Lists with a twist!
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1460
Printed Date: May 16 2025 at 02:54
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Topic: Lists with a twist!
Posted By: The Hemulen
Subject: Lists with a twist!
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 17:51
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Here's a few album lists - some obvious, some less so. Feel free to pick apart my choices and tell me I'm a fool.
1. Yes - Close to the Edge
10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Kevin Ayers - Whatevershebringswesing
10 Disgustingly Overrated Prog Albums: 1. Spock's Beard - Snow
10 Progressive Near Misses: 1. Frank Zappa - Hot Rats So... there we are! Your turn! |
Replies:
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 20:09
A very wide ranging - eclectic even - choice. Although it seems impossible to anchor you down to liking any particular form of prog. Bemused by the likes and dislikes - for instance I prepared to argue there is a progression (i.e. prog/jazz to jazz rock to jazz rock/RIO), in the Caravan/Soft Machine/Henry Cow albums listed above. |
Trouserpress wrote:Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 20:57
Well, to keep Ivan happy, I won't say you're ignorant... however I will say that I hope the bird of paradise poops in your trousers. ------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 21:24
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Of course he's not an ignorant, just a misguided prog' fan.
But worst of all: Anything recorded by Genesis... ever, Overrated? Holy God, I think I heard everything Iván |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 21:46
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Trousertrout is making a statement. It's his to defend. Too bad he didn't trash Marillion, Cert would be oh-so-gentle, eh? Actually, I think it's a pretty good list, except for some of the over-rated bands/albums. Is Traffic prog? Hmm.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 22:02
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Yes Danbo, the list is pretty decent (except the overrated zone), I totally agree with Hamburger Concerto being absolutely underrated, it's a masterpiece and by far the best Focus album, I can't understand why so few people ever mention it. Iván |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 23:09
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All: It is interesting that Trouser brings up Traffic. In my review of Caravan's "Grey and Pink," I note that there are large sections that sounds like they were lifted directly from Low Spark, including the exact same "ultra-fuzzed" organ sound. And I note in a parenthetical aside that Traffic should be looked at in this regard... Re Trouser's lists, I gotta agree with Ivan re Genesis: obviously, Trouser has some deep-seated neurosis against them... My lists might look something like this: 11 Undisputed Prog Masterpieces: 1. Yes - Close to the Edge 10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Klaatu - Hope 10 Progressive Near Misses: 1. Tull - Crest of a Knave Re overrated albums, I take the fifth... Peace. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 23 2004 at 23:47
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My personal list: True Masterpieces 1. Genesis – The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway 10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Genesis – Nursery Cryme 10 Overrated albums: 1. Anything by The Beatles except Abbey Road Don't believe in nearly misses, or you get it or not, as simple as that. Iván |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 00:54
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10 Indisputable Prog Masterpieces: 1. Yes - Close to the Edge 4. ELP - Tarkus 5. Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick 6. King Crimson - Lark's Tongues in Aspic 7. Gentle Giant - Octopus 8. Soft Machine - Bundles 9. Gong - Gazuese 10. Manfred Mann's Earthband - Nightengales and Bombers
10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Echolyn - As The World 7. Alice Cooper - Welcome to My Nightmare 8. Queen - Queen II 9. Golden Earing - Radar Love 10. The Beatles - Rubber Soul |
Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 01:14
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10 Undisputed Prog Masterpieces: 1. Yes - Close to the Edge 2. Rush - Hemispheres 3. Camel - Snow goose 4. Genesis - Foxtrot ; ; ; 5. Genesis - Selling 6. Tull - Thick as a Brick 7. PFM - Photos of ghost 8. Triumvirat - Spartacus 9. Wakeman - 6 wives of the Big H8 10. Renaissance - Turn of a card
10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Happy the man - Happy the man 2. Happy the man - Crafty hands 3. Frank Zappa - Studio Tan 4. Collage - Moonshine 5. Roger Waters - Amused to death 6. IQ - Subterranea, Ever and Seventh house 7. Jadis - More than meets the eye 8. Rush - Signals 9. Anthony Phillips - Wise after the event 10. Eloy - Planets
10 Criminally overrated albums: 1.Yes - Tales from topographic oceans 2. Most of the Van Der Graaf records 3. All the Floyd records of the Barrett era 4. ELP - Pictures at an exhibition 5. Genesis - Lamb lies down on Broadway 6. All the Porcupine Tree albums 7. All the Tool albums 8. All the Neu! albums 9. All the Godspeed you black emperor albums 10. King Crimson - Red |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 01:17
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Greenback... have you heard all the Porcupine Tree, Neu!, Tool and Godspeed You Black Emperor albums? |
Posted By: Swinton MCR
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 06:16
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Prog Rock Classics 1. Selling England, The lamb, Foxtrot (Genesis) Notable Mentions 1. Trespass/Nursery Cryme/Trick of the tail/ Wind & Wuthering (Genesis) No overrated - Taste is personal - most people will only agree with ------------- Play me my song, here it comes again |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 06:40
I would disputable one or two or three of those  being bloody minded!!!! |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 07:55
Being a scaredy-cat, I'm taking the fifth on the whole subject - also I'd only get angry if I started reacting to that which I don't agree with......... ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: dude
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 08:04
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I TOOK A FIFTH LAST NIGHT AND THEN ANOTHER ONE!!! 10 YEAR OLD SCOTCH.........SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTH!!! AS TO THE LISTS,EACH TO HIS OWN.FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT MAY BE TRUE BUT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I HEAR DARK SIDE OF THE MOON I JUST CANT HELP THINKING..... ITS A BLOODY CLASSIC!! FOR MY MONEY FREEFALL WAS THE ONLY GOOD TRACK ON MIRAGE OUCH!!!...WHO THREW THAT STONE!?
P.S WHAT ABOUT SHEIK YERBOUTI!! MAYBE YOU SHOULD STAY WITH YOUR MAMMA(MAMMA)!! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 08:33
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dude! I threw that stone! Freefall, only good track on Mirage? Huh!, I dont know..darn Aussies. Anyway, Sheik Yerbouti Dark side of the moon is a classic in my book too. I dont think its like any other Floyd album. Despite being preoccupied with death and despair it has a more commercial feel than alot of their other stuff. I guess death sells.. I cant be bothered to put together another list of my own. I've done so many lists on this forum all saying the same thing..whinge moan... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Great album. Good choice.Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 09:18
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"10 Disgustingly Overrated Prog Albums: 1. Spock's Beard - Snow ; 2. King Crimson - Lark's Tongues In Aspic ; 3. Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans 4. Soft Machine - Third ; 5. Rick Wakeman - Journey To The Centre Of The Earth ; I agree with nos. 1 and 10. Not at all with the wonderful nos. 2, 4, 6, 8 and 9. Somewhat with nos. 3 and 5, but I think that those albums lacked some structure and substance, yet the main musical ideas sound great to me, really great - I don't find them disgustingly overrated. As for no. 7... well, I love Genesis' top albums (just a couple of many factors - Collins' excellent drumming and Hackett's exquisite guitar playing), so I must say that there lies my major disagreement. Interesting thread, really. Regards. |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 09:28
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Well... I knew I'd get a little bit of stick for some of my choices... so let's defend them shall we? First of all, a bit about my personal tastes: I love good symphonic music with a dash of complexity. Straight "lush"ness bores me a little. I simply adore the Canterbury movement, but that doesn't stop me spotting flaws once in a while... Logically, I also dabble in RIO, despite the fact that I find it's a devillishly tricky bugger to get right. I've recently begun exploring Italian prog in a big way. I'm loving every moment of it. Most importantly I love music that defies categorisation. I maintain that Prog isn't a genre, but an anti-genre where inventiveness is praised and encouraged. For this reason I tend to go for bands with a really different sound in a big way. Sound-a-likes tend to disappoint me. I've been collecting prog for about 4 and half years now, since the age of about 13.
ELP - I'm sorry but I find their music shallow, showy, dithering and ultimately unsatisfying. They destroyed my favourite suite of classical music ever (Pictures - how DARE Greg Lake put lyrics to The Great Gates of Kiev?! How DARE he?!), not that I don't mind different versions. I love Tomita's take on the suite.
Genesis - Something about their sound simply leaves me cold. I've tried and tried (God! How I've tried...) to like them, but it simply doesn't gel for me. It doesn't work at all. I understand why so many people love them (almost) but their music curdles in my head. I can't enjoy it.
Traffic - Many's the time they've been described as prog. Very mellow prog perhaps, but listen to that title track and tell me there aren't shades of earlier Yes/Canterbury there.
Pink Floyd/Dark Side of the Moon - They produced much better albums. Live with it.
And why didn't I mention Marillion? I just didn't want to revive horrible memories, I suppose...
Well... so there you are. Maybe you can understand my choices a little more now. Do remember though, I'm not making any personal attacks - I'm simply stating my opinion! Glad to see so many people willing to supply theirs too. Carry on. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:00
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Sorry Trousers... but I think your pants are droopy!! How dare he??? When you have the frigging voice of an angel.. you can damn well put lyrics to any piece of music you want! I loved the orchestral PAAE also, but I love ELP's version better... When Greg comes in with..."Theres no end to my life"... I'm usually on the floor by that time...thinking.."I'm not worthy"... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:19
Meant to ask what do you make of PAAE as Mussourski's originally wrote, ie.e as a piano piece - good old Ravel did the best known orchestral transcription I believe? |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:25
Hi Trouserpress you're not me are you and I've got a split personality, just realising it this moment?? I agree with your comments - being a major Soft Machine freak, I thinking some of the SM line-ups that never got recorded (except for the one track on the great BBC 1971 to 74 album) and Wyatts End Of An Ear point towards RIO. BTW Graham Bennett's forthcoming biog on Soft Machine will reinforce some of your opinions |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 11:08
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10 best Krautrock Jane- Fire Water Earth& Air Grobschnitt- Solar Music Live Klaus Schulze- Audentity Nue!- First album Hoelderlin-clouds & Clowns GuruGuru- Dance Of The Flames GuruGuru- UFO Octopus- Boat Of Thoughts Amon Duul II- Made In Germany Grobshnitt- Volle Molle Well that`s my list. The German stuff I listen to the most. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:43
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10 Best Notes 1. E 2. D 3. G 4. A 5. C 6. Eb/ D# 7. F 8. Bb/ A# 9. F# (but not Gb!) 10. H
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:57
Yes, I also prefer Ravel's version.. and I believe Keith used Ravel's version as his inspiration. I can still remember the first time I saw the shorter version performed as an encore on the BSS tour. It was like a preview of heaven for me.. and at the time Greg could still waiver up to that high note on the end. Truly amazing!! ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:57
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Trouser (sim. threefates and Dick Heath): My older brother (who turned me on to prog) is a classical violinist and composer with a B.S. in Music from Mannes. He would agree completely with your feelings re ELP: like you, he apparently can't get past the idea of "changing" anything re a classical piece; he considers it "heresy." Personally, I think this is an unnecessarily narrow view. I happen to think ELP's adaptation (a critical word here) of Pictures is brilliant. After all, what makes classical music so "sacred" that it is absolutely verboten to "play around" with it? My conception of "music" does not disallow for that possibility. Clearly, ELP is not playing Pictures the way Moussourgsky intended it, perhaps. But then, keep in mind that there wasn't "rock" music when Moussourgsky composed it, so how do we know he would not have been tickled to hear his work adapted (if somewhat freely) by a rock band? To presume otherwise is to place every piece of classical music behind a chain-link, barbed-wire fence with a sign saying "no trespassing." How utterly boring that would be! Music is about creativity - whether in writing original music, or interpreting someone else's music. (As an aside, at least ELP had the good taste to credit Moussourgky: they had to be sued to credit other classical composers from whom they "borrowed.") I also love the standard orchestral version - though, as Dick points out, the piece was originally written for solo piano. In this regard, the greatest recording ever made is by Sviatislov Richter, who played it live in what is unarguably one of the greatest, most brilliant live performances ever by anyone in any era. Although the recording is "denigrated" somewhat by someone in the audience who has a very bad coughing spell at one point, Richter puts in a tour-de-force effort. Anyway, ELP is one of those bands that one either loves or strongly dislikes. But one person's "bombast" is another person's "excitement" - and one person's "hopeless rip-off" is another person's interpretive tribute. Peace. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 13:40
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just to add a little bit of emphasis to maani's point (as always, well done!) if you enjoy the sound of the nylon-string classical guitar, keep in mind that any piece of classical music written before the 20th century had to be adapted to the instrument; many in the classical realm refused to even consider the guitar anything but an ethnic folk instrument before the efforts of Segovia (who, in turn, myopically considered the electric guitar an 'abomination'). It is through these variations of arrangement that the music retains its vitality- most classical music was never meant to be an affectation of the upper class and intellectuals and many of our most cherished works have enjoyed many popular interpretations. Emerson has definitely done his part to broaden both audiences. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: greenback
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 14:11
| Well, Pictures at an exhibition is technically excellent, but there are some dead fillers I think. It often happens that you hear only one instrument. ELP is at its best when everything is loaded! |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 15:01
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Ten bands who could have made a really good prog album if they'd tried.
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Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 16:54
Some good points - however, I did mention that I'm not against 'adaptation' of classical music. I pointed out the fact that I love Isao Tomita's take on Pictures at an Exhibition (which for those who are unfamilar was an extremely innovative early 70's recording solely using synthesisers). As for the Piano/Ravel Orchestration debate - the original piano suite is good, but lacks the oomph that an orchestra can undoubtedly bring to pieces like Hut of Baba Yaga and Great Gates of Kiev. I wouldn't call ELP's 'adaptation' a hopeless rip-off, merely a misguided attempt to rock up a classic in a wholly unnecessary fashion. Shall we all agree to differ? |
Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 18:43
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Most Overrated Prog Albums: 1.The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. (lyrical twaddle, not enough music, the Emperors New Clothes comes to mind.) 2.Pictures At An Exhibition. (puts the pompous in pomp.This album is 100% drivel although not as embarrassing as the track Pirates on Works.) 3.Misplaced Childhood (Side 2 is rubbish,no other way to describe it really,especially as side 1 is sublime) 4.Relayer (Patrick Moraz-bah!) 5. Larks Tongues In Aspic (makes Angelwitch sound musical) 6. Journey To The Centre Of The Earth (just as God was about to rest on the 7th day, he wrote this and blew it!) 7. Myths And legends Of King Arthur.. (and then only trundled on for an 8th day and came up with this garbage!) 8.And Then There Were Three (the poison dwarf on drums, vocals and my nerves) 9.Tubular Bells (about as cool as Oxford Bags) 10.2112 (sublime rock album, but about as prog as Iron Maiden... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 18:57
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ELP's - 'Pictures at an Exhibition' IS Overated actually but there are better versions by ELP of this peice - check out the bootleg box sets.There is one sensational performance on the 1973-1977 box at Richfield Colosseum I also agree about DSOTM ,always found it bland personally On the underated list I would put: Kayak - Royal Bed Bouncer Genesis - ATTWT IQ - The Seventh House Martin Orford - Classical Music And Popular Songs Magenta - Seven Pink Floyd - The Wall Yes - Tormato Rush - Counterparts Mike Oldfield - Crises Vangelis - Direct
Undisputed masterpeices: Yes - Close To The Edge Genesis - Foxtrot ELP - Brain Salad Surgery IQ - Ever King Crimson - In The Court Of The Crimson King Jethro Tull - Aqualung Rush - Moving Pictures Anglagard - Hybris Vangelis - Heaven and Hell Rick Wakeman - Six Wives Of Henry V111 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 18:59
Do you like prog rock??!
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 19:14
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Best Prog Albums: 1.Close To The Edge (Prog rock template, nuff said. God was having a good day, a very good day indeed) 2.Foxtrot ( a work of stunning beauty) 3.Script For A Jester's Tear (loved it then hated it but 20 years on it still grabs you, a remarkable debut) 4.Moving Pictures (The greatest album of all time but only very loosely prog. So good it has to be up there just for the proggy Red Barchetta and The Camera Eye) 5.The Wall (Given that the "agenda" of punk was to bury all the dinosaurs, how come this spawned the last No1 single of the 70's? According to history as written by the NME this album didnt happen. Probably the most important Prog album of all time given the historical context. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 21:57
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All quoted sections from Reed Lover post:
(puts the pompous in pomp.This album is 100% drivel although not as embarrassing as the track Pirates on Works.)
So, What do you expected?
(Patrick Moraz-bah!) Patrick Moraz Bah????? I believe he's in the same level of the best keyboardist, some time try to watch the Yes at QPR DVD, the guy is spectacular and has a perfect style.
(makes Angelwitch sound musical) King Crimson is not my cup of tea, but LTIA is a classic album, probably the best KC released after ITCOCK.
(just as God was about to rest on the 7th day, he wrote this and blew it!) I'm starting to believe you have something against keyboardists, if you don't like pompous music, then Prog' is not the genre for you.
(and then only trundled on for an 8th day and came up with this garbage!) You can say you don't like this album, it's your opinion, but calling it garbage is way too much.
(the poison dwarf on drums, vocals and my nerves) I don't like Collins as vocalist (He also breaks my nerves), but to deny he's one of the best drummers is against reason. Anyway, I hate this album too.
(about as cool as Oxford Bags) Taken from Merrian-Webster Online
Fashionable: conforming to the custom, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fashion - fashion , or established mode Prog' is, was and will never be cool, prog' is intelligent, elaborated and complex, just the opposite of cool. Rap, Pop, Hip Hop and Dance can be considered cool music (By those who like this genres) because it's fashion. Prog was never a fashion and in no way it's a genre conforming to the custom, in other ways Prog Rock is the opposite of cool, proggers usually are unpopular, the genre is too hard to understand to be considered cool. Agree 100% with Threefates question DO YOU LIKE PROG ROCK???! Iván |
Posted By: Cesar Inca
Date Posted: August 24 2004 at 22:45
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My fave top 10 Krautrock: GURU GURU - UFO ; COSMIC JOKERS - Galactic Supermarket ; AGITATION FREE - Second ; AGITATION FREE - Last ; TANGERINE DREAM - Ricochet ; AMON DUUL II - Phallus Dei ; AMON DUUL II - Yeti ; ASH RA TEMPEL - Ash Ra Tempel ; CAN - Future Days ; KRAFTWERK - Autobahn
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 00:42
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What I feel are prog masterpieces... and I'm sure you won't be surprised... thats why I haven't done this yet... but
Underrated:
------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Marcelo
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 12:06
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I can agree or disagree in several points, but ---about the wonderful-almost unknown-masterpiece Io Sono Murple, perhaps the most underrated album ever--- Trouser is my new idol
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 17:54
It seems to me that some of you play right into the hands of those that would sneer at prog rock. This po-faced attitude just makes you sound like nerds. I have been listening to prog develop since 1971, some of the albums I have derided used to be big favourites but sound almost ridiculous now. Rick Wakeman is my hero, his Yes stuff still exhilerates me now, but the King Arthur, Journey To The Centre Of The Earth stuff is almost cringe-inducing to listen to.I have seen ELP live umpteen times in the 70's and they were awesome. That nonesense about Mussorgsky is just patronising, and makes you sound like a character in "Spinal Tap"! No doubt if ELP released a skiffle version of Beethoven's 5th you'd blame that on Beethoven> |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 18:32
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Every type of music has an element of the ridiculous- human nature almost requires it. Whatever music you like can be attacked (pointlessly) on those grounds. Prog's particular silliness just happens to be out of style (hence the 'cool' definition). If you don't care for pompous music, that's a matter of taste; if you imply that pomposity (or any other element of human expression) has no place in music, you're unlikely to have your opinions taken seriously. Simply making music at all- the hubris to get up and say "listen to me, I have something worth hearing"- requires an act of pomposity on the part of the artist. I don't think a factual and accurate reference to Mussorgsky can be termed "nonesense", no matter how you spell it; in addition, the Russian composer dedicated himself to bringing art to "the masses" and would have likely appreciated the concept (if not the form) of bringing "Pictures" to a rock audience. I've done my share of criticizing the pretentious leanings of prog acts; it's a useless point to make. 'Ideal' music will never happen or has yet to be created, so in the meantime, ask yourself: Would you prefer great music with a few obvious shortcomings or mediocre music with no faults? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 18:42
I am just saying that you could see the point of the argument about the over-blown nature of some of this work and the fact that tastes move on. and yes clever clogs we all know Mussorgsky was an inveterate drunk |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 18:51
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Generally,I look at it this way: ELP= 'sex' Pink Floyd = 'brain' With everything else somewhere in the middle. ELP could never make an intellectual album like Floyd's 'Dark Side Of The Moon' but then IMO Floyd could never bring an audience to a pinnacle of excitement like ELP could do at their best.Floyd and ELP were as different as Apples and Oranges.I'm willing to bet there are those here that identify strongly with one approach or the other.The 'intellectuals' who like Floyd may sneer at the pomposity of ELP while those who want to hear Carl Palmer and Keith Emerson playing at the speed of sound may well get bored with Pink Floyd's musings on life.Prog offers quite widely differing attitudes and approachs to making music.The thing is it's all fine and many of us like a bit of variety! |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 18:53
I can think of at least one person who will second that ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 25 2004 at 18:55
A dear friend and great fan of serious music was shocked when I played him jazzer Herbert Laws Going Home (ex. The Chicago Theme - CTI Records), because the tune is this classicially trained flautist's rather nicely jazzed up, shortened treatment of Dvorak's 9th Symphony - The New World.
A similar response as your brother - 'mustn't do that to a piece
of classical music!' I felt forced to remind my friend that Dvorak
working in the USA at the end of the 19th century, had heard "negro
spirituals" and incorporated them into the 9th. Hence Law's
title was apt and my response was: 'should a serious music composer be
doing that to black music?' But of course composers have always been
lifting folk music themes and tunes - quite a number to be found in
Beethoven's symphonies, and Mussorgski as one of the group
of 19th century Russian semi-pro composers, the Mighty Handful,
would have no doubt raided tradiation Russian folk tunes for his
compositions. So personally I don't care what type of musician borrows from the
repertoise of another group's, it is what he /she/they do with it. Did
I mention that I preferred Mekon Delta's two takes on PAAE |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 03:15
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The Large Bowl wrote: It seems to me that some of you play right into the hands of those that would sneer at prog rock. Simply, I can't care less of what SOME people thinks about my tastes and opinions, even if they believe it's just "nonsense". I am sure enough of what I like, so I don't care if people laugh at my taste.
Why do you react like this when you don't agree with someone? Again I don't take offense because I have the greatest of respect for so called nerds, I used to bother them at school, but most nerds are people who know what they are talking about.
What, have King Arthur or Journey to the Centre of the Earth changed through the years? I believe the notes of Journey to the Centre of the Earth are exactly the same today than in the 70's, quality remains, perspective of the listener and fashion is what changes. To be honest I haven't changed my perspective and never cared for musical fashion.
I only saw ELP once in 1999 and still they were awesome. 15,000 souls who were at the same show (record for a small city as Lima) thought like me, maybe the nerds bought all the tickets.
Won't answer your "nonesesnce" quote, it's not worth If you take your time and read a bit of history you'll notice that Pictures at an Exhibition was considered pompous in all Europe when released and it's still pompous. Please read my whole quote about Pictures:
Numbers 2 and 3 clearly express that I accept ELP and in general Prog' Rock are pompous. I'm not afraid of the word pompous, at least for some of us pompous music is much better than plain and simple commercial music, that's a matter of personal taste. The funny thing is that you are criticizing prog' music with exactly the same arguments magazines as Rolling Stones use, they call pompous and self indulgent to describe everything that's not mainstream.
What's your point? Iván
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 07:24
Strange I always thought of the best period Floyd as being brains heavily under the influence of LSD* , and the latter period as musicians filling bank accounts with LSD+.
BTW here, LSD* doesn't = LSD+ |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 09:42
I SECOND THAT !!!!! ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 10:53
Any psychologists out there - with these admissions, I'm sure somebody could have a field day with you folks' sex lives Mind you if such confessions are to be made, the first woman to break my heart played the Moody Blues during our more intimate moments those first times, but she soon moved to Meatloaf's Bat Out Of Hell (with enforced temporary interruption to the passions as she leaped out of bed to flip the album). I must admit Moore and Derek at it to Ravel's (back to PAAE again!!) Bolero in Ten, seemed far fetched..................... Anybody else care to confess what music they bonk to.............................(but please no photographs)? |
?Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 14:45
But Waters is on record as saying that the band were aware of this - they'd struggled many a (Dark Sided) Moon to make the latter LSD, and suddenly they hit the jackpot - ironically breaking through in the US thanks to a single which was lyrically against the very stuff!. Did they keep it and be everything they were against, or enjoy the riches they'd worked so hard to achieve? The follow-up album was so obviously a message to their former colleage who did have too much of the former LSD. The answer was (as far as my research has shown, but someone else probably knows better!) that Floyd threw the majority of their LSD into the amazing shows they put on - I understand that "The Wall" nearly wiped them out (although it probably reaped a huge Harvest, so we needn't feel too sorry!). Anyway, by the time Dark Side of the Moon was released, Britain had gone decimal |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 20:04
Now that's a fine idea for a thread! I'll start the ball rolling (er...we can expect many more of these double entendres if the topic takes off...) with the 2nd side of King Crimson's "Starless and Bible Black"; I'll always remember an extremely sweaty, nasty, and almost transcendental experience that accompanied "Fracture". Just don't mention it to my wife- it was slightly before her time ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 26 2004 at 20:30
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I had some surreal moments with Pink Floyd on the stereo.. whether DSOTM minus Money... or The Division Bell... ELP's Trilogy is another favorite.. except sometimes it makes me cry.. and that can be a mood stopper.. There is also a few non-prog albums I like for this purpose... Sting's Brand New Day with "A Thousand Years" and "Desert Rose"... great! Loreena McKennitt's Book of Secrets.. thats very nice also as well as Hooverphonic's Blue Wonder Power Milk... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 02:31
I never wrote that!
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 03:10
Whoops, that was Dick Heath and the moral is: never edit your quotes wait, how do we know that "richardh" and "Dick Heath" aren't the same person- Dick being a nickname for richard, and H could stand for Heath...I'm on to you!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: dude
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 07:53
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ELP=SEX?? CANT SEE IT MYSELF BUT AS I THINK I MENTIONED SOME MONTHS AGO IN ANOTHER THRAED I HAD AN EXGIRLFREIND WHO THOUGHT "TARKUS" WAS A SEXY ALBUM GO FIGURE |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 20:21
Tarkus is a sexy album !!!... OMG...by the time Greg comes in with "Clear the battlefield..and let me see" ... I'm generally wishing I was on my knees.... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 20:29
Oh no you're not |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 20:32
That thought had me thinking - but I assume you are not talking the bonking thread  here.......................... |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 20:39
Oh Dick.. you know me better than that.... of course I was... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 20:47
I was getting the wrong end of the stick then............... [BTW you did once say you were a Heath, didn't you????////////////] |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 21:00
Yes, that is my last name...and my fathers... my 2 brothers....and now my son... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 21:02
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Play Tarkus a little more, and you will start to get the better end of the stick... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 21:19
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my only objection to "Tarkus" is that robot armadillo tanks rarely help arouse me...but that's just me. Now, fem-bots, that's another story Whatever you do, don't put Zappa on. For a man whose discography is chock full of sex, he makes an uncomfortable environment in which to actually have it. I'm gonna have to try it with Anglagard's "Epilog"- instrumental albums seem to work best. I heartily recommend anything by Segovia...you have no idea what flamenco can do to a woman (or do you?). If you really want the full duende, go to an actual flamenco performance (not the stuffy recitals, but the dances for which the music was intended). I can almost guarantee anyone you take to a flamenco party will get in the mood. Conversely, Mezquita doesn't seem to work as well- the vocals are a little distracting.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 21:40
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ah but you know that crazy armadillo tank doesn't get even a mention in the song lyrics of that entire album... so you don't even remember he's around.. ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: dude
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 22:54
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will you two stop with the innuendo stuff!!!
good greif, i feel like im intruding where are my binoculars? |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 23:13
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Well Dude, if you've got something to offer... by all means.. intrude...
------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 23:28
Naughty, naughty, naughty...
------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 27 2004 at 23:29
I'm so glad you can read between my lines, Land... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 09:36
Shall we dance? |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 09:43
Zappa for killing passion on many a night if you are not careful!!!!!!!!!!!! "Sex = explicitness" here, i.e. deliberate rudeness and the music is sometimes the better for it (some times not) - especially to shock the mothers of the revolution. My favourite Zappa is Broken Hearts Is For A******es (ex. Shiek Yerbouti) because it was the catalyst that got me out the doldrums of a major broken heart - that specific line was smack on in my circumstances. |
Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:30
The line from from that song I most often remember is that wonderful refrain: "Ram it, ram it, ram it, ram it up the poop chute" but that album also has the winsome love sonnet: "And while I have been in you, baby Just perfect for occasions of tender intimacy! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 10:43
corn hole.....................( but I'll avoid the next two words) but ( with the faux Bob Dylan singing) lines like: ' When we tried to flush a tampooooooooooooon' or 'The toilet blow up the very next day' - just don't write them like that anymore.... |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 12:02
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Well I prefer Trent Reznor's "Closer" in intimate moments that will take you from boring to exciting in less than 60 seconds...... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 18:34
A bit late getting back to this... here goes. Have you ever watched the auditions for Pop Idol? All those kids who think they can sing because their friends and family tell them they can instead of being kind and telling them the truth. Someone should do you a favour and tell you what a pretentious sounding nerd you are. Banging on about Mussorgsky as if you're an authority( I bet you keep Encarta minimised on your screen ready for intellectual emergencies) . Maybe as a Rush fan I should look up everything I can about ST Coleridge, Ayn Rand or John Dos Passos. You are the second (?) to mention my typo "nonesence". QED
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Posted By: Reed Lover
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:07
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Bowl thing You can make a valid point without resorting to personal remarks, you know. Gotta agree about the spelling issue though.Given the international nature of this forum all kind of syntax, grammar and spelling errors creep in-so what? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:38
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Funny answer Large Bowl, you don't give a single valid answer or argument and you dare to catalogue me when you don't even know me. We all know what you mean with your "typo" nonesence, but Who cares? If it makes you happy, I'm a nerd and you're the owner of the universal truth, I don't care what you think or believe. But, this is the last time I waste my time and the forum members patience answering you. To the rest of the forum members, please excuse me for this post,next time I will try to ignore some personal attacks. Iván Just for the record, I was never banging Mussorgsky, as a fact he is one of my favorite musicians, what you can find reading carefully my first post. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:44
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I just love this forum!!! I mean where else can I find people who can insult and compliment ELP all in the same sentence. And you know I don't really care as long as we can continue to discuss them. Am I addicted to them... you bet your bippy I am!! Anyway, I can agree on pompous. They were pompous.. and thats probably what made them so very special. However, I hate and abhor the word pretentious used in reference to ELP... because they were never pretentious.. they were everything they thought they were...and more! You can go back to insulting each other now... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 04:04
I know, I'm not even an ELP fan and I've been defending them pretty steadfastly I used to care more about pretentiousness before I realized that we're all pretentious to some degree, just as we're all predjudiced in some ways. Sure, we all know the ultra-hip or avant-artsy characters, but it also applies to the kid pretending he's tough to his friends, the middle-aged woman who says she's 3-10 years younger, the old man whose fish gets bigger every time he tells the story...pretentiousness is just another facet to personality. When your source material includes the arts and literature, and your performing style is more theatrical than simply standing and playing, you're apt to be termed pretentious- as if it's an artistic failing to bring attention to classic works or put on an interesting show! To be honest, I don't think ELP is any more (or less) pretentious than any of the explicitly referential hip-hop or alternative artists out there; it's just that prog draws from a slightly different artistic pool, less Pop Culture and more Western Civ...check out the evolution of art, architecture, clothing, even religion and you'll find period where certain values are replaced by others, only to be themselves replaced by revivals (progressive rock as Romanesque or Gothic...there's a thesis paper for you!). The prog values were overturned for punk values, but that could all change at any time. Soon we may even criticize bands for not being pompous enough! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: zappa123
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 05:41
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[QUOTE=Trouserpress]
Here's a few album lists - some obvious, some less so. Feel free to pick apart my choices and tell me I'm a fool.
1. Yes - Close to the Edge
10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Kevin Ayers - Whatevershebringswesing
10 Disgustingly Overrated Prog Albums: 1. Spock's Beard - Snow
10 Progressive Near Misses: 1. Frank Zappa - Hot Rats So... there we are! Your turn! Well I'm not sure that you know what are you talking about.My comment on your list is "that is not really a list,that's just your opinion what you like and what you don't like.I can respect that but man-be serious.Your few misses:Anglagard,Hatfield&the north,Relayer-I don't know but the masterpieces are not.Then overrated albums:Tubular bells-I think that is a masterpiece and I belive that most of the guys stick with me here.And then about Genesis-if you don't like them that is your problem,the truth is -they are one of the greatest prog bands ever.I think the guys stick with me here too.Atom heart mother was good album. Your 10 near misses:Atom heart mother was good album....and finaly FRANK ZAPPA-HOT RATS?----You have to be joking? I know.It's hard to understand ZAPPA.Maybe in the future years you'll understand him-who knows. Man,I'm almost mad at you.
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Posted By: zappa123
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 06:03
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Trouserpress wrote: Genesis - Something about their sound simply leaves me cold. I've tried and tried (God! How I've tried...) to like them, but it simply doesn't gel for me. It doesn't work at all. I understand why so many people love them (almost) but their music curdles in my head. I can't enjoy it.
Sorry for you.I heard in a film phrase "you're listening but you're not hearing them. I love this topic.Here is a battle going on. |
Posted By: zappa123
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 06:43
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[QUOTE=ivan_2068]
My personal list: True Masterpieces 1. Genesis – The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway 10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics: 1. Genesis – Nursery Cryme 10 Overrated albums: 1. Anything by The Beatles except Abbey Road Don't believe in nearly misses, or you get it or not, as simple as that. Iván I agree with you most of the times but leave The beatles alone.They are the legends.I don't know they really belong on our prog pages but I think they were progressive a lot of times.And I dont think in a way like yes,KC,ELP etc but the thruth is that they invented (or better begin) a lot of music styles--and when the rest of the world begin to play this kind of music they went ahead.They made a huge ipression on almost all the bends after(even yes--the first albums --there is a lot of beatles sound there don't you think? The beatles are not only love me do,hard day's night etc.There is Rubber soul,Sgt.Pepper,White album etc. and for that times I think they were progressive and ahead of the music playing at that times.It's hard to imagine some prog creations without Sgt.pepper I think.And even some psychedelic streams without Rubber soul.The last two or three songs on the album Rubber Soul from 1966 announced a psychedelic era when in 1967 the stream exploded.You take the record and you'll see what I'm talking about. So the music without The beatles wouldn't be the same then and now and that is a fact.The songs like Strawberry fields forever,A day in the life,Eleanor Rigby....This are the pearls. And one small miss---King Crimson's Red is a heavy conceptual album and I think is a masterpiece. No hard feelings,hang on. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 12:32
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Zappa123 wrote:
Agree with you Zappa, they were progressive a lot of times. IMHO Abbey Road is a masterpiece but releases as Sgt Peppers and White album are overratedwqhen considered quintuaessential. Both are good, I don't deny it, but not the masteríeces people always insist. Overrated is not an insult to the band, simply is my personal view about some of their releases, which are good but not in the proportion some people affirm.
Of course there are no hard feelings, we are here to discuss, not to agree always, everybody has their own taste and diversity of opinions is what feeds this and every respectable forum. Polite discussion and civilized disagreements are part of the fun in a forum, if every member had the same taste this would be boring, imagine the situation if one member sayd I love Genesis and after that 45 answers saying I love them too. Iván
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 13:43
I love them too! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 14:21
If "you all know what you mean with your "typo" nonesence, but Who cares?" why make the reference to it in the first place-dont you see that the reference to it completely invalidates your plea "To the rest of the forum members, please excuse me for this post,next time I will try to ignore some personal attacks." Making a reference to my typo is a personal attack, you jackass!! It suggests that you think that not only is my argument invalid, I am a brainless oaf who cant spell. Reading your posts, you seem to think that you are this great guy (probably 16 or 17 years old) and nobody should challenge your position as a valued contributer. What kind of brain-dead moron thinks he needs to write "in my opinion" every time he offers an opinion-who elses opinion are you going to offer-mine?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 15:28
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IMHO is a respect formula for the rest of the members from a person who knows his opinion is not the only truth. Respect, a word that is not part of your dictionary. Iván |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 18:50
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Larger Bowl: Greetings. I have been following your "dialogue" (a nice word...) with Ivan. and although Ivan has a tendency to be literal, direct and "serious" in his debates, in the months that I have "known" him, he has never once "meanly" denigrated any other members' tastes or opinions, much less insulted anyone or called them names. Even his reference to your typo, while perhaps unnecessary, hardly rises to the level of "personal attack." On the other hand, you have resorted to insults to a degree that simply will not be tolerated on Progarchives. Therefore, if you can't "play nice," you will be ejected from the sandbox... And at the risk of sounding "imperious," this will be your only warning... Peace. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:03
i dont understand what my crime is. I gave my opinion about certain albums and got a very patronising lecture and a spurious reference to a mis-spelling and I became the bad guy. I have been given no respect for my views, however contentious, from this person. At the risk of sounding "imperious" |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:10
Dude, he was just attempting to discuss your view on the album, and you exploded and started insulting him. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:23
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[/QUOTE] Dude, he was just attempting to discuss your view on the album, and you exploded and started insulting him. [/QUOTE] I'll get me coat....................... |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:39
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Don't leave, Bowl... just develop a thicker skin... ------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:41
Rhino what you're talking about. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:55
on a list that mostly consists of opinionated men (and a couple of opinionated females) Yes, thats about it...
------------- THIS IS ELP
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: August 29 2004 at 23:42
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Larger Bowl: Actually, your "history" is incorrect. I went over the entire thread and found the following with respect to posts relevant to this issue: Ivan offered three posts on 8/23; you had not posted yet. Reed Lover posted twice on 8/24. Ivan posted on 8/24 in response to Reed Lover's post. You posted for the first time on 8/25, and immediately accused Ivan of a "po-faced attitude" and he and other members of being "nerds." Not exactly "fighting words" perhaps, but unnecessary insults nonetheless. Thus, from your very first post, you were inappropriately rude and inconsiderate. James Lee posted on 8/25, making the first reference to your typo. His exact words were, "nonesense - no matter how you spell it." This hardly rises to the level of a "personal attack." On 8/26, Ivan posted in response to your first post. His post was a "proper" - if serious direct and debative - response to your comments; i.e., it contained no "ill will," insults or invective. He did make the second reference to your typo - a reference which actually casts it aside as irrelevant. Thus, not only did he not "attack" you for it, he was specifically setting it aside from all the comments that the two of you had made back and forth up to that point. On 8/28, you posted your second post, in response to Ivan. You state, "You are the second to mention my typo." Your use of the word "mention" belies your post facto "indignation" at it, and your accusations of "personal attack." In that post, you also resort to yet more name-calling: "pretentious-sounding nerd." Again, perhaps not "fighting words," but completely inappropriate nonetheless. On 8/28, Ivan responded to you. Here, for the the first time - and not unjustifiably, given your prior posts - he responded with impatience and annoyance. On 8/29, Ivan responded to a post by Zappa 123. On 8/29, you posted, claiming "personal attack," and calling Ivan a "brain-dead moron." Yet, as noted above, you had never been "personally attacked." Still you resorted to unnecessary and inappropriate insults. On 8/29, Ivan responded to you regarding his use of the phrase (or acronym) "in my humble opinion," and your mean-spirited comment in that regard in your 8/29 post. Note that many people use that phrase or its acronym. Yet no one has ever "taken issue" with it before. He also made an appropriate comment re "respect." On 8/29, I posted my warning to you. On 8/29, you posted a response, claiming that you had "given my opinion about certain albums and got a very patronizing lecture." Yet your very first post contained a personal insult to Ivan, and a generalized insult to the members. Nor was Ivan's post a "lecture," nor was his post "patronizing"; having read it three times now, I repeat that it is direct and "debative," if admittedly somewhat humorless. But lack of humor does not equal "patronizing." You also claim that you have been given "no respect for my views." Based on my reading of the entire thread, I must disagree. And yet, even were you correct, what do you expect, when your very first post contains both individual and personal insults? You came into this thread like a bull in a china shop, with a bad attitude, hurling insults and mean-spiritedness. The written word does not lie: indeed, I invite everyone to re-read the thread and see whether my interpretation is correct. You are more than welcome to stay. Heck, we hate to lose members - much less eject them - even when they are "borderline cases" (right, velvetclown? Give it some thought. Peace. |