Selling England by the pound or The Lamb?
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Printed Date: August 24 2025 at 06:47
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Topic: Selling England by the pound or The Lamb?
Posted By: Fercandio46
Subject: Selling England by the pound or The Lamb?
Date Posted: August 20 2025 at 21:12
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When Genesis arrived at Selling England by the pound it seemed to have reached a limit that was difficult to surpass, or so it seemed. When the following year came out of Peter Gabriel's head The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, a change occurred in Genesis' music, it was not the same Symphonic Rock of classical influences... it was that and something more, more immediate, aggressive, provocative, a conceptual work that at the time divided the waters, since on the one hand there was Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, as a first stage, Selling England with its high compositional and interpretative peaks, in addition to its approach to traditional English folklore seemed to move the margins, and the quintet sounded oiled as never before. But it wasn't just the music that was changing. The recording at Headley Grange, where Led Zeppelin had previously recorded, was shaken by Gabriel's repeated absences (due, among other things, to his project with William Friedkin). The rest of the band had to compose a lot of instrumental music, and based the lyrics on American cultural imagery to differentiate themselves from the previous album. But back to music... today I like both, and Genesis is a band I love. I even sometimes recognize who composed each part, Banks' arrangements, for example. However, for me, they are two distinct phenomena, hence this discussion. When I heard "Selling England," I instantly liked it, as did "Dancing with the Moonlight," and its a cappella opening, "Firth of Firth," and that guitar solo by Steve Hackett in a state of grace. "After the Ordeal" is very dear to my heart, an instrumental that, for me, contains what wisdom captured in music should be, almost like a revelation. Hackett always had a way of composing that was synonymous with a narrative literary format. I hear his classic compositions as an introduction, a middle, and an end. I'm referring to his musical interpretation, of course. The Cinema Show should already be in museums because it's so exemplary, only matched perhaps by its live version with Bruford on the drum duet. On the other hand, my first approach to The Lamb... shocked me, it wasn't the same! What was that Back in NYC? And one day... I loved that song, I turned up the volume on my system almost to the maximum! I couldn't stop listening to In the Cage, that bass line by Mike Rutherford, who has contributed so much to the band... (remember the bass part in The Fountain of Salmacis) definitely, besides being a great composer, he is an unjustly forgotten bassist. And The Lamia... another epic solo by Steve Hackett! Do you listen to one more often than the other? What was your impression when you first heard them? Did you notice a change in the composition between them? I often get the impression of being in front of two different works of art. 
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Replies:
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 20 2025 at 21:54
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Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 20 2025 at 23:12
Thank you for your kind participation. It speaks volumes about the person! |
Hrychu wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 21 2025 at 03:00
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^^^^ never mind the Polish troll from the Peanut Gallery
I hardly listen to classic Genesis anymore, because I know the albums by heart. I'll be drawing a parallel with Charisma's labelmate VdGG for this analysis. But you're right, SEBTP and Lamb are very different beasts (almost not the same band anymore) and indeed the Transatlantic shift is predominant: from the modern Hypgnosis artwork of the Lamb (compared to the whimsical English feel of the four previous albums), you're warned immediately that the musical world has changed, along with the cultural references in the storylines. And there is very little pastoral/folk ambiances in The Lamb. Lamb is urban and brutal, IMHO, despite the fantasy interventions (The Lamia & such). But what really strikes me in The Lamb's production, that is very different to what J Anthony had done since Tresspass. Indeed, I always found that that the band & JA made some odd sonic choices in recording technique & effects, as if Charisma's budgets for Genesis (and their other acts) didn't allow for "bigger sounds". I can find some of those same sonic weirdness in VdGG's The Least, H To He and Pawh Hearts. And they also shared P Whitehead for the sleeves. For The Lamb, Burns, Hitchings and Eno (he did more than some "Enossifications", IMHO) worked drastically differently giving a much more profound/deeper sound - which I find it to be also the case for Godbluff and Still Life as well. Not to mention that artworks of GB, SL and WR are also very different to Whitehead's fantasy stuff. Though those albums (and Quiet Zone) are not done by Hypgnosis, one can almost imagine they might've been inspired by their style. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 21 2025 at 08:01
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With Genesis it doesn't get better as a song than "Cinema Show" for me. "Firth of Fifth" is great and I like "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight" very much and other music. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway has been the most important Genesis album to me, and a search for that album led to me deeply exploring Prog. I rarely listen to Genesis now partially as I feel that I know the music so well and I moved on to other things. 20 and more years ago was when I would listen to Genesis the most. I heard music from The Lamb Dies Down on Broadway at a closing show party at a playhouse in maybe 1993, and loved it. It wouldn't be until the internet was a big things for me that I found the album. In fact, it was specifically the short instrumental "Hairless Heart" that I had fallen for and was searching for. I found it on amazon music samples I think eventually. Although I could have chosen a better representative of Genesis I made for a list of six tracks per year, I chose that because of how significant that had been to me. And my search for that played a big part in leading me here. While that important track to me has no vocals, I think of The Lamb as more of Gabriel album than others, and to me it is Genesis' "best". Trespass is a another album I have loved, by the way. So The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is the most important Genesis album to me, and the one I would most want to keep. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 21 2025 at 08:08
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When I listen to Genesis I mostly listen to Live (1973) and Seconds Out. Genesis studio albums are all somewhat inconsistent to me with some tracks I can very well do without. The live albums have highlight after highlight. Selling England and The Lamb are no exceptions to this. Now "Dancing With the Moonlit Knight" is spectacular and not on any regular live album, so I may play that, and The Lamb as a whole is an interesting project with many highlights, even though I hardly feel like listening to it from beginning to end these days. Assessed as a pair of subsequent albums though I love that they are so different and the versatility the band shows. They are both great despite the odd thingy on them I don't like. If I have to choose, there's a slight advantage for Selling England maybe. ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: August 21 2025 at 10:40
| Pound |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 21 2025 at 11:05
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Selling England is their "CTTE" moment maybe. Accessible, melodic, more traditional. Lamb is their "Topographic/Relayer" moment. Dense, less accessible, more challenging. Speaking more of approach and goals here, not that Genesis and Yes albums sound alike song-wise. I like Selling England more on the front end, but I find the Lamb is more of a grower that will keep getting better over time, like the Yes albums I mentioned. Lamb cannot be assimilated and memorized as easily and thus remains more interesting to the mind. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 11:56
Absolutely...thanks for the contribution! Something different was already palpable with Eno's work. And it's true that there was also a huge leap between Van der Graaf's Pawn Hearts and Godbluff and Still Life (two of my favorites). The importance of the record label is no small feat, whether for or against. |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 12:09
There's a bootleg of Genesis live at the University Sports Center in Montreal in 1974, where Tony Banks not only plays the entire Firth of Fifht piano intro, but also does the entire Dancing with the Moonlight Knight! |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 12:13
Great comparison to Tales and Relayer from Yes, they also took a lot of risks in making such work, plus I believe that "once experimental, always experimental." |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 12:22
They're both good, but in such different ways! There could even be two different ways to enjoy them. Despite everything, The Lamb is like Gabriel's seminal work, which even influenced his early solo work. Trespass is also very important, and a different band, isn't it? Phil Collins must have really liked "White Mountain" because he often played it live, even though it wasn't from the era he was in. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 12:43
Agree, and I did now know that Collins often played "White Mountain". Great song, imo, and the first I think of when I think of Trespass. Well, actually that along with Visions of Angels, The Knife and Dusk, and Stagnation... Hmm, never mind, lack of sleep. Incidentally, much as I like A Trick of a Tail and Wind & Wuthering (and actually have really loved those albums), the Peter Gabriel era Genesis period is my favourite and I still think it's good that he left to form his own solo career. The Lamb did influence his later work and I think leaving really gave him a chance to find new heights and excel. When I think Genesis was releasing very mediocre music, and Collins (who I like) was releasing schmaltz (and Mike and the Mechanics was not my bag), Peter Gabriel was still making interesting progressive music. To each their own, however. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 13:07
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Both Pound & Lamb are imperfect, if only because of MFM on the former, but that double concept album is way too long (like The Wall was too). A lot of junk on the second disk, especially on the D-side (nothing worth saving, IMHO). here's is how i would've cut it down to a single CD disc (but still too long for Lp, coz it clocks in at just under 60-minutes) 1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (4:50) 2. Fly on a Windshield (4:23) 3. Broadway Melody of 1974 (0:33) 5. In the Cage (8:15) 6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (2:45) 9. Counting Out Time (3:42) 10. The Carpet Crawlers (5:15) 11. The Chamber of 32 Doors (5:40) 2. The Waiting Room (5:24) 3. Anyway (3:07) 5. The Lamia (6:57) 7. The Colony of Slippermen (8:13) ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 13:56
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^ I wonder if a better way might be to edit down the tracks to make a shorter release as well as perhaps removing some songs? The short instrumental "Hairless Heart" is what most caught my attention when I first heard the album at a closing party for a play. As for me, while one can skip tracks easily, I would rather have the whole thing as is, and The Wall too I would not wish to remove music from. One man's trash is another man's treasure. For some less is more, I like more (well, not more expensive anyway and double albums have been more costly). Heck, give me bonus tracks on top of it. One can always skip what one doesn't like or make one's own mixes. When I was 19 I made a mix-tape of Yes where I tried to shorten the songs, like get rid of the widdly-fiddly bits from "Heart of the Sunrise". ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 14:53
Mmmmhhhh!!!... Hairless Heart was a difficult choice to suppress, cos I like it... But, even if it's short, it could be reduced at half its length, as it repeats itself halfway though. And it's not essential Genesis, as they've done that a few times before and after. ... and in Hackett's album (it's "there" on Acolyte). For The Wall, I would first remove everything on the C-side between Hey You and Numb (I would actually stop Numb at the first half, because the second is just a repeat). I know that in the storyline, most of the tracks are essential to the story (as in The Lamb), but who really needs Vera Lynn and Bring The Boys? Unlike Lamb, there is some essential stuff on the D-side of The Wall though. (that Trial track is awesome) ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 16:40
It's true that when everyone was starting to change, Gabriel continued with his four volumes on his personal crusade... so to speak. And I'm glad it's been that way. So many things have been said about Phil Collins, but I have a lot of respect for his past... there are some Genets who don't change and follow a path with a certain logic (like Hammill, for example) and others who change until they're nothing like themselves, and one Collins was the bearded bohemian who played in Brand X, or who, when Gabriel left, suggested they continue as an instrumental band! However, his first two solo albums are the albums of a drummer, I say that as a compliment. Full of the soul and Mowtown sound he always loved. Regarding Genesis, I find traces of its DNA up to Duke, which, despite being uneven, contains very interesting parts. And even in We Can't Dance, I find a desire to recreate instrumental passages like they used to. Although objectivity isn't very present there because I listened to it as a teenager! |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 16:54
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Posted By: Fercandio46
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 17:26
| Regarding The Lamb... I also like monumental works, but it's also true that the final section loses a bit of power compared to the rest. Maybe the music called for one thing, and the story another. It's a complex story with an interpretive ending, and perhaps it didn't call for an epic finale like Supper's Ready in Foxtrot. Hand in hand with the imagery suggested by the lyrics. But it's just a theory. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: August 23 2025 at 18:53
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Sorry for posting the exact same thing I posted a few days ago. Progarchives is acting extremely buggy currently and half of its GUI is broken so I somehow missed my old post. xd -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 24 2025 at 01:47
^^^Oddly enough I find the forum more stable this week, but have problems loading correctly the database's pages (the pictures don't show up)
mmmmhhh!!!!... Didn't know Collins played white Mountains either. Though oddly recorded (once more), it's my second fave on Tresspass afer The Knife. The Lamb's concept is 100% authorship of PG (unmlike the previou albums where the lyrics were created by many of them), but he left the music to the other four. Though I suspect that with his text to adapt on their music, I guess The Gabe acted as a composer as well. Unlike many, I don't see much a link with Peter's solo works with Genesis, except on the odd track like Moribund. What would ne that "crusade" you speak of. As for Trick and Wurhering (the latter is not nearly as strong, but remove one soppy song (YOSW), and you got another excellent album). The thing is that despite their romantic artworks (Hypgnosis somehow went against their owb grain to set up those, whereas Lamb was typically up their alley), the odd sonic productions choices of yesteryears were gone. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |