If so, The Nice must have recorded a fullblown prog album before King Crimson's "In the Court..." which they never did! Their albums clearly show that the concept of symphonic rock was not implemented, otherwise at least one of their albums would have been pure prog as is the case of "In the Court...". Admittedly, they had many individual tracks that would be categorized as prog but never a full album. I would say that less than 50% of the material on each of their albums would be characterized as prog. Their last proper album "Five Bridges" was released after "In the Court..." but not even that is pure prog and about half of that music wasn't even written by themselves!.

 

How can The Nice possibly be symphonic prog and not proto-prog?

 

Proto-prog was created with The Nice in mind, their early two albums are more psych than prog  given the short tracks) but proto-prog turned out a bit differently than originally foreseen

 

 

Snow Dog, dare you say which of their albums you consider to be symphonic prog? As I stated earlier, many of their tunes are symphonic prog in my book also, but the majority are not symphonic prog. I don't know how high a percentage of the album needs to be symphonic prog before I would consider the album to be symphonic prog but at least 50%. The Nice does not reach that percentage.

 

Their music does not indicate to me that they at any time deliberately set out to make a symphonic prog album. That concept remains to have been first employed by King Crimson - as I see it.

 

What about Ars Longa Vita Brevis? A 20 minute orchestra-backed multi-part suite using classical themes on side 2 and the 8-9 minute classical adaptation Karelia Suite on side one. I make that about 75% of the album could be classed as "symphonic prog".

 

If King Crimson hadn't applied the symphonic prog concept to an entire album, you could speculate that The Nice sooner or later probably would have made a fully symphonc prog album, but that's not how history went.

 

I won't accept "Ars..." as the first symphonic prog album - that title goes to "In the Court..."

 
It's very difficult to make definitive statements as lots of bands were being influenced by each other in the late 60s.

 

But I will say that if 50% is the criterion to be a symphonic prog album, then Ars Longa passes your test!

 

You can't have one discussion without the other because you used ITCOTCK as the starting point. 

 

 

 

 

By moving The Nice from proto to symphonic prog, PA is effectively saying that The Nice made the first pure prog album. In theory, The Nice could have been a symphonic prog band had "Five Bridges" - being released after In the Court - been 100% symphonic prog as opposed to its predecessors but it isn't. Five Bridges is no more symphonic prog than Ars or their selftitled album.

 

It opens up for other proto-prog bands being shifted to symphonic prog such as Vanilla Fudge - even their 1967 debut which - as I remember - does nort even have a single selfwritten track.

 

full true

 

I'm not at all nervous that The Nice and not King Crimson released the first "near-full-blown" symphonic prog album. I'm just not convinced (yet) that they did. If they did, I suppose "Ars longa..." is the benchmark album future discussions should relate to.

 

The interviews in the recently issued Isle of Wight DVD suggest that it wasn't until the beginning of ELP that Emerson et al. had a clear concept of what they wanted to do. This lack of "symphonic" concept in the music of the Nice is what bothers me and shows they were still proto-prog - they were not a fully developed symphonic prog act. It occurs to me that it required an "intellectual" like Fripp to converge and organize all the ideas that were floating around in the proto-prog scene to come up with a clear concept which shone through on ITCOTCK.

 

Because The Nice are similar to ELP you therefore infer that The Nice is symphonic prog. But there is (at least) one important difference in the two bands: The Nice - like all other proto-prog bands -incorporated mainly american influences like blues and jazz (and Dylan, not the least), while ELP deliberately adapted European music like classical and folk music. Thus, ELP took everything a step further and had a clear concept about their music.

 

The only thing that can convince me that The Nice is a symphonic prog band is that they ended up making a full-blown or "very-near-full-blown" symphonic prog album. PA's definition of proto-prog bands is not clear on this matter as The Nice obviously was in existence prior to 1969 (why this year BTW) and influenced the development of progressive rock. "Five Bridges" is clearly more symphonic than any other The Nice album but continues to be flawed by spychedelia (One of those People), non-self-written music (somewhat lack of originality), incoherency (no clear genre, partial use of orchestra - NO CONCEPT) and less technically skilled musicians (Jackson is lacking in the bass and singing departments). But this is as symphonic and prog it got.

 

I Talk To The Wind isn't symphonic prog either.That leaves only 2 tracks! Conclusiion: Ars Longa Vita Brevis is more symphonic prog than In The Court.However ITCOTCK is still much better.(but thats not what we are talking about)

With all my love to King crimson I never thought they were the first (I do agree that prog was different after ITCOTCK but not cause it's their best work (it's not, IMO) and not cause it's the first symphonic album).

I do'nt know if Micky said it befor me or after but I also claimed months ago that the nice is not proto prog but fully prog band (and personally I'm glad it was changed - good work Snow dog !).

However I find the argue about "Ars longa vita brevis" or ITCOTCK as the first symphonic prog album redicilious cause for me "Days of future passed" of the moody blues is that album and I think that just like the nice, the moodies are fully prog (yeh, an early one) . Again, It is not their best work IMO but this (I believe) is the album we can concider as the start of it all.