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Albums and Artists that are Mistagged

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=131476
Printed Date: February 29 2024 at 21:36
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Topic: Albums and Artists that are Mistagged
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Subject: Albums and Artists that are Mistagged
Date Posted: August 14 2023 at 20:21
Great idea from Brufordfreak and a sentiment we ALL share on this site.

In his poll he mentioned starting a poll of albums that are held captive by original categorization

Which albums and artists do you feel are mistagged?

Albums there are literally tons including Porcupine Tree's space rock albums.

Artists there are just as many

Just a few i can think of at the moment

Riverside should be Heavy Prog

Haken should be progressive metal

Magic Pie should be progressive metal

Fantomas is in RIO and they are about as experimental as it gets

Likewise Mr Bungle is as eclectic as it gets but are in RIO

I'm sure we ALL have something to contribute to this list hehe


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy



Replies:
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 14 2023 at 20:54
Too many to mention, really. I guess that's a problem you'll have to endure, no matter what. Many bands are wrongly classified, Like Jethro Tull as Prog Folk, or Santana as Jazz rock. To be fair, is almost impossible not to categorize a band, song, album etc. only to find out they have other influences that are as strong as the one chosen to identify them with. What I do, and this is a personal preference, is to enjoy the music, and pay no attention to classifications, genres, influences, etc.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 14 2023 at 23:02
I much prefer tagging/ labelling by the album and multi-tagging albums, but given the system PA is stuck with, I would move Frank Zappa out of Avant-Prog and into Eclectic Prog. I also would put Jethro Tull in Eclectic Prog instead of having it in Prog Folk.

There's lot I think that I might move to Eclectic Prog and Crossover.


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: August 14 2023 at 23:18
I regard Jade Warior as Eclectic Prog rather than Psychedelic/Space Rock. Their first album has P/SR qualities, but even then it is more eclectic with its world beat elements. And if you take their career as a whole into account, you end up with a lot of different styles. The main thing to expect with them is the unexpected. Both of which say 'eclectic' to me.

Vangelis is about as symphonic as you can get, although much of his work cannot be categorized strictly as 'rock.'

These are the two that first come to my mind.


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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 00:32
If Prog Related wasn't strictly for rock groups, I would want to see several of the jazz giants on here, particularly Coltrane, Henderson, Hubbard, and most of the other horn players, in there. And Steely Dan/Chicago, but the rules wouldn't have to be changed for them, since they ARE rock groups.


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:35
Sanguine Hum should be Canterbury.

The Psychedelic Ensemble should be Symphonic.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:38
We are faced with the informatics limits on which the database was built upon. Touching the base could ruin everything. Of the little I know of informatics, the PA DB is built upon an Access software of the early 00's.
I remember M@X explaing that toying around or tinkering the software's principle could crumble the whole thing, though I suspect that experimenting on a copy of the DB out of line could be doable.

The way I understand things is that multi-genre belonging involving hyperlinks of the other genres is impossible on the artiste's page and the overall alphabetical list, but I could see extra space being added on album pages to have the descriptors (much like what RYM does). Likewise, I could see it possible (but WTF do I know?) to add a column in the DB/Genre alphabetical order containing secondary genres, but without the hyperlinks towards those secondary genres


Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Fantomas is in RIO and they are about as experimental as it gets

Likewise Mr Bungle is as eclectic as it gets but are in RIO


I'm fine with Bungle & Fantomas as Avant-prog (avant sort of means experimental), as for Tull in Prog Folk, there was a big discussion (to which I sort of agreed)  and I even started a poll whether Tull should be in a different genre : as I totally expected, the massive/overwhelming majority decided it was prog folk.

However, I simply don't get how such an Avant-Prog (or experimental) master like him does in Crossover Prog Wacko Ditto for Bjork in Xover. Shocked She defines experimental, IMHO.




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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:46
All these artists mentioned here can be discussed and possibly getting a new genre tag. Recently the band FM was re-tagged, now it's under crossover. So it can be done. 


Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 04:29
There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.


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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 04:52
I'm good with Fantomas and Bungle in Avant, it's an experimental genre.

I'm not hearing much Canterbury in Sanguine Hum.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:08
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:
https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.
 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 



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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:24
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I much prefer tagging/ labelling by the album and multi-tagging albums, but given the system PA is stuck with, I would move Frank Zappa out of Avant-Prog and into Eclectic Prog. I also would put Jethro Tull in Eclectic Prog instead of having it in Prog Folk.

There's lot I think that I might move to Eclectic Prog and Crossover.

Agree with both of these. 

I'm not losing any sleep over any of this. To me its much more important that they are on here rather than where. But it's fun to discuss. If anyone really wants a move they can suggest it as per the process outlined. 


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:48
Great points everyone and then there's always the question of whether we should add more genre tagging. Some will say absolutely not but i think the more the better since as the music world has expanded exponentially  it's useful to become ever more specific in a tagging system.

For example, someone mentioned prog related only refers to rock. Why can't we have a secondary tag called prog related jazz which could included Coltrane, Sun Ra and others that weren't quite fusiony enough for the category but clearly ran parallel to the prog world.

There are many new tags popping up in the prog world as well that could be considered.

Brutal Prog
Pronk (Progressive Punk)
Swancore

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D

Also another perplexing feature of this site is that RPI is included. Most of these bands are really just symphonic prog (but not always like Area). Well why are many of the Spanish and Argentine symphonic bands not included as they utilized the exact same formula only sung in Spanish rather than Italian. To me that makes no sense.

Ironically many sites consider zeuhl a subgenre of avant-prog but i'm fine with it as a distinct genre here because it is so distinct.

It's not unheard of for an artist to be moved here. When i first started visiting the site i was perplexed by Cornucopia was listed as jazz-fusion and not Krautrock. I submitted the change to both the PSIKE (whatever it was called ten years ago) and JRF teams and voila it was changed unanimously!


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: projeKct
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 06:38
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

I like this idea in general (on a "by album" basis), but I think it won't work on many cases on a "by artist" basis.

Take Pain of Salvation for example. Each of those prog-metal subgenres would be too specific for describing their whole discography. So in this case, I like the vagueness of the "Progressive Metal" tag.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 06:43
^ the generic progressive metal tag would still be used
bands like Death are clearly progressive death metal
bands like Deathspell Omega are clearly progressive black metal
i know this will never happen. this is a fantasy thread!


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:01
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 ...

Hi,

And this has been one reason why I have mentioned several times that we need to make sure any artists has 2 albums worth of music FIRST ... before including them in PA. This means, likely, less inclusions, but in the end, it would help define/classify things a bit better, and I think that we will find if some bands are for real or not within the sphere they are being considered.

What I don't want to see, is someone create something in their bedroom, not that it can't be done, and immediately post it on PA and say it is progressive, and we listen to it and go ... yeah ... has some progressive on it ... but we do not know the artist, and what his inclinations are, and we should wait for those a bit more. 

It might mean that the other site gets more "listings", so what ... let them list all the crap out there, and bloat their database so badly, to the point of it being impossible to understand how and why are they here, other than some fan's fancy shampoo!

But, "mistagged", in my book, could also be a consideration on the folks in that group and making the decision, which as much as I know they hear a lot of things, in the end, I'm not sure that some of them understand or care for the other definitions and placements and would (possibly) just send the band away from their area because it won't fit, and 5 years later, guess where they should be? 

The question is, HOW MANY BANDS WERE MISTAGGED BECAUSE OF THEIR 1ST ALBUM? And if we have that answer, it will be much easier to make a call from then on ... but I'm not sure that database folks look forward to "changes" since most of it would affect their "engine". But that's like saying that the engine doesn't have faults that can't be fixed! Or no one wants to even try ... specially with a behemoth of data!



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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:27
Twelve rrtists who I believe are mis-tagged, or alternatively, twelve artists I was pleasantly surprised to find on Prog Archives, against expectations. Smile

After Forever (Symphonic Metal)
Black Sabbath (Heavy Metal)
Kate Bush (Art Pop)
Deep Purple (Hard Rock)
The Doors (Psychedelic Rock)
Epica (Symphonic Metal)
Jefferson Airplane (Psychedelic Rock)
Led Zeppelin (Hard Rock)
Nightwish (Symphonic Metal)
Roxy Music (Art Pop)
Talk Talk (Synth-Pop)
Vangelis (Electronica)

And that's just for starters. I could go on, so I will.....

Tori Amos (Art Pop)
Anathema (Hard Rock)
Be Bop Deluxe (Art Pop)
The Beatles (Pop/Rock) 
Blue Oyster Cult (Hard Rock)
ELO (Pop/Rock)
Jimi Hendrix (Psychedelic Rock)
Radiohead (Alternative Rock)
Rainbow (Hard Rock)
Spirit (Psychedelic Rock)
The Who (Hard Rock)
Wishbone Ash (Hard Rock)




Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 ...

Hi,

And this has been one reason why I have mentioned several times that we need to make sure any artists has 2 albums worth of music FIRST ... before including them in PA. This means, likely, less inclusions, but in the end, it would help define/classify things a bit better, and I think that we will find if some bands are for real or not within the sphere they are being considered.

What I don't want to see, is someone create something in their bedroom, not that it can't be done, and immediately post it on PA and say it is progressive, and we listen to it and go ... yeah ... has some progressive on it ... but we do not know the artist, and what his inclinations are, and we should wait for those a bit more. 

It might mean that the other site gets more "listings", so what ... let them list all the crap out there, and bloat their database so badly, to the point of it being impossible to understand how and why are they here, other than some fan's fancy shampoo!

But, "mistagged", in my book, could also be a consideration on the folks in that group and making the decision, which as much as I know they hear a lot of things, in the end, I'm not sure that some of them understand or care for the other definitions and placements and would (possibly) just send the band away from their area because it won't fit, and 5 years later, guess where they should be? 

The question is, HOW MANY BANDS WERE MISTAGGED BECAUSE OF THEIR 1ST ALBUM? And if we have that answer, it will be much easier to make a call from then on ... but I'm not sure that database folks look forward to "changes" since most of it would affect their "engine". But that's like saying that the engine doesn't have faults that can't be fixed! Or no one wants to even try ... specially with a behemoth of data!



^ so all the artists that only released one album wouldn't qualify?

You be trippin'. Bye bye one shot artists that never got around to a second coming.

Easier just to reevalute an artist if another style becomes the dominate one me thinks


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:42
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D


I'd be fine with Fantomas in Experimental Metal, they are a few Avant Metal bands that seem to be in the Avant genre rather than the Experimental Metal genre. It's not a big deal to me, I think they sit fine in either. Avant tends to be one of the dumping grounds for bands that don't fit elsewhere, similar to Eclectic.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:06
Echolyn should be either crossover or eclectic prog and not symphonic. That's all I can think of for now. 




Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:41
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Sanguine Hum should be Canterbury.

The Psychedelic Ensemble should be Symphonic.


I agree with TPE. It should move from Neo-prog to Symphonic.


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“I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart


Posted By: Criswell
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:42
I've often thought the line between Neo Prog and Symphonic Prog to be a bit blurred...


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 11:56
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


^ so all the artists that only released one album wouldn't qualify?

You be trippin'. Bye bye one shot artists that never got around to a second coming.

Easier just to reevalute an artist if another style becomes the dominate one me thinks

Hi,

That was not the idea ... if one artist does not release any more work, then after a time he/she should be added ... the idea was to prevent the inundation by wanna bees that do not belong and are being mistagged right from the start.

I have no issues with the so many bands we are discovering from the 70's that only had one album at all ... their work has survived quite well and they deserve to be listed. But, today, with the ease that things can be created, and no studio, I think I would put the brake on the idea some ... 

I was also thinking that the "definitions" for inclusion and of the specific areas and terms, be cleaned up so there is less discussion or doubt as to the selection ... when something is being thrown around because it could belong to various areas, it makes it look like it will always end up in the wrong place.


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:15
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I'm not hearing much Canterbury in Sanguine Hum.
And I don't hear much Canterbury in Antique Seeking Nuns. The same songwriters in each band, and their style of music did not change from nun to hum. So how can one be labeled Canterbury and the other neo? They should both have the same label.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:26
See I hear the whimsy in Antique Seeking Nuns.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:37
^So whimsy is the defining factor for labeling a band Canterbury or neo? Anything else?


Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 13:06
Does any of it matter?

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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 13:54
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^So whimsy is the defining factor for labeling a band Canterbury or neo? Anything else?


A factor, not THE factor. It's right there in the genre definition.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 14:20
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Does any of it matter?


Well if we moved Pink Floyd to tech extreme metal, Genesis to RIO and Henry Cow to crossover I think we’d find out in a hurry from users all around the world if it matters

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 16:29
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Does any of it matter?


Well if we moved Pink Floyd to tech extreme metal, Genesis to RIO and Henry Cow to crossover I think we’d find out in a hurry from users all around the world if it matters


I would say that it kind of does matter for archival purposes. As for Henry Cow, sure the group was the founder of RIO, but I could see music it made, especially Desperate Straights with Slapp Happy tagged as Crossover here if we focused on albums using our categories (and especially if we had multi tag options just using our category names, which would be silly). Definitely has art pop/ progressive pop qualities, as does In Praise of Learning.

But yes, such changes would get a huge reaction. It might not lead to war... Oh wait, it already is leading to War!



Anyway, such things are often fun to discuss even if it is not really that significant. And I have requested that more than one band be moved from one Prog category to another which were approved for a move by the relevant teams. It definitely does happen.



Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 15 2023 at 17:23
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D


I'd be fine with Fantomas in Experimental Metal, they are a few Avant Metal bands that seem to be in the Avant genre rather than the Experimental Metal genre. It's not a big deal to me, I think they sit fine in either. Avant tends to be one of the dumping grounds for bands that don't fit elsewhere, similar to Eclectic.



WHYYYYYYYY? Why in the world would any primarily metal band be in avant / RIO when we have THREE metal categories on this site? Confused

Illogical


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 13:55
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

Disregarding the practical aspect of this, I think of Prog Metal more like a separate genre different from all these mentioned even there's maybe quite a lot of overlap.



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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 14:20

^ But okay, I suppose now you were also talking about "Tech/Extreme Prog Metal". 








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                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond


Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 15:31
^I guess if it's whimsy tech/extreme metal it could be labeled Canterbury.


Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 16:31
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:
https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=73146&PID=4301136#4301136

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.

I think the BIG PROBLEM is that so many bands change and evolve. Look a ULVER or MOTORPSYCHO or ZAPPA. Or Santana's brief foray into J-R Fusion or Johnny Mac and Jan Akkerman's forays into classical et al. or Gleb Kolyadin's New Age and classical albums.

J Tull had some Prog Folky albums but I've always thought them first as a blues-rock band.


My point is: (as has been discussed many times before) that bands are stuck with one assignation when, in fact, they may have several versions of themselves presented to the world on an album-by-album basis.



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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 20:48
Can end up going down all sorts of rabbit holes with this I suspect.

ELP, Yes and Genesis are all tagged 'Symphonic' yet they are all different. ELP could easily be in eclectic and Genesis in Neo. I realise that may seem very strange but Genesis evolved the song format rather than being a pure symphonic classical based band imo and that it was what Neo is to me. Yes at their best were much more classical than Genesis (the Wakeman/Howe axis made that happen) and so would still be Symphonic as they stand and ELP were all over the place so could be in eclectic.
I would keep Tull in folk prog for want of anything better (don't understand 'eclectic' for them at all) and keep Floyd in Psychedelic but would put King Crimson in Experimental/Post Metal personally. Some of this is a bit 'after the fact' but isn't that what we are talking about?


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:37
^ i kinda agree with you. Genesis really was different than the virtuoso wizardry of true symphonic prog bands. I would call them the first neo-prog band as well. Tull is prog folk. Bare bones albums like Songs From The Wood reveal their true underpinnings.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:38
Quote Magic Pie should be progressive metal
Are you kidding me? Magic Pie is not even close to being soft metal. It's 100% symphonic/neo or maybe eclectic prog. It's anything BUT metal. I would personally stick to the Symphonic label, as it is classified right now, because of the band's retro sound.


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A different side to claim the most...


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:48
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Magic Pie should be progressive metal
Are you kidding me? Magic Pie is not even close to being soft metal. It's 100% symphonic/neo or maybe eclectic prog. It's anything BUT metal. I would personally stick to the Symphonic label, as it is classified right now, because of the band's retro sound.


No not kidding but now that you mention it eclectic actually would be better.

All 5 Magic Pie albums have tons of progressive metal in them but the music shifts from various symphonic and neo-prog moods to crazy avant-prog moments before bursting into extremely confident progressive metal.

Have you really listened to the albums? I just listened to all of them several times in recent weeks and the METAL is absolutely ferocious. They are on metal sites and even RYM has progressive metal for all five albums as one of the tags.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:50
Yes and IMO It's not metal. Kim Stenberg's guitar playing is shreddy but it doesn't really make the music heavy enough to consider it metal.


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A different side to claim the most...


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 16 2023 at 22:13
^ metal doesn't need to shred. It just needs to be heavy. You seem to have your own definition of metal.

Magic Pie is more metal than some bands listed as such here like Riverside for example.

I'd probably vote eclectic overall though because it's a roller coaster ride of ideas which is why i love them.



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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: terramystic
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 10:54
I agree that RPI, krautrock and neo-prog descriptors don't make much sense.

RPI bands are mostly sypmhonic prog (Area as one of exceptions is more jazzy and eclectic).

Krautrock is psych/space rock from Germany.

Neo-prog is mostly symphonic and crossover prog.


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 11:33
I also believe Psychedelic/Space Rock should be divided into two separate genres. After all, The Doors aren't Space Rock and Hawkwind aren't Psychedelic Rock, although their light shows can be quite psychedelic at times - keeping in tune with the Spirit of the Age. Smile



Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 12:19
The Doors aren't in Psychadelic/Space Rock they are in Proto Prog.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 12:34
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

The Doors aren't in Psychadelic/Space Rock they are in Proto Prog.

I must admit, I'd never thought of The Doors as a Proto Prog band - at least not until I arrived here at ProgArchives. Tongue


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 12:46
The Doors were a pop band.


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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 21:10
The Jackson Five were also a pop band Wink


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 18 2023 at 21:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The Doors were a pop band.


A psychedelic pop band. I'm still not sure how they are proto-prog!


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 02:03
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The Doors were a pop band.


A psychedelic pop band. I'm still not sure how they are proto-prog!

Also psychedelic rock. They can be considered proto-prog for their long epic, theatrical songs, they could easily go beyond the structure of a pop/rock song, they could easily jam and so on. 


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 06:09
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The Doors were a pop band.

Hi,

Given their ability, work and long cuts, and meaningful experience for the most part, I would think that they defy the idea of what a pop band means, and later in life, even Ray M. expressed the feeling that they did not like that "radio" was telling them what to do ... they wanted to be a "visual" band, one that kinda evolved from FILM ... for its ideas, and Jim M. managed to do that beautifully many times. 

If you say ... yummy yummy the love is in my tummy, I can handle that ... but saying that Light My Fire, which you could easily say is about an erection ... is scary ... very scary ... and I am pretty sure that all members of The Doors, knew the difference between crap and real stuff.

That makes them NOT A pop band.


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 06:26
^ You're right! There's a world of difference between the Kings of Acid Rock and the Bubblegum Pop of the 1910 Fruitgum Company. Smile



Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 06:51
^ Yummy Yummy Yummy was done by Ohio Express. That video is totally mistagged.

First of all it shows The Best of the 1910 Fruitgum Co.: Simon Says album cover and yet that song isn't on it.
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/the-1910-fruitgum-company/the-best-of-the-1910-fruitgum-co-simon-says/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/the-1910-fruitgum-company/the-best-of-the-1910-fruitgum-co-simon-says/

Someone obviously mixed up the two bands most likely due to the fact they released a split album with this song (done by Ohio Express) on it.
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/1910-fruitgum-co-ohio-express/1910-fruitgum-co-and-ohio-express/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/1910-fruitgum-co-ohio-express/1910-fruitgum-co-and-ohio-express/

I guess we can add mistagged videos to this discussion! LOL




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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 07:05
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The Doors were a pop band.

Hi,

Given their ability, work and long cuts, and meaningful experience for the most part, I would think that they defy the idea of what a pop band means, and later in life, even Ray M. expressed the feeling that they did not like that "radio" was telling them what to do ... they wanted to be a "visual" band, one that kinda evolved from FILM ... for its ideas, and Jim M. managed to do that beautifully many times. 

If you say ... yummy yummy the love is in my tummy, I can handle that ... but saying that Light My Fire, which you could easily say is about an erection ... is scary ... very scary ... and I am pretty sure that all members of The Doors, knew the difference between crap and real stuff.

That makes them NOT A pop band.


Just because a band is edgy and has more contemplative lyrics doesn't mean they can't be a pop band.

Pop means POPULAR MUSIC with catchy melodic hooks. The Doors did it better than most but essentially they were a psychedelic pop rock band that perfectly exudes the zeitgeist of the era even in the modern day.

Sure they had extended jam sessions but so did many other bands of the late 60s.

Innovative yes but i find the proto-prog claims a bit exaggerated.

The only album that really showcased any kind of progressive tendencies was The Soft Parade.

Tracks like "Strange Days" were veering towards prog but most tracks were short and punchy.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy


Posted By: altered_beast
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 16:39
Yeah what a good number of people are posting here are my exact sentiments. What I thought about posting has already been posted. Some bands fit under more than one category during different eras which doesn’t make categorizing any easier.

Big Big Train may have started out as Crossover Prog but have been far more Symphonic Prog for a long time now. Riverside is definitely more Heavy Prog which someone already pointed out.
Some I did not see listed. Oingo Boingo-Crossover Prog? I don’t think so Tim.

Proto Prog is the category I have the most difficult time with. Some of the most prominent bands that fit into this category have been listed as Crossover Prog. When I think of Proto Prog Procol Harum, Family, It’s a Beautiful Day, Moody Blues, etc come to mind.
I understand bands like The Beatles, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, etc may have influenced Prog in some ways but also influenced other genres. I don’t think of these bands being Proto Prog at all. Ok so Vanilla Fudge had 1 album Renaissance which is a very important album. Too many of the bands listed in the Proto Prog category just don’t belong on the website at all. A few of the Prog Related and Crossover Prog have some inconsistencies that leave me scratching my head but the Proto Prog category has too many issues. One man’s opinion. I welcome yours.


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 17:25
 ^ Keep in mind Proto-prog is not a subgenre or category of progressive rock, it is a historical section of artists deemed significant to the development of what became known as progressive rock.   

Again--  not Prog.   A tip of the hat to the bold artistry of the 1960s that led to Prog.




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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 17:32
^ but also many bands listed as proto-prog came after what was truly considered prog. Frank Zappa, The Moody Blues, The Electric Prunes, Soft Machine and others had already developed prog rock before many of the proto-prog bands listed here. I guess they are regarded as supplemental helpers for getting the prog party started but the choices of why one artist is here and another is not is a bit baffling to someone just dropping in.


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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 17:37
the most annoying thing for me is seeing a bunch of contemporary artists thrown into Neo Prog. I mean come on Neo Prog was/is such a distinctive sound/scene, why label every second post-80s Prog band as Neo, jeez. I swear like 60% of the current Neo Prog list on PA is actually Alternative Prog/AtmoProg (I call it "Kscope Prog")


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 20:56
Jethro Tull is hard rock / heavy metal.  They even won some kind of award of it.


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 22:37
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

the most annoying thing for me is seeing a bunch of contemporary artists thrown into Neo Prog. I mean come on Neo Prog was/is such a distinctive sound/scene, why label every second post-80s Prog band as Neo, jeez. I swear like 60% of the current Neo Prog list on PA is actually Alternative Prog/AtmoProg (I call it "Kscope Prog")
My thoughts exactly. A few contemporary bands from the mid 00s onward maybe sound enough like those foundational 80s-mid 90s neo bands to qualify, but on the whole, a lot of them belong in symph or, more likely, crossover, on this site.


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 19 2023 at 22:41
Originally posted by altered_beast altered_beast wrote:

Yeah what a good number of people are posting here are my exact sentiments. What I thought about posting has already been posted. Some bands fit under more than one category during different eras which doesn’t make categorizing any easier.

Big Big Train may have started out as Crossover Prog but have been far more Symphonic Prog for a long time now. Riverside is definitely more Heavy Prog which someone already pointed out.
Some I did not see listed. Oingo Boingo-Crossover Prog? I don’t think so Tim.

Agree on Riverside. Oingo Boingo are probably a better fit for Prog Related. The first three albums and the final one are certainly progressive within that niche (not "prog" as such, but progressive). But I think that first album of theirs was really the most innovative. If they extrapolated further from there, they'd maybe work in Crossover, but considering that's just one of their albums, overall, Related might be better.

That first one kills though. NAAASTYYYY HAAAABIIIIITS!


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 20 2023 at 02:23
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Jethro Tull is hard rock / heavy metal.  They even won some kind of award of it.

LOL And who would know more about that than the Grammy people



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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy


Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 20 2023 at 05:01
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

the most annoying thing for me is seeing a bunch of contemporary artists thrown into Neo Prog. I mean come on Neo Prog was/is such a distinctive sound/scene, why label every second post-80s Prog band as Neo, jeez. I swear like 60% of the current Neo Prog list on PA is actually Alternative Prog/AtmoProg (I call it "Kscope Prog")

My thoughts exactly. A few contemporary bands from the mid 00s onward maybe sound enough like those foundational 80s-mid 90s neo bands to qualify, but on the whole, a lot of them belong in symph or, more likely, crossover, on this site.
yep! And as much as I vibe with the "Kscope Prog" atmosphere and mood, many of these artists are barely Prog-Related honestly


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 20 2023 at 06:32
^ if only there were a website that allowed everyone to vote on these things Wink

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https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recent Listens tracked with AwesomeProg.com:


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 20 2023 at 06:49
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

yep! And as much as I vibe with the "Kscope Prog" atmosphere and mood, many of these artists are barely Prog-Related honestly

some examples of bands would help prove your point a bit better. 


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 21 2023 at 00:03
Not a "Kscope" example, but Frost* is the kind of group that does not evoke the 80s- mid 90s style of Neo.


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 21 2023 at 00:12
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Not a "Kscope" example, but Frost* is the kind of group that does not evoke the 80s- mid 90s style of Neo.

True, I've always thought they fit better under crossover. 


Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 21 2023 at 00:15
^And I SWEAR they were when I first came to this site around 5 years ago or so (before getting on the forums), but they must have been moved.


Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 21 2023 at 00:26
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

^And I SWEAR they were when I first came to this site around 5 years ago or so (before getting on the forums), but they must have been moved.

I think they always were under neo, I could be wrong though. Confused If they were moved from crossover to neo, it was wrong IMO. Smile


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 22 2023 at 10:08
Yep Frost* belong under 'Neo' as much as Porcupine Tree do (but it would be hilarious to put the latter there just to annoy S Wilson lol). Jem even did a video where he went out of his way to explain that they were deliberately avoiding all the Neo type prog stuff (he had listened to a ton of it and wasn't impressed apparently).  


Posted By: Dapper~Blueberries
Date Posted: September 21 2023 at 09:03
Eh I still think Frost* are neo prog. They got the vibes, y'know

As for me, I feel like Big Big Train should be in symphonic prog, same with Styx. Also Mr. Bungle should be in prog related, they aren't really prog, just very avant garde funk metal, like Primus


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D~B



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