Fragile is Superestimated?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134850
Printed Date: August 23 2025 at 07:48
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Fragile is Superestimated?
Posted By: ELPmasters
Subject: Fragile is Superestimated?
Date Posted: April 27 2025 at 16:26
|
What do you think about this? For me, Fragile is not this album like the people talk so much... Your best moments is Roundabout, South Side of The Sky and Heart of a Sunrise. The double Distance/Fish is better on Yessongs |
Replies:
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 27 2025 at 17:25
|
Superestimate verb 1. (rare, nonstandard) Synonym of overestimate. Usage notes -- Mainly an error by non-native speakers, perhaps through confusion with e.g. Spanish sobrestimar. Overrated? Perhaps. I prefer the albums before and after Fragile. Both seem more cohesive. There are jarring songs thrown in just to be inclusive of all band members. Still, a very good album. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: ThyroidGlands
Date Posted: April 27 2025 at 17:38
|
Yes (no pun intended) ------------- ⋆la faulx⋆ |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 27 2025 at 20:27
|
TYA and Fragile are both equally great. I probably prefer Fragile by just a tiny bit though. Top five Yes (or my opinion I should say): Relayer Close to the Edge Fragile The Yes Album Going for the One Just behind GFTO is Drama then Tales but all are great. And 90125 is a great pop rock album with prog elements but nothing more and nothing less. It's not on the same level as the others. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 27 2025 at 21:48
| The interesting track for me is South Side Of The Sky which sounds like proto prog metal. Yes developed a harder edge on this album and that stood them in good stead to take over the mantle of the leading prog band ahead of ELP. Rick Wakeman is a massive figure in prog and can never be underestimated although they found the perfect replacement in Patrick Moraz when he left to purse a solo career before returning to the band for the classic GFTO album. TYA to GFTO is arguably the greatest and most important run of prog albums when the genre was riding high. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 03:35
| ^ they were leaving covers of other artists behind, needed to stand on their own 2 feet. Historical perspective over revisionism ie this or that album could have been better if the band had done this or not done this. Fragile was a success and nowadays we can make our own versions of these albums if there are tracks we don't like. BTW Selling England By The Pound is often considered Genesis finest work despite having a Phil solo track. I think with Fragile some of the solo pieces can act as a small breather or even a bridge/intro into the following track. Cans and Brahms is the only really annoying track for me, would happily have done without that and serves little purpose (but as we know Wakeman was cooking up a brilliant instrumental album of his own at the time and didn't want any of the good stuff to be used here, hence such a weak offering) |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 03:46
|
No, I don't think it's overrated. I can think of a couple other Yes albums are overrated, but i don't want to upset anyone.  
|
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 06:46
I'm a YES fan but it wouldn't offend me if you said Open Your Eyes was overrated. 
|
Cristi wrote:Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 08:08
| Fragile is rated just fine imo. None of the solo pieces have bothered me when I've listened to the album in full. |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 10:39
|
For me Fragile works better with a little tinkering to the running order (something I seldom do). I discard the (dare I say disposable) five short solo tracks, and tack on their version of 'America' which was recorded around the same time but issued only on an Atlantic sampler album, until it turned up as a bonus track on more recent CD releases of 'Fragile'. Thus: 1) Roundabout 2) South Side of the Sky 3) Long Distance Runaround 4) Heart of the Sunrise 5) America All of which clocks in at 42 minutes. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 12:40
Or Talk.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 12:47
Open Your Eyes is one of their worst. Talk is their best of the 90s.
|
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 14:33
|
For me, I think The Yes Album is more superestimated than Fragile. But then, I've been known to superestimate more than I underestimate and polyestimate. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 14:40
Yes, Talk is super-underestimated at PA with a lowly overall rating of just 3.08. 
|
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 15:25
|
Some albums are overrated, but I don't think Fragile is one of them. ------------- 
|
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 18:13
 ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 28 2025 at 23:38
| Talk was the last album when they were'nt trying too hard to be Yes (and also Alan White was good). Mind Drive is good off Keys and there is the Ladder but none of this stuff has really stuck with me. I wonder how many people put on the Ladder and then think , why don't I just play Going For The One instead or even just listen to an actually good modern symphonic prog band like Glass Hammer or Wobbler. The point of just anything Yes has done over the last 30 years is kind of lost on me (sorry). I last saw them play live about 2003 and they were desperately pedestrian as a band even then. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 00:16
The only Yes track that sounds like proto prog metal to me is "Machine Messiah." Maybe also "perpetual change" or the yessongs version of "yours is no disgrace." I don't really hear it in SSOTS to be honest though. Even HOTS comes closer imo but hey I still respect your opinion. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 00:18
No, it's one of their biggest selling albums so I don't think so either. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 00:33
You mean the new studio songs?! |
Posted By: AlanB
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 06:33
My feelings exactly. |
Posted By: felonafan
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 06:40
| "That, That Is" from "Keys to Ascension" (1996) is better than any track from "Fragile")) |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 29 2025 at 06:48
I don't think so.
|
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: April 30 2025 at 05:05
|
For me The Yes Album, Fragile and Close To The Edge are a single thing. I can listen to them three in a row and I feel them like a triple LP ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: April 30 2025 at 06:31
|
I've always regarded 'Fragile' as a nice little EP undermined by the solo tracks. In that sense, I definitely feel it is overrated when compared to masterpieces such as CTTE and Relayer. Just my .02. ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: April 30 2025 at 07:40
Top 3 Super-Underestimated YES Albums 1994: YES - Talk - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lUj1d4fSCsm1W8MpGqww4v1UzFASfbfcI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lUj1d4fSCsm1W8MpGqww4v1UzFASfbfcI 1999: YES - The Ladder - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nqDU0J8X8x2WSBB7xRsGir8Smfl2hlMrU" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nqDU0J8X8x2WSBB7xRsGir8Smfl2hlMrU 2023: YES - Mirror to the Sky - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mdLFJt9iPnV0i5cqbPQzOA3-wD3VEgJxA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mdLFJt9iPnV0i5cqbPQzOA3-wD3VEgJxA
|
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 01 2025 at 05:22
|
Overrated? Yes, as I find a lot of Prog albums better than or at least as good as Fragile. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 01 2025 at 06:19
|
For me, what made Fragile stand out from any other album I'd heard in my life (this would be 1974) was how totally disparate the collection of songs were. There was nothing like it I'd ever heard! (Not sure if there's ever been an imitator do it as well.) Not only was the overall contrivance mind-blowing, but so many of the individual songs were mind-blowing in their own right. I mean, who in 1972 was letting each and every one of their individual members express themselves in the way that they alone wished to express themselves PLUS pull of not one, not two, but three mini-epics whose skills-demonstrations, riffs, and lyrical hooks would prove to be so iconic? Who gave drummers the chance to do what Bruford did on "Heart of the Sunrise"? Who else had a convoluted, nonsensically-lyricked, eight minute song receive high-volume radio play--for over fifty years now! (I mean: who doesn't know "Roundabout"? Even my grand children know "Roundabout.") And who else was throwing around church organs and complex multi-voice vocal weaves over complex, mutli-dimensional hard rock at that time like Yes did on "Southside of the Sky"? Add into the mix the fact that many of these songs--in expanded, exacted, or medley versions--continue to be concert favorites to this day (with Jon & The Band of Geeks). No. The contribution Fragile made to A) the legitimacy of progressive rock music and B) the legacy of prog and rock in general cannot be underestimated. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 01 2025 at 07:53
Hi, In my book, this is sad ... they were not the only group that showed individual talents, and many had already done it by then. My thoughts are that the timing of the album was too soon, and some stuff to fill it up, was needed, but suggesting that SH's part is not good, is a take on his musical ability and sensibilities that has for over two dozen years done so much, and so well for the band ... and I'm not sure that is a fair comment, for an artist, unless folks don't give a damn about "artist" and think that only hits and singles matter in their life ... I can tell you what Picasso, or Dali would tell you about that! I believe we have to stop this attitude of policing and mandating what an artist should or should not do, and if you don't like it, for crying out loud ... look at Mike's wonderful lists and realize there is more music out there, and there is no need to trash some folks ... besides the fact that some of them are so well established at their artistry and you end up showing that you are not looking in the mirror and only seeing someone that could not and did not, do it at all ... PA, and its folks, have to respect the artists a bit more, and I wish, hope, that the Admins can put the foot down on stuff like this ... it hurts the band, and it makes it look like there is a bunch of fans that don't care ... wtfudge are they listening to YES, if that's not their taste? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ELPmasters
Date Posted: May 01 2025 at 20:48
| Man... I have a natural predisposition to like a worst works from the bands, but Open Your Eyes i really don't processed. The best moment is a Boundaries Jon's reference in Somedays... Someshow... Talk is a monument... Awaken rebirths in Endless Dream. Jon is a God of voices of rock and cultural with Milton Nascimento, Freddie Mercury and Peter Gabriel |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 01 2025 at 21:27
Emerson, Lake and Palmer's debut did all that. Yes wanted to be like them! |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 06:25
|
What I find particular about Fragile is its quirkyness and playfulness, but it may also seem to be lack of depth and substans - even Jon Anderson might say that it was about spirituality and being uplifting. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 09:44
|
Fragile is my favourite Yes album, and always has been, which is not to say that it's of highest quality, but I enjoy it the most. And I really love a short piece such as We Have Heaven, and love the shift from that into South Side of the Sky. To me Long Distance/The Fish works beautifully on the album. While I commonly dislike it when people bandy around terms like overrated, the massive enthusiasm and indeed praise for Yes that I have seen from people is not shared by me and fandom tends towards the extreme (fanatics). I'm happy for people to love what they like (provided it's not doing harm) but I would also hope for some broader perspective. For instance, I have seen someone praise Yes, declare its awesome greatness, while completely condemning and ridiculing Magma as garbage. I understand not liking the constructed language, but there is clear compositional and musicianship skills coming from Magma which I would think one could appreciate intellectually even if you don't like it. I think Magma's debut is much stronger and more mature than Yes's first two, for instance. So I guess I am saying, even if I don't like the term, that people seriously overrate Yes. I see that in the praise and in how dismissive some Yes fans are of of other bands. But then one could could say that of fans generally. The much loved Yes album that never connected much with me is Close to the Edge, and it's hardly my favourite three track album (I much prefer Bubu's Anabelas for instance). Never-the-less I recognise that Yes has been very significant to Prog, has talent, and that Close to the Edge has been a very significant album. It does not and never has amazed or enthralled me like it has with many others, and that's fine. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 11:38
| I prefer The Yes Album and Fragile to CTTE because I think the songwriting is more accessible. I’ll probably get flack for that but that’s fine. CTTE is also great but it’s a bit patchwork in its construction. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 12:02
|
But is Fragile supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 13:12
Greg, A number of thoughts on your post. First, as you stated, you are going to find fans of any artist, whether it be Yes, Rush, Pink Floyd or Taylor Swift who are going to dismiss any other artists outright labelling them trash. That happens. I think what is more likely is if you are a fan of lets say ELP, there is a good likelihood they will like Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc as well as like probably some Jazz Fusion such as Weather Report or Pat Metheny. Even among enthusiasts of Progressive Rock, it has been my experience that RIO and Zeuhl genres of Prog Rock, for example, are just a bridge to far for them. I'm one that doesn't really like the bands in those categories, but I don't dismiss them as untalented hacks. Some of the artists in these genres I have great respect for even if I don't like much of their music. Frank Zappa would be foremost among those artists. As for Yes, there are many who consider them the quintessential Prog Rock band as they check every box of what people think of when one thinks of Prog Rock. They were very influential. And they were extremely successful. They sold 10s of millions of records and were one of the biggest touring acts of the 70s. If memory serves me right, they were the first artist who sold out Madison Square Garden ten times ( Billy Joel holds the all-time record I believe). Yes was doing this while making albums that were daring and uncommercial. Close to the Edge, Tales and Relayer are three albums that have a total of 10 tracks. 6 tracks take up entire sides. 4 tracks are about ten minutes in length. This was not music made to be played on the radio. Yet millions of copies were sold. The question becomes how was Yes able to enjoy as much success as they did while playing music that was not commercially friendly. In my opinion, only ELP at that time was putting out music like Yes that was uncompromising and displayed top level musicianship but sold in the millions and made them a top touring band. King Crimson never had that level of success. Genesis, while popular only reached the level of popularity Yes and ELP enjoyed when they made the decision to become commercial. Kansas became a must see band ( at least in the States) when Carry on Wayward Son and Dust in the Wind were being played on FM radio every 30 minutes. Pink Floyd never displayed the levels of musicianship that other Prog bands did and generally, their music was more digestible, being much less complex. One can see how they hit it big. Rush was beginning to achieve the level of success of Yes and ELP, while displaying the same uncompromising attitude in the late 70s. Jethro Tull could be argued, although they made much more music that was radio friendly than Yes or ELP in the 70s. So, no, Yes is not overrated. The musicians in the band are among the most celebrated not only in Prog Rock, but Rock music in general. They have had a massive influence on Progressive Rock. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 13:24
|
^ I can agree with your points, Jeff, and I mostly do, and I too think of Yes, and ELP, as quintessential Prog, and still say that there are people who seriously overrate Yes (or I should better say issues/aspects regarding Yes), and no doubt others underrate it. So often it depends on the specific claims being made if one is overestimating or underestimating the significance, contributions and objective worth (and in making claims of its worth to others). The praising of Yes' brilliance while dismissing others as trash is what I have thought an example of people overrating Yes while underrating others. It's nothing unique to Yes fans. EDIT: On a tangential note, I would sooner see Zappa in Eclectic than Avant Prog (he is of course not a RIO, aka Rock in Opposition, artist). I like some of his music, but I prefer the RIO acts on the whole. My favourite is Art Zoyd from the RIO side. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: ELPmasters
Date Posted: May 02 2025 at 22:08
|
I feel Prog rock (on terms of most famous groups), has always been kind of pop... C'mon, we have Lucky Man, Time and A Word, Jerusalem, Dusk, Entangled, Wond'ring Aloud... The Prog makes your hits on the mainstream music. Owner of A Lonely Heart is a prove. Maybe not today, but on your eras... Aqualung is a classic together with Dust in The Wind from Kansas and Stairway to Heaven from Led. The great Prog bands of past have a commercial, and easy and simple songs. In 75, one year after a great live album Welcome Back My Friends, with a supreme and powerful versions of the ELP songs, Greg Lake does a I Believe on The Father Christmas, an single that became famous to english mainstream (i saw reports that the music was played in the shopping malls on a reviews From Works Vol. 2 on this site). The Prog on your complexity, you find on b-sides groups and a prog subgenders. But on prog mainstream, i belive only King Crimson has had sucess with factually complex songs. He haved this power... |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: May 03 2025 at 08:13
|
Anyway, Fragile works best for me as entirety when listening to side two first, and "South Side of the Sky", as the last track, being a kind of climax. ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 03 2025 at 23:40
|
My random thoughts: If you were trying to explain to a Martian what 'progressive rock' is then it's very simple , you point them in the direction of Yes. ELP would be a close second. It doesn't matter whether they are underrated or overrated , they represent the genre as well as anything else did. ELP, dispite Roger Waters saying otherwise, were a proper band and could rock up any any festival and not look strange alongside the likes of Sabbath and Purple. Yes on the other hand took the idea of the neo classical prog ensemble to its very zenith when Rick Wakeman joined what was already a stellar line up. The likes of Genesis and Floyd didn't like being called 'prog' at all or being lumped in with those bands. Tull were passengers but never authors or creators of the genre, they mainly followed after realising it was the way to go. Crimson weren't a proper band but more a project as Fripp said on many occasions but made some of the most innovative albums. Fragile can only be overrated because Close To The Edge exists but actually most understand that without Fragile then CTTE likely doesn't happen. Yes also had a definable style and approach through the classic album run of TYA to GFTO. That's why I think they are the most important band of then genre and could be considered now the 'flagship band'. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 04 2025 at 10:14
Liking or not liking is interesting. I have not, for over 30 years found any music, I did not enjoy, and the "like" and "dislike" thing that modern users love to agree on (gives them more of a socialist feel being in agreement with others!!!) is not something that I indulge in, or appreciate. ART, of any kind, is about appreciating the human spirit, and its expression, thus not liking this or that, is simply an emotional perception on our own, and HAS NOTHING TO DO with the art work, generally speaking! That there are different genres, or ideas or styles, is not a problem ... unless you think that everyone has to sound the same, and then ... you would not belong in a progressive therapy group like PA. You, at least, say you appreciate their talent ... but I think that your comments would be much different if that were true, though ... I might be wrong here, but the tone is not favorable in my reading this.
Strange that you mention KC and don't realize that no band has had more changes and experiments (even on stage) than you have suggested. ELP was not as much of a lack of compromise on stage, because a lot of what they did was difficult and required timing and attention. You don't do a Copland on an empty stadium so beautifully without knowing what you are doing and being detailed and attentive to the work you are doing ... though I think that there are/were moments that were left open for a ween bit of improvising or stretching the piano or the guitar. YES, in my book, quit after TFTO and kinda copied RW's comments, that the curry was better than the music. For me, RELAYER was a finger to a lot of fans, and SH going nuts, was probably another finger ... because he had a few moments that he flew in TFTO that folks did not like! The stunning part of it, was that the album did magnificently and they ate crow from it, and ended up having to play it! By then, I had already fallen off YES, because it wasn't exactly about the music, but about (supposedly) being really hip and cool and SELLING!
Starting with DSOTM, PF was NEVER about the musicianship show off that rock'n'rollers cheap bands like to showcase ... with solos that supposedly make them better than all the others. With DSOTM, PF was able to add their sound bites and bits together with the music, and create a sort of "musical", which was a problem ... in one thought/idea. The show ended up being mechanical so it could stay/follow the movie and all the effects and not get disjointed and looking bad. As such, it took away the freedoms for improvising and having more fun, and you had to stay attentive to be "right there" where you needed to be. AND, in a few years time, the visuals created a complete show ... called THE WALL. You can not define PF without finding out about their history with bits and sound bites which went right back to the first days after Syd Barrett, whose many sound bites were used A LOT ... scream your last scream old fan without a basket!!!!! And then realize how much of a story these visuals became. Sadly, you would not know about this ... unless you had the PF bootlegs at the time, which included all the bits between the pieces of music ... my thoughts are that the keyboards, and early synths and equipment, were being setup for the next piece ... PF was (probably) quite ahead in terms of the technology of things, or a DSOTM and following work, would just have been another song! Sadly, if all one can do is look at PF as a bunch of songs, the rest of its history is not necessary or important! ... One last note. I think your evaluation of a bands stature is strange, and it was not the same everywhere. Paris, London, LA, NY would have very different ideas, and sold differently. TFTO did really well in the East Coast because it was appreciated. Here in the West Coast it was trashed, and YES only got an ovation at the Long Beach Arena (TFTO show I saw!) when they played the first bars of Roundabout ... which was SICK. I started crying and left the arena ... the MUSIC was not important, because only the song mattered ... the sickest moment in my whole life, right up there with the locusts and idiots that were fighting for pieces of the pig at Anaheim Stadium ... and PF should have stopped the show and request those fans be removed ... they were not there for the music ... PERIOD. Yo have to draw a line somewhere ... if you're not there for the music and what it inspires you inside, what are you there for? Trashing FRAGILE is really sad ... and not necessary, unless folks think that bands are their toilet paper and nothing else! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 04 2025 at 12:23
Starting with DSOTM, PF was NEVER about the musicianship show off that rock'n'rollers cheap bands like to showcase ... with solos that supposedly make them better than all the others. With DSOTM, PF was able to add their sound bites and bits together with the music, and create a sort of "musical", which was a problem ... in one thought/idea. The show ended up being mechanical so it could stay/follow the movie and all the effects and not get disjointed and looking bad. As such, it took away the freedoms for improvising and having more fun, and you had to stay attentive to be "right there" where you needed to be. AND, in a few years time, the visuals created a complete show ... called THE WALL. You can not define PF without finding out about their history with bits and sound bites which went right back to the first days after Syd Barrett, whose many sound bites were used A LOT ... scream your last scream old fan without a basket!!!!! And then realize how much of a story these visuals became. Sadly, you would not know about this ... unless you had the PF bootlegs at the time, which included all the bits between the pieces of music ... my thoughts are that the keyboards, and early synths and equipment, were being setup for the next piece ... PF was (probably) quite ahead in terms of the technology of things, or a DSOTM and following work, would just have been another song! Sadly, if all one can do is look at PF as a bunch of songs, the rest of its history is not necessary or important! ... One last note. I think your evaluation of a bands stature is strange, and it was not the same everywhere. Paris, London, LA, NY would have very different ideas, and sold differently. TFTO did really well in the East Coast because it was appreciated. Here in the West Coast it was trashed, and YES only got an ovation at the Long Beach Arena (TFTO show I saw!) when they played the first bars of Roundabout ... which was SICK. I started crying and left the arena ... the MUSIC was not important, because only the song mattered ... the sickest moment in my whole life, right up there with the locusts and idiots that were fighting for pieces of the pig at Anaheim Stadium ... and PF should have stopped the show and request those fans be removed ... they were not there for the music ... PERIOD. Yo have to draw a line somewhere ... if you're not there for the music and what it inspires you inside, what are you there for? Trashing FRAGILE is really sad ... and not necessary, unless folks think that bands are their toilet paper and nothing else! [/QUOTEto " Moshkito, I think you miss the point of my post, nor was I attempting to address every issue with each band. Some responses to your points. 1) The Art / Music / etc question. I don't enjoy certain types of music or movies or art. Art is entirely subjective whether you "like" it or not. I don't care for rap or most country music. There are some tracks that I have "liked", but those are two types of music I don't usually "enjoy" to listen to. Among movies, musicals and love stories are not something I generally enjoy. My wife doesn't like most sci-fi movies. My son and I are big into sci-fi. This has nothing to do with the "appreciation" of the arts or your reference to "socialist feel." It's just not my cup of tea. I really don't care if it's something you will not "indulge" in or "appreciate." Seriously I don't care. 2) I'm quite aware that King Crimson has had many changes to their lineup. That has nothing to do with my post. Yes had quite of few lineup changes too. My mention of Crimson was only they did not achieve near the level of success, in popularity or music sales of albums, that Yes or ELP enjoyed. Yes and ELP were selling out large arenas such as Madison Square Garden or filling out football fields. Their album sales dwarf King Crimson. They were doing this while recording music that was for the most part not radio friendly. 3) Pink Floyd. I was not attempting to define their music. I was not making a point about their use of experimenting with technology, their history or whether Syd Barrett was off his rocker. My only point was that it's understandable why Floyd became popular. Their music was not nearly as complex as most of their Prog bretheren. As a band, they did not have the musical chops associated with Prog and therefore that was never a highlight of their music. It was songs, such as Money, Have a Cigar, Run Like Hell and Comfortably Numb that most people heard on the radio and gravitated to. My wife bought DSOTM long ago ( late 80s when she was in high school) before we ever met. I just asked her why she bought DSOTM. Friend of hers liked Floyd and played their music in the car often. In particular, she said she liked the song "Time" and "Money." Found out those songs were on DSOTM and bought the CD. Nothing more or less. 4) You have a different opinion on Yes than I do. It seems that with Tales going forward you had "fallen off Yes" and did not "like" their music going forward. I'm fine with that. No philosophical puffery needed to explain why. 5) Popularity was addressed only in a general sense. In the US, Prog artists usually have been more popular in the NE of the United States than other sections of US. The US is quite large though. By comparison, Great Britain is about the same size as Oregon. Many reasons why music ( or any interest) may be more popular in one region or country. In sports, NASCAR has long been more popular in the South. Lacrosse was for much of it's history popular only in the Mid-Atlantic States and Long Island. Cricket is not even a thought in the US. But, it is quite popular in India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain to name a few. |
Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: May 04 2025 at 12:50
Hmmm … okay … at the risk of sounding precocious … Fragile is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious! |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 04 2025 at 13:06
|
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 04 2025 at 23:28
Hi, The sad side of this (as I see it!!!!), is that one could say that this was black, that was blue and that was green ... and that they could not be "people", because they can't be that different! I don't concern myself with "like" or "dislike", since for me the expression by each human is as important as anything else, even if I do not exactly like it ... and doing this prevents me from saying that my God is right and no one else's is, which is a very ridiculous notion! We don't even try to appreciate the other point of view!
The bootlegs at the time, pretty much showed that it was more about MOOD, than it was about anything else, and lyrics were not exactly important, though some are hard to not hear or understand. I think they had the "chops" ... but were not exactly interested in showing that stuff off, because it interfered with their idea of what they wanted to do. That they became "popular" was a sort of underground thing, which the bootlegs showed ... and it was that the concerts were far out, and trippy and neat, not that a lot of smoke was around them ... which, by DSOTM, Roger was complaining that it was too much and it might affect the performances here and there. And during THE WALL, the busts in LA were sick, but I am not sure this would have happened if RW would not have complained about it and help create a group of folks to go bust up a bunch of fans in LA, for example. The "highlight" was that after DSOTM, the fans were totally different, and those interested in the fame and song, were the ones that ruined a lot of shows, from the nice atmosphere of the earlier times before DSOTM. Complexity, btw, is not the definition of music by any stretch of the imagination, specially when it is easy for some and the same thing is difficult for others. We keep thinking that a lot of "progressive" music is not an easy pop song, and some of it might be true, but I do not think that is the way to define the music, since a lot of it includes material and touches that are related to the culture and not something that many of us, outsiders, are not exactly aware of and try to define the difference as something intricate or difficult.
As I said, the fans of the band changed from the music appreciation society to the "hit" society ... I never went to see the band because it was on radio, and I had the albums way before it was played ... in fact, in Santa Barbara, for several months DSOTM was thought to be crap and pompous, until a week later or so, it hit huge in LA thanks to a couple of really big audiences from 2 stations. All of a sudden, "Money" was enjoyed, but in LA it was more The Greatest Gig In The Sky that I remember the best ... while I did not dislike "Money" it was, for me, a come down from the MOOD stuff the band had done ... all of a sudden it was about that fan ... and I think we all resonated with that!
It was not disliking at all ... maybe a preference. By that time I was completely into the EUROPEAN/INTERNATIONAL scene, and was more interested in the far out stuff out of France, Italy, Germany and other places in Europe that everyone in "radio" seemed to ignore altogether. Sadly, I find that anyone that was "attached" to the radio song and the "hit", was the same fan that rarely ended up learning the appreciation for the rest of the music around the world! And it feels like the whole thing is defined from a radio point of view, and the European music scene, in the 1970's did not start up because of radio ... it came up because of the folks involved were attuned to the art form, a lot more than they were towards the hit ... and this is the hard part of discussing this in America ... folks haven't had "art" in their hearts for 60+ years that the government has removed assistance to public radio and most of the education systems, because the arts were too "liberal" to keep the republicans elected. And to this day, we don't do anything about it and continue electing folks that hate the arts and then some ... but they will show up dressed to the gills for the wine and cheese, of course! For me, the bands coming out with new music were far superior to what YES, PF and many other folks were doing and a lot more interesting as music, instead of just a song for radio ... and we need to fess up to that and wake up. The progressive thing (specially) was very anti-radio and experimental in its early days, and it wasn't until these became huge in the 1970's with the FM Radio in America, that the FCC made sure that all FM stations were bought by the corporate groups so no more "independent" stations were out there pushing music the corporations did not own. This Great Radio Rape in America took place in 1979/198o, and since then all of the stations became "classic" stations and the music was taped so no DJ's would open their mouth and say anything. To this day, we have not done anything about this and continue to allow the richest to buy their way into government to change the laws to help themselves ... and we can not be blind, and deaf, to the idea that things won't change that will hurt the appreciation of the arts, and in our case, the music. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 05:15
Pedro...I think you might be scaring some of these kids.  ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 09:48
Hi, It's not meant to. However, when someone is writing from a lack of perspective point of view (as I see it!!!), chances are that what is being said will be limited, and in this case, leaves behind the history of the band, for example, and the comments, then, will not be in sync with the artist at all. This is the sad side of the pop music thing, with folks in love with a lot of songs, but a disregard for the history and the work an artist has created during their time. I'm somewhat lucky that my time has been during the fights for ... many things ... in the 1960's and then later through the music that decorated the FM radio band in America, only for it to be electrocuted out of extinction by corporate America taking the stations away from their independence, and then turning them all into mindless albino noodles, and calling it "classics" which is another word for repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse ... all the products they "own" ... and no listeners give a damn. I, originally, thought the Internet would help bring back the "music" and it has done well in that regard, but so much of the Internet these days is owned by the same companies that raped the FM radio stations, that it is difficult for me to let that thought go ... maybe the day of my last breadth! Scaring folks can only happen when they are not smart enough to grow up and learn. You can't live the life of the tin drum, and get away with it, maybe for a time, but in the end, when things change, one will be lost and even more scared. Fear ... you have nothing to fear except the fear itself! I didn't create that line, but it's very true. If someone feels scared ... so be it! Who am I to change their Dorian Gray ideas? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 10:16
|
Which one's Pink? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Disconnect
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 10:55
love the metaphor & agree  ------------- "My own response to King Crimson is one of quiet terror." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 11:24
Moshkito, I did not think I needed to give a dissertation on the subject. I mean, I do have a MA in History with a concentration on the American South from the Sectionalism Period through the American Civil War (1820-1865). My secondary concentration is on the Historiography of the Cold War (1947-1989). Maybe I could have found a way to get that into the discussion about Pink Floyd. Seriously, it was a simple explanation I gave why certain bands hit it big. In music, generally, simpler music is easier to grasp. More complex music, such as lets say Stravinsky's Petrushka or Rite of Spring call for more active listening. Indian Classical music, can be even more demanding with it's use of microtones and generally not following the Western tradition of Harmony. And before you interject with there is two traditions of Indian Classical Music, I'm aware of that fact. The Northern (Hindustani) and Southern (Carnatic). So dude, it's not for lack of perspective. This is a forum. I'm not writing a book. Besides going off on some philosophical meanderings, history and you had to be there man, you just don't understand, you never disproved my original point. My advise is get off the acid. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 14:09
Hi, Sorry to disappoint you but I quit everything during the mid 70's ... specially when I got to see a bust in LA on a PF concert. I wasn't worried about getting busted, however, the attitude towards it just inhumane and animalistic to say the least ... and later got to see it first hand by folks fighting for a piece of the pig! There was no way I was gonna get stoned after what Reagan said about the elections, and the worst? He was right! Sadly it shows that you think folks that do not agree with you are stoned, and not true in their hearts and minds! Not a lot of music is is invisible and not influenced by the events around them ... the 1960's showed that really well and the 1970's showed that just as well in Europe. The only hard part of this discussion is taking the "favoritism" out of the equation, and then seeing the music for how/what it might be and/or is. I'm not sure that "you have to be there" and yeah, I was there from 1965 on through today, so to speak, and got my head beat up in Chicago when Sly didn't show up for a show, and then got frisked going to work at the Rathskeller in madison during the Kent State thing. And I tired of the music, that was ignoring it all and making sure that the meaningless hits sold, to hide all the dust under the carpet. European music, for me, was the answer and the whole scene in various countries was more artistic than otherwise, and I think it had to do with their massive history of the arts ... America has spent more time killing the arts than anyone, and today, again, one goon has removed funds from the public stations and their work ... and it goes back to when Reagan did it first ... because he didn't like the fact that these places (PBS most visible) were/are very liberal and they would hurt the republicans ... and it has been like that for 60 years, including taking much of the arts away from the lower level schools as much as possible so folks don't know the history of a lot of art ... but for me, there was another reason ... when someone said in California something that is really scary ... "let them get stoned, and I will win all the elections" ... which has happened and then some! Thus, seeing Fragile with its bits by the various members is fine with me,specially as it is against the run of what a record company wanted, but by that time, most of the bands had their own designs and ways, and it was that which made what was "art rock", that became "progressive rock" a few years later. Pop music or hit music is not a good indicator of what the arts are at all ... in general they ignore the arts. But in America too many folks are convinced that if it has a number one with it, that it is good, and worth getting. Or worse ... worth the discussion even when the music is so empty! That's when you know it's not about the arts anymore! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Themistocles
Date Posted: May 05 2025 at 23:50
I agree with this and ratings are contextual... rated compared to what and by whom? Those 3 albums are a tracery of discovery and growth. Fascinating to listen to all 3 in a row because the context is there. Ive been a professional critic for over 25 years so I quibble. ------------- Sjå, my first album in 25+ years is out now: https://jeffjahn.bandcamp.com/album/sj I am told its quite original |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 00:06
Also, congrats on your first post here, Jeff. 😎 |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 07:12
That was a frickin' AWESOME POST, Pedro! Your Reagan and Cali references/quote remind me of when I discovered that the reason pornography has been protected under the 1st Amendment was due to a judge back in the 1900s who ruled that allowing pornography to exist/be available to the masses might cut down on the population boom of the lower classes! (More masturbation = less sexual intercourse!) And I completely agree that what is popular is not necessarily indicative of how art is progressing, growing, or expanding--might even be more indicative of OTHER influences trying to shape culture/thinking of the masses! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 07:55
I apologize for the digression. :p |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 09:58
Hi, Considering the advances in medicine and what folks can do to prevent this and that ... I think the judge's line was in jest and a really good finger to a lot of religious bs!
I think this is the part of PA that hurts ... and seeing folks doing the same things that "art rock" and "progressive music" got away from in the late 1960's and early 1970's, just shows how ingrained in the commercial soup people are. Folks keep trying to get me to show a "list", or "rank" some of the things that I love so much, but, they do not understand that I simply can't ... my tastes are huge, and varied, and not centered on a favorite at all ... the one favorite that gets replaced next week with another song, showing the conceptual ability of that person's choices, maybe??? Since seeing the Great American Radio Rape of the FM band in late 1970's and how submissive and careless we have become was a sad thing ... no one gave a damn, and helped make sure that the elected folks would make sure that this could not happen again ... what they did in LA to one station, btw, should have gone all the way to the Supreme Court and a blatant attack on the freedom of speech, in this case the ART of MUSIC, and its strength ... all it showed is that some republicans knew that it was way too liberal for them to get re-elected again ... and the worst? In the following years the FCC, a republican castle and fort, voted to allow one corporation to own more than one station in any area ... thus, we could now see that in places like LA it was one corporation, in SF another, in NY, maybe two corporations ... and they were all playing the same thing! And telling everyone that it was about "the classics" ... and we didn't go to the polls to remove the liars! AND, worse, we still don't! And we allow a guy to continue assaulting your freedom of speech, specially in the arts! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 13:39
Ahh, I see that Reagan is still a Bogeyman and Trump still a Nazi to the radical left. No mention of Democrats assault on free speech and getting much of the media to suppress stories or consider them conspiracy theories if they come from the other side. No need to list them, you know what they are, you just ignore them. You allude to the 1996 Telecommunications Act, that was overwhelmingly passed by Congress and signed by a Democrat President. Why not be honest that it was not just Republicans. Side note: I'm not a fan of that law. As far as the NPR/ PBS much of it's funding does not come from the government. And I would expect no favors from one side if you suppress stories, call one side a bunch of Nazis, etc, etc, etc. If people care that much for NPR/PBS they will survive and then they can dispense with any illusions of of being unbiased and go full MSNBC. Of course they could do more fund drives, turn to commercials or ask George Soros for more money. I hate this turned into a political discussion, but congratulations Moshkito you did so. You must be a real joy to hang around. Pop music is popular throughout the world because it's easy to grasp. My other original point was despite playing music that was not commercial, Yes and ELP were very successful. I wish jazz and classical music was more popular, but it's not. There is nothing preventing me however, from finding Richard Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" or Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz." I found Plini and Animals as Leaders through just a simple internet search. Nothing prevented me from taking music classes in college back in the 80s. I nearly received a music minor taking music classes as electives and satisfying a requirement to graduate. I had the hours but, I needed a composition course, such as the Counterpoint class to receive a minor in Music. The minor was not that important. There were plenty of Art and Theater classes I could have taken. To graduate, I needed 6 hours in the Arts. I took music classes. I remember some of those classes. Rudiments of Music, Music Structure and Style I and II, Jazz Improvisation, History of Rock and History of Jazz. I took individual lessons for two semesters from a wonderful Classical Guitar instructor who had taken Master guitar classes from Christopher Parkening. Sometimes, the market speaks and it does not matter how much money or emphasis you place on any subject. MLB and USA Baseball has expended much money and much effort to get black youths to play baseball. Unlike their grandfathers who played and loved the game, there is not as much interest among this generation of black youth to play the game. However, as the percentage of blacks playing have dropped in professional baseball, the number of Hispanics and Asians have increased. Baseball is very popular in Japan, Korea, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Venezuela and other Latin American countries. However, there was never nearly as much interest in Europe, despite the number of Americans (military) who played the game. In the past, the European team that played in the Little League World Series was typically made up of American kids whose Father and/ or Mother was stationed at a military base. Boxing at one time was the second most popular sport in the US after Baseball. The 1960s through the 1980s was considered the golden age of boxing. The popularity of boxing has experienced a great decline in popularity since that time. MMA, in contrast, has become hugely popular. Sometimes it is what it is and there is no sinister or hidden agenda. My son played Baseball and played at a high level. He has the single season strikeout record at the University he graduated from. A torn Labrum cost him a chance at being drafted ( would have been late rounds). He also is a good musician. Those interests make sense because of his parents. But he also loved art ( drawing and photography). That is something he developed on his own. He took art in middle school. We found a private instructor who he took art lessons for two years. He also took an art, photography and music class in college. Again, nobody prevented him from taking any art classes or music. I think you protest to much. Classical music had its day. Jazz had it's day. Rock music it appears has had had its day as the most popular form of music. The NFL supplanted MLB Baseball as the favorite sport in the US. The NFL is a behemoth here. Soccer not so much. But, soccer reins supreme elsewhere, which is most of the world. The story how can be interesting, but sometimes it's just because the public gravitated that way because they found it more enjoyable. Nothing more or less. |
Posted By: Themistocles
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 14:18
Thank you so much. Well its a community so there's always a part that tries to develop a consensus and ratings/rankings is just a sort of epistomological discourse.... angels on the head of a pin stuff but feedback in whatever form is so important. I remember having pina coladas with the Dandy Warhols and CTT threw out a good-natured barb about me being "a scumbag critic" I laughed and I explained a professional art critic is a bit different than a music one. For music the fanbase is cultivated and you know if you are moving some people in a concert and through album listens/sales so critical response is a bit besides the point. For visual artists tons can show up for your opening and you may or may not make sales but a lot of people will be polite and say "good show", damn you with faint praise or simply lie to you. You really dont know who to believe... an established critic like myself sees so many art shows and compare similar or related things that the ability to get a contextualized response... even a negative one is very valuable and earned. A response says, you are moving the needle. I was a music critic for diesel music magazine in the 90's too. I always ask myself is this adding energy or is it just parasitic? I do feel like a place like PA is valuable. People very much care. What the ratings kinda miss is the potential energy and amplitude of an album from song to song and album to album. That's what I look for. My favorite albums are transition albums like Miles Smiles or Rush's Permanent Waves. Perhaps not each's signature efforts but you really get the sense of Becoming in them. Back to the subject, thats why I love Fragile so much... its that immanent sense of becoming. Close to the edge is a masterpiece but Fragile IS the yes album Im drawn the most to because there is this sense of immanence. Is it superestimated? I dont think so... its an amazing album and everyone on it is so inspiring especially Bruford, Squire and Howe. ... and Wakeman? geeze talk about becoming? People shout the names of famous musicians at me all the time (its silly but I get it) but I was so happy the time someone said I reminded them of Rick Wakeman, My GF loves his keyboard playing but I showed her that picture of him in a wizard's hat atop a white horse and she said... the two of you must never be in the same room together. But I digress... Fragile is just that, a fragile crystalline structure that is becoming and growing. A massive transition album not for just the band but music in general. Roundabout was the first real Prog song I heard and I loved it instantly, more than most music. That album has immense amplitude and unlocked so many other things. ------------- Sjå, my first album in 25+ years is out now: https://jeffjahn.bandcamp.com/album/sj I am told its quite original |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 14:36
|
I was going to note that we have a rule about avoiding political discussions here as they can get so heated and unpleasant -- of course sometimes the political is so important to the release and the artist and the times that one can't explore those well without delving into the political dimensions (so within reason) -- but then I see that it has moved on with the wonderful post above this. Thanks. Incidentally, I love Oregon. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 22:51
This is a good post. |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 06 2025 at 22:57
Greg, I apologize for my part in bringing politics into this thread. Back to the thread on Fragile. Yes is my favorite band and I think Fragile is just Super. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 07 2025 at 09:22
Hi, I got into the band by their previous album, when I heard some pieces on the radio ... and they were neat. While I will not say anything bad about FRAGILE, the thought/idea mentioned in these posts of the individual small pieces, is weird to my ears ... there is no true musician out there that does not try, or work some different stuff to help themselves gauge their own talent by themselves, and different stuff is always a treat, if not tricky, even though this was not exactly the first album that showed that kind of stuff. That a few fans dislike it, makes me want to say ... find another band, as this one is not for you! ROUNDABOUT is the piece I love to hate. I saw the group at the Long Beach Arena in 1972, during the TFTO tour. It was magnificent and then some ... but the crowd stayed quiet, and the band then had their break and came back with CTTE I think it was, and the crowd picked up ... a bit, not much, and an hour later they were done, and they left, and came back for the encore, which was ROUNDABOUT, and immediately everyone screamed ... I got really sad at that moment ... they had played over 2 hours of phenomenal material and everyone did a really good impression of an European audience, and the applause for TFTO was not great, but was not bad ... and I got up and left ... crying. I knew then, and there, that it wasn't about the MUSIC at all ... it was about the hit and the fans ... and I felt the fans would eventually kinda hurt a lot of bands if they were not strong enough to stand up for their music and almost all of them wilted ... you gotta give credit to Led Zeppelin, King Crimson and Frank Zappa (for example) that NEVER really gave in to the audience itself and continued doing what they did best ... AMAZE us ... Right away the media picked up on curry and then his solo albums which is the reason for trashing TFTO so his albums would look/appear better ... and to me, this was what I had seen at the Long Beach Arena. I did get RELAYER, but that was the last album I got and while I heard some things, in general, I never bothered with YES again ... there was much better and interesting music out of Europe by that time, and YES was not that important, and even ... repetitive I think. But both the YES ALBUM and FRAGILE bring back some very wonderful memories ... I played those albums to their death! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 07 2025 at 11:50
Nearly a complete disagreement with your post. First, just because a song is a big hit does not mean it's a bad song. I laugh when I watched the scene from Guardians of the Galaxy 2 when Star-Lord and Ego start talking about Looking Glass' "Brandy" being Earth's finest musical composition. My brother and I agreed that Ego and Star-Lord might be right. It's either that or Stravinsky's " Rite of Spring ", Beethoven's "9th Symphony" or Bach's " Toccata and Fugue in D minor." Nothing wrong with playing the "hits" by a band. The fact that it's the fans who bought your albums and merchandise and made you rich, I would say it would be selfish not to give back. Again, using sports as an example, Golf's Nelly Korda and Padraig Harrington have discussed that it's important to play in these Pro-Am tournaments, do meet and greets and sign autographs. It's because of the fans that allow them to become rich. They know it's important to give back. The European scene, especially when you leave out Great Britain, which you seem to do, was nowhere close to being as interesting as what was going on in North America or Great Britain in my opinion, especially in Jazz, Funk, Heavy Metal and Pop-Rock in the 70s. As far as Yes is concerned. Chris Squire has stated the reason for the individual pieces on Fragile was to save on time and money. Bill Bruford also thought another benefit to the individual pieces is that it would showcase each member. Hindsight is that my preference would have been another group piece. But, I still want to keep the "Fish" as Long Distance Runaround segues so well into Squire's track. And I like, really like "Mood for a Day." It's one of the first classical guitar pieces of music I learned. I think Bruford's piece is interesting, but not fully developed. The Wakeman and Anderson pieces I'm ambivalent. My experience with Yes is far different than yours. I remember audiences being quite enthused listening to Awaken, Southside of the Sky and Gates of Delirium, none of which would be considered "pop" tunes. But, then I never took drugs and rarely drink, so I was very aware of what was going on around me. Never cried either at any concert, although I came close once with Awaken. That one can stir the emotions. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 07 2025 at 12:27
You got to be kidding me ... few folks here discuss so much foreign music as I do. I leave out Great Britain, because AT THE TIME, there was also magnificent music elsewhere in Europe (and Japan) that is ignored because of the fan stuff here. That does not mean I dislike the hits ... you suggesting I don't, is ridiculous ... there are a lot of really great pieces out there, but the sad fact is, that not even you is capable of showing these clearly with one of the other Italian, French or German bands, and any others in Europe ... there have always been fantastic music in Europe, which has a massive history of the arts, and specially music, and you think that I leave out GB ... not really ... but you do not know that I am one of the originals that was playing "imports" before many of them became a part of the European scene.
I did not say I disliked the stuff ... I simply had to spend my money on other things I loved more, and Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze were more meaningful to my experience than YES became ... and that has nothing to do with my liking them or not. Heck, I saw them again a few years back, on what I think was Chris' last voyage through here in Oregon ... they were fine, but the cardboard hippie girls with colored hair and dressed a la SF in the mid 60's was ... way boring, and not even funny! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Big Sky
Date Posted: May 07 2025 at 14:42
Moshkito, So you talk about more foreign music. Ok, so what? I mean Rush, Yes, Genesis, Triumph, etc, etc are also foreign to me. After all, I live in the US. I'm a huge fan of Tigran Hamasyan ( Armenian), Matteo Mancuso (Italian) and Plini (Australian). I love classical guitar. John Williams (Australian), Andres Segovia (Spain), Julian Bream (England), Ana Vidovic ( Croatian), Stephanie Jones (Australian) and Xufei Yang( Chinese) to name a few guitarist I'm a fan. I've brought up classical guitar on a number of post on this forum. I'm very aware of music outside of the US and Great Britain. My job (retired) had me travel the world. It would be easier to name the Middle East countries I have not been to than the ones that I have. On one assignment I ran into Ronnie James Dio in Chelyabinsk, Russia when they were touring Eastern Europe. The band stayed at the same hotel as I did, the Hotel Victoria. Talked to his band at the bar. The next day, bassist Rudy Szarzo was having breakfast and waved me over to have breakfast with him. It's funny, he wanted to know about my job and I was more interested in talking to him about the bands he had been in, especially Quiet Riot and was Kevin Dubrow as big a jerk as had he been made out to be. In other words, I was exposed to lot of different music. At a restaurant I went to have dinner in Panama there was a guitar duo playing that sounded like they had listened to quite a bit of the great Flamenco guitarist Paco de Lucia. But, in the streets, I ran across a percussion ensemble who was playing Tamborito folk music. It was terrific. So you prefer Tangerine Dream, Klaus Shultz and I assume Kraftwerk to Yes and ELP I never really got into the electronic Prog scene despite numerous efforts. I admit their influence. But, Yes, Gentle Giant, Genesis, etc, etc were far more interesting to me and I certainly enjoyed their music more. As far as "imports" I bought a couple albums from PFM. They are an Italian Prog Rock group. You may have heard of them. I'm quite aware of Europe's massive contribution in the arts. It's far older than the US. Just in music, there is no comparison in the Classical music. Aaron Copland is probably the greatest US composer, but he pales in comparison to Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and Stravinsky. But with the Jazz scene, it's the US that has led the way with all due respect to the Gypsy Jazz scene. The Blues scene definetly favored the US. English artists such as Clapton and Page have admitted how much American blues influenced their music. Of course I have not even brought up Country and Bluegrass music. I believe the music scene in the US and especially if you keep Britain out of the equation in the 70s was far more diverse and interesting than what was going on in Europe, at least in my opinion.. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 16 2025 at 04:59
HI, Not sure that is quite fair, but the other 4 mentioned have been in the history of music for so long, that anyone else pales by comparison, and, (I sometimes think) that the more modern folks don't get enough attention probably because they are not as "traditional" as music history has made of the 4 folks that you mention. That's a thought, though! It's like all music is "defined" by those folks!
The only thing worth mentioning here is that some of the jazz musicians went to Europe to be able to play the way they wanted, and not be asked for a "favorite hit" or "song". I believe I read a comment by Miles, in relation to the recent release of some shows in Europe where he felt more freedom than in America. The movie studios owned all the recording stuff up until the 1960's and they concentrated on the fame side of things for several of their "stars" and in many ways, America has never gotten away from that idea and still lives by the top this or that, which has never been about the art form itself at all. The European Jazz scene, for me, was similar to the modern classical side of things ... very different and experimental and, as you say "Gypsy Jazz", though in many ways the Gypsy music stuff out of Spain, and Hungary is not exactly the most adventurous music, though the vocals seem to be the part that is adventurous ... I may need to listen more to this, as I can not say I am really well versed in this, even being born in Portugal.
No doubt or question there, though I (personally) do not find Clapton as interesting and musical as Page ... but I think that is because of the vast style differences, and how Page used all his abilities instead of seemingly being stuck in one thing. Page branched out. I'm not sure that Clapton wants to branch out at all, and quite possibly, his palate is limited by "tradition". Page has the edge here as he had played in so many different things at first and got a lot of very different musical experiences, that probably/likely went much further in helping determine things for Page, than what Clapton grew up with or did. Page was a studio wiz ... prior to LZ.
I would never question that, and often say that America is about 3 or 4 countries ... with their own traditions. The main difference for me, is that in Europe, even with the cultural differences, music continued to expand and develop into something else, whereas here, the country and western music has been really slow and likely/probably way too controlled by a few labels or studios. Hard to say, but sometimes I look at Garth Brooks and think ... this is progressive, and then I hear the next person ... it's back to the same thing in the tradition. That is not always the case in Europe, and though the cultural parts tend to continue, many of them have been used in expanding music palates, and the perfect example is how Spanish Guitar and music, was also used in rock music, and really well ... to the point that we might not even consider the actual cultural influence because it sound, and mixes, really well. My roommate of old, should have gotten a gold record for PFM, Banco and Le Orme ... to give you an idea of how much we played all the stuff going back to 1974 ... I think I posted somewhere around PA a thread that listed all the stuff played on Space Pirate Radio in 1974, and the list is not complete, but really shows you how much of Europe was being represented, and Guy and I had the largest collection of English/Great Britain stuff you have ever seen ... it all got played and then some! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 18 2025 at 02:04
For me, Long Distance Runaround doesn't sound nearly as good without The Fish following it. I just consider them like one single song. And Mood for a Day is a pretty little piece of music in it's own right. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 18 2025 at 02:07
I'm actually not a big fan of The Yes Album. The only song I really like on it is Starship Trooper, and then I like the Keys to Ascension live version so much better, that I wouldn't mind not ever listening to the original again. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: May 18 2025 at 02:16
I do love Fragile, my favorite along with CttE... I think they actually make a very nice set, almost like a double album, and certainly prefer to listen to them back to back. Yeah, those songs are the best, though I do like Long Distance/Fish better in the studio version. I just think the live one is expanded too long, loosing the melodies I loved from the beginning. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: May 18 2025 at 05:00
|
My fave tends to shift between The Yes Album and Close To The Edge. Fragile seems like the natural stepping stone between the two and furthermore contains some absolute classics of progressive rock. Not even sure what the title of this thread means which incidentally makes it very prog. A tip of the hat to Fragile perchance? Even so here’s to the old boy  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |