I absolutely agree. I pointed out that there needs to be more metal categories earlier for consistency purposes. I proposed "Melodic Metal" to house power metal, symphonic metal, folk metal, melodic death metal, and any other non prog metal bands that are progressive enough for the archives. Basically for the melodic metal acts, as per the name. Epica, Orphaned Land, Ignea, and Aeternam would be good examples for how it should be used.


Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 10:04
No time to waste then no time to hate
i only listen to the musicS i like


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 10:14
Neo prog followed by RIO/avant. I find there's good and bad in every subgenre though.


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 10:25
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Well they got Glam Rock horribly wrong, they're referencing 80's Hair Metal rather than the 70's bands.
Yep, embarrassing. I think he actually means Hair Metal and not Glam Rock. Meaningless to include pop and rock because it could mean anything = nothing. But on point with Post Grunge, Rock Rap (but what about Nu Metal?), EMO, K-pop, Smooth jazz, Country, Dancehall.... Personally I've always been somewhat entertained by the Dubstep I've heard. It's kind of wild, aggressive and out of control in a fun way. I actually love a lot of Disco and a lot of "classic Rap" as well (+ some of the more underground newer stuff). Pop-punk sucks big time too (but I don't even like "real punk" very much). Techno and Gospel can be truly horrible, but nither are all bad. Nigthcore and Crunkcore sound awful, but Chillwave comes across as interesting in his description. He should really have gone for Extreme Metal over the more spesific Death Metal (love a lot of 1st generation DM myself). Metalcore and Black Metal is probably just as unpopular - or more.

I'm amazed he failed to mention Reggaeton. Its music that makes me both angry and depressed. Angry at the way it sounds and depressed knowing that it's probably the biggest genre on the planet right now. At least top three. A Trap beat gets tiresome really fast, but there's nothing quite as annoying as that one Reggaeton "groove" (that doesn't really groove) which is basically in all the songs I've been unwillingly exposed to.

Anyway. From my point of view Neo Prog and the type of clean, theatrical and pretentious Prog Metal that Pain of Salvation, Ayreon, Symphony X and Dream Theater represent - are the most hated prog-subs. Although not something I spend a lot of time listening to, I do find the more experimental/extreme metal bands more interesting.



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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 10:50
Staying on the subject of Reggae and somewhat ironically, I'm a big fan of Christian Reggae band Christafari, so I'd like to wish them a holy Hosanna, even though I'm about as religious as arch-atheist Richard Dawkins who, after suffering a stroke recently, received a prayer and a blessing from the Archbishop of Canterbury himself, which is somewhat ironic too. Smile



Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 11:01
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Staying on the subject of Reggae and somewhat ironically, I'm a big fan of Christian Reggae band Christafari
Reggaeton and Reggae got virtually nothing in common. Except that I'm not very fond of the latter genre either. I deeply regret pressing play on that Christafari-video of yours. I don't know why I did. Christian Reggae band should have been a warning sign big enough.

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Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 11:02
I wouldn't use the word "hate," but rather "difficult to get into." At least for the prog subgenres. I don't really listen to much music outside of prog anymore, so no comments from me about that.

I guess the most difficult elements of prog for me to get into are growling vocals or lengthy ambient/droning kinds of things with little variation. For the former I would prefer if they just made instrumentals. For the latter, a little more variation (like something rhythmic or even a drummer). You can probably guess what subgenres these elements are in, but I'm not going to single out an entire subgenre because there is music I like in both of these subgenres.

On the forums I suppose the most negativity is aimed at avant-prog/RIO and/or neo prog. Just a guess. I have no statistics to back up the claim. Strangely enough, I like lots of stuff from both these subgenres. I could easily listen to something from Present and follow it up with Magenta and enjoy them both. Many years ago I might have not said this. So, I'm happy with the way my tastes have grown as I've gotten older. The more diverse the better.


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that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 11:47
Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 11:56
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Staying on the subject of Reggae and somewhat ironically, I'm a big fan of Christian Reggae band Christafari
Reggaeton and Reggae got virtually nothing in common. Except that I'm not very fond of the latter genre either. I deeply regret pressing play on that Christafari-video of yours. I don't know why I did. Christian Reggae band should have been a warning sign big enough.

I get the feeling somehow that I wouldn't like Reggaeton, but I'm guessing it doesn't sound anything like Bob Marley. Tongue


Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:04
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Staying on the subject of Reggae and somewhat ironically, I'm a big fan of Christian Reggae band Christafari, so I'd like to wish them a holy Hosanna, even though I'm about as religious as arch-atheist Richard Dawkins who, after suffering a stroke recently, received a prayer and a blessing from the Archbishop of Canterbury himself, which is somewhat ironic too. Smile


Would you label this reggae prog, Caribbean,  or something else? 






Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:14
Progressive Electronic for me. The majority of the music in this genre is either repetitive ambient looped arpeggios or weird sound design garbage. Boring stuff (YMMV).


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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:29
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.

I'm waiting with bated breath for SiLLy PuPPy Mike's response to this!



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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:36
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.


I'm waiting with bated breath for SiLLy PuPPy Mike's response to this!



Why should I care what anyone else loves or hates?
I honestly couldn’t care less
I love every prog genre / style/ hybrid
I’m with those who have no time to hate any music
If I don’t connect with it I move on

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:41
^ Oh, come on, you can do better than that. Tongue Wink
I hoped to provoke some reactions - and especially arguments - to defend those genres as prog genres. You must have some of those (arguments)!



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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:52
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

 
If I don’t connect with it I move on

true! Smile


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 12:55
Within Prog circles, I feel like Djent def comes to mind

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...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 13:04
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Within Prog circles, I feel like Djent def comes to mind

not all djent is progressive. 


Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 13:08
That's true, I guess I would say prog metal just based on the fact that many people will be filtered out immediately by harsh vocals. But I would say widely, you could probably convince your average joe on a Ghost Reveries era Opeth song long before you could with a Henry Cow type of band

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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 13:09
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Within Prog circles, I feel like Djent def comes to mind

not all djent is progressive. 

True. Djent is technically under the prog metal umbrella, but many metalcore and deathcore bands have co-opted elements of the sound as well. Veil of Maya, Carnifex, Within the Ruins, etc.


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Won't you take me down, to the underground
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And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life

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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 14:48
I fail to see how one can hate a genre. I don't particularly like Reggae, that's about as far as it goes. 

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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 16:32
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Avant Prog/RIO - although I don't mind Brazilian Prog.
Tech/Extreme Metal - fetch me the ear defenders.
Zeuhl - I can barely even spell it, never mind listen to it.
Those 3 are high on my list of genres I prefer to avoid.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. (the wonderful Bob Newhart)
Ultimately, there's no bad music, just music that doesn't suit your personal taste.


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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 17:51
In prog, I'd say neo-prog and progmetal, but I'd add Math Rock in there as well.

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Well they got Glam Rock horribly wrong, they're referencing 80's Hair Metal rather than the 70's bands.
Yep, embarrassing. I think he actually means Hair Metal and not Glam Rock.


Those Hair Metal bands were also called Glam Metal back then, hence probably their f**k-up


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 19:09
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Oh, come on, you can do better than that. Tongue Wink
I hoped to provoke some reactions - and especially arguments - to defend those genres as prog genres. You must have some of those (arguments)!



The time i could spend arguing with you is time i could spend listening to some nasty ugly extreme experimental metal that would make 99% of even metalheads cringe. haha


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 21:17
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Any prog-metal that has growling vocals doesn't get my favor, at all.

I agree.  I can tolerate most anything else but that.  Ugh.


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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 14 2023 at 21:31
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Well they got Glam Rock horribly wrong, they're referencing 80's Hair Metal rather than the 70's bands.


That's the truth!!  I learned a few things from that article, but most of it was pretty bad. 

From ChatGPT:

Glam rock, also known as glitter rock, is a music genre that emerged in the early 1970s, primarily in the United Kingdom. It was characterized by a unique blend of music, fashion, and theatricality. Glam rock artists aimed to create a flamboyant and extravagant image, often incorporating elements of glamor, androgyny, and rebellion.

Musically, glam rock drew inspiration from various genres such as rock and roll, pop, and rhythm and blues. It featured catchy melodies, energetic guitar riffs, and a strong emphasis on showmanship. The sound of glam rock often included prominent use of electric guitars, driving rhythms, and theatrical vocals.

Glam rock artists often wore elaborate and androgynous costumes, with glittery or sequined outfits, makeup, and hairstyles. They challenged traditional gender norms and pushed boundaries with their androgynous appearance. Some notable glam rock artists include David Bowie, T. Rex, Roxy Music, Slade, Sweet, and Queen.

The glam rock movement had a significant impact on popular culture, influencing subsequent musical genres such as punk rock, new wave, and glam metal. It was a celebration of individuality, self-expression, and rebellion, and its influence can still be seen and heard in modern music and fashion.



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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 15 2023 at 01:11
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I fail to see how one can hate a genre. I don't particularly like Reggae, that's about as far as it goes. 
I think very few walks around actively hating on music genres. But I can most certainly respond/react to music both disgust and yes something that resembles hate. There's a difference between hating Nazis and "hating pineapple on your pizza" though. Just like loving your children and loving the smell of coffee represent different kinds of loving. 


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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: July 15 2023 at 01:32
I assume the OP is asking us about what we think is/are the most disliked prog sub-genre(s) in general, not which one any of us particularly doesn't like.


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 15 2023 at 06:04
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

I assume the OP is asking us about what we think is/are the most disliked prog sub-genre(s) in general, not which one any of us particularly doesn't like.

I think the generally most hated prog subgenre is..... progressive rock. xD People who hate prog in one form or another don't even bother to subcategorize it. :D


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Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 15 2023 at 07:20
Krautrock

It's name actually suggests it hates itself anywayWink


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 16 2023 at 12:55
Back in the early 1970s, some in the USA referred to many subgenera as "Theater Rock."  

This video certainly shows why!  


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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: mellotronwave
Date Posted: July 16 2023 at 13:44
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Back in the early 1970s, some in the USA referred to many subgenera as "Theater Rock."  

This video certainly shows why!  


Yep,




Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: July 16 2023 at 18:42
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

I assume the OP is asking us about what we think is/are the most disliked prog sub-genre(s) in general, not which one any of us particularly doesn't like.

this.

And I think it's Neo-Prog. I've always wondered why Neo is hated so much, for being nOt pRoG eNoUgH?


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 16 2023 at 21:30
Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.

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ProgressiveArtExperimentalMusicArchives: Your ultimate progressive, art, experimental music resource.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:12
^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:28
Turning things around, these are my ten most-loved sub-genres of prog

01. Symphonic Prog
02. Neo Prog
03. Prog Folk
04. Psychedelic/Space Rock
05. Proto Prog
06. Crossover Prog 
07. Krautrock
08. Heavy Prog
09. Jazz Rock/Fusion
10. Progressive Electronic


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:35
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres.
Is that how you think about all music-genres in general, or for prog-genres exclusively?
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre.

If it just goes with the genre, that sounds like a bad genre to me.
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).
I think we all focus on that, except for when we're posting our opinions under the topic "Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog"





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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 04:21
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.

Excellent trolling skills! Well, fortunately your "if" assumption is wrong.


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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:01
^ Thank you. But as long as you don't give anything to counter my "if" I will continue to cherish my prejudice...


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The razamataz is a pain in the bum


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:37
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.  

Pretty much where I am, nice post. 

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).

I don't the first part of this is true when it comes to personal tastes, which after all is what we are talking here. If the fundamental building blocks of the genre don't appeal to you then you are unlikely to like even the albums that are considered 'great' within the genre. If I check out Contemporary Country or Dance Pop I am not going to find anything I like.

The second part is certainly true, though I do think that some people who dislike avant assume they are playing sloppily when in fact it can be deliberate but still grating/aggravating. Though there is plenty of sloppy poor playing within the genre. It's just not always easy to tell the difference to those outside the genre. It's the classic complaint of free jazz, its just a bunch of people playing what the hell they like irrespective of what the other band members are playing, and, one mistake is an error, two mistakes is jazz.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:40
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Any prog-metal that has growling vocals doesn't get my favor, at all.

This . . .


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:41
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Back in the early 1970s, some in the USA referred to many subgenera as "Theater Rock."  

This video certainly shows why!  

Yep, and LOVED it!!!


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Welcome to the middle of the film.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:13
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I don't the first part of this is true when it comes to personal tastes, which after all is what we are talking here. If the fundamental building blocks of the genre don't appeal to you then you are unlikely to like even the albums that are considered 'great' within the genre. If I check out Contemporary Country or Dance Pop I am not going to find anything I like.

Sure, everyone's free to like or dislike whatever they want. But *to me* there are no bad genres. I can probably find something I like even within Contemporary Country, even though I have no inclination to try right now Wink


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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:47
This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:49
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.

By young you mean under 50?


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:50
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.

By young you mean under 50?

Hi. Ha ha ha . No mate. I meant under 20-25 


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 10:11
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


The problems comes from not being able to multiply tag albums individually. I think anyone savvy enough can cross reference from other sources or check out a music sample to verify what a genre of any album is. That's what i do.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 11:32
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.

Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

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ProgressiveArtExperimentalMusicArchives: Your ultimate progressive, art, experimental music resource.


Posted By: edefakiel
Date Posted: July 17 2023 at 11:49
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Progressive Electronic for me. The majority of the music in this genre is either repetitive ambient looped arpeggios or weird sound design garbage. Boring stuff (YMMV).

I think only 70's progressive electronic was like that. The new stuff is pretty well produced and thought provoking in my humble opinion.




Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 07:00
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


The problems comes from not being able to multiply tag albums individually. I think anyone savvy enough can cross reference from other sources or check out a music sample to verify what a genre of any album is. That's what i do.
Yes . I agreed BUT I talked about PA.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 07:22
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

I love everything Neal Morse is doing, but being not religious at all I think I know what you mean. As you said, fortunately there are musical antidotes for that ...



Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.


Yes, in some genres the cards are kind of stacked against positive outcomes ... 

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Yes, the Avant section is pretty much a grab-bag for weirdness for the sake of being weird, with the odd exception here and there. A lot of really, really awesome stuff, but also a lot of fluff that might sound intriguing to people coming from non-prog genres, but once you've heard a thousand albums, you develop an ear for substance ...

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

The Flower Kings ... I love them, but their discography is really flaky. A lot of it is quite prog-by-style (as you might know, that's what I called one of my tags for assessing prog level at TYM), or you could even say prog-by-numbers. But some of it is great IMHO. Of their recent releases, I really liked By Royal Decree.


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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:12

I'm not much for "hating" but Neo-Prog is not exactly my cup of tea due to rather much Pop-influence, synthetic sound, 
and beginning with typically "poppish" artwork. 


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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:32
^^ I like me some heavy music, thanks for the Celtic Frost, Mike. Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again. She wasn't much of a believer, but I grew up with the Anglican Church (Church of England). My wife was Pentecostal (we learned not to talk religion), and she was never really preachy and always was much more "liberal" than her old friends from the church (maybe I provided an out). Her church seriously creeped me out and concerned me.   Where I live the signs of religion increase significantly every year, which I find sad and makes me want to move (if it were not for the ludicrously high cost of housing in my region, this would not me first choice anyway. I waited too long to get into the market -- when my son graduates high school, then I hope to move). I love going to the temples in Japan, so I am not all against religion, and I have by biases. I'd be happy to see lots of beautiful temples with beautiful gardens springing up where I live; make this little Kyoto as Kyoto and its surrounding regions is where I have felt most like I belong. Anyway, I do have something of a phobia when it comes to religions generally, but I have an attraction to religion as well even when I see it as irrational. And I have liked to visit lots of historical religious architecture in Europe and Asia. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another theism vs. atheism, secular vs religious thread

I have liked what I heard of The Royal Decree too. Good for them. I have preferred what I know of its recent music to its more classic stuff. I'm nowhere near as down on TFK as I once was -- like with Spock's Beard (which I have liked some music from), and Transatlantic, I bought a TFK album blind (got all of those at the same time) about twenty years ago based on recommendations and it was just not what I wanted. It was me then purchasing a Miriodor album based on me coming across a short music sample, and then getting U Totem that "saved" the modern Prog for me. That was what I wanted in my music then.

On another note, even within genres that generally are not for me, and bands with much music, when I have put in the effort and asked for recommendations, I have found music to like so I gnerally don;t like to be down on genres (there are some genres I dislike much of partially for ideological reasons -- I don't appreciate the message). There's actually plenty of Neo-Prog that I have appreciated even though I know it will never be up there with, say, Krautrock for me. If there are some Neo-Proggy bands that mix that style with a significant Krautrock influence (Can, Neu!, Faust, Harmonia etc.) I might like that and it could provide a gateway for me into the more Neo-Prog acts.

This, by the way, Brave, not Marillion's, or I should say The Brave, is my most disliked album I actually listened to all the way from last year (listenable and I have heard much worse).







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Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 11:40
For me the core sub-genres of prog (which form the bulk of my collection) are: Canterbury Scene, Crossover Prog, Eclectic Prog, Heavy Prog, Prog Folk, Progressive Electronic, Psychedelic/Space Rock, Symphonic Prog

Anything else I can pretty much take or leave, with most Avant/RIO and Zheul being pretty much unlistenable to my ears, and never normally going anywhere near the metal sub genres.


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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."

Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2


Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: July 18 2023 at 15:47
I just really dislike anything metal-based. I just cannot see the appeal? Each to their own I suppose…..


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 01:03
Ok, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL. No one is asking us to list any of our least favorite genres INDIVIDUALLY.

If we're talkin on the forums here, one would have to look at the extremes. Neo and RIO get he most hate from the different ends of the spectrum. 

If we're talking outside the forums and more in the general eclectic music-listening sphere, that's a more complicated question.


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 01:38
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Ok, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL. No one is asking us to list any of our least favorite genres INDIVIDUALLY.
I think most of us understand that. But the answers you get will be based of personal preference in combination with personal experience anyway. What else can you expect? My impression is that Neo Prog (and Prog Metal) is the most hated - or disliked. Unsurprisingly I "and everyone I know" strongly dislike everything Neo too. Others, in their experience will feel that it's RIO/Avant. Partly because they can't stand it themselves. It's hard to avoid.


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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 05:47
Quote k, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL.
Personally, I can only speak for myself tbh.


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Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie!


Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 06:58
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^ I like me some heavy music, thanks for the Celtic Frost, Mike. Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again. She wasn't much of a believer, but I grew up with the Anglican Church (Church of England). My wife was Pentecostal (we learned not to talk religion), and she was never really preachy and always was much more "liberal" than her old friends from the church (maybe I provided an out). Her church seriously creeped me out and concerned me.   Where I live the signs of religion increase significantly every year, which I find sad and makes me want to move (if it were not for the ludicrously high cost of housing in my region, this would not me first choice anyway. I waited too long to get into the market -- when my son graduates high school, then I hope to move). I love going to the temples in Japan, so I am not all against religion, and I have by biases. I'd be happy to see lots of beautiful temples with beautiful gardens springing up where I live; make this little Kyoto as Kyoto and its surrounding regions is where I have felt most like I belong. Anyway, I do have something of a phobia when it comes to religions generally, but I have an attraction to religion as well even when I see it as irrational. And I have liked to visit lots of historical religious architecture in Europe and Asia. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another theism vs. atheism, secular vs religious thread

......





Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 10:35
Yeah....hates a strong word but I dislike these for the most part.....
Tech extreme prog metal
Prog metal
Exp post metal
Post rock math rock


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 11:18
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....


Thanks you so much, it means a lot. Sadly, this kind of grief is par for the course and it is in these times that many people turn to religion for comfort.

I feel so bad about Iran's situation. My best friend was Persian (born Muslim, dad was an ambassador before Khomeini) and I had lots of Persian people who were very close to me -- Vancouver has a significant Persian population.   With my friends and my parents friends, their families fled when the Ayatollah Khomeini took power. I was so sickened by the news here when women were being treated so inhumanely for not wanting to be forced to wear the hijab in Iran, that to balance the news they had other women talking about the "freedom" of wearing the hijab. And of course I am sickened about the penalties and persecution that many ex-Muslims have faced. I have heard from various Christians about the extreme intolerance of the non-believers, and of course you find those, but the most dangerous intolerance I have found is largely from the believers. We're in a strange society where many also have become very tolerant of the intolerant and if not religious think it is racist (for some reason) or phobic to be critical of certain religions. And I know someone who was born into a Jehovah's Witnesses family and having stated that she doesn't believe in it, she was shunned and pushed out by her family. And of course the apostates are in mortal danger in places.

As for this topic, as said, from my experience, it has been Neo-Prog and Prog Metal, and Avant-Prog and Zeuhl next to that. Indo-Prog/Raga Rock has got many negative comments, but mostly, sadly, it's ignored. Krautock gets negativity mostly for the name. Some hate that the classifications we use here, and that's another issue. I never thought of, say, Eclectic Prog as a genre, it's a category we use to organise things. If we used multi-tagging, I very much doubt we would have that or Crossover Prog.

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ProgressiveArtExperimentalMusicArchives: Your ultimate progressive, art, experimental music resource.


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 15:00
^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...




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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 15:14
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...




Oh God, sorry, force of habit, I dislike Jordan Peterson (maybe with more digging I would like something by him.) He's quite focused on Jungian archetypes as I recall, and he got a fame as cause célèbre, along with some other professors/ instructors. I joined Sam Harris forum (that grew out of Project Reason) for a short time explaining what I did not like about Peterson or the discussion in his podcast with him. While I used to listen to Sam Harris' podcast "religiously" (discovered him because of Hitchens, so wish he was still around, and Dawkins) but I then stopped mostly after the podcasts became subscriber content. Also some of his associations like Brett Weinstein put a bad taste in my mouth (or maybe that was the horse urine).

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ProgressiveArtExperimentalMusicArchives: Your ultimate progressive, art, experimental music resource.


Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 16:02
Jordan Peterson is an alt-right grifter, disgraced "scientist" and much like similar figures like Musk seems to make it his only goal in life to spread as much backwards, transphobic, climate-change-denying, misanthropic, "traditional/masculine values" bullsh*t online as he can to impress on naive young boys who look up to him because he sells them the both idea and the solution to the notion that they aren't allowed to be masculine in today's world. Either stay as far away from him as you can, or, if you're morbidly curious, take whatever he tells you and do/believe the exact opposite. He's definitely in the worst sub-genre of human life.


Posted By: altered_beast
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 19:49
At least Progressive Rock Boy Bands don’t exist. If they did I know what I would have something extra to hate.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 20:03
Originally posted by altered_beast altered_beast wrote:

At least Progressive Rock Boy Bands don’t exist. If they did I know what I would have something extra to hate.


Lucky thing The Beatles are in Proto-Prog as they are sometimes known as the first or an early boy band.

That said, there is Bacamarte Boys, Neu! Kids Crimson on the Block, One Shot Direction, and of course Meshuggah... If one considers Meshuggah Progressive Rock, that is.



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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 19 2023 at 23:44
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...




Oh God, sorry, force of habit, I dislike Jordan Peterson (maybe with more digging I would like something by him.) He's quite focused on Jungian archetypes as I recall, and he got a fame as cause célèbre, along with some other professors/ instructors. I joined Sam Harris forum (that grew out of Project Reason) for a short time explaining what I did not like about Peterson or the discussion in his podcast with him. While I used to listen to Sam Harris' podcast "religiously" (discovered him because of Hitchens, so wish he was still around, and Dawkins) but I then stopped mostly after the podcasts became subscriber content. Also some of his associations like Brett Weinstein put a bad taste in my mouth (or maybe that was the horse urine).

I really discovered Atheism through the four horsemen (Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris) in the early 2000s. Today I strongly dislike Harris because of his dogmatic pursuit of political goals, which he mixes with atheism/rationality in a really pathetic way (pretending that it's the only rational way to think about things). 

Jordan Peterson - I don't agree with every single argument he makes, obviously. But especially in the last couple of years he has been one of the more prominent actual voices of reason in many topics (gender ideology, socialism, general injustice in political systems etc..). This is one of the best videos I would recommend to check out Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJrEaLYacwc&ab_channel=JordanBPeterson" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJrEaLYacwc&ab_channel=JordanBPeterson


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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 00:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again.
Sorry for your loss, Greg.




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Posted By: Progishness
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 05:16
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Lucky thing The Beatles are in Proto-Prog as they are sometimes known as the first or an early boy band.


That really annoys me as in my book the term 'boy band' refers to a bunch of vocalist pretty boys, put together by the industry, who generally don't write their own songs nor play any instruments.

The Beatles were way more than that - they were a pop/rock band, singers and song writers, knew how to get the best out of their instruments (jokes about Ringo's drumming ignored), with an ever evolving style, and with the help of an innovative producer created a sound that has influenced just about every aspiring rock band since. Not to mention embracing psychedelia and helping to lay the foundations of what would become prog.

How many of the current or former 'boy bands' will be remembered in 50 years times for being major music influencers in 50+ years time?


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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 06:42
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....


Thanks you so much, it means a lot. Sadly, this kind of grief is par for the course and it is in these times that many people turn to religion for comfort.

I feel so bad about Iran's situation. My best friend was Persian (born Muslim, dad was an ambassador before Khomeini) and I had lots of Persian people who were very close to me -- Vancouver has a significant Persian population.   With my friends and my parents friends, their families fled when the Ayatollah Khomeini took power. I was so sickened by the news here when women were being treated so inhumanely for not wanting to be forced to wear the hijab in Iran, that to balance the news they had other women talking about the "freedom" of wearing the hijab. And of course I am sickened about the penalties and persecution that many ex-Muslims have faced. I have heard from various Christians about the extreme intolerance of the non-believers, and of course you find those, but the most dangerous intolerance I have found is largely from the believers. We're in a strange society where many also have become very tolerant of the intolerant and if not religious think it is racist (for some reason) or phobic to be critical of certain religions. And I know someone who was born into a Jehovah's Witnesses family and having stated that she doesn't believe in it, she was shunned and pushed out by her family. And of course the apostates are in mortal danger in places.

As for this topic, as said, from my experience, it has been Neo-Prog and Prog Metal, and Avant-Prog and Zeuhl next to that. Indo-Prog/Raga Rock has got many negative comments, but mostly, sadly, it's ignored. Krautock gets negativity mostly for the name. Some hate that the classifications we use here, and that's another issue. I never thought of, say, Eclectic Prog as a genre, it's a category we use to organise things. If we used multi-tagging, I very much doubt we would have that or Crossover Prog.

Thanks so so much for your time .

About this topic : Neo Prog is not an obvious and clear in PA. A wide range of bands with completely different visions , musicality , and style labeled as Neo Prog.
I never got why Marillion post-Fish is Neo Prog when we faced with bands like IQ , Arena and ... IMO Neo Prog is one of the sub genes that must change or deform eventually ....


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 09:17
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Lucky thing The Beatles are in Proto-Prog as they are sometimes known as the first or an early boy band.


That really annoys me as in my book the term 'boy band' refers to a bunch of vocalist pretty boys, put together by the industry, who generally don't write their own songs nor play any instruments.
Yep. I think The Beatles has only jokingly hes been referred to as the first boy band, really. The Monkees were factually the first actual boy band. Chosen from auditions, and put together by two TV producers for The Monkees TV-series - and originally not allowed to play instruments or write their own songs (although they certainly weren't without talent). 
Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

How many of the current or former 'boy bands' will be remembered in 50 years times for being major music influencers in 50+ years time?

Hard to tell. As music influencers none of them will be remembered. But The Monkees aren't forgotten. Some "contemporary" boy band-songs might be remembered in similar ways as I'm a Believer, I'm Not Your Stepping Stone and Daydream Believer is remembered. If the song material is strong enough, people in the future won't care how the song came about. Boy bands, Britney Spears - there's not much of a difference really. Both are pop-products. That said, there hasn't been a lot of profilic boy bands in the last couple of decades, has there? I guess One Direction & BTS... 

+btw I think Ringo Starr is/was a great drummer.


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Posted By: SMSM
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 10:40
Avant Prog/RIO 

Tech/Extreme Metal 

Zeuhl 

Like the Jazz equivalent, you have to be as talented as John Coltrane, as in Ascension, to play it well without it sounding irritating, which most don't

Progressive Metal, got cliched/boring very fast, especially the drumming 


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: July 20 2023 at 11:41
Originally posted by SMSM SMSM wrote:

Avant Prog/RIO 

Tech/Extreme Metal 

Zeuhl 

The exact same three least-loved prog genres for me too. Smile


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 25 2023 at 11:11
Originally posted by Starjet Starjet wrote:

A concrete example: Labyrinth are on this site under Prog Metal, but Vision Divine, a band led by the leader of Labyrinth, Olaf Thorsen, is not. I consider Vision Divine to have more prog elements in their music than Labyrinth.

Neither should be here on PA if you ask me. LOL


Posted By: Dapper~Blueberries
Date Posted: September 25 2023 at 12:35
I don't there I have a "hated" prog genre since I pretty much love all of them, but if there is one that definitely took me a while to get into, its definitely brutal prog. Groups like Ruins, black midi, P.O.N., and Hella, while great, definitely took me a while to truly love. 

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D~B


Posted By: Boojieboy
Date Posted: September 25 2023 at 13:51
It's a tie between Prog Country and Prog Rap. 

LOL


Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: September 25 2023 at 14:33
Anything with cookie monster vocals is an automatic 'no' for me.   

Other than a few scary things I've heard in the Post Rock/Math Rock subgenre, that's about it.


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 18:48
If Marillion had growling vocals, that would just about cover most of my dislikes. 

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Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 19:42
It'd be interesting to hear something like Prog Rap, Prog Country, Prog R&B, Prog Ambient, Prog Blues, etc. 

Not sure some of those could exist, but hey, it could work


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'Cause it's only knock and know all, but I like it...

Working on a New Album, might be one huge track | https://atmosprog.bandcamp.com/album/atmos-i" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 19:48
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

It'd be interesting to hear something like Prog Rap, Prog Country, Prog R&B, Prog Ambient, Prog Blues, etc. 

Not sure some of those could exist, but hey, it could work

Some of them actually do... progressive rap and progressive soul are already established (sub)genres, although they weren't recognized as such when those aritsts first started. Progressive soul would cover artists like War, 70s-era Earth Wind & Fire, Seal, Janelle Monae, etc. And Progressive rap would cover artitsts like Madvillain, Kendrick Lamar, M.I.A., and Kool Keith


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Take me down, to the underground
Won't you take me down, to the underground
Why oh why, there is no light
And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life

https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd


Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 19:59
^What about Progressive Ambient? how would that work i wonder....

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'Cause it's only knock and know all, but I like it...

Working on a New Album, might be one huge track | https://atmosprog.bandcamp.com/album/atmos-i" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 20:31
Prog Polka is a bit rough to get used to.....

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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 21:11
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

^What about Progressive Ambient? how would that work i wonder....

Already on PA its just tagged under either 'Progressive electonic' ie Alio Die or oddly 'Crossover' for Gert Emmens.


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: September 26 2023 at 22:12
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Prog Polka is a bit rough to get used to.....


If it's the Weird Al kind of polka, I'd dig it.


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Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie!


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 00:30
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Prog Polka is a bit rough to get used to.....


If it's the Weird Al kind of polka, I'd dig it.

Well said!  I actually met Weird Al in Tulsa, Oklahoma USA when he was auditioning "weird" acts for his offbeat movie "UHF!"  Well, I shook his hand, he seemed very cool!  


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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 00:31
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Prog Polka is a bit rough to get used to.....


If it's the Weird Al kind of polka, I'd dig it.

Well said!  I actually met Weird Al in Tulsa, Oklahoma USA when he was auditioning "weird" acts for his offbeat movie "UHF!"  Well, I shook his hand, he seemed very cool!  

UHF is a classic Big smile


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Take me down, to the underground
Won't you take me down, to the underground
Why oh why, there is no light
And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life

https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd


Posted By: Hector Enrique
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 05:30
Although some bands like Opeth or Mastodon seem to me very good and have albums of high quality, in general the bands of the Tech/Extreme Prog Metal subgenre are difficult to assimilate because of their guttural vocals and their intemperate and hostile instrumental developments. But more than hating the subgenre, I would say that they force a great effort to understand it and not give up trying.


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Héctor Enrique


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 06:08
I like all prog subgenres. I just don't listen to some. LOL

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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 07:20
I love all the subgenres and do listen to all of them.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: September 27 2023 at 07:30
I like eating all the subgenres. The repercussions vary the next day.

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