I am a bit of a Stranglers fan (along side prog rock bands) and have always found albums like 'Black and White, 'The Raven' and 'The Men in Black' to be very experimental, even progressive.  Definately not punk!

Just wondered what others think?

Certainly prog inspired..

Good musicians who wrote very original sounding music. I've seen them live (with Hugh Cornwell) but I only have a few of their albums. I have 'No More Heroes' 'Aural Sculpture' and 'All Live & all of the Night' (I was at that gig! ) I want to get some more Stranglers..

Reccomendations please 

Get the cd's I mentioned in my post above - you won't be sorry!

Although fully punk by their attitude, the stranglers were a bit rejected by other punk group by being suspect because they had a KB player (noticably older too) , sporting mustaches, and slightly more complex tunes. But to call them prog is taking things a bit too far, IMHO!!

I'd say they were more of a pub rock band a bit like Dr Feelgood

Their french bassist JJ Burnell was always picking fights, too!

Among the other suspect groups were The Police with a jazz bassist, a prog drummer ans an ex-hippie guitarist, Outlandos D'Amour was an outstanding album. The Jam were sometimes complex , but in their later days - The Gift

^ Can you define polyphony?

Blacksword wrote: ^ Can you define polyphony?

I'll give it a go at this but I am not sure I got it right.

from what I gather from Bulgarian and Corsican chants is that there are singers singing in time but on different scales (not octaves) .

No.

Great band, but not a prog band. If the Stranglers were to be included, there would be little justification for the exclusion of 50-100 other late 70s-early 80 acts.

Sean Trane wrote: Blacksword wrote: ^ Can you define polyphony? I'll give it a go at this but I am not sure I got it right. from what I gather from Bulgarian and Corsican chants is that there are singers singing in time but on different scales (not octaves) .

Just looked it up. It basically means the use of independant melody lines - played together- in a piece of music, so I guess thats fits your description. I think in literal terms it just means multi voice.

If it's the musical approach that I think it is then I'm sure I've heard Yes, VDGG and numerous other bands using it. I dont think it's unusual in prog.

From the entry on polyphony in Wikipedia:

Polyphony is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_texture" title="Musical texture - musical texture consisting of two or more independent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodic" title="Melodic - melodic voices, as opposed to music with just one voice ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/monophony" title="monophony - monophony ) or music with one dominant melodic voice accompanied by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_%28music%29" title="Chord music - chords ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophony" title="Homophony - homophony ).

The term is usually used in reference to music of the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_music" title="Medieval music - Middle Ages and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_music" title="Renaissance music - Renaissance : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music" title="Baroque music - Baroque forms such as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue" title="Fugue - fugue which might be called polyphonic are usually described instead as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint" title="Counterpoint - contrapuntal . Also, as opposed to the species terminology of counterpoint, polyphony was generally either "pitch-against-pitch"/"point-against-point" or "sustained-pitch" in one part with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma" title="Melisma - melismas of varying lengths in another (van der Werf, 1997). In all cases the conception was likely what Margaret Bent (1999) calls "dyadic counterpoint", with each part being written generally against one other part, with all parts modified if needed in the end. This point-against-point conception is opposed to "successive composition", where voices were written in an order with each new voice fitting into the whole so far constructed, which was previously assumed.

Two treatises, both dating from c. 900, are usually considered the oldest surviving part-music though they are note-against-note, voices move mostly in parallel octaves, fifths, and fourths, and they were not intended to be performed. The ' http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Winchester_Troper&action=edit" class="new" title="Winchester Troper - Winchester Tropers ', from c. 1000, are the oldest surviving example of practical rather than pedagogical polyphony, though intervals, pitch levels, and durations are often not indicated. (van der Werf, 1997)

The oldest surviving piece of six-part music is the English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_%28music%29" title="Rota music - rota http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer_is_icumen_in" title="Sumer is icumen in - Sumer is icumen in (ca. 1240). (Albright, 2004)

Incipient polyphony (previously primitive polyphony) includes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiphony" title="Antiphony - antiphony and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_and_response_%28music%29" title="Call and response music - Call and response (music) , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_%28music%29" title="Drone music - drones , and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Parallel_interval&action=edit" class="new" title="Parallel interval - parallel intervals .

I only partially concur with this definition though; seperating fugues and the usage of counterpoint from polyphony is splitting hairs; the usage of counterpoints is only a more refined technique of polyphony. Johann Sebastian Bach undoubtedly was the grandmaster of counterpoint (and hence of polyphony too).

^ Thanks for posting that.

I was thinking of Homophony!  

It doesn't sound like such an usual approach to writing music. Are you sure this is uncommon in prog rock? I'm sure it's not beyond the musicians, maybe it just doesn't occur to them to use it.

BaldFriede wrote: You must not confuse "polyphony" with "pseudo-polyphony". The latter uses two or more different voices too; the difference, however, is that in the latter these voices are NOT independent of each other and essentially rely on mere chord progression. Pseudo-polyphony indeed often occurs in prog-rock; real polyphony is very rare. Gentle Giant and High Tide are examples for bands who use real polyphony, also Frank Zappa occasionally. Zappa is sometimes very complex and even occasionally uses polytonality (2 or more different scales at the same time).

Why do you have only four stars (collaborator), when i'ts obvious that you know prog music better than everyone on progarchives?

bobo wrote: to blacksword - try their first two - Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, and also the live "Stranglers and Friends live at concert". especially listen to "Down in the Sewer" from their first album. if the Stranglers were ever prog for a few minutes, it's in this song.

Thanks!

I have No More Heroes. Great album  Down in the Sewer does have a proggy feel and structure, I agree. It's split into three (?) parts. I remember seeing them play that song live and thinking 'This isn't punk, it's almost like prog rock!'  I was young..They also played 'North Winds' from 'Aural Sculpture' which I love, but that doesn't seem to be a very popular album.

BaldFriede wrote: From the entry on polyphony in Wikipedia: ... The oldest surviving piece of six-part music is the English rota Sumer is icumen in (ca. 1240). (Albright, 2004)

Wikipedia really annoys me sometimes - the Reading Rota, "Sumer is Icumen In" is the very first written example of a Round (like the tunes "London's Burning" or "Frere Jaques"). It is NOT specifically an early example of polyphony - a better example would have been Byrd's 40-part motet "Spem in Alium".

The Reading Rota is not written in 6-parts at all, but was conceptualised contrapuntally so that 6 could sing it and join in at regular intervals, building up the round.

Wikipedia makes the distinction between Fugue (counterpoint) and polyphony, yet the Round is a primitive and simplified version of the fugue.

Marillion's music on "Script..." is an excellent example of both polyphonic and contrapuntal music writing, albeit at a different level to Gentle Giant.

krusty wrote: I wouldn't call them prog, I hear a fair amount of influence from the Doors in there music and I don't think the Doors are on here either??

Agree with you with Doors influences.

Another exciting group in that realm was Television.

Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too...

Yep!

Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too...

I'll put a mention in for Siouxsie And The Banshees as well.There were some decent punk bands ..pity they had such a crappy attitude

erik neuteboom wrote: I own a live album featuring Robert Fripp on guitar, using that typical chainsaw sound! That night many guest musicians replaced one of the band members who had to stay in prison! It's an interesting live CD, at this moment I am at my work so I cannot give more details  ..!

yep, that's the one I was talking about earlier. it has a lot of prog guys playing on it - Nik Turner from Hawkwind, Robert Fripp as you mentioned, Peter Hammill from VdGG, Steve Hillage from Gong. actually, it's one of the reasons I got into prog for the first place!

Blacksword wrote: bobo wrote: to blacksword - try their first two - Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, and also the live "Stranglers and Friends live at concert". especially listen to "Down in the Sewer" from their first album. if the Stranglers were ever prog for a few minutes, it's in this song. Thanks! I have No More Heroes. Great album  Down in the Sewer does have a proggy feel and structure, I agree. It's split into three (?) parts. I remember seeing them play that song live and thinking 'This isn't punk, it's almost like prog rock!'  I was young..They also played 'North Winds' from 'Aural Sculpture' which I love, but that doesn't seem to be a very popular album.

Down in the Sewer has 4 Parts to it: a. Falling. b. Down In the Sewer. c. Trying to Get Out Again. d. Rats Rally.

krusty wrote: bobo wrote: to blacksword - try their first two - Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, and also the live "Stranglers and Friends live at concert". especially listen to "Down in the Sewer" from their first album. if the Stranglers were ever prog for a few minutes, it's in this song. I was going to mention "Down in the Sewer" as well, what an excelent track. I also second the albums mentioned above. I was a fully paid up member of their fan club, I have all the early stuff prior to to Aural Sculpture Picture disc singles, fan club only stuff, saw them dozens of times, etc, etc... but I wouldn't call them prog, I hear a fair amount of influence from the Doors in there music and I don't think the Doors are on here either?? Now might be a bit harder if we were talking about Magazine

I think they sound like the Doors mainly because of Dave Greenfield's style of playing the keyboards. anyway, the Doors had very long tracks on their repetoire as well (the End, When the Music's over, Light My Fire, L.A. Woman etc.), but they were more like jams and solos than a prog-structure.

BaldFriede wrote: You must not confuse "polyphony" with "pseudo-polyphony". The latter uses two or more different voices too; the difference, however, is that in the latter these voices are NOT independent of each other and essentially rely on mere chord progression. Pseudo-polyphony indeed often occurs in prog-rock; real polyphony is very rare. Gentle Giant and High Tide are examples for bands who use real polyphony, also Frank Zappa occasionally. Zappa is sometimes very complex and even occasionally uses polytonality (2 or more different scales at the same time).

I think you're wrong in your assumption that only a handful of bands use "real" polyphony. Of course doubling a single melody line with diatonically correct notes essentially forms a chord progression. But be honest: Most prog bands of the 70s did much more than that. Consider how melody lines often are contrapuntal to the bass lines for example. And even when you say "the bass doesn't count as a valid example here", Even "standard" prog bands like Camel or borderline prog bands like Kansas use polyphony quite often.

Or do you mean that Gentle Giant are simply much better than the other bands - their polyphony is more cunning and sophisticated? 

MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldFriede wrote: You must not confuse "polyphony" with "pseudo-polyphony". The latter uses two or more different voices too; the difference, however, is that in the latter these voices are NOT independent of each other and essentially rely on mere chord progression. Pseudo-polyphony indeed often occurs in prog-rock; real polyphony is very rare. Gentle Giant and High Tide are examples for bands who use real polyphony, also Frank Zappa occasionally. Zappa is sometimes very complex and even occasionally uses polytonality (2 or more different scales at the same time). I think you're wrong in your assumption that only a handful of bands use "real" polyphony. Of course doubling a single melody line with diatonically correct notes essentially forms a chord progression. But be honest: Most prog bands of the 70s did much more than that. Consider how melody lines often are contrapuntal to the bass lines for example. And even when you say "the bass doesn't count as a valid example here", Even "standard" prog bands like Camel or borderline prog bands like Kansas use polyphony quite often. Or do you mean that Gentle Giant are simply much better than the other bands - their polyphony is more cunning and sophisticated?

I think BF is simply making the distinction between the pseudo-polyphony of using contrapuntal voice/bass lines with keyboards and guitars simply filling in the harmony, and the more accurate definition of polyphony, where all parts do something very different - something Gentle Giant were exceptional at, and something you can hear fairly frequently in good fusion.

My own definition of Polyphony is along the lines of advanced counterpoint: While it's obvious that "poly" means "many", and "phony" indicates musical "voices", two lines of melody is not enough to qualify - especially when "padded out" with, say, rhythm guitar. Hence my example of the Byrd piece, which is in 40 individual parts (8 choirs of 5 voices each).

In short, there must be more than 2 voices (or instruments), and each voice must have an independent melody line to qualify a piece as truly polyphonic. As I said, a Round does not truly qualify, as there is only one melody line.

Much as I love Camel, the examples of polyphony in their work are pretty much restricted to "The Snow Goose", and even there, it's limited.

I don't know Kansas' back catalogue well enough, but again, there's not a huge amount on "Leftoverture", when you compare them to Gentle Giant.

Gentle Giant wrote many such pieces - my favourite is "On Reflection" which drops into and out of polyphony in a quite incredible way, and uses other contrapuntal techniques, such as canon and fugal writing to great effect. It's not completely polyphonic, but it's a miracle of songwriting!

The title track of "Script..." contains some incredible polyphony which feels so natural that many people dismiss it as somehow simple.

Certif1ed wrote: BaldFriede wrote: From the entry on polyphony in Wikipedia: ... The oldest surviving piece of six-part music is the English rota Sumer is icumen in (ca. 1240). (Albright, 2004)     Wikipedia really annoys me sometimes - the Reading Rota, "Sumer is Icumen In" is the very first written example of a Round (like the tunes "London's Burning" or "Frere Jaques"). It is NOT specifically an early example of polyphony - a better example would have been Byrd's 40-part motet "Spem in Alium". The Reading Rota is not written in 6-parts at all, but was conceptualised contrapuntally so that 6 could sing it and join in at regular intervals, building up the round. Wikipedia makes the distinction between Fugue (counterpoint) and polyphony, yet the Round is a primitive and simplified version of the fugue. Marillion's music on "Script..." is an excellent example of both polyphonic and contrapuntal music writing, albeit at a different level to Gentle Giant.

I thought that piece was by Thomas Tallis - I bought a Tallis CD for She Who Must Be Obeyed for Xmas and that contains a jaw droppingly complex 40 piece motet called Spem In Alium. Essential stuff, and I agree that it's rare to hear polyphony of that complexity in prog, GG aside.

Syzygy wrote: I thought that piece was by Thomas Tallis - I bought a Tallis CD for She Who Must Be Obeyed for Xmas and that contains a jaw droppingly complex 40 piece motet called Spem In Alium. Essential stuff, and I agree that it's rare to hear polyphony of that complexity in prog, GG aside.

You thought right... I wrote Byrd twice, but meant Tallis... to think I actually studied that work in my 2nd year and thought it was by the Byrds...

It's an amazing work to hear a performance of - I first heard it in England's oldest remaining Saxon round church, and the choirs were placed around the circumference of the church. The acoustics were stunning, and the audience was completely immersed in the incredible music.

http://www.audio-b.com/acoustictriangle/venue7.html - http://www.audio-b.com/acoustictriangle/venue7.html http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.audio-b.com/images/sacred_venues/Northampton.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.audio-b.com/acoustictriangle/venue7.html&h=340&w=340&sz=12&tbnid=f_SeJR2QwNU_lM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=115&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dholy%2Bsepulchre%2Bnorthampton%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D -

A most uplifting experience

richardh wrote: Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too... I'll put a mention in for Siouxsie And The Banshees as well.There were some decent punk bands ..pity they had such a crappy attitude

Yes, some good stuff there, too. Echo and the Bunnymen were another fave of mine.

If the Stranglers were in, many others of the era would have to be as well, IMO.

I would hazard to guess that a lot of the apparent "attitude" of such bands of that era was "affected" (ie, manufactured) at the urging of the industry, and also by the artists, to give them "cred" and thereby enhance sales.

In any case, I just listen to the music -- I didn't regularly read any music press/mags then, and still don't (not as a matter of policy or anything, but good music mags are not found around here, and, in any case, most artists aren't so interesting when off stage, to me).

Peter wrote: richardh wrote: Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too... I'll put a mention in for Siouxsie And The Banshees as well.There were some decent punk bands ..pity they had such a crappy attitude Yes, some good stuff there, too. Echo and the Bunnymen were another fave of mine. If the Stranglers were in, many others of the era would have to be as well, IMO. I would hazard to guess that a lot of the apparent "attitude" of such bands of that era was "affected" (ie, manufactured) at the urging of the industry, and also by the artists, to give them "cred" and thereby enhance sales. In any case, I just listen to the music -- I didn't regularly read any music press/mags then, and still don't (not as a matter of policy or anything, but good music mags are not found around here, and, in any case, most artists aren't so interesting when off stage, to me).

One of the really odd things about the Stranglers is the kind of "etching" they can leave behind in the bit of your brain that remembers music...

I always remember the music as being fantastic, and Burnel's bass lines especially run through my head whenever I think about their music... but I listened to "No More Heroes" (the album) tonight, and it was so much better than I remembered it being...

Did I ever mention that I met Ian McCulloch (singer of Echo and the Bunnymen) one morning as I was enjoying a nice cup of tea and a sit down at Barriemore Barlowe's kitchen table?

I'll get me coat...

BaldFriede wrote: When it comes to Punk, I can only recommend Inner City Unit again; their albums "Pass Out", "Punkadelic" and "The President Tapes" were excellent; "New Anatomy" and "The Maximum Effect" are not quite as good, in my opinion, though they have their moments (the song about Elivs Presley on "The Maximum Effect" always makes me smile). Inner City Unit are "progressive punk", in my opinion.

Indeed - "Punkadelic" has some fantastic (and quite a few rambling) moments, and is Prog related. I particularly like "Space Invaders" and "Watching the Grass Grow". 

I think that "Progressive Punk" is a bit of a dangerous term, though - I don't think I'd like to see Green Day, Gang Green, Killing Joke or Black Flag in the archives. However, it'd be cool to see bands like Culture Shock here along with the Stranglers.

Peter:

I only know a few of Echo and the Bunnymen's singles - can you recommend any of their albums as being particularly "progressive" or of interest to Prog heads?