W. Allen against the current paradigm
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Printed Date: July 25 2025 at 18:24
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Topic: W. Allen against the current paradigm
Posted By: Fercandio46
Subject: W. Allen against the current paradigm
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 15:11
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Over time, fashions, customs, and tastes change, both on a personal level and on a social and collective level. Several paradigms have changed; it's cyclical, and every so often one is replaced by another, and a momentary value judgment, without the proper perspective of the passage of time, cannot be valid. As a child and teenager, Woody Allen was an icon of good cinema, an exponent that intellectual comedy was possible, a prestigious director beyond personal tastes, but over time, the significance of accusations in his personal life, plus the "Me Too" phenomenon, contributed to his either being canceled or falling into oblivion. Now then...do his most acclaimed works, such as Bananas, Love and Death, Annie Hall, Manhattan, Interiors (the first of his Bergmanian dramas), Stardust Memories, Zelig, Hannah and Her Sisters, The Purple Rose of Cairo, Crimes and Misdemeanors, or Husbands and Wives, lose value? The phenomenon is even more complex because even among his followers, he has suddenly become tarnished, not because they condemn him for his personal problems, but as if the social imaginary and demands have intruded on us, who also live in this society and consume its media, whether we like it or not. So, do you still like your own favorite Allen films, do you keep revisiting them, or has your taste changed? Which are your favorites? Can you separate the artist from the person? I've already mentioned my favorite classics, and among the more recent ones I also like Deconstruction Harry, Midnight in Paris, Magic in the Moonlight, Irrational Man, and Rainy Day in New York. |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 15:55
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Regardless of how he is seen, his movies will live on. It's art vs. artist, and he will always be remembered as a brilliant filmmaker. And yes I often enjoy his older work--- Radio Days is a favorite, as well as Crimes & Misdemeanors, Broadway Danny Rose, A Midsummer's Night Sex Comedy, Play it Again Sam, and Hannah. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 16:21
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I have no problem separating the art from the artist. Eg: I'm atheist but that doesn't take anything from the fact that I enjoy Neal Morse's works. ------------- 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 16:45
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Agree with David. Naming faves is near impossible, but my most recent re-watches were Manhattan and Radio Days, and I still loved both of those. I fell out of touch somewhere around "Whatever Works" and haven't seen much of his recent work. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: May 26 2025 at 21:14
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I don't have the same fun watching his recent movies, but I have so much fun watching at least 3 times his earlier stuff. I don't care much about all the polemics around his personal life. It doesn't change my perception of the man. He is a good director who loves his work so much that he can't stop making movies, to the point of making the same movies in a different city because his wife wants to travel... ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 17:15
| Play It Again, Sam, is terrific, one of those films he didn't officially direct...but it's clear he was more than involved in the script. Diane Keaton and Tony Roberts are amazing, and as always, one hilarious situation after another, where there's also a very deep undercurrent, like the absurdity, complexity, and contradiction in relationships. Another example is The Front, about the McCarthy era, directed by Martin Ritt in 1976, but with Allen's full imprint. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 17:25
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^ PiAS was a play as well. The actual Bogart quote is "Play it, Sam", but the popularized version is 'Play it again, Sam' which is not in Casablanca Little fact: the interior of his apartment in S.F. is not the same building as the exterior which is at 15 Fresno St. on the hill in North Beach. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 17:42
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Annie Hall with diminishing returns by Zelig. The movies he made after that are either derivative of his older movies and just not good. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 17:48
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^ Zelig is an underappreciated masterpiece... and Broadway Danny Rose, Hannah and Her Sisters, Radio Days, Crimes & Misdemeanors, all at the top of his game and all post-Zelig. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 22:32
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Hi, I don't really know how I feel about his films ...one day things flow really nicely, and then, it feels forced and not funny, and sometimes boring, but there are some bits here and there that are kinda far out, and weird, but you can't help laugh at it, and one of them, I actually had to stop watching, and pause the film, because it was nuts. In the background, and not getting much attention at first is a group of folks, that ... all of a sudden break into a sort of song and dance, as if they were an old fashioned Greek Chorus ... and while a lot of those things are mostly known if you are a theater person, and well versed film person, stuff like that adds a touch that is neat. The other side of it, is how so many actors want to work with him, and did ... and I'm not sure if it is the freedom to create a character which can be molded by a line, or event in the story, and at that point, I'm not sure that he likes playing the "director" and he allows the actors to flow and almost all of them come off smooth and really good, something that is always far out to watch, specially if you are into theater and film, for the art of it, and the acting, and directing, rather than the entertainment value, at which point I probably would say, that this director is not a good one for you. But, in the end, he is going to be remembered, as he has been a part of a lot of things in the history of comedy, though not as widely known or appreciated and many times he stayed in the background, unlike some of his films. He has at least a dozen awards for Best Screenplay, at least 6 or 7 awards for Best Director and even at least one as an actor. Count 4 Academy Awards, 10 Awards in England, 2 Golden Gloves and 1 Grammy. That is not the life of a bad director and writer ... that's a life of incredible ability and talent. Annie Hall might become his best, as he won Director and Screenplay, but Hannah and Her Sisters and Midnight in Paris also got him awards. I think his best work is behind him, and he probably should be taking it easy as he is approaching 90 in November ... and maybe have some fun playing a little jazz here and there ... he's well known for that in New York. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: May 28 2025 at 23:01
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Back in my student days in the 70's there were two directors whose films you went to see without question - Woody Allen & Mel Brooks. Looking back now at the WA films now I find them less satisfying as he seems obsessed with being on camera for the majority of his films, and whether it's 'Take the Money and Run', or 'Annie Hall' or whatever it only ever seems to be about showcasing his neuroses. ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: May 29 2025 at 00:56
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^ I don't think so-- his casting is excellent and he always gives his co-stars plenty of camera time and good lines. Besides, sometimes the director/writer will do the best job in a certain role. Further, in at least his last ten films he is not included in the cast at all. As for Mel Brooks, the best thing he ever did was Young Frankenstein and it was Gene Wilder who wrote & starred in that film. Blazing Saddles, High Anxiety, Spaceballs, Silent Movie, Robin Hood:Men in Tights, don't hold up at all. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: May 29 2025 at 01:35
I agree that he continued to make consistently good films for the decade following Zelig (I would add Purple Rose of Cairo to your list), but Bullets Over Broadway was the last one I made a point of seeing when it came out. I have seen a few of his films since then, but nothing has really stuck with me. Separating the art from the artist is a contentious issue these days, but few things in life are entirely clear cut and Woody Allen's questionable private life doesn't stop me from appreciating his work, any more than Roman Polanski's much more problematic past behaviour prevents me from enjoying Chinatown. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Atavachron wrote:Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 29 2025 at 06:57
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I wonder if the Allen fans here are into an Allen-adjacent director named Henry Jaglom. His work spans roughly the same years; he's a tad younger I think. Very prolific. A similar style of filmaking to Woody but perhaps a bit more romantic drama and a bit less obvious punchline humor. If anyone wants to try him, I think his best films were Always, Someone to Love, Venice Venice, Last Summer in the Hamptons, and Deja Vu. But like Woody, everyone's faves will vary. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 29 2025 at 07:05
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https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/remarkable-career-of-the-great-indie-maverick-henry-jaglom/" rel="nofollow - https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/remarkable-career-of-the-great-indie-maverick-henry-jaglom/ ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 30 2025 at 17:58
Hi, Of all things he did, I think his series on Orson Welles is probably the one that would be most interesting .... however, I have not seen any of these, but a small clip or two, where Orson lets loose his mouth and it is nasty and dirty ... and Wiki saying that some of these were edited, at least you know why, but it appears that Henry Jaglom was more interested in the real Orson Welles, than an imaginary one ... and you know what? Bad words or not, that would be neat to listen to and watch! Orson Welles would have spanked one person really good by now! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 02:07
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Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 02:11
| Henry Jaglom's film starring Orson Welles, and also Tuesday Weld and Jack Nicholson, is A Safe Place from 1971. It's one of those unknown gems, with a very particular, almost dreamlike atmosphere, a blend of romantic comedy but too experimental in its storytelling to be sugarcoated, which is welcome. It's hard to define its theme...since it's partly that reverie into which we are immersed by childhood memories and their often invisible influence on our present lives...it's definitely worth a look. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 04:39
Is WA still making movies nowadays (when you say "recent") or are you talking of his later period? TBH, when younger, I didn't appreciate Woody (and still don't really) so i missed a lot of his movies (what a plethora he made too), and generally preferred the ones when he wan't in front of the camera In the 90's, I started appreciating him more and one of his funniest (with Alan Alda >> small Time Crooks, maybe?) really convinced me that he was worth looking out for. As for his private life, I don't really care and from whatever little I know of that drama, probably find Farrow just as guilty as he is (I will probably get heat for this).... to the point that for a few years, given the witch/sorcerer hunt and boycott engaged against him, I made a point of seeing some of his movies as a resistance gesture.
I don't find Polanski more problematic than Allen, TBH. Sure, the 70's incident happened, but given the sexual liberation context of the decade, plenty of abuse (decency frontiers breaches) happened and lingered well into the 80's and midway through the 90's (Miiiiiichael, anyone???) Just like for David Hamilton, 60/70's mothers threw their own the daughters into their (grubby) paws and asked them to "make them stars". And TBH, Hamilton's erotic arts (or soft porn if you wish) catered mainly to women, because it was to corny for men (never saw one of his posters in men's bedroom) or not "hard" enough for them. In Roman's case, it happened only once in the US during the 70's (AFAIK), because whatever is happening in France's film industry against him is mostly fabricated, to make an example of him. I could give at least three or four cases of really awful actresses that got repeated roles (they even married the director), probably at the expense of much better actresses. Does Jimmy Page get heat because of Lorie Maddox??? But then again, the common "wisdom" (sort of speak, uh?) for decades was that actresses voluntarily slept with the director to get the lead role they wanted. IMHO, directors probably crawled under female propositions in that frame, and since there were only one or two (main) roles availbale, there were a lot of disappointed candidatures, who are probably out for revenge. Of course, Weinstein took that away those sexual propositions from the directors in the 90/00's, and he added violence. May he rot in jail, ad vitam eternam. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 09:05
I think that this is a misrepresentation, or at least it goes against my experience (maybe because of being in Italy and not in the US). In Italy his older films are regularly on TV and cinema and the new ones are shown, too. He's not "cancelled" at all. I'd be surprised if Italy were that different from most other countries in this respect. The major reason why he isn't as big anymore as he once was is in my view that his newer films aren't so good anymore for quite some time (of course I don't know all of them but from the few I've seen I was very underwhelmed). Sometimes it looks like there's far more complaints about Cancel Culture than actual cancelling. Other than that, for me personally his personal life or what I know about it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of his best films (this seems to be the vast majority opinion here and actually in most places, not that much hunger for cancellations then), which for me are Zelig, Radio Days, Manhattan. I still loved Shadows and Fog, but afterwards nothing more. He just overdid his thing. ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 15:06
Ok, so his movies from the last couple of decades that I've seen, are not on par with his classics. But that seemingly happens to at least 90% of directors/artists. I mean Francis Ford Coppola's iconic works are still considered timeless classics. I believe that if there was no controversy or rumours attached to Allen's name, he would have been considered a greater artist. He would have been talked about more. I think he would have been considered a living legend and handed out prices merely for being alive (so to speak). Instead, "in Hollywood" he is quietly overlooked. Well, that's my impression (regardless of what I think about the rumours and accusations) -I'll admit I too change my perception of an artist if they've done something "problematic" (it depends on the "problem" of course). I just can't help it. But my ideal is to seperate the art from the artist. It doesn't seem like the internet share that ideal. -Hannah and Her Sisters is my favorite no doubt, and I think among his overlooked/underreated: Bullets Over Broadway is kind of genius. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 15:38
Fair enough, except that there's so much complaining about cancel culture that they'd have a lot of cancelling to do to keep up with that.
I don't dispute that. Of course everybody is free to not appreciate his work anymore because of this, and of course it happens. That doesn't amount to "cancelling" though. (And I don't dispute that there have been attempts, but I don't think "cancelling" describes appropriately what has actually happened.) ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 16:02
I could be wrong (my perception could be skewed), but Woody was never part of the Hollywood crowd. He always stayed in NYC and never needed LA to meddle in his art. Not that LA would be giving PC lessons to NYC crowds anyways. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 13 2025 at 21:08
Hi, Always thought of the LA/Hollywood thing as the place where money was wasted by rich people that had nothing better to do with their money, and one of the worse things ... each film had to have 500 employees at least so there was enough money to go around. NY budgets were a bit different, but they were not into the wasting the money as much as Hollywood, and they allowed smaller folks to do work, however, they were not going to let WA get away, since he could easily I might add, go to France and get money for his next film, and they get the distribution rights, which would be a huge loss if all of a sudden the film does really well. I suppose it would be easier to let WA have what he needed for a film and leave it at that. As of right now, WA is not on my radar for any film ... there are too many things I would like to watch that I can't and on Amazon all the WA films are not cheap! So I end up watching something else, even some South Korean film or other that is quite riske when it comes to a lot of things. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: July 14 2025 at 18:20
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Regarding WA's "cancellation," of course, it's not with official notice, but rather a perception. Several actors who worked with him have said they wouldn't do it again, or were unaware of what "happened," but they were...not those of his firm core from the classic period, but later. Most of the directors of the past with great works under their belt do not maintain that level of talent in a homogeneous way throughout their lives, perhaps an exception is Kubrick, beyond personal tastes, then Allen is no exception, it seems almost impossible to make works of art throughout your life, however for me there are many notable ones, or moments Beyond the fact that even the greats repeat obsessions and discourses, from Scorsese to Almodóvar, Wenders, and Fellini. I think Allen has slowly and subtly introduced variations on his stereotypes, perhaps too subtle. He has become increasingly dark and pessimistic about the human condition, and he expresses this through comedy and his usual gimmicks. But he remains an author with something to say, not always "more of the same," in my opinion. In Melinda & Melinda (1994) he tells the same story and with the same characters (although different actors) from both perspectives, the dramatic and the comic, making it clear how one can choose to live the same things that happen to him from different approaches. In Magic in the Moonlight (2014), behind the sophisticated and funny facade, a famous, sarcastic and cynical magician is led to believe something completely different from his lifelong convictions, and in that field he even takes the spectators along with him! In Midnight in Paris there are also new elements in his discourse, how human beings yearn for and idealize what they do not have, in Irrational Man (2015) shielded in a pseudo-police story, philosophical questions are hidden that question nature itself. Already in Sweet and Lowdown (1999), Sean Penn plays an excellent jazz guitarist who leaves much to be desired as a person ... but when he plays he elevates himself and transcends his nature, reaching the hearts of more virtuous people. Of course, Scorsese has Raging Bull and Taxi Driver, just as Woody Allen has Annie Hall, Manhattan, Hannah and Her Sisters, and Crimes and Misdemeanors, and even if some later films have merits that aura of classicism, at least for those who lived through those films at a certain point in their lives... there's no comparison. It always was that way and will continue to be. But evidently, the artist is stronger, his work than his life, at least for certain people from several generations who grew up with all those influences that made us who we are. No one can impose anything on us, least of all a cancellation resulting from a certain reigning paradigm with an expiration date. I also thought about the Polanski case because there are some similarities, and I think the same as Allen: The work is stronger. |