High Tide - Prog Rock or Prog Metal?
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Topic: High Tide - Prog Rock or Prog Metal?
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: High Tide - Prog Rock or Prog Metal?
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 03:06
Simple question, simple answers. I voted "Prog Rock" ... High Tide are not at all related to metal IMHO, not even as a "Proto" band. Edit: I added the "Proto" - genres to the options. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to: 
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 03:39
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I think they are metal in the same way as I think Black Sabbath is. But
I'll admit I would never say: You should listen to High Tide, its
Prog-Metal. Then again, I would never say that about anything. Not even
Opeth.
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 03:47
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None, not Prog Rock, not Proto Prog, maybe Proto Metal.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: MattiR
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:50
Maybe Proto Metal (music similar to Black Sabbath), maybe rather first prog metal band? Who knows? |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 06:56
I deliberately added no "Other/None" choice ... I want to force people to choose a side. Either you think High Tide are more Rock, or more Metal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Clark Ashton
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 07:55
| I voted rock. There's no doubting they're prog. |
Posted By: Open-Mind
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 09:10
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Prog Rock / Proto-Prog-Rock
------------- "I'm on a roll, I'm on a roll this time, I feel my luck could change.. " |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 09:57
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let me put it like this: High Tide are prog metal as it should be.
unfortunately that has not much to do do with prog metal as it is
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 10:00
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^ ok, so you're saying that High Tide are what Prog Metal SHOULD be like - but High Tide are not Prog Metal as it is commonly defined? That would make much sense to me. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: July 21 2006 at 10:22
yes, exactly ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 15:37
| I don't really think HT are Prog-Metal, so I voted for the first option. They're definitely prog (sorry, Ivan), heavily influenced by psychedelia, and with a very hard, distorted guitar sound - but metal? Not really, especially their second, self-titled album, which is more sophisticated than the first. Great albums though, both of them - "Death Warmed Up" is one of my favourite instrumentals of all times. |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 17:23
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Actually it is not that simple. I voted for prog-rock (nothing "proto" in there - truly progressive band). But I would agree with BaldJean - this is what prog-metal should be. But as per current sub-genres status and definitions it is definitely prog-rock. Their guitar/vilolin counterparts are amazing, by the way. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 18:23
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This may sound very strange to you, but when I think of High Tide and
Prog Metal I am reminded of a triassic family of reptiles named
phytosaurs and of crocodiles. The phytosaurs were semik-aquatic
creatures, liike the crocodiles, and looked a lot like them; a typical
example of convergent evolution. The problem of not getting water into
the lungs when diving was solved in a completely different and much
more elegant way by the Phytosaurs: The oesophagus and the trachea were
completely seperated from each other in their anatomy. Crocodiles have
their nostrils at the tip of their snouts; when underwater they just
close them. The phytosaurs lived in the triassic period, the crocodiles
appeared in the jurassic period, when the Phytosaurs already were
extinct. The phytosaurs varied in length as much as the crocodiles; the
biggest were almost as big as the biggest crocodile ever found (12m is
the longest known one; a few years ago the skeleton of a 15m crocodile
was discovered, but maybe a similar discovery of a very large
phytosaurus will occur some day in the future). Well, High Tide are like the phytosaurs. Musically more advanced than the crocodiles of Prog Metal of today, just like the breathing system of the phytosaurs was more advanced than that of the crocodiles, and yet extinct today. Ok, this may be a strange and somewhat stretched comparison, but is is what I have to think of when being reminded of High Tide. Call me nuts! -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: glass house
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 18:33
BaldFriede, no one would dare to call you nuts! Phytosaur : 
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 19:18
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Bravo, Friede! Very interesting zoological parallel. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 25 2006 at 22:20
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The name "Phytosaur", by the way, literally means "plant reptile" and
stems from the false believe of the palaentologists that named it that
it was a plant eating animal. I don't know what they have been smoking,
but does an animal that looks like this strike you as "plant eating"?
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 01:19
I certainly don't call you nuts, but I strongly disagree with that bit about High Tide being musically "More advanced" than Prog Metal. Of course there are many PM bands which are not very advanced - maybe even simplistic. But it's a big genre with hundreds of bands, and some of them are just as musically challenging as the "true" prog rock bands. BTW: You seem to have a strange fixation on counterpoint and polyphony ... I don't have a problem with that, but the lack of those two elements in a piece of music doesn't mean that the musicians aren't capable of it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 03:14
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You carry my anology too far, Mike; I did not mean to say that. Perhaps
I should have mentioned that, just as the breathing system of the
phytosaurs was more advanced than that of the crocodiles, the legs of
the crocodiiles were more advanced than the legs of the phytosaurs, and
most probably their circuit too (crocodiles have the most advanced
circuit of all reptiles today), though we can't know the latter one for
sure, since soft tissue is very rarely conserved over the ages, and we
usually only find the bones.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 06:20
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Wait, so why should Prog-Metal be like High Tide? I get it not.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 07:33
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I can only speak on my own behalf. When I try to listen to some of the
big prog metal names, or if I stream some of the lesser known ones
here, a lot of the times I wish more of them took inspiration for
making hard, complex metal elsewhere. Often the vocalist ruins the whole thing for me with either the traditional metal falsetto voice (Dream Theater, Psychotic Waltz...). Then its the general sound, and the kitschy quasi classical keyboards fanfares. Quite often the lyrics and concepts are so pompous its embarrassing. Infact everything we tend to call cheesy is very present in this genre. I wish that the combined inspiration taken from it seems Iron Maiden, Queensryche, Metallica, Rush, (and ELP, Yes of the classic bands) etc... was less dominant. I have no problem with extreme aggression, speed, growling, all things considered typical for metal. But I do wish more bands developed an alternative path for how prog-metal sounds, and it would be great if more bands took inspiration from forexample High Tide. I like and even love some of the new, harder prog. But I understand (my own, and) other people's problems/frustration with parts of the established progmetal sound. And the troubles thinking they're sound or attitude is very 'prog' or 'progressive'. And again, I think High Tide can be considered progmetal, even if the new bands doesn't sound like them. Not many progressive electronic bands or artists would namecheck (or sound like) Franco Battiato's early seventies recordings as a big influence either, but that's still the most correct genre for his albums from that time. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 07:47
Because prog-metal as it is now (well, most of it) is pathetic.
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 07:50
 It may seem pathietic to you ... but only if you expect it to be something which it never claimed to be.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 08:14
Like progressive? ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:11
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Now you're being pathetic. There are enough PM albums which are progressive beyond any discussion. We can argue about whether *on average* PM is less progressive than 70s Prog Rock though. But then again most "metalheads" wouldn't deny that. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:28
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This time I was actually trying to be a little humorous, Mike.
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:35
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^ you're always so dead serious ... give us an emoticon next time!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:36
Because High Tide had a certain quality I miss within most of Prog Metal (with the odd exception). It is hard to put into words what it is; the best I can come up with is a certain "dirtiness" of High Tide, which I miss in most prog metal acts. They are heavy, yes, but somehow squeaky clean. There is a German expression, "die Sau rauslassen", "letting the sow out". High Tide could do that, most of prog metal can't, in my opinion, however hard they may be. It is strangely lifeless and sterile. As I said, there are exceptions, but not many. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:39
That's how you interpret me. I don't like using these guys at all   . Have to start writing ha-ha-ha all the time, I guess.------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 09:42
Maybe you would like the Hammers of Fortune ... you should give them a try. I think there are some samples on their homepage (you find them in the websites list on my homepage). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 10:55
I have never understood where you draw your conclusions from; most of the Prog-Metal I listen to is as emotionally powerful and engaging as nothing I have ever heard, and I have now completely resorted my reviewing time to my favourite artists(which is why I was made a Prog Reviewer, I guess), instead of offering just another opinion on oftenly covered, "famous" artists and prog greats.
Neither do I really understand what you mean by the "dirtiness of sound", as the albums you mentioned in this and your previous post didn't strike as something particularly "dirty".
That's like saying Led Zeppelin is Death Metal, because I think most Death Metal is pathetic, and I'd rather those "funny bands" sound like Zep. Even if one means "quality", "quality" is not measured by a number, and is just a matter of taste, experience, comprehension, as well as mere like/dislike.
Shhhhhhhhure, it'd be a great progress if all Prog-Metal bands decided to shut up, round up in a circle and sound like High Tide while holding hands together.
-- Ivan ------------- sig |
It may seem pathietic to you ... but only if you expect it to be something which it never claimed to be.
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 12:24
I didn't say anything about emotions, I said something about cleanliness. Although very hard, prog metal is vary rarely really dissonant; why, even the distorted guitars don't sound distorted anymore (which is probably due to over-production of albums). That's what I mean when I talk about "clean". Although I still am not satisfied with my words; somehow I can't convey how I feel about it. And no, I don't expect prog metal bands to sound like High Tide. But I certainly wish them to be more daring. Playing hard and fast is not daring, in my opinion. By the way, my posts are rarely about the standard artists either. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 26 2006 at 12:43
With all due respect, I have stopped expecting anything from this sub-genre for quite a while now. But same does not prevent me from listening to some of new recommended metal acts. This is probably because there is some hidden hope deep inside that I shall suddenly find something interesting. The freshest example - yesterday I was given "For the love of art.... " by Beyond Twilight, the album highly spoken about by all prog-metal-heads I know. After having listened to it, I was thinking how to better describe this album - and "pathetic" is the right word for it, I think.
From the other hand I have discovered one very interesting band recently - "Secret Chiefs 3" and I liked their album called "Book of Horizons", then I learned that the band is under "Prog-metal" label here in PA. But this means incorrect positionning of the band IMO rather than that I love metal again.
Oh, and I did not get this Led Zeppelin/death metal associations given by Ivan, thus can't reply/comment it.
------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: ANDREW
Date Posted: July 27 2006 at 11:49
| Prog Rock / Proto-Prog-Rock |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: July 27 2006 at 12:32
I also think that Secret Chiefs 3 are not a prog metal band ... but you have to admit that Book of Horizons has some pretty heavy Death Metal like parts. BTW: Why didn't you read the Beyond Twilight reviews? They describe the album pretty accurately, and it should be obvious that their latest album contains some of the trademarks which often annoy "non metalheads". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Mike" rel="nofollow">Recently listened to:
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Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: July 27 2006 at 12:52
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Of course, I agree - it's pretty obvious, but this minor use of death metal features does not make album or band "metal" - but we are in agreement on this point, anyway.
I am normally reading reviews when I am thinking about buying a particular album and want to know what other people think of it. In this particular case I was just given it to listen, and...yeah...right...what else could I expect...pathetic...does not matter what reviews say...leave it to those able to enjoy...not for me though..etc etc etc...
But, wait a minute, what we are talking here about? Yeah, High Tide!
I wish prog-metal follow and develop the direction HighTide initiated, but...life is life and metal is metal.  ------------- carefulwiththataxe |