Philibert, you need to up your trolling game.

Don't encourage him.

(Svetty, is that you?) 

Led Zeppelin are not a prog band.

Prog is an approach to creating music, and even in bands so different from each other, you can easily identify similarities in their approach to creating their music.

I would tend to agree. There is a very wide range of musical styles under the prog umbrella, there's more to it than that - it's all in the musicality, the lyrics/themes, even album covers. It's not a definable musical style such as reggae and is often subjective. Hence why there are so many arguments here about "are such and such prog?".

Depends on how we look at it ... but many folks won't even bother to look at music history ... in a line ... where you can compare the changes and improvements over the years. Inside of this "exercise" I would imagine and believe that "progressive" deserves to be there, although my worry is about the other version called "prog" which I still don't understand much, but it seems to suggest more rock than progressive ideas.

In the 60's of last century there was a major shift in jazz ... the same thing happened in rock music when it started picking itself up and getting a little fame (or otherwise ... ) and was then heard by many and appreciated from many angles. But no one, really, gave that "rock music" much credit for anything, and most classic folks deemed it too simple and boring to be considered major music ... and now the problem starts ... the revenge was that the public saw immense sales take off and the classical music sales and discussions hit the toilet ... sadly, no one has been able to describe, properly, what progressive was, and then prog was ... and some ideas were thrown together with paper and scissors to create a most incredibly unmusical definition for the "public" that folks, TODAY, still believe in it, even though every thing mentioned is found everywhere else in music. That would mean that progressive, or prog, has no redeeming factor whatsoever.

And later, it became a copy the sound kind of thing, and after that folks with databases, decided that numbers were important and now you don't even know if the definition and idea for it all, matters at all ... because the numbers are more important, just like the record companies told us many years ago.

I think the prog/progressive idea has merit, but it needs to get out of the hands of database folks and have a cleaner musical definition that even fits on a "staff" of musical history ... right now those definitions don't belong anywhere since it all had happened before, and after. Thus making a definition ridiculous to say the least. I'm not sure this will ever happen since the folks that decided the prog/progressive ideas were not musical folks at all ... they just figured out something "different" about their favorite bands!

Quote of the week 

Can of worms opened, to keep on flogging this horse to death. You know what everyone is going to ask, so just list five of those real attributes that apply to all prog bands.   

Thread opened by a troll, banned already, pure baiting here. Let's see how long this thread will last. 

Ah right, sorry. I didn't realise. 

There was never any suggestion that the music actually needed to evolve and change over time, though it did as more bands experimented with different approaches.

I would suggest that some tracks, like Kashmir and Stairway to Heaven, are very definitely progressive, even if all their output is not. 

gen·re

 (zhän′rə)n.2. A type or class: "Emaciated famine victims ... on television focused a new genre of attention on the continent"

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^ There's a difference between "is Prog really a genre" and "does genres really exist?" - It's like you're answering questions that nobody's asking.

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-Btw: Are you as hot headed in real life as on PA?

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Well, we can't all be experts.

All reasons to call prog really a genre are there to call Rock Andaluz (or Prog Andaluz, my personal variation) really a genre. I have a regular contact with Rock Andaluz artists/bands and they simply don't understand why Prog Archives still not establish Rock Andaluz as a genre, and why there are hardly new Rock Andaluz bands on Prog Archives. I also hardly notice Spanish progheads on PA.

Check out this:  https://www.backgroundmagazine.nl/Specials/RockAndaluz.html" rel="nofollow - Rock Andaluz (backgroundmagazine.nl)  

Just a handful of bands? Do you know how many Rock Andaluz bands emerged since the late Sixties, and how many new bands are active under the banner Rock Andaluz? PA established the genre Raga Prog but if I compare Raga Prog to Rock Andaluz the latter is way more widespread and elaborate. If PA accepts Rock Andaluz I know at least 25 new bands to be included, that is more than a handful, apart from the many many Rock Andaluz bands from the past.

http://progressiverockcentral.com/resources/progressive-rock-history/" rel="nofollow - Progressive Rock (also known as Prog Rock, or simply Prog) is a musical genre that was initially developed in the United Kingdom in the late 1960s and had its golden age in the first half of the 1970s.

The late 1960s and early 1970s was a time of musical exploration. Young musicians experimented with new musical instruments and incorporated and combined various musical genres in new, unexpected ways.

Progressive Rock was a natural outgrowth of the experimental Psychedelic period. What took Progressive Rock to another level was that the musicians who got involved had a more developed understanding of music theory and musical history.

Early progressive rock mixed rock with blues [SBB, Camel], classical music [Moody Blues, The Nice, ELP], folk [Renaissance, Gentle Giant, Strawbs], and jazz [Soft Machine, Caravan] elements, sometimes under the influence of hallucinogenics for psychedelic music. In addition to these musical influences, progressive rock musicians added other art forms such as literature, theater [Genesis] and innovative graphic design.

Progressive rock is known for its use of complex compositions, including frequent time signature changes. This means that within a single song, the rhythm and tempo can change multiple times, creating a dynamic and unpredictable listening experience for the audience. The use of odd time signatures, such as 5/4, 7/8, and 9/8, is also common in progressive rock music.

King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Genesis, and Yes, among others, are known for their use of complex time signatures in their music.

In progressive rock, time signature changes are often used to create tension and release, add complexity and depth to the music, and highlight the technical skills of the musicians. This approach to songwriting and composition has influenced many other genres of music, including jazz, heavy metal, and https://progressiverockcentral.com/2023/02/09/the-phenomenal-world-of-jazz-rock-fusion" rel="nofollow - fusion .

Most people underestimate like you but you are never too old to discover, check out my extensive and updated special on The Dutch Progressive Rock Page:

https://www.dprp.net/features/2022/prog-andaluz-1" rel="nofollow - Prog Andaluz #1 • Features • DPRP.net

https://www.dprp.net/features/2022/prog-andaluz-2" rel="nofollow - Prog Andaluz #2 • Features • DPRP.net

https://www.dprp.net/features/2022/prog-andaluz-3" rel="nofollow - Prog Andaluz #3 • Features • DPRP.net

https://www.dprp.net/features/2022/prog-andaluz-4" rel="nofollow - Prog Andaluz #4 • Features • DPRP.net

https://www.dprp.net/features/2022/prog-andaluz-5" rel="nofollow - Prog Andaluz #5 • Features • DPRP.net

Muchas alegrias, saludos.

Ok that's funny......I peed a little bit laughing 

To me "prog" is not a genre, it is an attribute of music. Progressive rock is a genre, so there are bands not considered progressive rock that can have prog attributes. 

But is porg a genre?? 

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"Is Prog really a genre?". 

If Prog is short for Progressive Rock, not the way PA uses this term, but it can be defined as a genre, like the way RYM does it. 

Till the cows come home.....

I resemble that remark!!! 

This is why I created my website:

- Andalusian Rock

- Andalusian Prog Rock

- Andalusian Prog Folk Rock

- Andalusian Folk Rock

- Prog Folk

- Prog Folk Rock

- Prog Rock/Folk

- Folk Rock

- Prog-Adjacent Folk Rock 

- ...

These are all possible tag badges at AP. And it's not to shoe-horn releases into little boxes - if you assign "Andalusian Prog Folk Rock" to a release, it will also be listed when people search only for "Prog Rock", "Rock" or even merely "Andalusian".

Hi,

I would imagine that you did not see Edgar Froese's words in at least one krautrock special, that were exactly on par with everyone else's work. It was thinking and understanding like that which made the difference ... it wasn't about chords and notes and other superfluous ideas.

The feelings that create a "scene" are usually closely aligned. They might not be in America because East, West, Midwest and South are so different, and Nashville is not interested either, and seeing that in America, makes it hard to understand how so many musical scenes have come alive in Europe for such a long time, going back around (at least) 800 years ... and we think that a genre definition is what this is all about ... IT IS NOT.

The main issue with this discussion is that folks are talking about their favorites. Not the actual arts that created the scene, which included FILM and THEATRE and LITERATURE ... and many folks here ignore that fact. If you think there is a difference, between Damo and Klaus Kinsky you have not watched films or seen the specials about Klaus's improvisations ... that created many a stir, but Werner Herzog kept the camera going because he knew you would never again in a lifetime, capture moments that powerful. Damo extended things the same way ... the camera (us) got to see it all the time!

How can it not be a "genre" when it is spread out so strongly in other arts ... only by people that do not believe that the other arts are important, I imagine.

Crazy ... plz stop using "favorites" to define a genre. Define the time and place and the music itself ... not your favorites!

 

Hi,

That is such a bizarre idea ... it was like it never happened in Film, Literature and Theater, all over the world. It is sad that so many folks leave behind, so many other artists ... that were a part of it all ... it's down right insane!

The pomposity, comes when we think that seeing the opening of 2001 in the Cinerama Dome (there has never been anything else like it!) was not a strong enough element and idea, that helped a lot of rock music get LOUDER and NOISIER, to impress our naive ideas about the arts, and music. Or that HAIR, showcasing many nude performers and lots of music, was not pompous ... well, maybe Oh, Calcutta was pompous, but at least it was funny and a satire. But I'm not sure that progressive folks might know what that means, and then find so much theater at the time as stupid, and high schoolish! Heck, Burroughs, Ginsberg and many writers that worked with many rock folks, look like total idiots and stupid now ... sorry folks ... that does NOT make sense! They used the same idea for improvisations, and specially Ginsberg.

But no ... all that is garbage, not art, and that's what hurts the progressive music ideas even more.

If you think we, the progressive folks, think it is pompous, you never saw that flute idiot that got blown out at the Hollywood Bowl (finally!!!) by a jazz guy. There was/is more pomposity in some classically minded folks that there was in rock music, though the sales change from classical to rock music in the late 60's changed that idea altogether.

Case in point: As a young boy I got a tape copy of Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here (that was mid 1980s). I loved it, couldn't stop listening to it. Did I know about Syd Barrett back then? No. Did I care much about any of the societal issues of the 70s? Nope. I was totally clueless when it came to what Have a Cigar was about. Only recently I learned about who is doing the vocals on the track and the stories around that. The point being: If the music is exceptionally good, none of that matters. The music stands on its own (and should be evaluated on its own).

Rant over, back to the (futile) attempt to define "prog".

Hi,

Well ... it's not the same thing happens in other arts, isn't it? 

Just bizarre that we think "prog" has some stuff in it that no other art can show ... although, trying to get someone to describe notes/chords with colors might be a bit strange and weird ... oh wait .. Eno has done it! But it has been done with words, and then some ... I guess that we can now say that many experimentalist folks are total weird and off their rockers because the "sophistication" has to be decided by someone that ... well ... you decide!

Don't encourage it. No one wants to hear its inane nancing about regarding the theatre (not t-h-e-a-t-e-r, dah-ling, the spelling lacks the pretension necessary to encompass the arrogance necessary to prattle on about themes that have no bearing on the discussion).

I don't know how you are doing these quotes, the person's name does not show. 

"Theater" is American English for "cinema", as in "movie theater". 

Theater is the AE spelling of "theatre", and also a synonym for cinema. At least according to the Cambridge dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/theater" rel="nofollow - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/theater

I was relaxed, just confused  (as my emoticon showed). 

isn't that what I said?! 

My post was about John Petrucci's Dream Theater and what it means there. 

My bad... 

I think genres can be useful IF you see them as something optional, focus on inclusiveness instead of divisiveness, and not take them too seriously.

Hrychu wrote: The Dork Elf wrote: theatre (not t-h-e-a-t-e-r, dah-ling, the spelling lacks the pretension necessary to encompass the arrogance necessary to prattle on about themes that have no bearing on the discussion). Really, dahling? Tell that to John Petrucci. xD