Why is it that when most people refer to the prog Giants they refer to: Genesis Yes and ELP.  Elp's highest ranked album ranks as #45 according to the list on this site.  That puts quite a few bands ahead of ELP.

I'm not trying to bash them here, I just don't understand why on this site, people write Genesis, Yes and ELP, and on this site ELP sits as #45. 
The first two are right, but Pink Floyd, J-Tull, King Crimson, Rush, Camel, DT, Riverside, VdGG, Gentle Giant, Porcupine Tree, Änglagård, Caravan, Marillion, Pain of Salvation, Tool, Supertramp and Focus sit above ELP as top 3 contenders according to the collective opinions of the people of this site. 
That makes 17 bands that aren't getting what they deserve whenever someone says Genesis, Yes and ELP.  ELP's second best is #56 and 3rd is #76  according to this site and their 4th best doesn't make the top 100.

Again I'm not bashing them just trying to understand why we bash 17+ other bands that deserve that top 3 mention more.

The list is based on ratings so it doesn’t really mean

Anything. Anyway not everyone classifies ELP as

A prog giant.

I think Phil has got it exactly right. A lot of ELP reviews I've read here knock off a few stars for tracks like "Benny the Bouncer" and "Are you ready Eddy", plus there are a lot of people who don't like them.

In my recent band chart, which was based on the PA Top 100, ELP came 12th, just below Dream Theater.

I know I am a newbie but I am not a new Prog Rock fan.  Nearly 40 years worth of knowledge and I cannot believe that ELP get the slating and lack of recognition.

Top Keyboards of the 70's era - Rick Wakeman & Keith Emerson (hence why Rick still wants to work with him).  Also who helped Dr Moog develop the Synth

Top Drummer of the 70's era - Carl Palmer - whose drum kit needed a replica so it was recreated right on stage and also introduced Synth Drumming

Top Vocalist and great guitar play - Greg Lake - Always rated as one of the greatest Prog Rock singers with such a large octive range.

I love YES - seen them nearly 20 times - own the whole collection.  Feel the early Genesis produced some very distinctive Prog Rock music then later in the 80's sold out.

ELP produced some great music but sadly let themselves down with the likes of 'benny' and 'eddie' tracks. then lost the plot after 'Works'.  But they all three stand tall both then and now (as I have seen all three recently and they were brilliant).

Get off there back guys and give them the true recognition. (or Tarkus is coming to get you)

ELP produced some great music but sadly let themselves down with the likes of 'benny' and 'eddie' tracks. then lost the plot after 'Works'.  But they all three stand tall both then and now (as I have seen all three recently and they were brilliant).>>

I love Benny and eddie.  My first ELP BSS was an 8 track and Bennie was the last number after KE9 3rd Impression.  I always liked that because the poly moog opening to Benny fit so well after that Moog test sequencing that ends KE 9.  I think that if they had used that sequence on the album, they could have put the 1st impression all on one side. 

Ii think a part of the problem is that ELP fans are more critical and less likely to rate all their albums a five like Genesis fans do.  I understand that not everyone will be able to get into ELP, like the three fates.  But I think that the imperative to neo-classicism that Emo whole heartedly espoused was the most important influence of prog.

The reason why Genesis is so important is because of their influence on neo-prog bands, Marillion, musical Pendragon, etc. When I was in college we joked about the neo-prog bands at the college radio station.  Each time we got an album we would say, abnother band that should sue Genesisi for stealing theri sound."  There legacy really lies with Gabriel and had he not become such a big player in his solo carreer, Genesis would not have become such a big player.  I do not hear alot of influence of early Genesis is new prog.  Six Degrees of Inner Tubulance has a lot of Peter Gabriel in it. So I think that Genesis influence separate from Gabriel is mute.  Where as you can hear the influence of Fripp, Yes and ELP in the new prog bands. There could be a band out there that could disprove this claim, I just have not heard it.

PS do not diminish Jethro Tull.  Of all the bands mentioned for me, Jethro Tull's legacy is the strongest overall; lyrics, music, concepts, ensemble, integration and experimentation with different elements; and it is based on the talents of one man. He created a prog sound that was uniquelly British as opposed to English;  it integrated Brit rock and jazz with old English and Celtic music.

The albums ratings are based on the appraisal of bands albums not the bands themselves.Other criteria should then be ignored presumably? ie Live Shows,Progressiveness,Influence on other bands etc.

The fact that there are no ELP albums that are true 'masterpieces' does not matter to me. I love them because they were quirky and interesting.Their albums contain lots of different things ie:

A Christmas record

A honky tonk piano peice

An acoustic epic

A hymn (more than one actually!)

A rock n roll track

A bolero

A piano concerto

A Bach percussion peice

etc

plus a complete classical work adapted for rock

They were a fearless band that got out there and did ''it'' while others worried about the consequences.They deserve due recognition for that and its not out of place to rate them alongside the steadier but far less interesting major prog bands Yes and Genesis.

Lord Qwerty's only problem with ELP is that they're very inconsistent. But he still enjoys their music, even if he is very selective with songs.

Speaking as one who was there at the time, ELP is in the "top three" for many reasons, but primarily because they were one of the first powerful, distinctive-sounding progressive bands to cross over into the mainstream, however briefly. and, by doing this, they became a widely popular, very influential band.

Many who may not have been turned on to them were exposed to their awesome first lps. Of course over time, ELP imploded, but when they were on the rise, they achieved heights that few other prog bands ever attained.

I mean it's sort of like this: If this was an American Literature website, I doubt Herman Melville would be at the top, because instead its members would fill the top slots with Stephen King and Michael Crichton and that DaVinci Code guy, but the reality is that Herman Melville influenced the course of American Literature at its roots and probably significantly influenced King, Critchton et al. as well. That's why Melville is in the "big three," even though the majority of readers read the Davinci code guy and rate him higher than Melville.

Thank you.

Never did they have the collaboration that Yes or Tull had.  Just a couple of good players in a austentacious group.  Singularly they are fantastic and deserve their fame but together... eh... nothing special.>>

 I think one should reconsider Trilogy and Karneveil 9.  Trliogy is an experimentaion in thematic transformation, a true attemp to write an art song in the context of the genre of rock.  Spoiled by those mediocre at best lyrics. 

KE9 is lyrically somewhat better, ELP  having brought in Lake's old pal Sinfield. the First Impression part 1 is is a piace that concieves of a rock song outside of the confines of pop song structures.  Not that there is anythig wrong wth pop.  I think that Genesis and Yes were at their best when they wrote good "songs." (Don't even really much like CTTE.) But ELP was never at its best when they wrote pop song material: Lucky Man, From the Beginning.

They were intense and they had chops. They had good songs and they each had their own personality... they totally own so many bands.

I usually visit many forums an Prog pages plus try to read all the books about Prog' availlable in this forgotten part of the world, and there are somee things in common:

1. People always talk about the big 5, 6 or 7 bands in Prog history.
2. 5 of them are always constant:
• Yes
• Genesis
• ELP
• King Crimson
• Pink Floyd
3. But despite being ELP a top 5, their albums are not rated so high.
4. Almost everybody agrees ELP had a very short career till they reached the peak and went downhill (From self titled to Brain Salad Surgery).
5. Nobody can forgive them for Love Beach and In the Hot Seat.
6. Many people think ELP represents the excesive pomp and self indulgence that almost destroyed Prog (I disagree, because that's exactly what I like more about ELP)
7. Keith Emerson shows are disgusting and even vulgar in some ocasions especially when he stabs organs or rubs a ribbon in his butt to make a sound.

Now my personal opinion:

1. ELP is a top band that contributed with Prog development.
2. ELP reached the peak with BSS in 1974, everything recorded after that has a lower level.
• Works I: Emerson's side is simply not in his level, Piano Concerto N° 1 is a mixture of several influences without feet and head. Lake's side is full of poppy ballads Carl's side is the best of the album, Side 4 is good, but the songs are too répetitive and long, would have been much better if lasted 50% less.
• Works II: Is just a collection of leftovers from other albums, they betrayed their fanbase and this contributed to loose popularity among progheads.
• Love Beach: Cheesy from the cover to the last note, not even Memoirs is near the average, self indulgent but low quality. They took revenge against the label that forced them to release this album, but the fans paid the bill and never forgave the trio.
• Black Moon: Much better but still not remotely near to the quality of early ELP
• In the Hot Seat: Good for two stars because of the studio version of Pictures at an Exhibuition, the rest is terrible.
• Re-Works (Brain Salad Perjury): Crap of the worst kind, a trance album that plays 5 or 6 different versions of Fanfare for the Common Man. The worst album a Prog band ever released. 
3. Man by man they aren't so strong as the three playing together, their solo careers is a prove of that.
4. Keith Emerson, great keyboardist, very energetic and charismatic, but IMO is far behind the level of technique by Wakeman, Moraz or Nocenzi to mention 3
5. Greg Lake: Execlent vocal range, but a bit emotionless IMO, as a bassist and guitarist he's not espectacular, great songwritter with weakness for soft poppy ballads.
6. Carl Palmer: Incredible with the bass dums, very good with the snares, but weak with the metals, great arrangements and a charismatic guy, top drummer.
7. ELP's career was going up, but they decided to stop recording for three years after Brain Salad Surgery. In 1997 they found another musical scenario, and they were trying to do exactly the same thing than in 1974 but without success and with  less imagination.
8. Having played with several labels, each one of the right owners has released two or three compilations of very low quality that didn't contributed with people who bought the albums just because the name ELP was on the label and all compilations are almost exact.
9. They have the best box set (The Return of the Manticore) along with Genesis Archives I (Because of The Lamb Live).

Iván

No, Shut up!  ELP rocks!  Buy all of their (early) albums!

<---luckyman_123

Legoman wrote:

Sorry, Legoman, but according to this website the author (Dan Brown) must be a man...

http://www.danbrown.com/ - http://www.danbrown.com/

BTW, I started to read the book but never ended.  Maybe the translation was not good enough.

micky wrote: ivan_2068 wrote:   Greg Lake: Execlent vocal range, but a bit emotionless IMO, as a bassist and guitarist he's not espectacular, great songwritter with weakness for soft poppy ballads. Iván Very well said, and agree with 88.9% of your post wholeheartedly however..... say what you will about the at times HORRID nature of ELP lyrics, but the messenger... come on.  Emotionless?  don't know about you,  but I feel the aggression in his vocals in songs like Knife's Edge, and Living Sin (two off the top of my head).  I can 'feel' his laughter and humor in the songs typically called the throwaway tracks on ELP albums like Are You Ready Eddy, and Benny the Bouncer. His emotional vocals helped spawn the 'Ladies of the Lake'.   Probably along with Hammill the greatest  of the prog vocalists.  In any case, the vocals are rarely if EVER mentioned as a weakness of ELP, the lyrics though are another matter.....

Thanks Micky, and I agree with you, that's why I said A BIT EMOTIONLESS, in some songs he surely adds a special touch, but not in all.

Take for example Lucky Man, the ending is very dramatic, the rich kid with all the advantages dies defending his country and his king, but Greg doesn't show any emotion, almost static from start to end.

Imagine how descriptive you can get while narrating that "the blood ran and he died". Here Greg losts a great chance to add drama, all the emotion is added by Keith's Moog that is almost as a cry of pain and loneliness.

And you have a lot of songs like this one, mostly on the ballads Greg prefers to keep a soft poppy melody instead of adding emotion. Ces't La Vie is a great example, for God's sake all the sadness is added by the orchestra and the violins and Greg doesn't make a single inflection in his voice.

The terrible thing is that as you mention he can be emotive, he proved it in other songs, but sometimes he doesn't even make the try, and he had one of the most beautiful and strong vocal ranges I ever heard.

Iván

Gianthogweed wrote: Genesis had seven great albums (one of which was a double), and all of King Crimson's albums are good (though I don't think any of them reached the calibre of Yes or Genesis in their prime).

Genesis never made one great album. They made albums with some great songs on them but lots of filler also. Yes never made one album with filler in the 70's. I will also repeat that the fact that the production on every Gabriel Genesis album was not top notch which in itself does not make any album a masterpiece!

^ Re Ivans comments, Greg Lake actually sings Lucky Man live superbly.When I saw ELP live in 1992 that was the highlight of the show.The studio version was recorded very early on when Greg was still defining his vocal style.

I reckon his best singing in on Trilogy.''Emotionless'' NO! Listen to the opening to the track Trilogy,From The Beginning or The Endless Enigma Pts 1 and 2.Great stuff from Mr Lake and plenty of emotion. The problem with his singing on some ELP albums like say BSS though is that he was singing 'non emotional' sci fi lyrics(KE9 in particular).There it is a slightly different story but you have to put the singing in the context of the music IMO.

I reckon his best singing in on Trilogy.''Emotionless'' NO! Listen to the opening to the track Trilogy,From The Beginning or The Endless Enigma Pts 1 and 2.Great stuff from Mr Lake and plenty of emotion. The problem with his singing on some ELP albums like say BSS though is that he was singing 'non emotional' sci fi lyrics(KE9 in particular).There it is a slightly different story but you have to put the singing in the context of the music IMO.>..

Lake had that romantic balladeer thing going pretty strong.  When he sang something like Trilogy or Watching Over You it really worked well. For me, that is part of the dramatic excitement of the band.  You have Lake who is a sentimental, romantic, and Emerson and Palmer who are aggressive modernists.  Of course, it was Lake who ran the show, which helped since it was two against one. I never met Lake but Palmer and Emo are quite nice guys.   I would assume Lake is a stronger personality, I mean he could deal with Fripp. 

Lake often sang higher on record than on stage.  I remember reading Emo saying, I read this thirty years ago so it's a little blurry, that after they recorded BSS Lake came to Emerson and said that he could not sing this as high live as on the album and Emo had to go back and relearn the whole thing transposed down, in three days before the tour began . I pretty sure it was BSS; I could check it against Welcome Back to be sure. It's maddening on the baritone voice when you are continually expected to sing in the upper range. Of course, there are people who have the technique to do it, Peter Pears and that guy from Dream Theater.

Progger wrote: Gianthogweed wrote: Genesis had seven great albums (one of which was a double), and all of King Crimson's albums are good (though I don't think any of them reached the calibre of Yes or Genesis in their prime). Genesis never made one great album. They made albums with some great songs on them but lots of filler also. Yes never made one album with filler in the 70's. I will also repeat that the fact that the production on every Gabriel Genesis album was not top notch which in itself does not make any album a masterpiece!

Progger, I respect TOTALLY your opinion (even not agreeing with it), but why not write before the sentence the abbrevs. IMO or IMHO, for instance? The way you wrote the above text it seems "the truth above all the truthes" instead of simply 'your truth'. Thank you!

Atkingani wrote: Progger wrote: Gianthogweed wrote: Genesis had seven great albums (one of which was a double), and all of King Crimson's albums are good (though I don't think any of them reached the calibre of Yes or Genesis in their prime). Genesis never made one great album. They made albums with some great songs on them but lots of filler also. Yes never made one album with filler in the 70's. I will also repeat that the fact that the production on every Gabriel Genesis album was not top notch which in itself does not make any album a masterpiece! Progger, I respect TOTALLY your opinion (even not agreeing with it), but why not write before the sentence the abbrevs. IMO or IMHO, for instance? The way you wrote the above text it seems "the thruth above all the thruthes" instead of simply 'your thruth'. Thank you!

I normally do but in the case of Genesis production I speak the truth!

Sometimes I think that ELP type keyboard prog music rocks more than ELP themselves!

Anyway, albuns like Trilogy or Brain Salad Surgery can´t be beaten!!

richardh wrote: ^ Re Ivans comments, Greg Lake actually sings Lucky Man live superbly.When I saw ELP live in 1992 that was the highlight of the show.The studio version was recorded very early on when Greg was still defining his vocal style. Yes Richard, his voice is superb and I said it many times, probably the most beautiful vocal range in the market. But I sill feel that his performance of Lucky Man in the self titled album lacks of the emotion that the lyrics have. I would say the same thing about Ces't La Vie, or Closer to Believing, two songs that leave me cold. That's another thing that reminds me of John Wetton who has a very similar voice, but John is even less emotive. I reckon his best singing in on Trilogy.''Emotionless'' NO! Listen to the opening to the track Trilogy,From The Beginning or The Endless Enigma Pts 1 and 2.Great stuff from Mr Lake and plenty of emotion. The problem with his singing on some ELP albums like say BSS though is that he was singing 'non emotional' sci fi lyrics(KE9 in particular).There it is a slightly different story but you have to put the singing in the context of the music IMO. The problem with Greg is that he plays with Keith, EMO is a natural showman, and Greg isn't, Lake is a serious sober vocalist, but he leaves the showmanship to the keyboardist. IMO you can add emotion to Sci Fi, take for example Ashley Holt, a guy who's voice is not a shadow of Greg's, but when he sings some passages of No Earthly Connection or Journey to the Centre of the Earth, he's absolutely emotional despite both are Sci Fi albums. But yes you're right, Greg is emotional in some songs like Lend your Love to Me Tonight which is sung with a lot of strenght and drama.  But has a trouble with wmotion in others, lke Lucky Man and From the Beginning (Here I disagree with you), that's why I said "A BIT" emotionless.

Iván

elpprogster wrote: Sometimes I think that ELP type keyboard prog music rocks more than ELP themselves! Anyway, albuns like Trilogy or Brain Salad Surgery can´t be beaten!!

Here's someone who knows what their talking about! The only album that can be compared to BSS is CTTE!

ELP are in many ways more infamous than they are loved. Their reputation as a prog giant is mostly based on how outlandish and successful they were, not on the quality of the music itself. Nowadays a lot of their music can come across as a bit... (dare I say this?) ...tacky. >>

Emo's legacy is marred by the fact that the musical world was not ready for him.  He tried to take rock to the next level, fully integrating it with an orchestra, as on Pirates, like Bersntein had done before him. He was not the first but he was the one who constantly pushed the envelop to lessen the gap between rock and the symphony.  Rock composers like Emo and Zappa got a lot of flack from orchestra musicians for their music.  I don't know how other faired in that regard.

Emos piano concerto is very solid in its creation of ideas, but he lacks the technique to write a good concerto. (Rachmaninoff's first is not that interesting either.) He's written a second but cannot get it performed.

soundspectrum wrote: I think that people are just not as open minded while listening to ELP as they should be. I like all of their stuff (well almost all) but here are a large percentage of people who bash them because they are not consistently throwing neo classical compositions in your face, and take breaks with songs like jeremy bender, and the sheriff. Even still you turn me on is hated by some....I dont think as those tunes as filler, really they are making the band not so 1 dimensional

Excellent point well put!

[QUOTE=soundspectrum]I think that people are just not as open minded while listening to ELP as they should be. I like all of their stuff (well almost all) but here are a large percentage of people who bash them because they are not consistently throwing neo classical compositions in your face, and take breaks with songs like jeremy bender, and the sheriff. Even still you turn me on is hated by some....I dont think as those tunes as filler, really they are making the band not so 1 dimensional>>>

Excellent point well put!

I second it.

ELP was about the embrace of music from barrelhouse blues and gutter rock-n-roll to cabaret and Prokofiev. This is what progressive rock was about, a mixture of pop, rock, blues, folk, jazz, psychedelia, electronica, the avante-garde, classical and whatever elements you could get you're hands on, madrigals in the case of Genesis, Celtic music in the case of Tull, or Indian music in the case of the Moodies.

you've misinterpreted everything i said Ivan.

Right, i've tried to read down through every post on this thread but I have to reply NOW!!

If there is one thing I HATE when it comes to ELP (or prog itself) is that people call it 'Emotionless', that pisses me off more than I can put into words. Songs like From the Beginning, Trilogy, The Endless Enigma, even Karn Evil 9!! have a LOT of emotion in them, and when I listen to songs like those I can FEEL it, I mean Lake is an exceptional singer, and when he sings certain lines like 'Why do you think I believe what you say, few OF your words ever enter my head', that line actually sends shivers down my spine. It's not as if he's READING is he, he's SINGING!!!! I mean he's not melodramatic, he doesn't over do it, he seems very 'honest' when he sings. And the melodies are just so nice a lot of the time, I love his choirboy like voice, it's beautiful.

To me ELP have always felt like 'An always arguing family', but a FAMILY none the less, I think there is still a lot of love between the guys (Emerson actually said it, that's something) even if they were never in constant agreement.

ELP were one of the first prog bands I got into, the first time I heard Brain Salad Surgery I thought 'Did I just watch a film?!!', It was such a different world. ELP unfortunately did not last as long as other Prog giants, however I feel they gave us two 5 star masterpieces 'Trilogy' and 'Brain Salad Surgery', with three excellent albums before it. They were outrageous yet absolutely magnificent (especially live). It's a shame that the record companies are releasing so many crap boxsets and useless garbage under the ELP name. To me it's a crying shame that they have such a bad reputation, all fuelled by the 'everything must be standard' media. When I bought the Q special edition mag I cannot tell you how delighted I was to see Brain Salad Surgery' in five, I was so over the moon.

Kieth Emerson is as talented as they come and gave it one thousand percent in the early days, I love those lush sounding keyboards on Trilogy, he is one of the only keyboardists to have a sound recognisable within 10 seconds of hearing it. And Palmer, christ, what another major talent, i've never seen such a breathtaking drummer, watch him live, he just looks amazing playing some of those solo pieces.

ELP are in the 'Top 5' because, in their day, they had huge success, they were innovative and stunning, and even if they are not appreciated as much today as they were then, they still DESERVE to be in that 'Top 5'

I apologise for my post being so long, but this is a band that means a lot to me and I feel I should defend them, there are so many people who just slate them for no real reason. And i'll pretty much fight to the death in doing so.

ivan_2068 wrote: Winter Wine wrote: Right, i've tried to read down through every post on this thread but I have to reply NOW!! If there is one thing I HATE when it comes to ELP (or prog itself) is that people call it 'Emotionless', that pisses me off more than I can put into words. Songs like From the Beginning, Trilogy, The Endless Enigma, even Karn Evil 9!! have a LOT of emotion in them, and when I listen to songs like those I can FEEL it, I mean Lake is an exceptional singer, and when he sings certain lines like 'Why do you think I believe what you say, few OF your words ever enter my head', that line actually sends shivers down my spine. It's not as if he's READING is he, he's SINGING!!!! I mean he's not melodramatic, he doesn't over do it, he seems very 'honest' when he sings. And the melodies are just so nice a lot of the time, I love his choirboy like voice, it's beautiful. Don't hate me Winter Wine, I don't think ELP is emotionless, I said a BIT emotionless, because in certain songs I believe Greg could add a lot of drama, the lyrics of Lucky Man for example are very powerful (I believe Greg wrote that song when he was 12!!!! Great merit), but he doesn't exploit the wide range of chances he had. But songs like Lend Your Love To Me Tonight (Which is not among my favorites) is an incredible performance of Greg that almost brings me to tears. To me ELP have always felt like 'An always arguing family', but a FAMILY none the less, I think there is still a lot of love between the guys (Emerson actually said it, that's something) even if they were never in constant agreement. That's the problem when all the members of a band are stars, EMO came from being The Nice (He was 90% of the band IMO) Greg was a crucial member of King Crimson and played with Hensley and Kerslake in The Gods, Carl came from being the new wonder kid in one of the best albums ever heard (The Crazy World of Arthur Brown). So all of them were stars and all of them good songwritters and arrangers. I imagine they had a great problem deciding who's material was going to be included in an album, and made the only album (I believe) in which each artist has one side. This is good competence and I like it, they gave their best up to BSS and were an icon of the genre. ELP were one of the first prog bands I got into, the first time I heard Brain Salad Surgery I thought 'Did I just watch a film?!!', It was such a different world. ELP unfortunately did not last as long as other Prog giants, however I feel they gave us two 5 star masterpieces 'Trilogy' and 'Brain Salad Surgery', with three excellent albums before it. If you read my ratings, I gave 5 stars toi both albums, the only one I don't like too much is Tarkus, but that's personal taste. They had the second best debut album from a big 5 band after ITCOTCK. They were outrageous yet absolutely magnificent (especially live). It's a shame that the record companies are releasing so many crap boxsets and useless garbage under the ELP name. To me it's a crying shame that they have such a bad reputation, all fuelled by the 'everything must be standard' media. When I bought the Q special edition mag I cannot tell you how delighted I was to see Brain Salad Surgery' in five, I was so over the moon. I only saw them a couple of times in the 90's and still were a great show. Better than the earlier, because Keith was much more sober than when he was younger. Kieth Emerson is as talented as they come and gave it one thousand percent in the early days, I love those lush sounding keyboards on Trilogy, he is one of the only keyboardists to have a sound recognisable within 10 seconds of hearing it. And Palmer, christ, what another major talent, i've never seen such a breathtaking drummer, watch him live, he just looks amazing playing some of those solo pieces. Palmer is a great drummer, top ten but still I find him a bit weak with the metals. ELP are in the 'Top 5' because, in their day, they had huge success, they were innovative and stunning, and even if they are not appreciated as much today as they were then, they still DESERVE to be in that 'Top 5' There's alwqays room for Trilogy and BSS in my stereo. I apologise for my post being so long, but this is a band that means a lot to me and I feel I should defend them, there are so many people who just slate them for no real reason. And i'll pretty much fight to the death in doing so. Don't apologize, this place is to express what you feel despite the lenght. Iván

Well Ivan that's a fair analysis of my post. I'm happy someone decided to read it all to be honest

I misjudged what you said earlier about ELP having no emotion and I apologize. I am glad you gave Both 'Trilogy' and 'Brain Salad Surgery' five stars.

If there's any album I admire by ELP (Even when it's not my favorite), is Pictures at an Exhibition.

Imagine, a supergroup in front of several thousand of fans asking for Prog Rock, and this guys play a relatively obscure Mussorgsky work (I say relatively obscure because the Russian Nationalist Movement was not so appreciated in the 70's as it is today, despite I've always been a hardcoire fan of the Mighty Handfull).

I'm sure 90% of the kids (if not more) that were watching that concert had never heard the original Mussorgsky masterpiece, and I believe they were expecting something different, but all left the show delighted.

You need balls to do that and ELP had enough, they dared to try something so outrageous and so innovative (Not the music, but the Prog arrangement of an entire late Romantic/early Modern Classical work) and the result was wonderful (except for the ribbon in Keith's butt ).

If they had done an entire arrangement of Beethoven's Fifth or Ninth Symphony, it would have been easier because everybody is familiar with them, biut to take a risk with somethibng so complex and exquisit as Pictures at an Exhibition, requires great skills and courage.

Iván

Jethro Tull put out consistently good albums all through th seventies, Yes had at least four great albums and a bunch of really good albums, Genesis had seven great albums (one of which was a double), and all of King Crimson's albums are good (though I don't think any of them reached the calibre of Yes or Genesis in their prime). >>>

The legacy of Yes cannot be overstated. Those three early albums are classical.  The Yes Album, still my favorite.  The followup, with those four mega pieces, defined the genre.  That's all it did. CTTE, not one of my favorites, but I recognize it as one of the classics of the genre because I know it has affected do many people. 

Honestly, I have not listened to Relayer in 30 years, but will pick it up because it is so highly talked about and listed on this site.  Then there's Going for the One.  another 5 star album.

They are so popular and were huge in the 1970s although never reaching mega-stardom; but they were huge because they were great. Do not take that away from them.

hahahah not a fan of the quote pyramids are you..

The Yes Album is still my favorite, not only Yes album, but album period and hundreds...maybe thousands of listens over the years has done nothing to change that.  I also feel the same way as you about CttE, actually find the similar in tone TFTO more interesting of an album, thus amoung my top favorites.  What do you think of Drama?   Another album I'm looking forward to reviewing...
[/QUOTE]

I do not have Drama in my collection anymore;  I have not heard it in 26 years. I do remember it though.  . . "I am a camera, camera, camera" and "I asked my love to give me shee-e-e-e-lter, but all she offered my was dreams."  It had some good hooks, if I can remember them after 26 years. I saw the tour, the last in the round.  thenround was a grat idea and showed that Yes even though they had become an arena act, was trying to stay connected to their fans.

About the Yes album I have often asked myself, Ken is this your favorite album of all time, so I know what you mean.  The lyricism that Anderson achieves on this album is beatiful, especially in the transition section of Starship Trooper, "Speak to me of summers . . ." The lyricism of this album may not be matched in anything I have heard in prog and that is one of the things that I like about the album.  Anderson's voice is unique and maybe not for everyone's taste.  He and Geddy Lee are the last of the castrati. But he could acheive marvelous shades of beauty, optimism, humanity and transcendence.  My favorite part of this album is the end of Perpetual Change when they have that part that Bruford wrote in the ensemble and then the guitar riff comes in against it. Great Stuff and showed the band fully working together before the fracture of Fragile, yet another wonderful album, full of drama and symphonic gestures.

ken4musiq wrote: hahahah not a fan of the quote pyramids are you.. The Yes Album is still my favorite, not only Yes album, but album period and hundreds...maybe thousands of listens over the years has done nothing to change that.  I also feel the same way as you about CttE, actually find the similar in tone TFTO more interesting of an album, thus amoung my top favorites.  What do you think of Drama?   Another album I'm looking forward to reviewing...

I do not have Drama in my collection anymore;  I have not heard it in 26 years. I do remember it though.  . . "I am a camera, camera, camera" and "I asked my love to give me shee-e-e-e-lter, but all she offered my was dreams."  It had some good hooks, if I can remember them after 26 years. I saw the tour, the last in the round.  thenround was a grat idea and showed that Yes even though they had become an arena act, was trying to stay connected to their fans.

About the Yes album I have often asked myself, Ken is this your favorite album of all time, so I know what you mean.  The lyricism that Anderson achieves on this album is beatiful, especially in the transition section of Starship Trooper, "Speak to me of summers . . ." The lyricism of this album may not be matched in anything I have heard in prog and that is one of the things that I like about the album.  Anderson's voice is unique and maybe not for everyone's taste.  He and Geddy Lee are the last of the castrati. But he could acheive marvelous shades of beauty, optimism, humanity and transcendence.  My favorite part of this album is the end of Perpetual Change when they have that part that Bruford wrote in the ensemble and then the guitar riff comes in against it. Great Stuff and showed the band fully working together before the fracture of Fragile, yet another wonderful album, full of drama and symphonic gestures.

[/QUOTE]

I like what you say about Yes. I think that not enough people give The Yes Album the credit it deserves, from start to finish every second is amazing, and I love that lyrics to Yours is no Disgrace, 'On a sailing ship to nowhere leaving any place, if the summer changed to winter YOURS IS NO DISGRACE' the album is so cohesive and fun! hehe, in my opinion it's slightly better than Fragile, but that to is a masterpiece.

I'm not too experienced in prog yet, but I feel, after listening to Karn Evil 9 in its entirety for the first time a few days ago and then repeating that experience about 20 times, that Emerson was a master composer. Just based off those 4 tracks, it is obvious to me. There wan't a single part where I was not completely into the music. I quite enjoyed the other tracks as well, though I had heard them on a best of CD already (with the exception of Benny the Bouncer).

The structure is perfect, the progression of melody is perfect, the interplay between the instruments (especially keyboard and bass) is amazing, the vocals only serve to enhance the feeling even more (especially the last 4 lines of 3rd Impression).

Funnily enough, some parts reminded me of musicals, and many more were reminiscent of old video game soundtracks - I'm sure many composers shared influences with and were influenced by ELP.

Walri wrote: I'm not too experienced in prog yet, but I feel, after listening to Karn Evil 9 in its entirety for the first time a few days ago and then repeating that experience about 20 times, that Emerson was a master composer. Just based off those 4 tracks, it is obvious to me. There wan't a single part where I was not completely into the music. I quite enjoyed the other tracks as well, though I had heard them on a best of CD already (with the exception of Benny the Bouncer). The structure is perfect, the progression of melody is perfect, the interplay between the instruments (especially keyboard and bass) is amazing, the vocals only serve to enhance the feeling even more (especially the last 4 lines of 3rd Impression). Funnily enough, some parts reminded me of musicals, and many more were reminiscent of old video game soundtracks - I'm sure many composers shared influences with and were influenced by ELP.

Brain Salad Surgery is a masterpiece, all the way through it never loses my attention. Karn Evil 9 is a piece of music that will be remembered for a hundred years

  We don´t have to agree w/ the others ... and we can´t say that there are 17 bands batter than ELP .... rating an raking are all bullsh*ts

dunguinha wrote:     We don´t have to agree w/ the others ... and we can´t say that there are 17 bands batter than ELP .... rating an raking are all bullsh*ts

Yes - for example, Dream Theater's best is listed as SFAM, and Pain of Salvation's as The Perfect Element. That's just insulting - Images and Words and Entropia, respectively, are far better. The Perfect Element is utterly unremarkable and the story is terrible. Sorry, I went off on a tangent there.

Winter Wine wrote: Right, i've tried to read down through every post on this thread but I have to reply NOW!! If there is one thing I HATE when it comes to ELP (or prog itself) is that people call it 'Emotionless', that pisses me off more than I can put into words. Songs like From the Beginning, Trilogy, The Endless Enigma, even Karn Evil 9!! have a LOT of emotion in them, and when I listen to songs like those I can FEEL it, I mean Lake is an exceptional singer, and when he sings certain lines like 'Why do you think I believe what you say, few OF your words ever enter my head', that line actually sends shivers down my spine. It's not as if he's READING is he, he's SINGING!!!! I mean he's not melodramatic, he doesn't over do it, he seems very 'honest' when he sings. And the melodies are just so nice a lot of the time, I love his choirboy like voice, it's beautiful. To me ELP have always felt like 'An always arguing family', but a FAMILY none the less, I think there is still a lot of love between the guys (Emerson actually said it, that's something) even if they were never in constant agreement. ELP were one of the first prog bands I got into, the first time I heard Brain Salad Surgery I thought 'Did I just watch a film?!!', It was such a different world. ELP unfortunately did not last as long as other Prog giants, however I feel they gave us two 5 star masterpieces 'Trilogy' and 'Brain Salad Surgery', with three excellent albums before it. They were outrageous yet absolutely magnificent (especially live). It's a shame that the record companies are releasing so many crap boxsets and useless garbage under the ELP name. To me it's a crying shame that they have such a bad reputation, all fuelled by the 'everything must be standard' media. When I bought the Q special edition mag I cannot tell you how delighted I was to see Brain Salad Surgery' in five, I was so over the moon. Kieth Emerson is as talented as they come and gave it one thousand percent in the early days, I love those lush sounding keyboards on Trilogy, he is one of the only keyboardists to have a sound recognisable within 10 seconds of hearing it. And Palmer, christ, what another major talent, i've never seen such a breathtaking drummer, watch him live, he just looks amazing playing some of those solo pieces. ELP are in the 'Top 5' because, in their day, they had huge success, they were innovative and stunning, and even if they are not appreciated as much today as they were then, they still DESERVE to be in that 'Top 5' I apologise for my post being so long, but this is a band that means a lot to me and I feel I should defend them, there are so many people who just slate them for no real reason. And i'll pretty much fight to the death in doing so.

First of all, you're right.

second of all, who said music necessarily had anything to do with emotion.

Thirdly, Sorry for the abruptness but I'm listening to the live version of KE #9 and its pretty emotional for me.  Forgive me while a dry my eyes.

Drama... actually one of my favorite Yes albums.  A fresh perspective and not so anal to think that something minus Jon Anderson is somehow the less the album.  If anything it spotlights the lesser known but highly critical component to the Yessound....  Squire and Howe's backing vocals. With the only critical component.. Squire's bass also highly prominent.. see Tempus Fugit and Does It Really Happen. Downes more modern keyboard sound was a VAST improvement over Wakeman circa Tormato. A hint of what was to come a couple of years down the road.  The root of prog..... progressing.....>.

Now you've done it.  I feel like going out and buying Drama. 

Actually, I think that Anderson really took the reigns after Fragile and maybe the drama that Squire is referring to is the intense drama I associate with Fragile, which really tends to highlihgt Mr S. Just a thought! I could be wrong.

PS I also loved 90125 and of all the Yes shows I've ever seen, it was the one I enjoyed the most. I did not miss Howe though I love him;  he left for the money$$$$

Howe left for the money and Yes moved on... Yes moved in a different direction and I loved 90125.  Damned if you do.. damned if you don't.  Some say Yes sold out yet others would have derided the group for continuing in the same vein of their 70's albums.  Can't please everyone... anyway much like Drama.. just judge the album on it's merits.. not against albums like CTTE.  Sure they don't compare to it... but what does....

Back to Drama... give it another listen with older and wiser ears hahaha. You may hear something you like that you didn't catch back in the day. Personally I think it is a GREAT album.>>>

What does it mean to sell out? Genesis and Collins wrote all those great ditties in the 1980s.  Shoudl they have kept them on the shelf. And there he was, Collins this bald guy the biggest thing since sliced bread in the age of the Hair bands. Genesis always wrote great choruses, so it was no suprise that they wrote those nicely crafted tunes in the later 1970s and 80s. "Get Em out By Friday" may just be the most ingeniously crafted song of the prog era.

micky wrote: ken4musiq wrote: Howe left for the money and Yes moved on... Yes moved in a different direction and I loved 90125.  Damned if you do.. damned if you don't.  Some say Yes sold out yet others would have derided the group for continuing in the same vein of their 70's albums.  Can't please everyone... anyway much like Drama.. just judge the album on it's merits.. not against albums like CTTE.  Sure they don't compare to it... but what does.... Back to Drama... give it another listen with older and wiser ears hahaha. You may hear something you like that you didn't catch back in the day. Personally I think it is a GREAT album.>>>   What does it mean to sell out? Genesis and Collins wrote all those great ditties in the 1980s.  Shoudl they have kept them on the shelf. And there he was, Collins this bald guy the biggest thing since sliced bread in the age of the Hair bands. Genesis always wrote great choruses, so it was no suprise that they wrote those nicely crafted tunes in the later 1970s and 80s. "Get Em out By Friday" may just be the most ingeniously crafted song of the prog era. I agree ... I've never thought much of the term ....'selling out' ... musicians evolve and progress, and if they should find commerical success... more power to them.  I sure as hell wouldn't want to see Yes spending 30 or 40 years trying to match or duplicate CttE.  They put out a classic pop/prog pop? album and deserved every penny they got for it.

I secretly agree....

Lord Qwerty wrote:   First of all, you're right. second of all, who said music necessarily had anything to do with emotion. Leo Tolstoy and Lord Qwerty agrees 100% with him. Thirdly, Sorry for the abruptness but I'm listening to the live version of KE #9 and its pretty emotional for me.  Forgive me while a dry my eyes.

Iván says that at last he agrees in something with Lord Qwerty.  And in this case also with Leon Tolstoi.

The main function of the music or of any art is to create an emotional reaction in the audience, it might be pleasure, love, hate, shock or almost anything.

Music without emotion is not music, just a technical sequence of sounds, but never a form of art.

Iván

micky wrote: couldn't agree more Ivan... question is.... is there such a thing as 'emotionless' music.  ie. Is there music out there incapable of evoking an emotional reaction.  Is that not as personal as say...taste is?

I believe that most Muzac (Elevator music) is mainly emotionless (unless disgust and urge to vomit is consider an emotion ).

This "so called orchestras" take a succesful song, add some violins, winds and a couple of mediocre electric guitar players, take all the emotion of a song and just  play some notes that transmit absolutely nothing, they take all the emotion and artistic value of the song, and the reason why the stores use this music is to avoid to distract the clients from their main function that is buying.

Last week I went to buy tennis shoes to a big chain store and they were playind a collection of ELP Muzac versions that included Still you Turn me on and Lucky Man (With a repulsive imitation of Moog solo).

I left the store inmediately taking this aberration as an insult to Prog'.

Iván

   Good thread. To me ELP are a notch below YES Genesis and Floyd possibly because as a threesome they didn't quite have the variety of the acknowledged big 3 . But in the early 70s they were certainly bigger than Genesis. I think though that BSS Tarkus and Trilogy are underrated in the top 100 and highly recommendf them to those who haven't aquired them yet.

  There is something I have always liked about The Yes Album in comparison to their later work . I think it is similar to what I like about Foxtrot compared to Genesis' later work. At this stage both bands were unknown and near extinction so they really pulled together , left their egos at the door and really produced as an ensemble. That innocence could never be recaptured once the bands became big. They may have become more professional later on but that innocent stage in a band's

career is delightful.

ivan_2068 wrote: micky wrote: couldn't agree more Ivan... question is.... is there such a thing as 'emotionless' music.  ie. Is there music out there incapable of evoking an emotional reaction.  Is that not as personal as say...taste is? I believe that most Muzac (Elevator music) is mainly emotionless (unless disgust and urge to vomit is consider an emotion ). This "so called orchestras" take a succesful song, add some violins, winds and a couple of mediocre electric guitar players, take all the emotion of a song and just  play some notes that transmit absolutely nothing, they take all the emotion and artistic value of the song, and the reason why the stores use this music is to avoid to distract the clients from their main function that is buying. Last week I went to buy tennis shoes to a big chain store and they were playind a collection of ELP Muzac versions that included Still you Turn me on and Lucky Man (With a repulsive imitation of Moog solo). I left the store inmediately taking this aberration as an insult to Prog'. Iván

In America, Muzac was used in Dentist's offices. As kids we used to call it "dentist office music."  Years later I read that dentists had the highest rate of suicide of any profession.  I wondered if there was a relation.

ivan_2068 wrote: Lord Qwerty wrote:   First of all, you're right. second of all, who said music necessarily had anything to do with emotion. Leo Tolstoy and Lord Qwerty agrees 100% with him. Thirdly, Sorry for the abruptness but I'm listening to the live version of KE #9 and its pretty emotional for me.  Forgive me while a dry my eyes. Iván says that at last he agrees in something with Lord Qwerty.  And in this case also with Leon Tolstoi. The main function of the music or of any art is to create an emotional reaction in the audience, it might be pleasure, love, hate, shock or almost anything. Music without emotion is not music, just a technical sequence of sounds, but never a form of art. Iván

Ah, but what IS emotion? Can one objectively say "this is unemotional" about someone else's taste in music?

Walri wrote: Ah, but what IS emotion? Can one objectively say "this is unemotional" about someone else's taste in music?

That's why I always say tyhat music is mostly subkjective, tastes and emotions are unique in each person.

But there are also cases in which is obvious a musician is very emotional, like Gabriel or Peter Hammill.

Iván

Duchess wrote:      Good thread. To me ELP are a notch below YES Genesis and Floyd possibly because as a threesome they didn't quite have the variety of the acknowledged big 3 . But in the early 70s they were certainly bigger than Genesis. I think though that BSS Tarkus and Trilogy are underrated in the top 100 and highly recommendf them to those who haven't aquired them yet.

Not really sure I follow that.The opposite is true in my opinion.ELP were often too 'varied' and maybe lacked a focus to their albums.But as I've said before they were often having too much fun to be like those afore mentioned bands. 

richardh wrote: [QUOTE=Duchess]      Good thread. To me ELP are a notch below YES Genesis and Floyd possibly because as a threesome they didn't quite have the variety of the acknowledged big 3 . Not really sure I follow that.The opposite is true in my opinion.ELP were often too 'varied' and maybe lacked a focus to their albums.But as I've said before they were often having too much fun to be like those afore mentioned bands.

Ian Anderson's performance as an individual is extraordinary.