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it’s because Pavlovs Dog were not British

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Topic: it’s because Pavlovs Dog were not British
Posted By: Guests
Subject: it’s because Pavlovs Dog were not British
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:30
I think Pavlov's dog must be about the most underrated prog band in the history of prog, its ashame they don`t get more attention, probably one of the better American prog bands ever in my opinion, in fact I ask myself often, would have Pavlov's dog been a lot more popular  had they been British ?   



Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:33
Or if Pavlov had used a cat?

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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:34
they should have named themselves Schroedinger's Cat instead of Pavlov's Dog

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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:34
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Or if Pavlov had used a cat?
Pavlovs Cat


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:39

Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Or if Pavlov had used a cat?
Pavlovs Cat

Well.................if Pavlov had used a cat in his experiments instead of a dog, would they have worked? And if not Pavlov wouldnt have a famous anything. So the band would have a different name.



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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:42
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Or if Pavlov had used a cat?
Pavlovs Cat

Well.................if Pavlov had used a cat in his experiments instead of a dog, would they have worked? And if not Pavlov wouldnt have a famous anything. So the band would have a different name.

hmmm ok   but what about the topic ? or is this now the topic ? 


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:45
Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Or if Pavlov had used a cat?
Pavlovs Cat

Well.................if Pavlov had used a cat in his experiments instead of a dog, would they have worked? And if not Pavlov wouldnt have a famous anything. So the band would have a different name.

hmmm ok   but what about the topic ? or is this now the topic ? 

No.......its not STRICTLY the topic, but, can a bands name change its chances of success?



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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:46
Song Dance, is no-one taking you seriously?

I don't know about the fact they were American, I think Surkamp's vocals were just a bit too much of an acquired taste for many! I liked Pampered Menial, never heard any much of their other stuff....


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:50
Originally posted by Phil Phil wrote:

Song Dance, is no-one taking you seriously?

I don't know about the fact they were American, I think Surkamp's vocals were just a bit too much of an acquired taste for many! I liked Pampered Menial, never heard any much of their other stuff....
well at last a response (though the other guys were kinda funny)  Pavlovs Cat (would never have worked but still)   and yes David Surkamp has got a different type of voice but I see that as a good thing its very emotional I think  


Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:53
Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

[ well at last a response (though the other guys were kinda funny)  Pavlovs Cat (would never have worked but still)   and yes David Surkamp has got a different type of voice but I see that as a good thing its very emotional I think  
I think they were winding you up...in a good humoured way.....


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:55
Originally posted by Phil Phil wrote:

Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

[ well at last a response (though the other guys were kinda funny)  Pavlovs Cat (would never have worked but still)   and yes David Surkamp has got a different type of voice but I see that as a good thing its very emotional I think  
I think they were winding you up...in a good humoured way.....
Testing out the new guy ... I got it 


Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 09:55

I think Pavlov's dog must be about the most underrated prog band in the history of prog, its ashame they don`t get more attention.

I agree, sadly underrated!!!

"Pampered Menial" is one of the best album of the seventies!!!



Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:16

I remember a friend playing this album for me. He said Once you hear this you will be hooked!

Needless to say I bought At the ring of a bell and Pampered. A unique band and a unique voice.Clap Didnīt Bill Bruford play drums for them?

 



Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:18

Just a second here!!!!!

OK, their Julia hit has done them not much good for their prog reputation, but take away the Mellotrons orgies away from their debut, what is left that is typically prog? Not that much!!!!

as for their second one... only two tracks are prog, the rest

I will not even touch the following albums (I only heard third once)

So if it was up to me P'sD would be in prog-related

But I love them mellotron orgies, like any other proghead following his lower instincts



-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:26
Originally posted by Dr Know Dr Know wrote:

I remember a friend playing this album for me. He said Once you hear this you will be hooked!

Needless to say I bought At the ring of a bell and Pampered. A unique band and a unique voice.Clap Didnīt Bill Bruford play drums for them?

 

Bill Bruford played drums for them on their second CD "At the sound of a bell" he only played drums on one track called "did you see him cry"  at least I think it was only one track ?  that said Brufords drumming on this track is brilliant  (worth getting the CD just for that one song as its a longer song  )


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:40
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Just a second here!!!!!

OK, their Julia hit has done them not much good for their prog reputation, but take away the Mellotrons orgies away from their debut, what is left that is typically prog? Not that much!!!!

as for their second one... only two tracks are prog, the rest

I will not even touch the following albums (I only heard third once)

So if it was up to me P'sD would be in prog-related

But I love them mellotron orgies, like any other proghead following his lower instincts

with all due respect  I can`t see how you come to this opinion but thats your right however  

Pavlov's were complex at times  you only need to listen to tunes like Preludin or did you see him cry to verify this claim, and Pavlov's pushed symphonic boundaries as well they merged beauty and bombast into the one song with clever thought provoking arrangements and insightful lyrics sung with feeling  ....  Trust me Pavlov's dog deserve to be here (and not as prog related) more than 50 % of the bands here deserve to be here, the scary thing is out of the 50% there are some pretty big named bands I question should be here ???  but  thats  not part of this discussion.    Pavlov's Dog were far from prog related they were in fact progressive rock personified, and its ashame that it was recognized by more people because I think they had huge potential



Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:48

Here are my reviews, so you get a chance to see why I state my views as such

 

 

PAVLOV'S DOG Pampered Menial
Review ( http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=63360 - Permanent link ) by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20 - Hugues Chantraine @ 5:37:37 AM EST, 1/6/2006

SPECIAL COLLABORATION

4 stars  ó  One of those very cherished debut album and certainly a real pearl in the Archives, Pavlovís debut is one of those records that almost everyone should have, be they progheads or not. Out of the blue, the US Midwest actually pulled two real surprises as in the heartland of Country Rock, and Country-western, came Kansas and this completely unexpected Pavlovís Dog. Needless to say that Surkampís incredible voice is the main asset, but it is hardly the only one. This is an album laced with loads of keyboards of every kind, but although the main feature, they never suffocate the music even if the mellotrons are mixed-in very LOUD. Donít look for long epics on this slice of vinyl, as the longest track is just above the 5 min track (actually the record is fairly short, clocking in at less than 34 min), but Surkampís histrionics on vocals coupled with lush mellotron waves, underlined by a cool violin and Hamiltonís organs, synths and pianos, provide all the necessary drama a proghead is searching for.

This is maybe one of the most accomplished songwriting effort as there is so much happening on the different songs that you could not fit one more note without overflowing the bucket - well they are 7 in PísD - and destroy the fragile beauty of this album. Most of you have heard Julia, but as you go down the rest of the album, there should at least two more tracks every proghead above 35, will have heard: Surkampís voice almost resembling Grace Slick in the Jefferson Starship (and believe me this is one hell of a compliment) in Late November, and the violin/mellotron/guitar short duel in Song Dance should ring a bell, too. But all is not perfect on the album as I find that the pure RnR number Natchez Trace has a strange but not entirely convincing mellotron overdose (except in the middle break). One of the other slight remark I have, is that the quick succession of those relatively short tracks is rather diluting the contents a bit, as I wouldíve rather they exploit some tracks/ideas to the fullest, something they only seem to achieve on Preludin/Of Once And Future Kings duo (7 min combined), but by that time, the record is almost over! Frustrating is it not?

The following album At The Sound Of The Bell is usually also very appreciated by progheads, but my opinion is that it does not come to the waist-height of this one, and if it was not for the two lengthier tracks (both just above the 5 min mark too) and Bill Brufordís guest appearance, it would not even reach ankle-height. Back to this album though, I always wondered if this album did not have loads of mellotrons, would it be so much appreciated by us progheads? Not that sure!!! But there are plenty of shivers on this album.
 
 
 
 
PAVLOV'S DOG At the Sound of the Bell
Review ( http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=43049 - Permanent link ) by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20 - Hugues Chantraine @ 3:40:56 AM EST, 8/16/2005

SPECIAL COLLABORATION
2 stars  ó  As their debut album had struck a chord in most proghead's heart (and not just the progheads, too as we can see by the sales figure) , most fans will claim this second album as good as the first one. Alas! Not true at all!

Most of the songs on here are of non-prog caliber , hovering sometimes between soft rock (Bread , America ) , country rock (Eagles) and AOR. True thay this album as well as the first are very radio-friendly , but let's face it, not much on this album is prog bar the last track on each vinyl side. Yes , Did You See Him Cry is a full-blown prog tracks with superb Mellotrons, excellent drumming (thanks Bill!) and a shining example of what these St Louis residents could do! Valkyrie pales a bit compared to that track but is still progressive albeit with that catchy hook line "Bring Back The Good Old Days", one must be careful not to link it with the rest of the album.

Because the rest of the album is simply sub-par and not progressive , although flawlessly played , these could've been on Bread albums. Really even a star-studded guest list can't help this album from sinking.......


-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Here are my reviews, so you get a chance to see why I state my views as such

 

 

PAVLOV'S DOG Pampered Menial
Review ( http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=63360 - Permanent link ) by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20 - Hugues Chantraine @ 5:37:37 AM EST, 1/6/2006

SPECIAL COLLABORATION

4 stars  ó  One of those very cherished debut album and certainly a real pearl in the Archives, Pavlovís debut is one of those records that almost everyone should have, be they progheads or not. Out of the blue, the US Midwest actually pulled two real surprises as in the heartland of Country Rock, and Country-western, came Kansas and this completely unexpected Pavlovís Dog. Needless to say that Surkampís incredible voice is the main asset, but it is hardly the only one. This is an album laced with loads of keyboards of every kind, but although the main feature, they never suffocate the music even if the mellotrons are mixed-in very LOUD. Donít look for long epics on this slice of vinyl, as the longest track is just above the 5 min track (actually the record is fairly short, clocking in at less than 34 min), but Surkampís histrionics on vocals coupled with lush mellotron waves, underlined by a cool violin and Hamiltonís organs, synths and pianos, provide all the necessary drama a proghead is searching for.

This is maybe one of the most accomplished songwriting effort as there is so much happening on the different songs that you could not fit one more note without overflowing the bucket - well they are 7 in PísD - and destroy the fragile beauty of this album. Most of you have heard Julia, but as you go down the rest of the album, there should at least two more tracks every proghead above 35, will have heard: Surkampís voice almost resembling Grace Slick in the Jefferson Starship (and believe me this is one hell of a compliment) in Late November, and the violin/mellotron/guitar short duel in Song Dance should ring a bell, too. But all is not perfect on the album as I find that the pure RnR number Natchez Trace has a strange but not entirely convincing mellotron overdose (except in the middle break). One of the other slight remark I have, is that the quick succession of those relatively short tracks is rather diluting the contents a bit, as I wouldíve rather they exploit some tracks/ideas to the fullest, something they only seem to achieve on Preludin/Of Once And Future Kings duo (7 min combined), but by that time, the record is almost over! Frustrating is it not?

The following album At The Sound Of The Bell is usually also very appreciated by progheads, but my opinion is that it does not come to the waist-height of this one, and if it was not for the two lengthier tracks (both just above the 5 min mark too) and Bill Brufordís guest appearance, it would not even reach ankle-height. Back to this album though, I always wondered if this album did not have loads of mellotrons, would it be so much appreciated by us progheads? Not that sure!!! But there are plenty of shivers on this album.
 
 
 
 
PAVLOV'S DOG At the Sound of the Bell
Review ( http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=43049 - Permanent link ) by http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=20 - Hugues Chantraine @ 3:40:56 AM EST, 8/16/2005

SPECIAL COLLABORATION
2 stars  ó  As their debut album had struck a chord in most proghead's heart (and not just the progheads, too as we can see by the sales figure) , most fans will claim this second album as good as the first one. Alas! Not true at all!

Most of the songs on here are of non-prog caliber , hovering sometimes between soft rock (Bread , America ) , country rock (Eagles) and AOR. True thay this album as well as the first are very radio-friendly , but let's face it, not much on this album is prog bar the last track on each vinyl side. Yes , Did You See Him Cry is a full-blown prog tracks with superb Mellotrons, excellent drumming (thanks Bill!) and a shining example of what these St Louis residents could do! Valkyrie pales a bit compared to that track but is still progressive albeit with that catchy hook line "Bring Back The Good Old Days", one must be careful not to link it with the rest of the album.

Because the rest of the album is simply sub-par and not progressive , although flawlessly played , these could've been on Bread albums. Really even a star-studded guest list can't help this album from sinking.......

You gave the first one 4 stars and that means very good .. I agree with your review as well I`d give it 4 stars also

You gave the second CD 2 stars and I`ll admit the second lacked something the song "did you see him cry" is the bulk of the substance here ..   I`d give this CD 3 stars as there are bits and pieces I like

I agree with everything you have said  all but  that prog related remark  



Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 11:01
Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

I agree with everything you have said  all but  that prog related remark  

OK!! I take that back

Welcome on site



-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 11:02
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Song Dance Song Dance wrote:

I agree with everything you have said  all but  that prog related remark  

OK!! I take that back

Welcome on site



Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 11:51
Song Dance thanks for the thoughtful thread and welcome to pa. Lately we have had a rash of new posters who start negative threads. Back to the topic, I need to dig out the old stuff and give it a spin.


Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 11:54

I would agree with Song Dance till some extent.

Pavlov's Dog is a very good band, and voice of Surkamp is absolutely unique, but not for everyone's taste. I personally like it very much. It reminds me in moments about greatest female vocaliste of all times Ms. Edith Gaston (Piaf).

Yes, this band is underrated, but I don't think it would help if they were British...



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carefulwiththataxe


Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 14:42

Cool, a civilized thread...  I was even thinking in purchasing at least the 1st album, but the reference to Piaf's voice froze me.

In fact, I like Edith Piaf but her voice is totally dated and extremely feminine, however I'm fed up to hear it from a male singer, since we have some of these singers here in Brazil and they annoy me a lot.



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Guigo

~~~~~~


Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 14:54

I will check them out as well.  Seem to have flown under my radar all these years.

  I just went back and found Touch for some great early (1969) American prog.



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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 15:13
Surkamp`s voice was definitely a handicap. Whever Ithrow either balbum on the turntable I try and block out his vocals. I don`t  know if anyone out there would agree with me but Bruford doesn`t even sound like Bruford on the one track he plays on.

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               †


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 03 2006 at 15:33

I consider myself a Pavlov's Dog fan, I even wrote the Biography of them for PA (Something I would have never done if I didn't liked their music) and rated very high Pampered Menial (4 stars), but there are some questions to answer:

  • Are they underrated?: Surely, they are almost unknown or hated because of the simplicity of their music (something I like very much in their specific case) and mainly because of David Surkamp's voice.
  • Why are they underrated?: Because they were born 6 or 7 years too early, they played something that could be qualified as Art Rock or Neo Prog in 1974 when Prog bands were doing their most complex stuff. While Yes was creating Gates of Delirium, Genesis songs like In the Cage or ELP Karn Evil 9, Pavlov's Dog was playing Julia, Late November or Song Dance that were too simple for 1974. In the 80's or 90's they would have been a success.
  • Are they Good?: Yes they are
  • Are they great: No way, most of their more famous songs like Julia and Late November are nothing but poppy ballads, but of course they have excellent tracks as Preludin.
  • What's their most important feature?: David Surkamp's voice, his range is simply horrendous, like a mixture between Geddy Lee and the Chipmunks, but the guy knows how to work with it. He used the same technique than Edith Piaff to make his voice tremble at the end of the phrases (Something used by French Chansoniers) creating an incredible effect.
  • Is their nationality a problem?: No way, in the late 70's bands as STYX (AOR) and Kansas (100% Prog) were at their peak and both are from USA.

If it wasn't for David's voice (Something a lot of people hate), they would have only been a "C" class band with nothing really special, and probably felt into AOR.

 

 

Sadly I'm a fan, but I try not to be blinded by my taste (It's easier to be subjective and like something withoout questions or analyze, but that's not my case).

IvŠn

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