inevitably there are tracks on an album (a forteriori the long ones) that are obviously used as filling the content of an album behind the so-called hits to be pushed by radio airplay.

 

I think it must be distinguished between the "second choice" stuff a band writes (which I would call tracks that band clearly intended to be prime stuff but ended up in lesser mode not quite as good (artistically succesful) and thje obvious throwaway pieces that are called fillers.

  

 

 

Tarkus

 

1. Tarkus: Eruption (2:44) 
    Stones Of Years (3:44) 
    Iconoclast (1:16)
    Mass (3:12) 
   Manticore (1:52) 
   Battlefield (3:51) 
   Aquatarkus (4:04)  >>> Tarkus is a core track of the album
2. Jeremy Bender (1:51)   >> a tyical ragtime piece , a facet of ELP>> not my cup of tea

3. Bitches Crystal (3:58) >> second choice material>> still worthy
4. The Only Way (Hymn)(3:49) >>> Classical rework >> core material of the album
Toccata in F and Prelude VI (themes used in intro and bridge only)composed by: Bach
5. Infinite Space (Conclusion)(3:20)  >> cannot really remember it but likely linked to previous track
6. A Time And A Place (3:02) >> second choice material>> still worthy
7. Are You Ready Eddy? (2:10) >> nothing to do with ELP, a throwaway piece >> a filler

 

 

 

In this case the filler is short and at the end of the album, can be skipped (can even be fun) etc.. so it does not really ruin the album. But if tyhere are some three tracks like that, they hinder the smooth progression of the album, then it becomes a problem. It should definitely be taken into account on the ratings

 

 

 

 

 

Fillers are what I described in my previous post

 

Bonus tracks can be appreciated in the ratings if they bring a definite value to the original albums (ie in a Cd re-issue):  Genesis's SEBTP with Twilight Alehouse as bonus is a definte plus , but SEBTP with studio in progress version of Cinema Show are ruining the playing of the album >> however interesting this may be.

 

 

you are not talking about filler tracks,

 

 

So much of it is subjective.   What is one's man's filler is another man's meat and potatoes.    Ideally, a reviewer should, when faced with a track they initially dislike, take it upon himself to understand the intentions of the band in creating it, as well as their overall vision.   Simply dismissing it as "filler" is mindless and doesn't benefit anyone. 

 

The word needs to be expunged from the dictionary!

 

-

  With regards to the "10000 Days" pieces mentioned they are a bridge or introduce a theme to a following track.Tool have always done this so it is a part of what they are.

  Regarding your original question Mike, I think they have to be included.Just because a reviewer is too narrow minded to recognise a short bridge or amusing addition is their problem. Another reviewer may actually appreciate these bridges and rate them accordingly.I know I would.Good topic and one that has been bugging me.

 Ah but a hidden track is just that and so cant be included in the normal rating.I have cd's with hidden tracks and haven't found them!

 

Hidden tracks are different this you describe is completely annoying...

 

oddentity wrote: I hate the word "filler".  I think it's disrespectful to the artists involved to call what they have worked hard to create "filler".   Sometimes it might be justified, but all too often reviewers lazily throw the word "filler" at tracks they don't comprehend and haven't taken the time to appreciate.     The word needs to be expunged from the dictionary!

Believe me, the artistes know when they create a filler >>> look at my first post where i make a difference between second choice material and fillers

I absolutely agree...I hate the word "filler" also

Sean Trane wrote:

 

 

But how do you know what the artists themselves consider to be filler?  And how do you know what every listener thinks?    

 

Above, you labelled "Are You Ready, Eddy? as filler, but why do you suppose it really is filler?      If a person enjoys the song as part of the whole ELP experience, then for him it isn't "filler".    

 

 

 

He doesn't know really if an artist intends something to be filler. But "Are You Ready Eddy" has all the halmarks of a studio romp, included for the fun of it. I don't know if that makes it filler or not.

PC it sounds like you are just as pissed off with the reviews recently sl*gging off "fillers" as I am.At least there are some here with common sense and decency to our beloved artists.I have read reviews of Genesis' Lamb where reviewees sl*g off "Silent Sorrow in Empty boats" etc.....Arggh... what are these people on!

  If I wanted to listen to an album with one radio friendly hit after another I wouldn't be on this site.Prog artists by their nature tend to produce albums that make you think, with more depth and meaning to the album as a WHOLE.

Arrghhhh wheres a wall I can bang my head against!

------------------------------------------ > edited by ST

 

 

the example I used for a filler is the one of a full album on its original support. Not the filling space track of a 40 min album to fill up the unused space on a cd.

 

This notion of a filler or throwaway track has existed since the early 70's when albums became the norm since the single was phazed out. Groups now had to have albums with the hits (or likely singles) , but the groups had to come up with other material and for some this was quite a boring task , because they knew they had one or two hits and this would assure selling the album, then the rest of the tracks (filling the alloted space in the vinyl) was quickly made, botched up, poor stuff.

 

remember Elton John was condemend by a tribunal because the parting album done for MCA was fillers and throwaways with no possible tracks to exploit commercially . The court agreed with MCA and forced Elton to have better tracks and the lenght of the album over the 30 min duration (another gripe for MCA). There was never a precedent before that case about how long should a Lp (Long Playing for remembering purposes) >> so this trial became jurisprudence

 

Elton's answer??? you ask: he threw away a few other fillers so the album would meet the duration and that was it.

 

ARTISTES (in general and not specifically prog artistes)  KNOW WHEN THEY ARE WRITING WORTHY STUFF AND THEY KNOW WHEN THEY ARE WRITING FILLERS  >> THEY ONLY HAVE SO MANY IDEAS AND HAVE TO SPREAD THEM EVENLY OVER A FEW ALBUMS  AND NOT CONCENTRATING THEM ON ONE SOLE ALBUM

 

Emerson once called Ready Eddy a throwaway track, and even if a cute joke, the track can only be seen as such especially from a perspective of what ELP is. Another superb example is in Rainbow Rising: Do You Close Your Eyes is a clear filler >> Dio was once quoted so, if memory serves.

 

in musical jargon , the throwaway track is the one that is used to fill-up the space/time  expected for an album while the commercial music is already done

Cynical, uh!!??

 

Why do you think the press started talking about them fillers or throw away tracks? Because they were denouncing this fact!!!! 

------------------------------------ edited by ST

 

 

Filler smiller, in my opinion original releases do not contain any, the album should be rated as a whole. The overall album rating should reflect an the reviewers impression of every song. I disagree with Mike's contention that when reviewing Tool's new album (to cite a specific example) one should be able to discard songs not liked - in fact, I cannot follow the logic of this arguement at all.

 

And I agree with Sean stating that the average CD should be around 40 minutes long (maybe I'm just an old fart who is fondly reminiscing about putting some vinyl on the turntable).

 

To me if an artist wants to release a 77 minute CD it is equivalent to an artist releasing a double vinyl album.

 

Look at Kate Bush's new double CD, I was pleasantly surprised when I found out that each of the two CD's were around 40 minutes in length, the total time of the two clocking in at 80:02 minutes. She has three songs on the CD that each are under 2 minutes in length. She could easily have left off a couple of these (filler?) and created a single CD release.

 

I have two questions:

1. Why didn't she?

2. If she wanted to release a double CD why didn't she add more music to FILLER them up?

 

This is a true double LP. Way to go Kate!

 

About 15 minutes

 

 

 

And yes, it also is true that we don't always know for sure if a certain song we don't feel fitting the rest of the album is a so called 'filler' or anything else, and therefore it's also true that calling that certain track a 'filler' is not fair.

 

It's also true that sometimes we manage to know that certain track is intended by the artist as a filler, but if you enjoyed that particular track, you should still enjoy it!!!

 

Now, another interesting question here is: should bonus tracks (clearly specified as such) affect an album rating?? Well, let's try to be fair; from a protective perspective, a bonus track can break the main feel of the album, so you could say: "No! Bonus tracks should not affect the rating of an album!" but... what if that bonus track enhances the main feel of the album?? Do we stick to the bonus-tracks-don't-affect-rating policy???

 

All in all, I agree with Firepuck that an album is an experience, therefore when you rate an album, you rate the experience you had; and in the end ratings are subjective; ratings are not to determine wether you like or not an album, you just use other people's ratings as a reference, and with time, you get to know the way certain reviewers think and so you can give yourself a better idea what they are talking about.

 

Take care, everybody.

 

lotsa common sense there!! And I agree with most of it.

but bonus tracks do affect your enjoyment of an album , especially if (as you say, but I will translate it)  it sticks out like a sore thumb

 

 

Welcome to the Archives BTW

 

 

 

 

Edited by SD

 

Totally disagree. I love that song and I think it goes very well in the album. Imagine that after The musical box, return of the giant hogweeg begin....I think something would miss....

 

you know my brother and I listin to the album in the car and both agreed that Are you ready Eddy? was the best case of a filler ever used that we could think of

Mike, first off I visit your site regularily and find it well laid out and informative. I will certainly end up joining sooner or later (it took me over a year of navagating this site before I became a member so give me time). I like the format of rating each song independently, great value in that when exploring new groups (I mean groups I haven't really listened to before). Kudo's to you for taking the time on this site and your site to help make them as good as they are.

 

But in this I strongly disagree with you. I will always think that the album should be rated as a whole. Outakes, fillers, everything. There are many albums I like and play often that have songs that I don't find all that good. Does this make the album less worthy of a high rating? - ABSOLUTELY

 

To me there are few albums that are strong from start to finish and these are the real jewels of progressive rock.

 

Mind you, this is just my opinion. With respect to Terria you can rate it however you see fit.

 

For example:

 

GENESIS — Archive - Volume 1: 1967-1975

 

While I would highly recommend this box set to any early Genesis fan I would never give this a 5 star rating because of CD4. CD's 1, 2 and 3 however are gorgeous.

 

IMHO...

 

Acquiring the Taste on Acquiring the Taste

 

Sentimental Institution on Defector

 

Ring on Circus (by Argent)

 

 

 

I will only enforce this on my website, and also only with very few albums where it makes sense:

 

- the track must be an obvious outtake/bonus 

- the playtime must be longer than 50 minutes without the track

 

People can still rate the track, but it will not be used to compute the album average.

 

I could simply mark these tracks as "bonus", as simple as that.

 

But I will not do that for the Tool album, the tracks don't meet the criteria that I posted above.

 

Candidates for what I mean are:

 

- Devin Townsend - Terria - "Outtake"

- The Flower Kings - Flower Power - "IKEA by Night"

 

Can't really think of any other albums right now.

 

"Providence" from "Red" - half of you will probably agree with this, half think its a genius improv.

 

Somewhat more contentious - there are several tracks (IMHO) on "Starless & BB" not worth the candle. The band couldnt be a**ed to clean up & finish "The Mincer" - very lazy - & the tracks "The Great Deceiver", "We'll let you know" & "S&BB" itself all need polishing. Could have been a great album, with more work.

 

And "Thrak" - what the f++k is "Radio I", "Radio II", "Inner Garden I" & "Inner Garden II" all about? If theyre not filler I'll eat my entire CD collection. They're not even worthy of being bonus tracks on the "Robert Fripp - scraping the barrel - worst of the outtakes" CD (volume 6).

 

Boy do we progheads have to eat some crap with our caviar....

 In my opinion filler is used too readily. A band may make a piece that seems musically less inspired for other reasons than just to fill up space.

For example

 For Absent Friends contrasts between two epic tracks.

Silent sorrow in Empty Boats has atmospherics.

Are you ready Eddy ? leaves a light feeling after a heavy album. I like this track and think it finished  nicely an outstanding album

The Clap showcases an individual's talents in between the more soild group effort. Listening to several talented people performing at once can be tiring.

 

I'm not sure the ideal 40 minute album would contain several talented musicians playing complex pieces with exquisite melodies in epic tracks.

 

For that reason I prefer albums like Fragile to albums like Tales from Topographic Ocean . The latter is a hard listen.

 

 

About the debate of Lamb lies down which is overlong (a debate regularly coming back on the forum) , the real material is almost three sides of vinyl, but not material enough to market, therefore time must be found >> this debate is not a figment of my imagination either

 

Lamb Lies Down

 

Disc 1 time: 45:34
1. The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (4:50) >> debatable but useless intro >> overlong, simple partly a filler >< second choice material anyway
2. Fly on a Windshield (4:23)>> core material
3. Broadway Melody of 1974 (0:33) >> Core Material
4. Cuckoo Cocoon (2:11)>> core material
5. In the Cage (8:15) >> central piece of first disc
6. The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (2:45) >> core material
7. Back in N.Y.C. (5:42) >> weaker  but still quite central >> second choice material
8. Hairless Heart (2:13) >> core material
9. Counting Out Time (3:42) >> core material
10. The Carpet Crawlers (5:15) >> even if commercial >> core material
11. The Chamber of 32 Doors (5:40) >> core material

Disc 2 time: 48:49
1. Lillywhite Lilith (2:42)>> weaker >> second choice material
2. The Waiting Room (5:24)  >> debatable but I think a filler , but a good one
3. Anyway (3:07)>> core material
4. The Supernatural Anaesthetist (2:59) >> filler >> allows Gabriel to get into his suit
5. The Lamia (6:57) >> core material >> central piece of disc 2
6. Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (3:07) >> filler >> allows Gabriel to get out of his suit
7. Colony of Slippermen (8:13) >> core material >> second central piece of disc 2
8. Ravine (2:04) >> second choice material >> not far from a filler
9. The Light Dies Down on Broadway (3:32)  >> logical outro , the story should end here but clearly the cojncept needed further chapters 
10. Riding the Scree (3:57) >> Filler >> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
11. In the Rapids (2:26)>> filler >> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
12. It. (4:15) >> filler>> not really that much of a filler, but it has the feel because it is too long and is more of second choice material
 

Total Time 94:23 >> keeping the green tracks would've made one single almost perfect album

 

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Seamus is almso an excellent of a filler track

On the other hand, TFK is filling abums with fillers