Is "In the court of the crimson king" over-rated?
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Topic: Is "In the court of the crimson king" over-rated?
Posted By: Wuschel
Subject: Is "In the court of the crimson king" over-rated?
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 14:46
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I don't get it how so many people call this the best album of all
time. 3 out of the 5 songs are'nt even really prog IMO unless you
count anything with synths/mellotrone as prog. Songs like In the court, Epitaph, Talk to the wind are really simple and stretched... the Chorus of "in the court" is repeated like 30 times, the verses sound all the same, epitaph is also just your usual Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus order with little variation in the song. I know that it was innovative at it's time , but i think that it now hasn't enough to offer for a prog album. The only really good song that doesn't feel stretched here is IMO "schizoid man" |
Replies:
Posted By: Father Tiresias
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 14:54
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Hell, no !!! no band had sounded like that at the time! -Peace |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 14:58
Yes, it's overrated, but just a little bit . Well, many people will agree that this is the first "real" progressive record (let us not start that debate again please), and the album is meriting a lot from that fact. Apart from that, it's an excellent record. I wouldn't go to such extreme saying it's the best album of all times but it's an excellent record nonetheless.By the way, I Talk To The Wind is not so simple...apart from the ballad part, there's really nicely developed jazzy drum section layered with some nice flute...and I could stand in defense of other songs too, but it's a matter of personal taste. Just my two eurocents.  ------------- |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 14:58
| I agree that the song structures are fairly simple, but I don't think complexity has anything to do with how good an album is. The only thing on ITCOTCK that is less than amazing is the somewhat overlong improvisational part of Moonchild. |
Posted By: Spacemac
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 15:30
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No No No!
It's really GREAT album
 |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 15:35
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Having a verse chrous structure says nothing about whether it's prog or
not. But yourself into the timeframe of 1969 and imagine hearing any of
those tracks especially, 21st Century Schizoid Man. The album isa
masterpiece, not overrated by any means.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 15:49
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If I look at its importance ITCOTCK is one of the most pivotal progrock albums, for example the tension between the female side (acoustic guitars, Mellotron, flute) and male side (fiery guitar and saxophone) as Edward Macan pointed at in his amazing book Rocking The Classics. But personally I prefer other adventurous and creative progrock albums like Foxtrot by Genesis, ELP their debut album, CTTE by Yes and The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn by Syd Barrett Pink Floyd
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Posted By: cmidkiff
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:03
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This album isn't all that groundbreaking except for maybe trk 1, as it owes allot to the Moody Blues. However its still a great album. ------------- cmidkiff |
Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:06
Not really, it's a very impressive album IMO. Especially considering it's their debut! 
------------- The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie 
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:07
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It is not overrated!!!! How can you say that about the first (disputed but I think it is) progressive rock album? All parts of the album (imo) are really innovative for the time and just simply amazing. I basically agree with Eric on this one. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:14
Overrated is entirely subjective, thus:
To you, ITCOTCK is very much overrated.
To me, ITCOTCK is a four star album, so it is slightly overrated.
To many people, ITCOTCK is a five star album, so it is slightly underrated.
Why worry about it?
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Wuschel wrote:Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:14
| Love the album, but Moonchild really blows. I've never understood that track and get completely bored listening to it. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:16
| I don't get all the Moonchild hating going on here. I love that track and can listen to the noodling all the time. Its one of the reasonsI like the King Crimson albums I have (Red, Larks' Tongues In Aspic, ITCOTCK). I love the noodling! |
Posted By: mickstafa
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:19
Improv is good, but I don't hold Moonchild at all in the same vein as Red or LTiA. It is far too simplistic. I really, really am amazed there is not more moonchild hating going on. I know each person has their own tastes (yadda yadda) but I really don't see how many people can like this track. Is there a poll on the relevance of moonchild? Moonchild always gets the skip button after the wonderful 2.5 minute (or so) intro. |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:23
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In my estimation it would be a five star album even if after 21st Century Schizoid Man the rest of the vinyl was just cut with a blank, silent groove. There's more concentrated innovation and brilliance in that song than most bands achieve in a career. (What, me exaggerate?
 )The rest of the album isn't a total waste of time, either... ------------- Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to. http://bandcamp.com/jpillbox" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp Profile |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:29
I made a poll abut Moonchild. Don't know how relevant it is though. I think KC did a gutsy thing by recording an improv. I mean a few bands do that in the studio and come out with a song but KC just recorded the noodling part. Very interesting and probably unheard of at the time. |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 16:38
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I think it's not quite as good as many people say, but still a five star album. So not really.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:08
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Overrated? Not for me. I think its a masterpiece and it gets the attention it deserves (at least amongst prog fans)
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Posted By: DarioIndjic
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:15
An album containing song like Epitaph couldn't be overrated ------------- Ars longa , vita brevis |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:21
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No way. It's every bit as good as its reputation suggests and that reputation is well deserved. It's a hugely influential album to the 'symphonic' sound, imo. Legend has it Genesis retreated to a country house playing this album for hours on end prior to the writing process of Trespass. This wasn't the first album to use the mellotron by any means, but I wonder if it was maybe the most influential to bands who did decide to buy one subsequently.
Prog shouldn't be all about complexity, either. Melody should ALWAYS come first, for my taste, rather than musical derring do or off kilter weirdness. I like those things, yes, but without a good melodic core they can leave me cold. King Crimson at times tend to be a bit TOO abstract for my taste (their more recent output, certainly), but definitely not on this album.
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Posted By: Hatters
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:33
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Hell no. Doesn't get half the praise it deserves.
-------------  http://www.last.fm/user/SHatters/?chartstyle=basic10"> 
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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:46
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I don't care how prog it is, the music is 5-star material in my book. One of my favorite albums ever. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:47
| Its an important album for sure.I havn't listened to it for ages though.The best tracks on it are fantastic but there is some filler IMO.(Moonchild especially) |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:48
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True, it was an album of enormous importance in prog history.
Even if you don't like King Crimson, you cannot deny the influence this album had on the early Genesis, and on Steve Hackett's solo career. But if you judge the album purely as a work of art, it's flawed. Although I like the faster (instrumental) bits of 'Schizoid Man', the sung bits bore the hell out of me - but I admit this may be purely subjective. 'Epitaph' is a different kettle of fish. I was deeply impressed by this track when I was 17, and I loved it to bits, but in spite of its lovely melody, I now feel it sounds incredibly portentous. As for the title track, it's terribly boring and long-winded. And Pete Sinfields fake 'poetry' just gives me the shivers. A pity this incarnation of KC never recorded an instrumental album, since the instruments SOUND so good, especially the drums, the flute and the other woodwinds, the lead guitar and the keyboards... |
Posted By: Nash
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 17:57
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I dont think this is the best album of prog history, but, im completely sure it is a masterpiece of it ------------- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/sydbarrettg.jpg/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: spleenache
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 18:52
| I totally agree. The most over rated album in the history of rock music. I love King Crimson and own every single album/CD they put out to this day (including club releases) but I do not own the "in the court..." and cannot stand it. It is simplistic and repetitive. |
Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 19:07
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Yes, yes, yes! Nice to see someone else thinks the same as me! :)
It sounds so dated now that the only track I can listen to is 'I Talk To The Wind'.
I especially think 21st Schizoid Man is overrated. It sounds like the start to some dodgy TV series to me, such as Captain Scarlet!
Of course, the album will always be rated highly by many, fair enough, but for me it's:
Historically Important, Musically Doubtful.
 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 19:36
ahhh.. guess I've found my topic for the night  too important to be written off as overrated... but hahhaha... Moonchild brings that album down in a big way for quality. The importance is without question.. the album itself... I thought ITWOP a better album. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 19:56
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I'm not a huge King Crimson fan, but find this to be pretty groundbreaking for it's time. I do think it sounds a bit dated and it's not a favorite of mine; however, you can't deny what it meant for this genre that we love so much.
E iTunes: "All The King's Horses" from The Firm's Mean Business ------------- 
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Posted By: Scapler
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 21:09
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HELL NO! One of the most amazing albums of all time! ------------- Bassists are deadly 
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 21:10
"Moonchild" never gets the skip from me; there is some wonderful musical interplay in it. you should open your ears to it. my favorite track of the album, and BECAUSE of that improvisational section. it even beats "21st Century Schizoid Man" -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 21:27
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I see you are a newbie member_profile.asp?PF=11494&FID=42 - Wuschel ... just as well
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 22:36
Over-rated???..... Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo you will burn in hell for this ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: cookieacquired
Date Posted: February 20 2007 at 22:37
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Burning at the stake is the only punishment for this foul blasphemer ------------- 
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Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 01:38
You said it all, pal thx ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 02:05
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Has an album the need to be weird, ultra complex and almost impossible to understand to be a masterpiece?
Hell no!!!!!
Except for 21st Century Schizoid Man that is the experimental track of the album, King Crimson managed to create a soft but aggressive atmosphere absolutely consistent.
The arrangements and the selection of instuments is impeccable, yes some songs keep the ABAB structure, but that's not bad per se, this structure has been used in several genres, the problem is how it is used.
The beauty of the album relies in how well the band managed to work using a simple structure and outstanding arrangements and despite being simple essentially, is the main influence for the most complex albums in history and one of the starting points for the most challenging musical genre ever.
IMHO It's an amazing work.
BTW:
Overrated: How can all this millions of idiots don't agree with me that this album is crap if I say it's crap? ------------- 
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Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 02:07
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Hayl naw! ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 03:30
| As a debut album it's really good! |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 03:36
Please explain. 
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Posted By: Alibongo
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 05:44
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Definetly not, ITCOTCK is probably the strongest debut album from any prog group of that era, perhaps they didn't go on to have as much success after this album as we perhaps may have expected them to, but this album is a very strong debut. Not overated at all. ------------- 
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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 06:12
I agree with you.
As album I like more Larks tongues, Red and Islands, but 21 century is for me not only the best KC song, but the best song in prog.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 06:12
For me, ITCOTCK was a case of love at first hearing - at the ripe old age of 15. Since then, I've never stopped considering it as one of the real masterpieces of prog - even though perhaps a flawed masterpiece in the same way as, for instance, SEbtP or BSS. Personally, I love the way the band explored different styles - jazz, hard rock, folk, experimental, symphonic prog - in the space of only five tracks. ITWOP is also a much better album than it is usually given credit for, but I still think it is not on a par with its predecessor. The title-track is, in my humble opinion, probably the best vocal performance ever by Greg Lake. |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 06:57
| One of the quintesential albums of prog. history. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 08:28
Simple, it's a definition of overrated as normally used.
Overrated is a term based only in our disagreement with the majority opinion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 11:24
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No it isn't. Oh yes it is! Oh no it isn't. Oh yes it is! Oh no it isn't....
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 12:27
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ITCOTCK, Close to the edge and Pawn hearts. the holy trinity of prog. IMO. So the anwser is simply: Hell, no ! ------------- 
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Posted By: Hans
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 12:44
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ITCOTKC is my favorite album of all time....
If anything, I think it's underrated. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 13:03
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It's not called "Best ever" by many, but "(One of the) greatest ever". There's a difference here, between a work of art being "best" and being "great". "Best" at what? There are extremely few cases where the one who sets the rules in a discipline is also the best in accomplishing it's potential (so it's usually "best at something some other guy invented"), and there are many cases when the someone starts a genre, a discipline, without being able to go all the way - but it's the vision that counts. There may be many others who did better in the line of "ITCOTKC". But "ITCOTKC" had the originality that had the influence needed to develop such a wide spectrum of artistic activity... and it was all hidden inside it, there was no random course of action. That's what makes it a great work of art, namely one of the greatest. I couldn't agree more with this kind of rating.
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: Wuschel
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 13:04
| bit off-topic: should i get Close to the Edge if I wasn't too impressed by ITC..? Are there also long songs with little variation does happen more there? |
Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 13:15
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I have never been so dissapointed by an album as i was by "In the court.." I can still remember listening to it the first time, thinking to myself during moonchild that.... well, probably about the same thing Rick Wakeman thought about Tales from topographic oceans. Not because it was bad, no, but because i was totally blown away by "21st century schizoid man", and i was hoping for more of the same, but instead i got... Moonchild, haha.. Since then, i've come to apreciate it a lot more, and it's a great album. Not Moonchild, though. And i'll fight to the death whoever claims it is a masterpiece, hahaha! ------------- 
'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 13:37
| If compared to true masterpieces it would only be a *** album. Defineatly no more than that as that is being generous. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 13:38
What, in your view, are true masterpieces then? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 14:11
Knowing Progger, erase Genesis from your list
he admits liking some of their older stuff but not outstanding.Let me guess, probably Fragile or Close to the Edge would be his choice.
Both great albums anyway CTTE reaches the status of masterpiece ALSO IMHO.
My great question is the meaning of the phrase "TRUE MASTERPIECE".
Masterpiece is a status with whuich each one of us rates some albums, my masterpieces are different from the ones Progismylife has and of course different from Sean Trane's, even my teammates BHIKKHU, ClemofNazareth or my good friends Raf and Micky have different tastes and they may qualify as masterpiece an album I honestly find average or can't stand, and so they can do with my list.
Why somebody's masterpieces have to be true and ours false?
That's the problem with arts, there are no exact truths in matter of preferences, for me ITCOTCK is a 100% masterpiece, and remember, I'm far from being a fan of King Crimson, I can't stand albums as Thrak or Bboom and hardly can listen Larks Tongues in Aspic to be honest, but the touch of the genius is something you can feel in your soul if not in your brain, the genius has own light, even if it's too bright or too low for you or me, you can notice it.
And believe me I can feel the touch of the genius in King Crimson even if I don't like lets say 80% of their work.
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 15:42
| As far as I'm concerned it's the most overrated Prog album ever along with Close to the Edge and Dark Side of the Moon. That doesn't mean it's bad, I just can't see how people can rate it as the quintessential Prog album. |
Posted By: Malve87
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 17:12
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Absolutely no. It's not over rated. It's one of those albums which gave definition of what prog should sound like; I don't think it's the best album ever in prog history, but certainly one of the most important, and it contains GREAT music, for sure! ------------- ] 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 17:17
I think people tend to equate 'masterpeice' with consistency rather than inspiration.'In The Court...' is easily one of the most inspired albums ever released but that will never be enough for some folks
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 17:47
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To me it is over rated, but I don't mind. Its a very important album. Some people love it. I don't. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: February 21 2007 at 23:10
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pshhhhhhhhh. no, i dont think over-rating it is possible. -------------  
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Posted By: Ryth
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 17:55
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I answer this with an immediate "Hell no!" ------------- http://rateyourmusic.com/~Ryth"> 
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 18:02
| Absolutely not. IMHO, it was the first album to break free of psychedelia and stands as the first concrete prog album, though the Moody Blues, Floyd, The Doors, and latter day Beatles all gave prog a head start. Also, the music, though not flawless, is some of the most thought-provoking instrumentality I've ever heard. Normally, lyrics win me over, but the genius displayed here cannot be denied. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 19:47
I would say that most people would say that calling it the first prog album is a bunch of bunk..... check any of the 20 threads that probably exist related to that topic.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Tormato
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 20:04
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I guess it didn't age very well. It must have been mindblowing in those days. I vote "yes". ------------- I like Tormato, so shoot me! Every person in the world can't think the same. |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 20:43
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not sure?
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Posted By: Floydian42
Date Posted: February 22 2007 at 22:37
| Yeah, I think it is. I liked the album just fine, but I don't think it's one of the greatest albums of all time. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 24 2007 at 22:36
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I think it overrated, but only in comparison to other prog meisterpices. It's conjecture on my part, but I wonder if its' placing isn't boosted by it being one of the first major prog releases. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: March 06 2007 at 20:44
I like Moonchild. I think it does go on a bit longer than neccesary, but I really feel like I need some of that empty space to rest after the intensity of 21st Century Schizoid Man and Epitaph, and before gthe intensity of the title track. Not at all an overrated album. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: March 07 2007 at 16:32
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21st Century Schizoid Man is awesome, the next few songs are so boring I can barely remember their names, and In the Court of the Crimson sounds really cool for a bit until it dawns on you that the whole songs is ten minutes of the same verse-chorus. King Crimson always managed to be nearly coma inducing while still having enough cool songs for everyone to call the coma songs "experimental." |
Posted By: moonlapse
Date Posted: March 07 2007 at 21:34
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It's overrated because fully 1/3 of the album consists of Moonchild's noodling, plus I Talk to the Wind, which just sounds far too dated nowadays. Like groovy man - not anymore! But it's still a pretty good album overall though, maybe 3.5*. 21st Century Schizoid man kicks. |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: March 07 2007 at 22:58
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if it were rated 5.1 it would be overrated because the scale is out of 5. -------------
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Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: March 07 2007 at 23:07
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No. Red and Larks Tounges are far more overrated. -------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: March 07 2007 at 23:31
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I think it is.
In Britian Family, Traffic, Moody Blues and the Nice were already creating prog b4 it, while in Germany Amon Duul II had already made their mark while Can made Monster Movie at the same time as ITCOTCK. Frank Zappa had also already made a name for himself. While Miles Davis and Johyn Coltrane had gone weird on traditionakl jazz fans.I think ITCOTCK was significant for Symphonic prog but not all prog, and it certainly wasn't the first prog album ------------- |
Posted By: seamus
Date Posted: March 08 2007 at 08:36
| AH! AH! AH! NO!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Prayermad
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 10:56
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not overrated, not at all. But in the sense of prog, there are alot of better albums |
Posted By: Prince_Rupert
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 14:09
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I don't think that it can be discredited for its simplicity. It really isn't all that simple. Some sections are, but simplicity is removed from quality.
I think it is a masterpiece. It is still relevant more than thirty years after it was made, particularly 21st century schizoid man.
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 14:12
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Hell no! Selling England by the Pound is OVERRATED! |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 16:17
| Hell no! |
Posted By: Kid-A
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 18:08
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I was thinking when I clicked this thread hopefully there's an option 'HELL no'. Luckily there was. ------------- 
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Posted By: raindance2007
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 18:10
| It's overrated like most KC albums |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 19:01
| Not overrated IMHO. I think it has some of the best music ever made. I like all the songs. The atmosphere, the great compositions, Lake's singing and sometimes fantastic lyrics, Michael Giles' drumming (MG is one of the best drummers that I know), the mellotrons, the creativity, so many facets on one album. No, I think that it is an album which is not easily overrated. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: March 09 2007 at 19:12
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I think it's time for a time warp... get in the machine and travel back to 1968.. listen to them perform live and the listen to ITCOTCK... is it overrated?? people seem to forget the impact this album made.. sure Moody Blues already had a mellotron and there were psychedelic bands around... but ITCOTKC was arguably one of the first fully-blown symphonic prog albums ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 16 2007 at 20:02
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After this poll & the one to see if there was a "generation" gap in regards to this album, I actually took the time today to listen to it again. It was better than I remembered. But then I had burnt my original on to another CD when I anthologised my KC collection. In doing so, I edited Moonchild & cut it off at the 2 minute 23 second mark. Somehow that makes the album so much better. With that extra 7 minutes of meandering music, though, it's a 4 star. But I do see how it came to be seen as year 1 in prog history. The Moody Blues may have been first, but they retained a major "pop" element in their music. |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: March 16 2007 at 20:06
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No, but Days of Future Passed definetely is. -------------  
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Posted By: Wuschel
Date Posted: March 20 2007 at 15:44
It doesn't have to be ultra-complex, but repeating the same melody again and again nearly 10minutes is reaaly too much 
am i right that ITCOTCK is one of the least complex from the famous
progalbums? I didn't listen to that many albums yet. I'm afraid of
buying such repetitive/monotone stuff again. should i get close to the
edge and relayer? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 21 2007 at 21:56
No, just get Close to the Edge. For Relayer, try before you buy. |