Do you think John Bonham is overrated?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30071
Printed Date: April 29 2024 at 04:01
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Do you think John Bonham is overrated?
Posted By: Sasquamo
Subject: Do you think John Bonham is overrated?
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:44
|
Seriously, I think John Bonham is a wildly overrated drummer. I really don't think he's that great.
Anyway, this is the main reason I don't like John Bonham's drumming: I think it's boring. He often plays the same simple beats over and over again with little or (more often) no variation. He seems to use one of the most simple rock beats ever (1 and 3 on bass drum, 2 and 4 on snare, eighth notes on hi-hat) a lot in the music. Also, he doesn't seem to care about the phrasing of the music. At the end of phrases, he often just plays time, when the music screams for a fill to fill in the empty space. He doesn't play many fills at all. I also find that his fills are often boring, which isn't helped when he plays the exact same fill again in the song. When I listen to him drumming I often get the impression that he his playing off of a chart.
|
Replies:
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:48
|
No. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:48
| Since you mentioned to make it a personal vendetta to keep Led Zep out of Prog Archives I don't take you serious. What's next: Jimmy Page is an average guitar player ...? |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:50
Overrated?! NO way. He is one of my favourite drummers, listen to any live albums - BBC Sessions, The Song Remains the Same and obviously to all ZEP albums. WILDLY overrated?!
 boy you've got me confused! |
Sasquamo wrote:Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:51
|
He's perfect for the band he was in and has an amazing powerful sound that I really dig. -------------  
|
Posted By: WaywardSon
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:54
|
I would say that he was good, but IMHO there were a lot of better rock drummers in the seventies.
Ian Paice, Brian Downey and Cozy Powell spring to mind.
|
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 16:56
| He's definitely overrated. He sure was good, but there are many far superior drummers. |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 17:09
You start a thread saying a (mostly) beloved drummer is widly overrated and can't be bothered to say why??? -------------  |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 17:11
Now that he can see some opposition, he will probably answer. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 17:11
| I think this thread is a waste of time. I don't feel like saying why. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:04
| He's not the most technically gifted (Ian Paice is far better) but he just has a sound that nobody else has ever matched. Just listen to "When The Levee Breaks" or "In My Time of Dying" - and the two mighty tom tom hits at the end of "Custard Pie". Awesome. |
Posted By: Cygnus X-2
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:05
He was terribly sloppy live.  ------------- 
|
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:11
That was a joke. It didn't sound serious to me when I wrote it.
|
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:22
OK and now for something completely different, being serious...no jokes 
If you listen to the excellent two DVD by Led Zeppelin, especially DVD2, you can notice how both powerful as inventive John Bonham drums, the interplay with the other musicians is great and his drum work features lots of variation. In my opinion he has a very unique style and he is one of the great drummers of all times, not the best but still at a very high level. And he is not overrated, not in the press!
|
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:25
jimmy page is an average guitar player, and far below average in comparison to what I listen to mostly. has a few great songs he wrote and a myriad of average songs, combined with the fact that as Cygnus said, he was compeltely awful live As for bonham, no, he's not great like Buddy Rich or anything, but hes far better than Ringo Starr, who i've never liked and always thought he detracted from The Beatles sound ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:31
This thread prooves that discussing musicians is a matter of taste and very subjective because for me Jimmy Page is a guitar god, from his great electric work on the Danelectro guitar and the Gibson Les Paul and Gibson twin-neck to the excellent acoustic workon his Martin guitar like Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, awesome  But I agree that his live performances were a bit sloppy, especially when he was numbed by drugs and alcohol 
|
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:35
 "Overrated" is a dumb, irritating, over-used word -- and I don't have to tell you why.------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:42
explanations are over-rated....  |
Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 18:46
|
overrating is overrated... I agree with the author. Must say that. He was good with John-Paul Jones, alone, don't know, didn't live back then, but what I've heard, I wouldn't ask for much more. People tend to blindly think the band the like the most has the best players. Well, THe fact is that a studio musician is often better than someone in a band even though his job is to play beat through the whole song. That's a skill too. In fact some find it harder to play the same all the time than keep up variating. The reason why I dislike Mike Portnoy for instance. About Jimmy Page. He sure wasn't the best, but boy could he make awesome riffs. That he could do, can even... |
Posted By: enigma
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:00
  In My Time of Dying is probably my favourite Led Zep track. To me it encapsulates in it's epic length the true definition of the word 'band'. It also happens to be my favourite slice of Bonzo. With Bonham, it is not just the great fills and 'late' beats, but also the ...timing, the gaps he leaves, what he doesn't play. Robert Plant described him as a 'thrifty drummer' and I have to agree. He was no Peart, Herb or Carey, but that does not make him any worse for it. He was in a band which was full of chemistry and somehow was worth more than the sum of its parts (and pretty mighty parts the 4 of them were). |
Posted By: blindtoad
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:01
|
Bonham wasn't the best drummer or even in the best but, nobody can sound like him... he was a great musician because et got is sound! I think this is the most important think to separate greats and worst musician... pat Metheny is not "technically" better than "Herman Lee" but when you listen a guitar solo from pat metheny you can't say... ErKKkK... it'S juste sounds GREAT but when you listen to Herman Lee your like on a boat in the atlantic sea... going up and down.... so... (after this little explanation) john Bonham wasn't a great "technical" or the best "never playing at the same BPM and the same time signature" drummer but he got a Great sound... and it's why he's one of the best rock(excluding prog) drummer but don't put banana with apple... it's like compare styx pianist with rick wakeman... ------------- quelqu'un pour un jam? blindtoad = Poor english... |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:45
But people seem to think he was, hence the term "overrated."
|
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:46
Bonzo wasn't known for his technical complexity.What made him special was his power. ------------- |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:53
| I can hit drums hard as well |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: October 19 2006 at 20:01
If you don't like him you don't like him.I am not trying to change your opinion.I don't really care what you think about him. And you can hit drums hard too..good for you.But you don't have the career he did,and aren't considered a legend,like Bonham is. ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 00:33
|
It is inaccurate to consider John Bonham technically inferior, he was in fact just the opposite and like a great actor, didn't always show you that. Which brings me to my next point; Bonzo's greatness lay not just in his amazing chops and huge innovations, he was also *vital* to Zep's sound. Page and Plant tended to play high and thin in their attack, so with Bonham (and Jones) to provide bottom end ballast they were able to complete their sound and brought true 'bigness' to rock in a way no one else had. But the author doesn't like the band so why debate this at all? And to say that he always played the same thing shows ignorance of his work; 'Achilles' Last Stand', 'How Many More Times', 'Poor Tom', 'Night Flight', on and on... |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 02:16
| Yes. (+ he was too keen of drinking, killed himself! with it) |
Posted By: enigma
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 02:58
I understand your argument, on a pure 'technical/odd time signature' rating, there are better drummers. My point (admittidly not very clearly made) was that he had a different style to those guys, which doesn't make him any worse, just less flashy but just as thrilling and effective. In the band context he integrated very well and the fact that they realised they could not replace him, must say something about his input and worth. He had a style and sound all of his own. This does not prove anything, but is an interesting link:- http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_drummers.html |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:10
| It is sad that JB must be defended, though nice to see that he is being stuck up for. The assumption seems to be that he would not have been able to 'keep up' with drummers who were doing more complex things, but this is quite false. In fact, if you were to ask Bruford, Bozzio, Peart or Portnoy what they think of him, I suspect it would be kudos all around, |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:24
|
definitely NOT "overrated"......John Bonham's influence on all rock music is incalculable - technically, artistically and personally, he inspired many drummers, had his own distinctive style. i've seen him play live and he was amazing - after he tragically died his involvement in Zeppelin was so huge the group couldn't continue in the same way without him - how many other bands could this apply to? John was absolutely essential to the group, like Keith Moon was to The Who.
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
|
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:28
of course many rock musicians have drink like the rest of us, John suffered terribly from nerves before a big tour, and tried to relieve this with drink, unfortunately the dangers of falling asleep drunk were well documented after the death of Jimi Hendrix, who suffered the same fate. ------------- Prog Archives Tour Van
|
Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:32
Hudddd 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:48
He *was* amazing live. In fact he was the best and tightest member of that band and though by 1978 JPJ became the on stage coordinator, Bonzo was the rock, live or otherwise. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 03:53
A really idiot habit. Besides nothing irritates me more than literally stinking drunkards being not able to keep their mouth shut.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 04:00
| Is that suppose to be a little joke? |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 04:57
You mean my attitude towards drunkards? Definetelly not.
|
Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 05:13
so stupid to say that |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 05:32
|
We have to watch out that we don't end this topic as John Bonham: only busy with alcohol
|
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 07:58
It's almost an unwritten law that you have to like John Bonham. Look what happened here when I said I didn't!
|
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 08:10
|
you didn't say you don't like him, you said he's overrated. that's different. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:07
| Let me just point out that Peart is somewhat overrated aswell. There are better drummers. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:13
I think Peart is overrated a bit as well, but I also think he actually deserves it.
|
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:16
It's good to see someone on this site who agrees with me on this matter. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 16:29
| Rush is still my favorite band and Neil Peart my favorite drummer though, the only reason I think he's a little overrated is that some people say he's the greatest drummer of all time, which just isn't true, as there are more skilled drummers in rock even (just a tiny bit better though). |
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 21:21
|
Bonham was certainly not the most imaginative drummer in the world, but he was a rock-steady timekeeper. He kept Zeppelin's sound anchored.
------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 23:19
| Actually, I've been watching some Moby Dick videos, and I'm actually kind of impressed. The solo was a bit sloppy, and his speed is impressive (although he was flailing around hitting random drums to some extent, not very musical). However, I'm actually impressed with his skill. I would never know it though if all I did was listen to Led Zeppelin records, though. I wish he could have used the skill he obviously had. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 23:25
|
Bonham was good, but for whatever reason, he often sounded a bit sleepy. For a true test of his talents, I like D'yre M'aker (or wherever the 's go). BUT...Keith Moon's better. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: October 20 2006 at 23:37
|
I think its interesting just as a side note: I'm not particularly a fan of either band, but it seems when a band like Led Zep is criticized, people almost feel personally insulted. However when JLB's singing is criticized, the DT fans are supposed to just take it as a joke and move on. Just interesting to see how the perceptions of the band really impact how the criticism is viewed. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: R o V e R
Date Posted: October 21 2006 at 04:58
this thread is not going anywhere 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 14:45
| Well R o V e R, for what ever reason they have not done so, and I will (as you have) continue to defend the man and his absolutely deserved legend. There was nothing sloppy or sleepy about him. Better *rock* drummers? Is the author deaf or just inexperienced?" Which drummers in straight *rock* (not Bruford, Bozzio, Peart, Portnoy, etc. etc.), other than maybe Moon, were better? |
Posted By: willy
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 14:56
|
Moby Dick is overrated. Bonzo's playing isnt. Moby Dick is generally the same thing over and over and is relatively bland. However Bonham himself was a great drummer and his abilities are not overrated. He has mad innovative grooves, and contributed the entire foundation and soul to one of the most popular rock bands ever. He contimues to be an influence to drummers everywhere. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 15:38
| Yes, 'Moby Dick' is a little over-hyped and not my favorite. As you point out, it was his contribution to Zep's music that was so marvelous. Bonham's brilliance was that he made the drums a true equal to the guitar and voice which, at that time, were what people tended to focus on. |
Posted By: Hacketeer
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 18:25
|
I am not a fan of Zep, so, my judgement may be biased. Bonham, as a non-prog, hard rock drummer, is not in the same league as Paice, Powell, Moon (although Keith was unique - who else drummed with the singer, not the bass player?) or even Bill Ward (is he under-rated?).
Yes, it's all opinion, why, I've seen people on this forum defend utter toss like "We Can't Dance"!
Would whoever is making a tidy living from Bonzo's royalties really give a sh*t what any of us think? ------------- "Just keep me nose clean, egg, chips & beans, I'm always full of steam" |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 18:37
|
<<BUT...Keith Moon's better.>> Now, this guy is overrated, in my opinion. Never understood what the big deal was with him. Very sloppy drummer. E ------------- 
|
Posted By: willy
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:16
Sloppy and a notorious lack of technique. While I enjoy a bit of his work, I dont think Moonie was all he's been cracked up to be. -------------
|
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:20
I love mooney. He way have been sloppy, but he was entertaining and served the song perfectly. One of my favorite drummers. -------------
|
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:32
 Bonzo was the guy that every 70s rock drummer looked up to. You cant pick up a drum magazine without seeing his name cited as an influence in an interview.. |
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:34
| Isn't Bonham that guy who drowned in his own vomit? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:38
No,he choked on someone else's vomit....
|
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:39
 |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 19:43
|
You've never seen Spinal Tap? Marty: "And what happened to Stumpy Joe?" Derek Smalls: "Well, it's not a very pleasant story, but uh..." David: "He's passed on." Derek: "He died-- He choked on-- The ac-- The official explaination was, he choked on vomit. He past away." Nigel: "It was actually someone else's vomit." David: "It was ugly." Nigel: "You know, there's no real..." Derek: "Well, they can't prove whose vomit it was. They never-- They don't have facilities in Scotland Yard to..." Nigel: "You can't really dust for vomit." |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:26
Is this silly thread still extant?
Where is Bonham being "rated," anyway?
Actually, I'm no drummer, but I really couldn't care less how you, he, she, they or anyone else "rates" the late great John Bonham. Led Zeppelin will always be one of my favourite 70s bands, and Bonzo will always be their drummer: thundering away behind the kit, perfectly suited to the music, and sounding just as he should sound -- a vital, powerful component of a terrific, hard-rocking band.
 I'm listening to Zep now, and I love it! The drums sound just fine, to me.
 Respect where it's due.  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: tardis
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:28
|
Go Zep!
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 20:45
I recently had a bizarre gardening accident. BTW- 'Stonehenge' is pure prog |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 22:03
|
A new law for the Prog Archives country: Freedom of Speech is allowed, but with the exception of publicly critisizing John Bonham or Led Zeppelin, which is considered a capital offense.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 22:30
|
Hardly a capital offense, you just have to take the bad with the good. If I came on and said I don't like Jimi Hendrix or David Bowie I'd probably get a similar bunch of responses. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:02
Don't be silly, or overly dramatic. No one is stopping you from writing what you want to about Bonham, are they?
I suppose my recent post provoked that wounded whine, did it?
Look, Zeppelin are a HUGE, well loved & respected band in the history of rock. You should darned well expect to encounter some indignation when you take them on. Don't ask the question, if you can't take passionate opinions counter to your own! ("Freedom of speech" goes both ways.)
If you really want to know if Bonham was technically sub-standard, or less than good at his job, you need to get the opinions of those who worked with him.
To me, John Bonham (and each of his bandmates as well) was no "god" or anything, but a man (now, sadly, deceased) who happened to be a rock and roll drummer in one of the most important, successful bands in rock history. I think he did his job well, but I don't go around saying he was the "best," or constantly holding one rock musician up to another in some subjective, artificial "competition." I like him just as much as I think and say I do -- is that "overrated?" Where are these supposedly inflated ratings of Bonham that trouble you, anyway?
(I have a lot of trouble with the term "overrated.")
Anyway, it's only rock and roll (these guys are not classically trained, on the whole), but I like it! Bonham played with a lot of heart, and seemed to know how to handle his chosen instrument. (I think that's generally true of most professional musicians. Rock and roll is about feeling, attitude, a beat, hooks, heart -- if I want only amazing, virtuoso technical ability, I'll stick to classical and jazz. I don't expect everyone whom I enjoy in rock to always "blow me away" with blinding speed, incomprehensible rhythms or seemingly inhuman feats.
Most times, for me anyway, quite good is good enough. Once someone attains a certain professional level of expertise on their instrument, I really don't care who is a little "better" or faster than who. I either enjoy the music, or I don't.
Perhaps you just don't really enjoy Zep, and maybe even resent their popularity a tad.
I don't like the modern metal music of Dream Theater, and they are more successful on this prog forum than I perhaps might wish, but I certainly don't doubt their abilities to use their instruments to the levels that their fans expect, and their music demands. From what I've read here, they're all technically very good musicians. I have no reason to doubt that, nor have I ever questioned their abilities. They may even be really nice & intelligent people too, but that's irrelevant to me when forming an opinion of their songs.
Again: it's only rock and roll -- but I like it, like it, yes I do!
 ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:23
|
Just found this on a Peter Erskine (respected jazz drummer -- Weather Report, Steps Ahead, etc) forum. A fan had asked Erskine what he thought of Bonham as a drummer. Erskine responded:
http://www.petererskine.com/discus/messages/23/235.html?1133540199#MT">
 http://www.petererskine.com/discus/messages/23/235.html?1133540199#POST508"> http://www.petererskine.com/discus/messages/23/235.html?1133540199#POST532"> http://www.petererskine.com/discus/messages/23/235.html?1133540199#MB"> http://petererskine.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=23&post=509#POST509"> By mailto:[email protected] - Peter Erskine on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:26 am: http://petererskine.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=editpost&postid=509&page=23/235 - Edit Post
Francesco, **************************************************************
Bonham is well respected on this drumming site, as well: http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/John_Bonham.html - http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/John_Bonham.html
His bandmates thought he was great, it seems. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: October 22 2006 at 23:23
|
i think whats going on here is Bonham's talent is being judged on the studio albums. this problem is very similar to Nick Mason, both of whom i feel played much better and tighter live than in the studio. hell, Mason ripped up the set live, especially pre-DSOTM. as did Bonham ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 00:00
| But that's O.K. because I feel his studio playing presents his clearest and most polished efforts. When Zep was firing on all engines they were incredible but if just one member was having a bad night the music suffered. Consequently, Bonham was often left holding the musical bag *and* still had to be time keeper which must have been draining. Bonzo could often recreate his studio feats but it is on the albums that you get to hear his amazing, unique style most effortlessly. |
Posted By: Faaip_De_Oiad
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 02:08
|
I often found most the songs kinda boring. and like he could do much better. Not saying all. just. not all his potential most the time. Atleast judgeing by moby Dick anyway -------------  |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 06:44
|
i have a theory on "moby dick". when i went from listening to the first album to listening to the second, i read some reviews concerning the poor musical performance on moby dick (stuff like "hey rock's not jazz, he'd better keep the teamplay and leave soloing for jazz drummers"), and with this idea in my head i too was disapointed. then i thought of the title - moby dick - and something interesting came in my head. i think the idea of the song is not melodic, but literary, and the musical structure is following the naration and that's why it troubles so many fans. as i have read moby dick and lots of jules verne novels about whale fishing, i saw a surprising similarity between the way i pictured a whale hunt and the musical naration. do you remember?: 1. the boats filled with sailors descend from the ship and start rowing towards the "crop fields" (agressive intro with guitar, bass and drums with strong riffs). 2. one boats picks a whale and starts aproaching it (drumming, not very strong but not very tempered also). 3. the boat gently approaches the whale in close distance (very tempered, murmured drumming; hand drumming sugests tiptoe sneaking) 4. climax: a sailor hits the whale with a harpoon (back to the sticks, climatic drumming episode) 5. the chase: the whale resists, sinks, comes back to surface, struggles, runs with the boat attched by the cable (strong agressive drumming for quite a long time, lots of thrills recurring with each struggling move of the whale) 6. surrender (the drumming descends in sound and attitude) 7 returning to the mother ship with the whale's body attached (triumphant entrance of the whole instrumental range of the band - bass, guitar, drums). what do you think? to me, this explained the tricky structure and helped me get over the first impression disapointment. then, after intense bootleg listening, i started enjoying it more and more. the performance from the january 1970 royal albert hall concert (on the recent DVD) is now one of my favourites zepp performances. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Hopeless
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 11:32
|
No, he is the best drummer i ever listen to. ------------- If i have any spelling\grammar mistakes, ignore them. English is only my second language <_< 
|
Posted By: Guzzman
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 15:47
That is a very interesting thought indeed , thanks for sharing it!!------------- "We've got to get in to get out" |
Posted By: Froth
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:11
| Is Bonham overated? without doubt! He's a good rock drummer but nothing more. No more than most other drummers from respected 70s rock bands. I can't stand drum solos of any substancial length anyway but moby dick is something else. It just sounds like a war zone, not music |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:37
Note he didn't necessarily say he liked John Bonham's playing, he just said he is influential. I myself don't doubt that he's influential, but I still don't like him. You never know, that guy could actually not like John Bonham's drumming, and was just smart enough not to to say so (unlike me).
|
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:43
Actually, I believe that John Bonham himself has stated himself that the only relation the song has the the book is that when he played it his son, who know about Moby Dick, said that the song was "big like Moby." It's just John Bonham going crazy on the drums.
|
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 17:32
|
as jason bonham was two years old when his father started developing the themes (the whole was first called "Pat's Delight") and was three when he recorded it for the album with the definitve name, "moby dick", there is little or no connection between your story and the actual idea that may have led to the song's theme. and one doesn't need to read "moby dick" to picture the idea of "hunt" or "pursuite" in a particular way, like the one bonham used. i didn't say his idea came from the book, but that is similar. also, if it was just "bonzo going crazy" there would be no coherence, but he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it. led zeppelin became what it became firstly because bonham, the band's soul, never lost the grip on things. until a bad august night in 1980. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 18:56
First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife. Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it." Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.
) |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 23 2006 at 19:02
Overly dramatic? Whining? Allow me to object, for that was a humorous (yet partly true) post. You seem to be stressing the fact that you like John Bonham, and that your opinion is all that matters to you. Have you considered that maybe I feel the exact same way? Everyone is telling me that it's all a matter of opinion and then getting mad at me because my opinion isn't good enough.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 00:34
|
You brought it up-- and there was nothing humorous in the tone or language of the thread you started, in fact you attack and eviscerate him using terms like "boring" and "doesn't seem to care". It is vital to be clear - linguistcally clear - about what exactly your intention is. That includes qualification, i.e. showing some manners not only to the artist you criticize but to their fans who might read your post. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:33
Bonham did play a key role in keeping Led Zeppelin's music steady. My brother is a great guitarist but without a steady beat he is unable to stay in time.
I do not think Bonham's overrated. It is hard to compare him to other drummers because we only have 12 years of his drumming to listen to, whereas Neil Peart has been drumming for about 30 years. Bonham is high on the list, for me, for good drummers with Neil Peart (obviously) and Ginger Baker.
|
Posted By: gong
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:36
i agree.
|
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:38
ok, so it's the wife. i trust you. what i meant was that he kept the "improvisation" exactly the same the whole decade. and belive me, cause i've listened to looots of bootlegs. the only period when you can call it "improvisation" was when it wasn't yet recorded and released and had a different name, "pat's delight" (btw, pat's the wife). one could even say it's a different song. at least the two 1969 pre-ZeppII i heard were very little related to the final version.
there's no credibility issue here .------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:16
I think there is a HUGE credibility issue here- and it's terribly ironic that Bonham's widow is being held up as evidence in the author's ridiculous and embarrassing attack. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:39
Drawing conclusions from the wording of my posts is pretty silly. A million different people could interpret my wording to mean a million different things, not to mention that I most certainly did not pick the wording of my post to express what I thought. My posts aren't poems-I just write the first thing that comes to mind, so you shouldn't be analyzing my diction.
Second off, why are you saying I am "attacking" the band and its fans? I have my opinion, you may not like it but don't be so sensitive. Like OpethGuitarist said in this thread: When someone says they don't like a band like Led Zeppelin, people take it as a personal insult. Have you thought that I may feel that my opinion is being attacked by the harsh words people are aiming at me for my dislike of Led Zeppelin and John Bonham? (I don't feel attacked at all, by the way, but I could if I overreacted). Please, just because we don't agree doesn't mean I'm attacking your views. Just please stopping ripping on me for my opinion. Remember, I never made this thread personal, as I never said I didn't like fans of John Bonham. It was those who critisized me who started to rip on me personally by accusing me of hurting their feeling, rather than just defending Bonham.
Well that's how I see it.
|
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:51
|
Fair enough, and I respect your honest appeal, but remember that words are all we have here- it's up to each of us to be clear about what we truly mean. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: October 25 2006 at 06:01
An (overly?) polite way of saying he doesn't like Bonham. BTW, I'm not so sure Bruford likes Bonham. He doesn't hide his dislike of many drummers, like Keith Moon, for example ("He just hit stuff"). Personally I like Bonham, but he's far from being my fav. |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:29
|
Yes, that's exactly how I interpreted the letter. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:37
| Though it may seem like Erskine was 'just being nice', if you really read the letter, the language he uses to describe Bonham is very specific and rather impressive, especially from someone who is not a Zep fan. Sounds like genuine praise rather than hollow flattery. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:44
|
to me erskine's words say that he appreciated bonham's skills though he didn't like zeppelin, but he is saying this as gentle as possible. and it's actually normal for a jazz player and composer to dislike anything that's not jazz or classical (or even what's not jazz, sometimes), but to be able to appreciate one's performance on a specific instrument, out of it's context - even though this type of judgement is inadequate for rock. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
|
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: October 26 2006 at 16:49
|
Look again. He never said anything about Bonham's skill, he just said he knows that Bonham has influenced a lot of drummers. If he was impressed with Bonham's skill, I'm sure he would have said so. Also, classical and jazz players often look down on rock musicians because of all the the flashy excesses of rock. I'm sure jazz and classical musicians feel that many rock musicians don't even know how to play their instruments correctly, with drummers using their entire arm to play the instrument, thrashing around at random drums and cymbals, and have a death grip on their sticks with no room for rebound, all of which are horrible technique. And guitarists and bassists playing their instuments down at their thighs. Again, that's horrible technique, the only reason they can get away with that is that they don't have too many techniquely demanding things to play. I'm sure it cracks jazz musicians up.Of course little of what I said above applies to prog.
 |