A couple of years ago, when I was not into prog, I enjoyed the mood and catchy feeling of an unmistakingly sound of a man's voice: Phil Collins. Ok, he was doing pop, I don't like pop, but hell, his voice still sounds good. I did not matter and continued living.

Then, years later, as I explored into the vast and mysterious lands of progressive music, somehow I noticed a name in a respected and legendary prog band named Genesis: a name of a drummer, Phil Collins. Wait a minute. Do you mean the SAME Phil Collins? The one that sings pop music? How can this be? This is awesome! Then, the same voice I like is in a sound I like. Nice!

But later, as I entered this site months ago, I realised almost every one in the forum hated a man in the name of prog: Phil Collins. Why? Why, I thought. Because he shifted styles? He destroyed the band? He lost his hair? Why?

Present Day: I still don't know why everyone in the prog scene hates this poor man. Of course, once I heard Gabriel's voice I realised Collin's one was not as original as I thought, but still...does he deserves dying? Is this hate unavoidable? I just wondered if you guys could share your feelings towards this judas guy, or so I imagine, so I can understand a little bit about this situation.

Phil Collins is an astounding drummer and should be respected for that alone.

Because he shifted styles? He destroyed the band? He lost his hair? Why?...   ... that was funny

The reason why is probably because Phil is out spoken and has made many negative remarks about prog that the prog world wasn`t so thrilled about, we acknowledge Phil is a gifted drummer and has a decent singing voice but he needed to learn to shut his trap.

Man With Hat wrote: Phil Collins is an astounding drummer and should be respected for that alone.

Agreed.

I don't know about Phil Collins....but I hear Robert Fripp is a real jerk. Not busting the guy, I actually have a lot of respect for him, I'm just saying what I heard.  

Can anyone confirm this?

Oh and back to Phil Collins, yea I don't know his personality but he's a pretty awesome drummer, so I can respect him for that, even if he's bald.

I think that he has a very long time playing music. He has lived almost all of his life working in music, so, maybe when he looks back to some things that he did in his youth, maybe he doesn`t like them anymore. He played Progressive Rock for many years. He needed a change. Maybe he was tired of singing "I Know What I Like" tour after tour. Persons grow and change. The same is for many musicians.

The film "Buster" has some good things, but other things are not funny.

It was the same thing for me when i satarted lisen to prog and heard about Genesis, Phil collins: drums? that phil collins who sings pop? in a prog band? Then i got this idea that Genesis was some pop/prog band and i refused to give em a shans i started to lisen to pink floyd and yes then king crimson but Genesis never! no pop/prog or prog light for me, so i dident start lisen to them before i came here and saw how high regarded they where here. Still dont think theyer the greates prog band but no doubt a fantastic band, and much beter then i ever tought they whuld be.

And no i dont hate him at all, he seems to be a very nice guy.

Slayer! wrote: I don't know about Phil Collins....but I hear Robert Fripp is a real jerk. Not busting the guy, I actually have a lot of respect for him, I'm just saying what I heard.

I've heard the same thing about all the members of Rush.  And Pink Floyd too, for that matter.

I have no problem with Phil Collins (or, for that matter, with 99.99% of people whom I've never met, and of whom I've never heard any true evil).

I admire his talent, quite like his voice, love his drumming in Genesis and Brand X, respect his work with Disney, support his right to make the best living he can for himself and his family, and fully understand his decision to do the kind of music that he likes best -- not just what pleases old-time Genesis fans. Unlike many here, I even think "More Fool Me" is a very nice song (I think many who profess to hate it came to Genesis late in the game, with progsnob anti-Phil prejudice already in place).

Unless you know the man personally, and have walked a mile or two in his shoes, you've no right to judge his integrity, morality or personality.

Most post-Gabriel Genesis is pop? Fine -- I like some pop, and Genesis pop tends to be pretty good pop. I prefer the old Genesis discs, and can play them whenever I want, but I listen to lots of kinds of music.

As the front man for the three-man Genesis, he garners the lion's share of progsnob abuse, but give Banks and Rutherford some credit for being thinking adults with their own free will, folks. If Banks was the singer, I'm sure many would have it in for him, instead.

It's just entertainment, not philosophy or politics.

Things change, as do we -- c'est la vie.

JusLisn wrote: I think many are too rough on him. At the time that Genesis swayed toward pop-rock, it was better (proggier) than anything else being played on the radio (remember, no internet). Maybe we should give Genesis credit for keeping progressive-rock alive and not completely dissapearing from the music scene.

Sorry to disagree, but IMHO he did nothing remotely Progressive with genesis (low case is not a mistake in this case), he didn't helped to keep Prog alive.

That honor is for Neo Prog who  kept Progressive Rock alive despite being underrated, simpler bands not accepted by mainstream listeners and seen as second class by progheads. But hey did good Prog Rock, simpler than Symphonic, but some very good.

This were the guys that kept Prog Alive, because a bald guy who sings crappy ballads is doing nothing to save the genre only to fill (rhymeds with Phil) his pockets.

But that's not the only problem, when he saw Prog was not profitable he helped to throw trash to Prog, his interviews were really incredible.

• I rather listen Punk than a Pink Flloyd or Yes album.
• I never understood The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
• I would never let Peter rejoin Genesis (Genesis a History)
• If we were ever remotely popular is when Peter left.
• Yes genesis music is boring, but boring is good also....he, he.

But 15 years after, when only Prog fans care for Genesis, he changes his argument for:

• My all time favorite album is The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.
• I would only rejoin Genesis (Now with high case) if Peter sings.
• Yes was always my favorite band.

He's a wonderful drummer (A top 10 IMHO), a very good backing vocalist and a decent singer, but a lousy songwritter that spoke in the most contradictory way possible.

So sorry for Phil, but he got what he deserved.

Iván

progaeopteryx wrote: I don't buy the argument that Collins was the driving force in moving Genesis towards pop music. If you listen to Banks and Rutherford's solo projects (Remember Mike and the Mechanics?), it seems clear to me that all three of them were more interested in moving Genesis in that direction. Another driving force was probably the record companies wanting hit singles. This ruined many a prog band.

Yes, I agree. The first "hated by many Genesis`Fans" ballad released as a single that he sung with Genesis without Gabriel, was "Your Own Special Way, composed by Rutherford. As Collins`himself explains in the "Genesis-A History" video, the song "Invisible Touch", another hated Pop song hit single, was started with a guitar riff done by Rutherford. "Follow You, Follow Me" has music by Rutherford, Banks and Collins, and lyrics by Rutherford.

Many Prog bands changed their style to Pop: ELPowell, King Crimson ("Heartbeat"), Kansas, YES, Banco, PFM....

If Genesis reformed tomorrow with Collins on lead vocal I would move heaven and earth to get a ticket for one of their gigs.Doesn't change the fact that he's a complete 'plonker' though.I agree with Ivan's comments totally.

Whats so bad about Phil Collins?  You can't blame him alone for the direction Genesis took- if the other members didn't want to go that direction why didn't they stop him?  Anyway Peter Gabriel's early solo albums are just as poppy as Phil Collins' and later Genesis (although Gabriel hasn't sunk to the level of Disney soundtracks yet).  Heck, I just heard Salisbury Hill (sp?) on some commercial today.  I swear to God he wrote that track just cause he knew film previews would be using it for generations to come.  My point is that Gabriel wasn't the prog element of Genesis, and Collins can't be blamed for ruining it.

Anyway I don't think anyone hates him.  Its not a bands job to please their fans.  The relationship between musicians and their fans is mutual.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I like his drumming and his vocals. I do hate the fact that he changed his fabulous drum sound, on the last Genesis albums on which he played, into something very un-adventurous.

I do like some of the songs he wrote and co-wrote, especially with Genesis (e.g. Down And Out, Behind The Lines, Please Don't Ask).

Nevertheless I do think his influence on later Genesis is not good, musically. And he may be outspoken (which is good in itself) but the things he said in the press about Genesis and other bands were often very irritating.

I think he contributed a lot to prog in the seventies and even the early eighties, and even after that I liked his voice and some of his drum parts, but I wish he had more respect for the progressive aspects of the musical heritage of Genesis.

Peter Rideout wrote: I have no problem with Phil Collins (or, for that matter, with 99.99% of people whom I've never met, and of whom I've never heard any true evil). I admire his talent, quite like his voice, love his drumming in Genesis and Brand X, respect his work with Disney, support his right to make the best living he can for himself and his family, and fully understand his decision to do the kind of music that he likes best -- not just what pleases old-time Genesis fans. Unlike many here, I even think "More Fool Me" is a very nice song (I think many who profess to hate it came to Genesis late in the game, with progsnob anti-Phil prejudice already in place). Unless you know the man personally, and have walked a mile or two in his shoes, you've no right to judge his integrity, morality or personality. Most post-Gabriel Genesis is pop? Fine -- I like some pop, and Genesis pop tends to be pretty good pop. I prefer the old Genesis discs, and can play them whenever I want, but I listen to lots of kinds of music. As the front man for the three-man Genesis, he garners the lion's share of progsnob abuse, but give Banks and Rutherford some credit for being thinking adults with their own free will, folks. If Banks was the singer, I'm sure many would have it in for him, instead. It's just entertainment, not philosophy or politics.   Things change, as do we -- c'est la vie.

Great signature!

BTW: I don't hate Phil Collins. His solo career bores me, so I don't buy his CDs and therefore we don't talk to each other and that's all.

I think one of the reasons that Phil Collins gets the blame for the later direction of Genesis is because for a hwile Phil Collins solo stuff and the genesis output became kind of interchangeable, but in truth the band were all happy to move in that direction.

Virtually all prog bands moved away from pure Prog in the early 80's. many simply ceased operations or took an extended break, much of the Yes output in this period was arguably 'pop'.

I don't think we should blame any one person for this. Post-punk there was an anti-prog anti-concept album backlash (How many copies would Tales From Topographic Oceans or Foxtrot have sold in 1981?) that lasted until bands like Marillion came onthe scene. 

I saw Genesis several times in the early 80's and they were still a great band. Life loves on and people move on. Genesis made some of the greatest-ever prog records, Phil Collins was a part of that, butwe shouldn't crucify the bloke because they didn't produce more of the same kind of records for the next 20/30  years, and I suspect many people would have lost interest by now if they had.

Simon

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Whats so bad about Phil Collins?  You can't blame him alone for the direction Genesis took- if the other members didn't want to go that direction why didn't they stop him?  Well he was co-responsible, but lets be honest, Shapes, Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance sound almost as Phil Collins solo stuff, not as Rutherford or Banks solo stuff, so he gets the biggest share.  Anyway Peter Gabriel's early solo albums are just as poppy as Phil Collins' and later Genesis (although Gabriel hasn't sunk to the level of Disney soundtracks yet).  Heck, I just heard Salisbury Hill (sp?) on some commercial today.  I swear to God he wrote that track just cause he knew film previews would be using it for generations to come.  Do you know what is the meaning of Solsbury Hills???? It's the explanation of why he left Genesis, PGI, II and III are absolutely Prog. While Genesis was selling out, Peter lost his last penny in a non profitable but artistic project called WOMAD, so he had to release a couple of simpler tracks in 2 albums (PG IV and SO), but even then the videos were so advanced that it was a prove he never stopped experimenting. My point is that Gabriel wasn't the prog element of Genesis, and Collins can't be blamed for ruining it. Gabriel was the lyricist, frontman and leader of the band, his word was law, when he was at the band everything was clear, so he was the element of everything in Genesis. Anyway I don't think anyone hates him.  Its not a bands job to please their fans.  The relationship between musicians and their fans is mutual.  If you don't like it, don't buy it. Yes, it's the band's job to please the fans. My job is to please my clients because they pay y bills, fans pay their rich and famous life style. There's something called gratitude and loyalty. This stupid fans were the guys who bought Genesis albums when they didn't have enough to pay the bills, the ones that followed them everywhere when the rest of the world hated them. This are the same fans that recieved a loud "I don't care what you want" from Phil when genesis (with low case) got a new fanbase and the same ones that heard from Phil Collins that Prog was crap that fell from the trees like rotten apples when Punk came. And now he's licking some arses because  POP fanbase vanished when they stopped being cool and he became a Disney joke. If they want to change it's ok, but it's not fair tp speak as Collins did about the genre that not only feed him, but that made him a famous musician, before Genesis the most memorable thing he made was Calamity the Cow, and without Genesis he would never been famous. At least Steve Hackett, despite his successful solo career made a tribute to the band that made him famous, despite the fact that he was the only member not invited to the Milton Keynes reunion, he was so humble hat he accepted to play the encores for Peter and for his fans. That's loyalty. Iván

It is the bands job to please their fans?  No, no, no.  Once you pay for the cd, the deal is done, you gave the artist your money for their record.  Thats all their is to it... that seals the deal, the band does not owe you anything in addition like more albums that will appeal to your particular taste.

You are essentially saying that when you buy an album, you suddenly own those band members, and you should get to control what they do and their artistic direction.  So when one of your clients pays you for your service, should they get to decide what job positions you have, what services you provide, what you do with your own future?

If fans are disappointed with their direction then why continue to be loyal?  When bands I like release albums I dont like, I dont buy them, and I don't waste my time whining that they didn't record an album just to cater to what I like.  Sorry, but its not Phil Collins or anyone elses job to record albums for any particular group of people, they just record what they want to record.

As good as PG1, 2, 3 are, you've got to admit it is poppy... and not nearly as progressive as his Genesis work.  Its not like he left and outdid what he was already doing.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: JusLisn wrote: I think many are too rough on him. At the time that Genesis swayed toward pop-rock, it was better (proggier) than anything else being played on the radio (remember, no internet). Maybe we should give Genesis credit for keeping progressive-rock alive and not completely dissapearing from the music scene. Sorry to disagree, but IMHO he did nothing remotely Progressive with genesis (low case is not a mistake in this case), he didn't helped to keep Prog alive. That honor is for Neo Prog who  kept Progressive Rock alive despite being underrated, simpler bands not accepted by mainstream listeners and seen as second class by progheads. But hey did good Prog Rock, simpler than Symphonic, but some very good. This were the guys that kept Prog Alive, because a bald guy who sings crappy ballads is doing nothing to save the genre only to fill (rhymeds with Phil) his pockets. But that's not the only problem, when he saw Prog was not profitable he helped to throw trash to Prog, his interviews were really incredible. I rather listen Punk than a Pink Flloyd or Yes album. I never understood The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway I would never let Peter rejoin Genesis (Genesis a History) If we were ever remotely popular is when Peter left. Yes genesis music is boring, but boring is good also....he, he. But 15 years after, when only Prog fans care for Genesis, he changes his argument for: My all time favorite album is The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I would only rejoin Genesis (Now with high case) if Peter sings. Yes was always my favorite band. He's a wonderful drummer (A top 10 IMHO), a very good backing vocalist and a decent singer, but a lousy songwritter that spoke in the most contradictory way possible. So sorry for Phil, but he got what he deserved. Iván

Mmmm lunch was nice!

 i love onion soup....

He's short, he's bald, he looks like Bon Hoskins, he never refills the photocopier when it runs out of paper, his acting in Miami Vice sucked even more than Buster, he looks like Mel Smith, he supports Chelsea (allegedly), he looks like the Mitchell brothers off Eastenders, he's bald, he borrows garden tools and never gives them back, he looks like Jimmy Somerville, his 4wd takes up 2 parking spaces in Sainsbury's car park, his solo career was inexcusable, he's short, he's bald and he looks like Clive James.

On the plus side, a superb drummer!

Drumming skills ??  I thought we were discussing the Guitarist from Def Leppard-- PHIL COLLEN.  

Coincidentally, HE was once quoted as saying:
"Up until the Sex Pistols, all the bands were kinda just getting boring...
Even the other Rock Bands didn't want to hear 15-minute songs like Genesis and Led Zeppelin were doing anymore."

Phil Collins is a drummer and that is where he should stay! He cannot wirte songs! Look at what happened when he took over writing and sing duties for Genesis! They BOMBED big time! and got sh*t!

Ahh but whta about 'something in the air tonight' or the Tarzan sound track they were good? erm yes I must admit they were but sorry to burst your bubble he had HELP writing those so technically they don't count.

This is the man who told us about the homeless! *talking in a spazzy voice* Because we didnt know about them before that!

He and Chris de Burgh are eveil, horrible, whineny little gits!

Phil mate get to the back of the room behind the kit, in the dark where you belong because that is all your good at mate, stop thinking your something your not or something bigger than you are! 

Phil Collins is a pussy

PROGMAN wrote: Even in "The Platinum Collection" album Phil Collins says "People blame me for f**king up Genesis, I didn't we did" so he claims he didn't do it alone.

Correct! Remember, Mike Rutherford is a very "poppy" man too! And Tony Banks became very poppy too on Invisible Touch, etc.

I like Phil, though. His drumming with Genesis and Brand X is awesome! And he seems like a nice little man overall!

"You'll be inside of me, deep inside of me....."

(had to be said)

ElwoodHerring wrote: Guillermo wrote: I think that he has a very long time playing music. He has lived almost all of his life working in music, so, maybe when he looks back to some things that he did in his youth, maybe he doesn`t like them anymore. He played Progressive Rock for many years. He needed a change. Maybe he was tired of singing "I Know What I Like" tour after tour. Persons grow and change. The same is for many musicians. The film "Buster" has some good things, but other things are not funny. Fair enough - he wanted to move on and do something different. I have no problem with that. It's when he then turns about face and calls his earlier prog work "crap" that instantly annoys the fans. If it was all entirely his work then perhaps he could justify the remark, but it wasn't. It was (let's be honest) mostly Peter Gabriel's work that he was rubbishing, and that's simply not on. Phil Collins may be a fine performer but he can't hold a candle to Gabriel, not then, not now, not ever.

I remember Peter Gabriel saying in interviews that  rejoining Genesis could be for him like "going to school again" or something like that. He also grew and changed. He maybe is very critical about his past work, like Collins. I think that Collins wants a reunion of the Genesis quintet with Hackett and Gabriel more than Gabriel, because his voice has changed a lot and maybe he couldn`t reach higher notes as 20 years ago, so he only wants to play the drums. Gabriel is not interested in the idea, maybe because the music he composed and recorded with Genesis is not as interesting as his music today for him, or maybe, like Collins, his voice also changed and he couldn`t reach higher notes as in the seventies. Even in the "Six of the Best" concert in 1982 with Genesis, he couldn`t reach some of those high notes.

I can`t understand why many people despise Phil Collins.  I never have seen too much despise for other musicians, including Michael Jackson, Madonna, Sting, etc.

Some people doesn`t know that even John Lennon didn`t like very much some albums he recorded with The Beatles. For example, he didn`t like the "Abbey Road" album, and he once described the "Sgt. Pepper" album as "crap"*. He never was totally happy even with his solo albums. What`s wrong with that? If Collins was bored of playing Progressive Rock, what`s wrong with that?

BUT, I think that Collins`lowest point is to compose music for Disney`s films. I agree with the people who criticizes his work for these films. I despise Disney`s ideology, which is always there in their films.

* If someone is interested, those commentaries are available in "The Beatles:Recording Sessions" book, written by Mark Lewisohn, Harmony Books, 1988.

He is a very good singer, and even better drummer. I don't hate him but I guess I have few regrets against him... The problem is that he prophanated the name of one of the most legendary bands from prog rock history.

He had the right to sing, after all he needed money.... but why he used the same name "Genesis" for his band. Wasn't his solo carreer enough???    

I cannot understand and honestly that makes me angry and it is so difficult to tolerate.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Guillermo wrote: I remember Peter Gabriel saying in interviews that  rejoining Genesis could be for him like "going to school again" or something like that. He also grew and changed. He maybe is very critical about his past work, like Collins. Yes Guillermo, but the problem is the constant contradictions depending in what's more profitable at a determined moment: I rather listen Punk than Yes or Pink Floyd albums....... Yes was always my favourite band? I Never undersstood The Lamb.......The Lamb is the best album ever written I will never let Peter rejoin Genesis....I will only rejoin Genesis if Peter sings. Thanks God that punk came and shake the tree, the Prog bands fell like rotten apples....I want to rejoin the Classic Progressive Genesis lineup????  I think that Collins wants a reunion of the Genesis quintet with Hackett and Gabriel more than Gabriel, because his voice has changed a lot and maybe he couldn`t reach higher notes as 20 years ago, so he only wants to play the drums. I believe that the problem is that he's afraid of the reaction of the fans, if the show is full of Progheads, he will not be well recieved, and if the hall is full of POP fans they will shout for Collins to replace Peter, in any of both cases, he wins with Peter singing. BTW: His voice is not the problem, I believe it's his audition. Gabriel is not interested in the idea, maybe because the music he composed and recorded with Genesis is not as interesting as his music today for him, or maybe, like Collins, his voice also changed and he couldn`t reach higher notes as in the seventies. Peter is a better singer today than in the 70's, he was never able to reach high tones, that's why he used his falsetto. The problem is that Peter keeps evolving and doesn't want to loose everything, he has a big work with the Workl Cup and new projects. Phil hasn't made anything remotely decent for many years.  Even in the "Six of the Best" concert in 1982 with Genesis, he couldn`t reach some of those high notes. According to Mike, everybody sucked that night, they almost didn't rehearsed and Steve joined for the encores without any rehearsal. Peter was just reaching his peak at Milton Keynes, he was only 32 years old!!!!!!!! At that age you don't loose voice, you get better. I can`t understand why many people despise Phil Collins.  I never have seen too much despise for other musicians, including Michael Jackson, Madonna, Sting, etc. Because Wacko Jacko, Madonna and Sting neverplayed in a Prog band and nobody cares about them here. Outside the Forum, Sting is respected (Inside also) he's a correct man and a good artist, Madonna is fashion once each 3 or 4 years, the mutant is considered a freak everywhere. Some people doesn`t know that even John Lennon didn`t like very much some albums he recorded with The Beatles. For example, he didn`t like the "Abbey Road" album, and he once described the "Sgt. Pepper" album as "crap"*. He never was totally happy even with his solo albums. What`s wrong with that? If Collins was bored of playing Progressive Rock, what`s wrong with that? After The Beatles, John never talked, he only moved his lips and Yoko spoke through him. Plus John was tottally dissapointed with The Beatles and the path Paul took. BUT, I think that Collins`lowest point is to compose music for Disney`s films. I agree with the people who criticizes his work for these films. I despise Disney`s ideology, which is always there in their films. Drumming with N'Sync wasn't precisely a high point  But I agree Disney represents the lowest point ofhis career * If someone is interested, those commentaries are available in "The Beatles:Recording Sessions" book, written by Mark Lewisohn, Harmony Books, 1988. I'm short of bucks now Iván

I think that musicians change their opinions about music many times. Their mood when they were interviewed also influences their answers. Anyway, their most recent opinion is the most important, and Collins is more inclined to a reunion than Gabriel. Even Hackett wants a reunion. I don`t know what Banks and Rutherford think about it now.

About money: music is their job. I can`t see anything wrong if they think about money. Collins is one of the richest men in England, so I think that he doesn`t need more money.

BTW: His voice is not the problem, I believe it's his audition. Yes, you`re right. I thought about it too. But his voice is another reason.

About voice / vocals: I think that some singers are very lucky to improve their singing with age. In the case of Collins and Gabriel, I don`t think so. In his last tour with Genesis, the band had to play some songs in a low tone to help Collins to sing (for example, "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight"). Gabriel`s voice has become more lower. Even Sting`s voice has changed a lot.

Lennon: I don`t agree with the idea that he was totally manipulated by Yoko. The interview in which he said "crap" to "Sgt. Pepper" was done in December 1970 for the Rolling Stone magazine. In Lewisohn`s book, George Martin says that he was very hurt by these commentaries, and that in 1974 he talked with John about these commentaries, and John said "George, forget those commentaries, I was out of my mind then". 1970 was the year when The Beatles split. In December 31, 1970, Paul sued the other 3 Beatles, and in January 1971 a trial was started. So, John was angry in 1970 against Paul, mainly, because Paul left the band in April 1970, using the split to promote his "McCartney" album, which also was released in April.

About a Genesis reunion with or without Gabriel: times have changed. Even in 1997-98, their last album with Ray Wilson wasn`t successful in the U.S., so they canceled their U..S. tour and Wilson was fired in 2000. Banks and Rutherford knew that times changed and they were afraid to record another album, even when Collins returned briefly for a party show for Tony Smith, thier manager, who won an award in September 2000. Collins wanted to officially return to Genesis, but the other two were afraid that their success was in the past, and that new albums, even with Collins, couldn`t be successful again. So, they retired from Genesis. Even Collins`success is not the same as a solo artist like in the 80s. Then, 3-4 years ago Collins had his audition problems, and I think that he has not recovered totally yet. Maybe a reunion with Gabriel and Hackett couldn`t be successful, but who knows?

Again, I can`t see why a former Progressive musician is very despised and criticized for composing and playing Pop music later in his career. Prog Rock is not a "Religion" to me. There is good and bad music in every genre. I prefer to be flexible (to a certain  point, for example, towards Disney Music )  to listen to good music from any genre. I don`t see Collins as a "traitor to Prog Rock Music". My views also changed: in the early 80s, anything that wasn`t Prog Rock wasn`t good music. But  I changed my mind with the passing of time.

Anyway, I respect your opinions.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: int_2375 wrote: Who said anything about paying for it without listening to it?  People that do that are the exact ones I blame for supporting artists even where their career turns to crap. Maybe you are younger and you've been always in capacity of listening an album after listening some music before buying the album, but the older here don't, I bought ATTW3 the first morning it saw the light, before even listening it, it was impossible on those days, and honestly I felt robbed. No sh*t?  And without the artists, the fans wouldn't get that music... so by your logic the fans must owe something to the artists for the albums they made? I believe we owe some of them gratitude for the great music they gave us, and what's wrong about that? Sorry but the fans got what they payed for, albums.  The artists got what they sold those albums for, money.  The fans pay their rich and famous lifestyle because they want the music, not for the ability to force the band to respect them.  Sorry, you don't become a share holder of the band when you purchase an album. Nothing is that simple we aleways expect something more from them, in some cases they are considered enough to  thank the fans for their support, in other cases little drummers who became singers insult the fans for asking older music. No,. we're not shareholders, as you should imagine I know legal issues  probably much more than you, but I feel that there's a mutual relation between the real artist and his fans, a mutual respect, but it's obvious some artists don't care for that. I wasn't defending any public statements he made, only his and the bands right to record whatever they want, progressive or not. At least we agree with that, and I have the right to say that music is crap and blame Phil Collins for that. See, again, I was not defending anything other than his right to record what he wants.  If people want to insult him based on his public statements then go right ahead.  I can't see how he can possibly be so short on money that he needs to kiss ass to get it. Well, he's kissing a$$es, he has changed from a guy who thaked Punk for destrying Prog (He believed Prog was dead) to a guy who claims he always was a proghead, ewho loved Yes over his mother and that The Lamb is the best allbum ever recording. I'm sure he doesn't need more money, as he didn't need it when he signed for Disney. but he wants more, now the POP cow is dry, so he's trying to obtain some extra milk from the Prog' cow, but fans are not so stupid and remember all the aberrations he said, he will end selling DVD's of Calamity the Cow if he knew people was going to buy this. Well thats your problem if you find the music you like insulting to listen to because of public statements.  For me, if I liked the album, I'd buy it and think of it as paying for music I like. I never said that, I believe you have a problem reading, i bought ITCOTCK even when I believe Robert Fripp is a jerk, i buy the albums that I like, but I give my respect to those who deserve it. I didn't stopped buying Genesis albums because Phil has no hair or his statements, I stopped buying them because I believe that after W&W but more clearly after Duke all are crap, that's my honest point of view. You must not have the same idea of selling out as I do.  I have heard Solsbury in a horrendous amount of movie previews and commercials and what not, and to me, to let your music be perverted by that association is selling Just a couple of things, Peter Gabriel didn't recorded Solsbury Hills as a soudtrack, it was an explanation why he left Genesis, of coutrse it is being used in movies and commercials, and what's the problem, if you add good music to a commercial movie it's better, abd even better if you get some extra bucks. But Solsbury Hills was not written for that purpose- There's King Cimson and Yes music in commercial movies, we could listen Karn Evil 9 in Friends, Tubular Bells was played in The Exorcist, Vangelis made music for Blade Runner, OSIBISAmade the music for Superfly TNT and this doesn't take any value from this  music. To sell out is to abandon art and make third class music only for the money, and I believe that's what the three guys with Phil Collins in the head of the table did. Iván

So you're a lawyer?  I wouldn't hire you.  "Gentleman of the jury, my clients demand respect from Phil Collins!"

int_2375:  hope for your case that the jury are not members of this Forum, because probably wiill condemn Phil to:

Iván

wow!!

Gigi wrote: oh no, not another Phil Collins thread!!!!

SORRY!!I looked for other threads about this topic in search of an answer but only found a drum talk about him! I'm really sorry! You can close it if you wish i've already seen the whole point. It was his attittude not his musical talent or style choice or the hair or whatever(is being bald that bad?)

Thanks for sharing thy thoughts! It seems there are also some that respect the man. I still respect him, sometimes money can transform your person into a very dark creature, at least I cannot blame him

russellk wrote: OK. I'm setting up Russell's Counselling Service for Hurt and Abused Proggers. I'll charge exorbitant fees (while wiping froth from quivering mouths) while gently explaining that it's contradictory to want artists to follow their own muse but at the same time always deliver the musical direction the fans want. I'll have a big poster of Phil on the wall, and will require all my clients to kiss his chubby face while chanting the names of all his top 10 hits. Lads, get over it. Phil Collins is not the reason you've grown old. His musical 'change of direction' did not inevitably lead the the depression and bitterness you feel. You identify with early Genesis because that's when you were young and, to be blunt, doing it. Now you're old and incontinent it's tempting to hold one man responsible. But here's a tip: things change. Phil went and did what he wanted. You'll never forgive him for it, will you.

Well, I will search for another therapist , your theory is flawed.

I discovered Genesis in 1978, when I was 13 (My 14 birthday was August 2 1978 and the album was released before), of course I listened first ATOTT and SEBTP, but found repulsive the 3 men Genesis, I wasn't old, by the contrary, I was almost a child.

When Invisiible Touch was released I was 21, and already made me vomit (Sorry for the fans but this is my honest feeling). I was still in my twenties (26 or 27) when the last Phil Collins Genesis album was released, so I was far from being old and bitter.

So I wasn't old, I was a young student and already hated Phil Collins Genesis and Phil Collins solo.

He did what he want, but I dislike what I want also.

Iván

Hibou wrote: Ah, c'mon, how can you hate the guy after reading this - he brought down communism practically all by himself, lol : http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/01-04/13.shtml - http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/01-04/13.shtml

ROFLMAO simply hilarious.

Who is this guy? Simon Phillips with a pseudonym?

Some highlights:

it wasn't until Peter Gabriel left the band, and Collins stepped up to replace him as frontman, that Genesis achieved true genius. 1978 brought us the band's magnum opus, And Then There Were Three,

Wow, Gabriel era Genesis must be crap, because if songs like Follow You Follow Me are the example of real genius, well, something less important should be almost sh!t. 

ATTW3 Magnum Opus?? This album is considered a watered version of Prog Genesis by the die hard Progfans and still not quite accepted by POP fans. Probably the most mediocre and anodyn album.

"The spooky keyboard drone, the pulsing, programmed percussion. And that, 'Well, I rememba!' part with the vocoder... only Phil, man. Only Phil."

Funny,this guy is praisng¨Phil Collins for what Tony did (Unless Phil played keyboards) and a machine playing drums? But something is true and a sad tuth...Only Phil man, only Phil 

Pitchfork celebrates his legacy, and cherishes his godly contributions. Phil Collins, this day is for you.

GODLY CONTRIBUTIONS???????????? I have to say something used as an expression, but this time I mean it literally...HOLY CRAP BATMAN.This guy should found a Church....The Phil Collins Witness.

And the strangest thing is that some people say that we Prog fans blame Collins for the Genes9is change....For God's (the real, not the 4 feet bald one) the POP fans give Collins all the credit for that aberration.

So it's not our hate for Collins music, if Prog fans blame him for the change. don't accuse us, because POP lovers adore him for the change and place the responsability on his shoulders. 

Hope after this nobody again call us fanatics, because this guy is ready for Loonyville.

Iván

Ah, what the hell. He made a fortune peddling pop and disco to the "SHEEP"

What a complete turn around.

Like Phil or not, he certainly knows where the money is.

dojonane wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I rather listen Punk than a Pink Flloyd or Yes album. I never understood The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway I would never let Peter rejoin Genesis (Genesis a History) If we were ever remotely popular is when Peter left. Yes genesis music is boring, but boring is good also....he, he Iván Ivan, do you have links for any of these interviews where he defames prog? I've been very interested to see it direct from the cow's udder so to speak.

Yes, you can find all in Genesis a History (Except the one of The Lamb that was quoted in Prog Archives some time ago, pronbably 2005), Video Biography of the band, not an interview, ha says everything word by word (or very similar words.

Of the others, there are a lot of Internet, as a Genesis fan I read evrything related, but don't have everything in the memory.

Just in case, here's a later interview (when he was no longer popular in 1993)

Q: In retrospect, how much did punk rock really affect your life? Well, I always felt that, hey, this big shake up ain't going to affect us, because there's substance to what we're doing. I never really felt threatened by it. But what I did feel was that it was going to get rid of a lot of that crap that was around. Q: Like who? Let's name names (laughs). Well, I mean, I had never been a fan of the bands that we'd always been compared to. I never really liked Jethro Tull that much. I never liked ELP at all. I was a big fan of the early Yes, but after Fragile I kind of lost interest. And the Floyd I've never loved apart from Arnold Layne. But we did this gig on Saturday at Cowdray Park for King Edward VII Hospital, and it was Queen, us, Clapton and the Floyd, and actually I went to the soundcheck and I was listening to the Floyd and a couple of the things they played I thought; I quite like that. There's a couple of things in there that, you know ... http://www.philcollins.co.uk/q1293.htm - http://www.philcollins.co.uk/q1293.htm

Even in 1993 after he was more moderate he dared to call CRAP to Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Yes after Fragile (Including Close to the Edge, Tales and Relayer) and ELP.

Some more:

- you put them in corners. I hate doing it ... and I hate it happening to us. you put Genesis over there in a corner with yes, ELP. Moody Blues and the Floyd. because that's the period we happened to come up in." "Personally," admitted Phil. "I don't like any of those groups - so it angers me and frustrates me when we got compared to them. because I don't think . . . well. we've got a lot more substance and a lot more balls. and we're constantly questioning ourselves much more than any of them. And we've tried - and succeeded - to develop over the years, we've changed our music, because we keep our ears to the ground more than, say. the Moody Blues." http://www.philcollins.co.uk/sounds251282.htm - http://www.philcollins.co.uk/sounds251282.htm

In 1983 he said clearly he didn't liked Yes, ELP, Moody Blues and Pink Floyd (But of course in the first quote he said he lijked Yes, but of course it was in 1993, when POP Genesis didnt existed.

Jusrt two examples, if you get tye video you'll find most of them.

Iván

it seems he did not like Genesis either

Quote

Q: Did you understand it all?
No. No, no. A lot of the early Genesis stuff was surreal sci-fi fantasy escapism and I can't listen to it I'm not a big fan of our past. When I listen to an old Genesis record, nine times out of 10 I tend to be embarrassed by it. I mean, Tony Banks would sit here and say he's not embarrassed by it.

Q: Was Genesis the only job you went for?
No. God, no. I was a professional auditioner for about six months. I played in the Cliff Charles Blues Band for a few months, playing shuffles all night. That was good fun. I went for the audition for Vinegar Joe - didn't get it - and Manfred Mann's Chapter Three I went for - didn't get it - and I used to go and see Yes pretty regularly at the Marquee Club, and when Bill Bruford was going back to Leeds University before their first album they were looking for a drummer to replace him. I went backstage to see Jon Anderson, he said 'Give me a call Tuesday'. Never called him back. And I often wonder how my life would have been different had I gone for that and got it.

http://www.philcollins.co.uk/q1293.htm - http://www.philcollins.co.uk/q1293.htm

russellk wrote: OK. I'm setting up Russell's Counselling Service for Hurt and Abused Proggers. I'll charge exorbitant fees (while wiping froth from quivering mouths) while gently explaining that it's contradictory to want artists to follow their own muse but at the same time always deliver the musical direction the fans want. I'll have a big poster of Phil on the wall, and will require all my clients to kiss his chubby face while chanting the names of all his top 10 hits. Lads, get over it. Phil Collins is not the reason you've grown old. His musical 'change of direction' did not inevitably lead the the depression and bitterness you feel. You identify with early Genesis because that's when you were young and, to be blunt, doing it. Now you're old and incontinent it's tempting to hold one man responsible. But here's a tip: things change. Phil went and did what he wanted. You'll never forgive him for it, will you.

THANK YOU ruselllk for putting down in typo what needed to be said. Too many sad anorack type comments on why and why not PC was not one of the PEOPLE of prog.Just because we buy progressive music for 30 odd years and deem ourselves " serious" fans does not make our opinions right ( or wrong). PC was and still is a remarkable contributor to progressive music. Don't date stamp your music listening, people, enjoy it in the now. Too much pompus negative criticism for my liking....rave on PC!!!

After reading "The Book of Genesis"(1984) by Hugh Fielder it´s hard to see why so many people are blaming Phil and almost only praising Gabriel and Hackett for the good progalbums Genesis did 1970-76.

I don´t think it´s fair to judge someone by 30 year old (or even 5 years) quotes but in this thread there are a lot of things Phil supposedly said. Here are some qoutes from the book - do they change our opinions of why Genesis sounded prog then but later evolved to something else?

• Steve: "I was an innocent bystander on the Lamb... It happened despite me, not with me... The nightmarishly long sides - everything linked to everything else... I couldn´t quite get to grips with it or contribute something great in a guitar sense...I don´t think Tony has ever done a finer album."
• Tony(about the Lamb): "...Pete went off and wrote lyrics and everyone else wrote the music."
• Mike(about the Lamb): When it came out it was a commercial failure. People talk about it now as a classic, but at the time, it died a death.
• Phil(about the Lamb): "It certainly wasn´t my one of my favourite albums at the time but I can see now that it´s one of our better recordings...still suffering from bad production..."
• Peter(about I know what I like): "We always tried to avoid writing hits...actually now I think it was really dumb."

Reading the book it seems like Mike and Tony were the most proggish, both playing and composing in that manner. Phil didn´t like confrontations and therefor(?) he´s liked by the other ones, of course his drumming, composing and singing skills plays in as well . Steve was never really a part of the Genesis sound. Noone(even Gabriel) really understood the Lamb lyrics.´

These are my interpretations of a book I read just recently. Let me read it one more time and I see something new.

What is the truth? Does it matter? All I know is that I like Genesis in the 70´s more than I like them in the 80´s or 90´s(even if they still have their moments). The change of direction - who is to blame? All of them - I´m sure they would have changed directions even with PG and Hackett in the band. It´s not Phils fault!

russellk wrote: OK. I'm setting up Russell's Counselling Service for Hurt and Abused Proggers. I'll charge exorbitant fees (while wiping froth from quivering mouths) while gently explaining that it's contradictory to want artists to follow their own muse but at the same time always deliver the musical direction the fans want. I'll have a big poster of Phil on the wall, and will require all my clients to kiss his chubby face while chanting the names of all his top 10 hits.

Now there's a thought.

I must admit that I have also had this little black spot on my soul for not liking PC enough. I know deep in my heart that I should like him more, and everybody keeps asking me why I don't like PC as much as they do. Even if I start by saying how much I admire him as a drummer, they'll somehow sense this dark side of me right away.

I know his music must be the pinnacle of joy and enlightenment, since there are so many fun things to do whilst listening to his music, like shopping, ice-skating, eating burgers, traveling by elevator or going to the zoo. I can see that people who listen to his music are doing well in life also and do not catch diseases as soon as people who do not like him enough, like homeless people or drug-addicts.

Please help me like him more.

Seems like people can't read quotes and analyze what is written between lines:

Piltdown Man wrote:

I don´t think it´s fair to judge someone by 30 year old (or even 5 years) quotes but in this thread there are a lot of things Phil supposedly said. Here are some qoutes from the book - do they change our opinions of why Genesis sounded prog then but later evolved to something else?

I believe it's fair, because you can analyze who is always coherent (even when his ideas may evolve) and who changes his opion in virtue of the finantial situation each 5 years

Piltdown man wrote:

Steve: "I was an innocent bystander on the Lamb... It happened despite me, not with me... The nightmarishly long sides - everything linked to everything else... I couldn´t quite get to grips with it or contribute something great in a guitar sense...I don´t think Tony has ever done a finer album." Steve said he didn't participated too much in The Lamb, but he believes it's Tony's finest musical job in other words, he always liked The Lamb, this is coherent with his behaviour, he never ceased to do Progressive Rock albums and was the first and only Genesis member to do a tribute ("Genesis Revisited" and "Tokyo Tapes"). He even invited Tony who first accepted and after a while refused (Taken from the same site where the Steve Hackett interview was copied at the end of this post).  Tony(about the Lamb): "...Pete went off and wrote lyrics and everyone else wrote the music." What about this? He saiid something that is not new for anybody, Peter did the whole lyrixcs, Tony made the music and his words about "everyone else wote the music" prove how humble he is, because even Steve mentions the music of The Lamb as TONY'S FINEST JOB Mike(about the Lamb): When it came out it was a commercial failure. People talk about it now as a classic, but at the time, it died a death. He prepares the ground, The Lamb was not popular when relased, but it's popular now, something we all know. Can't find the relevance of this quote, Mike is saying nothing new. It's important to notice that Mike says nothing about the musical quality, he says it was a commercial faillure, something we all know. Phil(about the Lamb): "It certainly wasn´t my one of my favourite albums at the time but I can see now that it´s one of our better recordings...still suffering from bad production..." We know Tony made the music, Peter the lyrics and stiry, probably the rest madse some arrangements but nothing else, but Phil said that he didn't liked The Lamb when it was unpopular and he was gaining millions with his music, but now that The Lamb is 100 times more popular than any thing done by Three  men Genesis (And of course much more profitable) jhe discovers a hidden love for it. Remember that the guy said on many interviews (When his POP music was cool) that he hated Prog', the quotes are here, he disliked Yes, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and ELP.....HE CALLED THEM CRAP!!!!!!! But even worst, he  felt embarrased when he listened the albums that now says he loves.....Phil's behaviour is clear, he knows where the bucks are and his natural contradictions work in the same direction as the market. Peter(about I know what I like): "We always tried to avoid writing hits...actually now I think it was really dumb." What about this? He left Genesis with almost no money, he spent the few bucks he had in a non profitable but artistically acclaimed WOMAD, so it's normal that making some hits without compromising the quality would have been economically better. But check something, Pete offered a huge amount of money to any person or company who had a full copy of The Lamb for 30 years, The Lamb was his concept, his child, I see nothing incoherent in his behaviour and/or words. Reading the book it seems like Mike and Tony were the most proggish, both playing and composing in that manner.  What??? Mike's first 100% own composition was Your Own Special Way, his work with the Mechanics and even his own is mostly POP. Tony was Prog oriented, but Peter set the path for the band, use The Lamb as an example, he created the concept and made the lyrics before the music and everybody followed him. Phil didn´t like confrontations and therefor(?) he´s liked by the other ones, of course his drumming, composing and singing skills plays in as well . Sorry, but Phil barely did anything except More Fool Me until ATTW3, not even in ATOTT and much less in W&W which was mainly a Banks (At least 70%) - Hackett product with one Rutherford track Steve was never really a part of the Genesis sound. Noone(even Gabriel) really understood the Lamb lyrics.´ What?? Steve created the Atmospheric trademark of Genesis, Genesis really grows when he joins and changes to POP whe he leaves. And please, Peter created The Lamb concept and lyrics, he had to understand them What is the truth? Does it matter? All I know is that I like Genesis in the 70´s more than I like them in the 80´s or 90´s(even if they still have their moments). The change of direction - who is to blame? All of them Of course, the three of them, but if Prog fans blame Phil for the change, POP fans credit Phoil for the change and Collins solo work is almost identical to Genesis late work, Then the answer is clear, Phil lead the change.  - I´m sure they would have changed directions even with PG and Hackett in the band. It´s not Phils fault! Yes, but I0m sure that Peter and Steve would never allowed things as Illegal Alien, Misunderstanding or Who Dunnit? Steve felt that W&W was weak and left his music was much more similar to early Genesis than any other member's stuff, so imagine what he would have thought about lñater albums? In case yoiu don't know, here is a quote from him: WOG: Do you recall a particular moment when you were in Genesis when you felt that it just wasn't worth staying in the band anymore? SH: Basically, the deciding factor was the fact that I had material that I felt was very strong, but I felt was outside the capability of the group to perform. Like, for instance, the song that Randy Crawford sings, "I Think Love Will Last," on Please Don't Touch!, which was the opening track of side two of that album. I thought the whole musical extravaganza of that side was strong, and I still do. I was really edging away from the group at that point. I was getting tired of bringing ideas into the group which I felt they weren't going to do. If the ideas were more radical, they weren't necessarily going to do them. I felt that the band was heading towards an area that was becoming very safe.   (...) WOG: There have been all sorts of rumors and speculation that particular members of the band sort of steered Genesis into a different musical direction. Was there a natural progression into another style of music or was there a conscious effort to do something more commercial? SH: Well, nobody said, "Let's do something more commercial." Not at that point. The last studio album I had done with the band, which was Wind & Wuthering, was still very much in the spirit of the albums which had preceded it. I think when I left it was another matter. http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/SteveHackettInterview2001.htm   His point of view is clear, he didn't liked the path that Genesis was taking, and he's pretty nice to use the expression SAFE AREA to describe what Genesis was doing. Then he said that until W&W the spirit of the reak Genesis was still alive, and when he left everything changed. So yes, probably Genesis would have changed with Hackett and Gabriel, but never to something as embarrasing as they did.

Iván

Seems like people can't read quotes and analyze what is written between lines:

I`ve read a lot of your messages during my short time at the progarchives and I think you write well and passionate about many subjects. I´m a little bit surprised by your opinion on my capability of reading between the lines. I don´t know if you read the book by Hugh Fielder I referred to but I know that it´s quite possible that two indviduals would find different meanings behind the lines. I think it´s better with a more open opinion than to say I´m right, you´re wrong. I admit that the quotes I used were quickly found and that it isn´t a fair way to judge someone. They have the right to change opinions in my world. This time I`ll try to leave out the direct quotes and more talk about what I read between the lines. If anyone else have read it I´ll be glad to hear your opinions.

The Genesis so many of us like wouldn´t have been without any of members. They all put in something that made their music special. In the book Tony says that Phil liked Yes and brought some of their playing ability to Genesis. Mike says that Phil´s drumming added a new dimension to Genesis. Mike, Tony and Peter seem to be working very well together composing and it´s hard for Phil and Steve in the beginning to contribute. Peter says that Steve wrote things they all liked but quite a lot that they didn´t like. Steve saw it as a compromise joining the band. He wasn´t a fan of the music. Reading the book I get the feeling that he only felt really involved in Selling England...First he says he had a slight inferior complex as a composer, his ideas were not well recieved, his marriage ended etc. Still his guitarplay was very important to the music even if his composing didn´t reach the albums.

If I were to sum up my opinions of the five (actually leaving out Ant Phillips seems wrong since I think his guitarplay was important to the early Genesissound and the fact that Mike called him the key member at the time) members life after Genesis:

• I have the highest respect for Peter Gabriel. I think is albums are really great. Not necessarily prog-music, sometimes pop, but always honest and with depth. He finds new ways both in composing and performing. My absolute favourite solocareer.
• Phil is a fantastic drummer, good singer and composer but I don´t like his albums.
• Steve is a great guitarplayer, ok composer. I´ve got several of his albums -there are some good songs but I think they are uneven and not consistent.
• I love Mike´s Smallcreeps day but then his albums don´t appeal to me.
• Tony is somewhat a disappointment to me. In my opinion his solo albums lacks something, considering his influence on the composing Genesis-music.

I feel like I´ve sort of left the point wether Phil is nasty or not...

• From what I´ve read the members have all stated that there were things they didn´t like about the albums I love.
• Changing musical opinons is healthy in my opinion - we shouldn´t blame Phil for that. Their solo efforts have more or less with progmusic to do.
• You can´t go on making music your fans like, do what feels right for you at the moment.
• Phil´s Face value was regarded groundbreaking for the drumsound - isn´t that musical progress?
• Reading the book the other members praise Phil for his contributions to the band both as a musican, writer and friend making evreryone feel good.

Summary: I don´t think Phil is a nasty man and he doesn´t deserve all the critisicm he sometimes gets here at Progarchives.

I think P. Collins just sold out for the money. He's not the only prog artist to go pop. Mike Oldfield didnt get radio play with Ommadawn or Incantations so he made Islands half pop. (but side 1 "Wind Chimes" is superb). Or Equator by Uriah Heep. Yikes! But P. Collins comments about prog were very foolish, it alienated fans for no purpose.

As for Slayer!'s comment about Fripp I heard that too. Why else were so many band members changing. If you get the re-mastered albums on CD the liner notes are very interesting, with some old news clippings about his breakup with Sinfield etc. Maybe a good topic for a new thread?

Slayer! wrote: I don't know about Phil Collins....but I hear Robert Fripp is a real jerk. Not busting the guy, I actually have a lot of respect for him, I'm just saying what I heard.   Can anyone confirm this?

I don't think Phil Collins can be fully blamed for the change of direction.  He wasn't the only member of the band, and it wasn't a chnage that happened overnight.  The first album after Gabriel left was still very progressive sounding, and as the albums after came out, the change could be heard more and more.  This is why I don't think they sold out or did it for any other reason than that is what they wanted to do.  Bands always change, and poor Phil just happened to headline the band as it started turning away from it's roots, and he gets branded as the bands destructor.  He was a member from the beginning, when they did there really masterful work, but no one seems to mention that.

No one also seems to mention how great of a drummer he was (I am not sure if he still is).  He could really play.

As of late though, I think Phil Collins has sold out, but not the with Genesis.  I mean, how many damn sings can one guy write for Disney?  He must have a contract for a hundred and one sappy stereotypical songs for Disney movies.

piltdown man wrote: I`ve read a lot of your messages during my short time at the progarchives and I think you write well and passionate about many subjects. I´m a little bit surprised by your opinion on my capability of reading between the lines. I don´t know if you read the book by Hugh Fielder I referred to but I know that it´s quite possible that two indviduals would find different meanings behind the lines. I think it´s better with a more open opinion than to say I´m right, you´re wrong. I admit that the quotes I used were quickly found and that it isn´t a fair way to judge someone. They have the right to change opinions in my world. This time I`ll try to leave out the direct quotes and more talk about what I read between the lines. If anyone else have read it I´ll be glad to hear your opinions. Don't judge you, by the contrary, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate woith people well informed and not with some blind fans from other site that say everything Genesis did is perfect becausee it's Genesis. But I understand a totally different thing from your quotes, but again it's only my opinion. The Genesis so many of us like wouldn´t have been without any of members. They all put in something that made their music special. In the book Tony says that Phil liked Yes and brought some of their playing ability to Genesis. But you have read him saying that anything after Fragile is crap, and that was a literal quote. Mike says that Phil´s drumming added a new dimension to Genesis. Would have to be an idiot not to agree with this, my problem is not with his drumming, I recently had a discussion with a member who said he was only an average drummer not able to plñay with Yes. My problem is not even Phil the singer (Even when I like Pete's voice and singing more), my problem is wiyth Phil the songwritter. Mike, Tony and Peter seem to be working very well together composing and it´s hard for Phil and Steve in the beginning to contribute. Peter says that Steve wrote things they all liked but quite a lot that they didn´t like. Steve saw it as a compromise joining the band. He wasn´t a fan of the music. Reading the book I get the feeling that he only felt really involved in Selling England...First he says he had a slight inferior complex as a composer, his ideas were not well recieved, his marriage ended etc. Still his guitarplay was very important to the music even if his composing didn´t reach the albums. Sorry man, but Steve is the only Genesis member that released a whole album with new version of Genesis songs, i can't understand how somebody can say he didn't liked the music. Not even Peter made an album with all Genesis tracks, only Steve. If I were to sum up my opinions of the five (actually leaving out Ant Phillips seems wrong since I think his guitarplay was important to the early Genesissound and the fact that Mike called him the key member at the time) members life after Genesis: I have the highest respect for Peter Gabriel. I think is albums are really great. Not necessarily prog-music, sometimes pop, but always honest and with depth. He finds new ways both in composing and performing. My absolute favourite solocareer. Agree Phil is a fantastic drummer, good singer and composer but I don´t like his albums. Agree Steve is a great guitarplayer, ok composer. I´ve got several of his albums -there are some good songs but I think they are uneven and not consistent.  Agree except with his uneven albums, his career is the most solid from any ex-big 6 band member. I love Mike´s Smallcreeps day but then his albums don´t appeal to me. Not even Smallcreeps day for me Tony is somewhat a disappointment to me. In my opinion his solo albums lacks something, considering his influence on the composing Genesis-music. Agree, Tony is the kind of guy who needs somebody pushing him IMO I feel like I´ve sort of left the point wether Phil is nasty or not... From what I´ve read the members have all stated that there were things they didn´t like about the albums I love. Everybody has favorites and some not so favoriyte albums, but Phil is the only one that said he felt embarrased to listn early Genesis albums. Changing musical opinons is healthy in my opinion - we shouldn´t blame Phil for that. Their solo efforts have more or less with progmusic to do. There are changes and changes, I believe Genesis change was infamous. You can´t go on making music your fans like, do what feels right for you at the moment. No you can't, but ou can avoid selling out. Phil´s Face value was regarded groundbreaking for the drumsound - isn´t that musical progress?  It was performance evolution, even the cheesiest pianist gets better with years but his songwritting is musical degradation IMO. Reading the book the other members praise Phil for his contributions to the band both as a musican, writer and friend making evreryone feel good. Well, he filled their pockets Summary: I don´t think Phil is a nasty man and he doesn´t deserve all the critisicm he sometimes gets here at Progarchives. I don't think he's bnasty, seems a nice chap, but he said too many stupid things and then contradicted himself depending in the way the market went, He said Prog is crap when Prog was unpopular and harrased by Punk, Disco or New Wave, but when his boring pop became part of the past he changed and said he always was a proghead. Iván

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Don't judge you, by the contrary, I'm happy to have an intelligent debate woith people well informed and not with some blind fans from other site that say everything Genesis did is perfect becausee it's Genesis.

But I understand a totally different thing from your quotes, but again it's only my opinion.

Thank you, I agree with you about the intelligent debate and even if we disagree about somethings in the end it´s down to a matter of opinons.

Sorry man, but Steve is the only Genesis member that released a whole album with new version of Genesis songs, i can't understand how somebody can say he didn't liked the music.

Not even Peter made an album with all Genesis tracks, only Steve.

I only wonder what your reaction would be if (a big if!) Phil releases "My favourite Genesis tracks from the 70`s" - rerecorded with old friends. I know my reaction to Hacketts "Genesis revisited" was- Hmm, I guess he´s running out of money...

As I wrote, I find Hacketts soloalbums uneven but on the other hand his music is solid (apart from that GTR-thing, didn´t like it!) and (apart from the bluesalbum) he has stayed on the same ground, progrelated and close to classical guitarmusic. He knows what he likes...

piltdown man wrote: Thank you, I agree with you about the intelligent debate and even if we disagree about somethings in the end it´s down to a matter of opinons. Idem I only wonder what your reaction would be if (a big if!) Phil releases "My favourite Genesis tracks from the 70`s" - rerecorded with old friends. I know my reaction to Hacketts "Genesis revisited" was- Hmm, I guess he´s running out of money... Well Steve was recording a couple of other albums and he was wealthy by that moment, his dream was always to make Genesis sound as he wanted to listen them If Phil made a compilation of 70's albums I wouldn't think he's running out of money (In first place nobody will acept to do a Prog Genesis album with him), I would think hre wants MORE money, and he's trying to recapture Prog' fanbase. But Steve wa always a Genesis fan, even when he wanted to make some modifications, he only could achive that making it himself, and lets be honest, he used an expensive cast: http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,462127,00.html - Nick Magnus Keyboards, Programming http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,465689,00.html - Ian McDonald Flute, Saxophone, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,476495,00.html - Pino Palladino Bass http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,477800,00.html - Jerry Peal Keyboards, Programming, Engineer http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,480458,00.html - Kim Poor Illustrations, Cover Art http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,557737,00.html - Richard MacPhail Vocals (Background) http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,601746,00.html - Billy Budis Mixing http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,606325,00.html - Hugo Degenhardt Drums http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,607901,00.html - Matt Dunkley Arranger, Conductor http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,657038,00.html - Gerry O'Riordan Engineer, Mixing http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,657140,00.html - Lippa Pearce Design http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,689196,00.html - Aron Friedman Piano, Programming, Orchestration, Fender Rhodes, Fortepiano, Keyboards http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,708726,00.html - Anton de Bruck Director http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,710531,00.html - Spats King Vocals (Background), Vibraphone http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,910690,00.html - Will Bates Saxophone http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,1490084,00.html - Bob Fenner Programming, Orchestration http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,2617779,00.html - Richard Wayler Vocals (Background) http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,2688622,00.html - Jeanne Downs Vocals (Background) http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,501435,00.html - Chester Thompson Drums, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,405586,00.html - Colin Blunstone Vocals, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,415269,00.html - Paul Clark Photography http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,487535,00.html - Royal Philharmonic Orchestra Orchestra, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,488928,00.html - Sanchez Vocals, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,416135,00.html - Julian Colbeck Keyboards http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,429809,00.html - Ben Fenner Keyboards, Programming, Orchestration, Engineer http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,439803,00.html - John Hackett Flute http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,449671,00.html - Alphonso Johnson Bass, ?, Drums http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,453510,00.html - Roger King Keyboards, Mixing, Orchestration, Engineer, Programming http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,458436,00.html - Tony Levin Bass, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,409146,00.html - Bill Bruford Percussion, Drums, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,412324,00.html - Paul Carrack Vocals, ? http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,439808,00.html - Steve Hackett Guitar, Orchestration, ?, Main Performer, Harmonica, Percussion, Vocals, Producer, Vocals (Background) http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,508905,00.html - John Wetton Bass, ?, Vocals LOL. I found Richard Mc'Phaill here, at that point and due to the 1973 in memorian, I thought McPhaill was dead, later I found an interview by him (2001) and new he was alive and healthy but only today found he made backing vocals in Genesis Revisited. I wonder something, this guy was never a Genesis member, he was describe as a "Musical friend of the band", what the hell is he doing here? But back to the point, the investment in this album was big, Bruford, Levin, Wetton, Ian Mc'Donnald, Julian Colbeck, etc are not cheap, and he knew from thestartthis album would never be a hit. As I wrote, I find Hacketts soloalbums uneven but on the other hand his music is solid (apart from that GTR-thing, didn´t like it!) and (apart from the bluesalbum) he has stayed on the same ground, progrelated and close to classical guitarmusic. He knows what he likes... I agree, one weak album, because GTR was a multi members enterproce that involved even Steve Howe, but it wa a disaster. Iván

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It's really weird how people attack Phil Collins.  He's probably one of the nicest, most down-to-earth guys in music (and that should be a good thing).

He's a good drummer.  Just listen to Brand X and live Genesis.  He's also a competent singer, whether with prog., jazz, or pop.

He isn't the main cause of downfall for Genesis, so shut up about that.  All three members of the trio Genesis played a part in the decision to simplifiy their sound, with Banks being the most in charge.  With the exception of when he is doing his solo work, Collins is usually the one most in the background, going with the opinions of the rest of the group. 

No, I'm not a big fan of Collins, and no, I don't have any of his solo albums.  But he deserves more respect.

Phil Collins (onion head) <-nickname), is a great drummer and that is where i believed he should have stayed. However he did turn Genesis into a pop group and laughed all the way to the bank.

I like Genesis lps up until  the release of Abacab (grabascab) after that they really went down hill for me. Duke lp is OK but Misunderstanding shoud not be on that LP that is more of Onion Head solo lp song.

Also note that Onion Head didn't do much writting on the good Genesis LPs like: Foxtrot, Trespass, Selling England, Lamb, Nursery, Trick of the tail, EWnd and Wuthering.

Reading some of these commentaries in this thread I started to think that Phil Collins is really underrated because not too many drummers are key members in their bands. In fact, most of the names of the drummers appear almost always at the end of the credits in the album covers. Not too many of them sing even backing vocals, not too many of them are composers, not too many of them become famous as soloists, not too many of them are very good lead singers.

I also think that he is underrated, because he likes ballads, and not many people who likes Prog Music likes ballads.

It seems that :

-Guitarists/vocalists/bassists/keyboardists "heroes" are the most important members  in a band . Even the sax players who sometimes only play 3 notes or a solo in songs are more impotant than drummers in bands (it is the same in Jazz, not only in Rock bands).

-Drummers who are lead singers "better should stay behind the drum kit and not to sing". Drummers are not really "musicians", because they don`t play "musical notes", so... let`s keep them in the background.

-Ballads in Prog Rock are underrated, because Prog Rock is not "romantic".

I know...some people are not going to like my commentaries .

I Totally 100% Agrree IVAN

jon

I think Onion Head's communication skills are obnoxious. You can tell he is play acting. It's just horrible. It sounds like ever thing thing is scripted and being read by a bad actor. He is just a great drummer. That's All.

Gabriel, Hackett, Rutherford and banks Are great composers.

Xenoxen wrote: Phil Collins (onion head) <-nickname), is a great drummer and that is where i believed he should have stayed. However he did turn Genesis into a pop group and laughed all the way to the bank. I like Genesis lps up until  the release of Abacab (grabascab) after that they really went down hill for me. Duke lp is OK but Misunderstanding shoud not be on that LP that is more of Onion Head solo lp song. Also note that Onion Head didn't do much writting on the good Genesis LPs like: Foxtrot, Trespass, Selling England, Lamb, Nursery, Trick of the tail, EWnd and Wuthering.

I thougfh the consensus was that Collins was not the only reason, but just a small part of Genesis's evolving into a pop band?

And why is he called Onion Head?

Ivan
I think we have reached the end of our discussion wether Phil is nasty or not. I´d say we agree on his drummingskills. So I continue quite off topic!

Actually I haven´t heard Hacketts Genesis revisited - is it good? I never liked the idea of re-recording old favourites but I´m getting a little bit intrested now. It is an impressing line up. A lot of well-known names. I think try get hold of the album.

[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]

LOL. I found Richard Mc'Phaill here, at that point and due to the 1973 in memorian, I thought McPhaill was dead, later I found an interview by him (2001) and new he was alive and healthy but only today found he made backing vocals in Genesis Revisited.

I wonder something, this guy was never a Genesis member, he was describe as a "Musical friend of the band", what the hell is he doing here?

I guess he is as close as you can get being a Genesis member without being one.    Some info from Hugh Fielders book:
In 1965 Ant Phillips formed the band Anon with Richard Macphail, Rivers Job, Rob Tyrrell & Mike Rutherford. They did some concerts and demos and then the real story started with Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel joining Ant and Mike 1967. Apparently he was a close friend of the band  because in 1969 Genesis moved to cottage owned by Richard Macphail's parents to concentrate on writing. Later on he became tourmanager for Genesis.

I am reminded of this Amazon review of "Dance Into the Light" (which, incidently, has the funniest Phil Collins album cover)

Unbelievable Progressive Masterpiece a la Suppers Ready, September 24, 2005 Reviewer: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-glance/-/AUHZ4NEDBKM1X/1/ref=cm_cr_auth/102-8787196-3862509?%5Fencoding=UTF8 - Posted By: Losendos Date Posted: April 14 2006 at 18:03     My opinion is that Phil is a nice person with a good sense of humour . If he didn't have considerable good qualities  the band would not have stayed together for sixteen years which is like an epic length.As for him selling out I think what everyone underestimates is that the taste of the public had changed by the 80s. Just like Dean Martin or Perry Como were passe by the 70s prog was out of fashion in the late 80s and I don't think anyone could really change that. So Phil did pop some good , some average and some contrived but all big selling. His disparaging remarks about prog was probably a case of being less than honest.Another point in his defense is that he was one of the later ones to "sell out".  So I can understand he creates mixed emotions  , the disappointment we all felt with the direction of music through the 80s but I think he has been turned into a scapegoat for a much broader trend.   I also think he made a very significant positive contribution to Genesis' heyday.     ------------- How wonderful to be so profound Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M Date Posted: April 14 2006 at 19:31 piltdown man wrote: Ivan I think we have reached the end of our discussion wether Phil is nasty or not. I´d say we agree on his drummingskills. So I continue quite off topic! I agree 100% it0s absurd to consider him nasty, the guy made a solid contribution with his drumming and backing vocals during Gabriel years and a pretty decent job as lead vocalist in ATOTT and specially on W&W. To be honest, the problem started with all the band specially because many people believe (I also do) that the relation between Tony and Steve wasn't good since he recorded Voyage (Tony was clear, no solo projects, and Steve didn't invited him but calling Mike and Phil), plus the fact that Tony was suposed to be the main songwritter, but Steve wanted to fight this position with him The whole band took Tony's side (There's no Genesis without Tony) instead of compromising, giving more songs to Steve, It's ridiculous that Your Own Special Way was in W&W instead of Steve's superior material. but it was some kind of fight for the power and Tony won. This was so clear that in Seconfs Out during the mixture they recorded guitar parts withan incredibly low volume. This went further, Steve wasn't even invited to the 1982 reunion in Milton Keynes (Only played the encores, because he was in audience). But I believe Steve won more, because he didn't took part in the POP Genesis (Something with what he clearly disagrees) and made a solid career. Most surely he didn't made s much money as Phil Tony and Mike, but he has a wealthy positiobn and artistic respect, something that Genesis lost. The problem is that after a couple of albums Tony lost xcontrol and Phil decided what path to take, making a parallel solo career that is comonly mistaken with Genesis later albums, that's what I blame him for. Actually I haven´t heard Hacketts Genesis revisited - is it good? I never liked the idea of re-recording old favourites but I´m getting a little bit intrested now. It is an impressing line up. A lot of well-known names. I think try get hold of the album. Except the horrible version of Your Own Special Way (Already horrible) because Paul Carrack sounds as Elmer Fudd , the mediocre Bossa Nova version of I Know What I like and the hard to swallow Waiting Room Only, the rest of the album (8 more tracks) is outstanding. Watcher of the skies is very good and solid vocals by John Wetton, Fountain of Salmacis is great with an acoustic guitar intro and Steve singing ections with vocodsr , but my favorite is the Orchestral version of Firth of Fifth, very beautiful.  If you like it, get Tokyo Tapes, with live versions of various songs from this album,  ITCOTCK and I Talk to the Wind by King Crimson plus a semi acoustic version of Heat of the Moment and a lot of Hackett material. I guess he is as close as you can get being a Genesis member without being one.    Some info from Hugh Fielders book: In 1965 Ant Phillips formed the band Anon with Richard Macphail, Rivers Job, Rob Tyrrell & Mike Rutherford. They did some concerts and demos and then the real story started with Tony Banks and Peter Gabriel joining Ant and Mike 1967. Apparently he was a close friend of the band  because in 1969 Genesis moved to cottage owned by Richard Macphail's parents to concentrate on writing. Later on he became tourmanager for Genesis. What I can't still understand is the almost in memorian picture of him in Live 73. "This album is dedicated to Richard MacPhail who left April, 1973." Most of the people i know think he is dead, even when the death man is healthier than ever. Iván    -------------              Posted By: subtraction Date Posted: April 14 2006 at 19:41 Phil Colins killed my friends younger brother, I saw him do it i swear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 Posted By: Gianthogweed Date Posted: April 15 2006 at 17:29 subtraction wrote: Phil Colins killed my friends younger brother, I saw him do it i swear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 You were there to see what he did with your own two eyes?

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