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Directional Audio Cables - myth or reality?

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Topic: Directional Audio Cables - myth or reality?
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: Directional Audio Cables - myth or reality?
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 05:11
Instead of the usual CD vs. vinyl argument ... let's talk about one of the most controversial audiophile theories: directional speaker cables. Unfortunately I cannot create polls in this section of the forum ... please if you post here, include a vote (yes - I believe in this theory, no - I don't believe in this theory), and I'll count the votes manually and update this post in a few weeks so hopefully we can find out more about the acceptance of the theory.

Smile 

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Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 05:51

The two individual wires of the cable that carry the signal is not unidirectional.

What makes directional speaker cable directional is the screen (or shield or braid depending on which terminology you prefer). To reduce noise, this is normally earthed at the source end. Earthing both ends can lead to an earth-loop which may induce mains-hum. Using a screened cable also affects the impedance of the speaker as seen by the amp, most quality amps can handle this without problem, but on a cheaper amp this can be detrimental to the sound.
 
If you use screened cable without terminating the shield then you have wasted your money.
 
If this fails, try rubbing the cable with snake-oil. Wink
 
so my answer: reality.


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 06:03
Technically your answer is "myth", isn't it?Wink With a shielded cable you would have at three wires (the two main ones which carry the signal and a third one connected to ground) instead of two, I don't see any difference to a standard two-wire cable. I mean, by reversing the direction of the cable don't change the shielding (the ground/earth connector is still at the amp).


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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 06:27
I vote...I don't give a crap.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 06:27
^ No, I'll stick with Reality because of the way these cables are normally supplied (i.e. pre-terminated) Stern%20Smile
 
If you are making the cable yourself, fitting your own terminators and connecting the shield at the amp-end, then okay, it does not matter if the little arrow on the cable points towards the amp or the speaker, so to be pedantic, it's a Myth
 
 


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 06:38
^ you mean that cable has a shield connector only on one side? In that case I guess the cable is directional ... Wink btw: As long as the speaker itself is not connected to the ground for that cable reversing the direction will simply mean to disconnect the shield from the ground. There's no shielding necessary anyway ... the signal is balanced, so interferences cancel themselves out, except for negligible asymmetries (negligible because the signal is very strong in relation to the interferences).




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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 06:57
^ the signal is balanced in bridge-amps (eg vehicle ICE systems) and in some valve designs, but in most semiconductor amps the "Black" terminal is grounded, so the signal is un-balanced. However, as you say, the signal is very strong in relation to the interference and the network (amp-cable-speaker) is low impedance, so interference effects are negligible.
 
Personnally I think shielded speaker cables are a waste of time, effort and money, and any unshielded two-wire cables that are labeled as directional are fraudulent.
 
Mike, you haven't stated your view on this subject: Myth or Reality?
 


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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 07:05
as far as i've been told all cables are directional - interconnects, speakers, guitar lead, i thought i should follow the manufacturers instructions to get best results, but i am tempted one day to reverse them all and see  hear what happens Evil%20Smile


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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 08:27
In terms of Hifi cables and sound , you'll find little difference between high quality normal cable (this means no specified direction)   and uni-directional cables, IMHO. And I haven't really seen a significant price difference between the two in specialized stores.
 
I have both sorts on different hifi and simply have never thought about making comparisons by unhooking the cables and exchanging them to compare.
 
 
 
 
Just to be certain , Mike!!  you are aware that Unidirectional wires (this means they have an arrow pointing the way it should be cabled)  are not speaker cables, but used between the Hifi elements, (but not the speakers). I could be wrong on this issue, but I have yet to hear of speaker cables that are unidirectional (unless you're speaking of connecting the red connector of amplifier  to the red connector of speakers and the black to the black, which should ALWAYS be done anyway)
 
 
 
 
As for whether it is possible to make unidirectional cable, yes it is but this is feasible only at the foundry during the manufacturing process of the wire and its different alloys. Whether the connectors (end pieces) can be manufactured to be unidirectional, I have no doubt either. Part of my job is about testing different metals (but copper is not one of them) in their resistivity (not resistance as in Ohms, even if that does come in the process) and magnetism properties on the finished products as they age.
 
And as for ..... trying to reverse the direction on unidirectional cables , I don't care to try, either. I just have more important issues in life..... even if I have nothing to do for the next four hours. I have no doubt it would work worse if reversed, because they are manufactured to work in one direction.
 
 
 
So I say reality and no myth. Whether this unidirection makes a real audible difference to another high-qual wire, I am much less positive, though.
 
 


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prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 08:46
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ the signal is balanced in bridge-amps (eg vehicle ICE systems) and in some valve designs, but in most semiconductor amps the "Black" terminal is grounded, so the signal is un-balanced. However, as you say, the signal is very strong in relation to the interference and the network (amp-cable-speaker) is low impedance, so interference effects are negligible.
 
Personnally I think shielded speaker cables are a waste of time, effort and money, and any unshielded two-wire cables that are labeled as directional are fraudulent.
 
Mike, you haven't stated your view on this subject: Myth or Reality?
 


Why, myth of course. BTW thanks for enlightening me about the amp speaker outputs ... I didn't know that they're usually unbalanced.Embarrassed


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 08:51
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Just to be certain , Mike!!  you are aware that Unidirectional wires (this means they have an arrow pointing the way it should be cabled)  are not speaker cables, but used between the Hifi elements, (but not the speakers). I could be wrong on this issue, but I have yet to hear of speaker cables that are unidirectional (unless you're speaking of connecting the red connector of amplifier  to the red connector of speakers and the black to the black, which should ALWAYS be done anyway)

It doesn't matter much whether you connect a CD player to an amp or an amp to speakers ... I edited the thread title a little bit, I'm really referring to audio cables in general, with speaker cables being just one example.Embarrassed


And as for ..... trying to reverse the direction on unidirectional cables , I don't care to try, either. I just have more important issues in life..... even if I have nothing to do for the next four hours. I have no doubt it would work worse if reversed, because they are manufactured to work in one direction.
 
So I say reality and no myth. Whether this unidirection makes a real audible difference to another high-qual wire, I am much less positive, though.

But how can this be possible? AFAIK there is no basis for a rational explanation of how these unidirectional cables work, or why the direction should have any effect. The audio signal - balanced or unbalanced - is alternating current ...
 


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 08:52
Here is a reference to Speaker Cable polarity from the http://www.vandammecable.com/ - Van Damme website:
 
"These plaited conductors are then over-sheathed with a flexible transparent PVC jacket side by side in the same shotgun formation as the twin interconnect, and one conductor is marked with a polarity arrow. This arrow indicates the preferred direction of signal flow: from the amplifier to the speakers."
 
/edit: Which is a complete nonsense - there is no such thing as signal flow. The signal propagates down the conductor, but the current flow is a.c. - it goes in both directions - it is this fundamental error which is the basis for all these directional claims.


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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 08:54
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Just to be certain , Mike!!  you are aware that Unidirectional wires (this means they have an arrow pointing the way it should be cabled)  are not speaker cables, but used between the Hifi elements, (but not the speakers). I could be wrong on this issue, but I have yet to hear of speaker cables that are unidirectional (unless you're speaking of connecting the red connector of amplifier  to the red connector of speakers and the black to the black, which should ALWAYS be done anyway)
  
 
i have used two makes of speaker cable that claim to be "uni"directional, Hugues, "QED" made in UK and "Kimber" speaker cables made in USA, which i believe are marked from the point of manufacture. Smile
 
 


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 09:35
Okay, now you've altered the topic subject to include all hi-fi interconnects, I've read back through what I wrote and it still applies (apart from a typo that I've since fixedEmbarrassed)
 
There are two types of small-signal interconnect: balanced and unbalanced. Balanced has two inner conductors which are the signal & return path and has an earthed external screen (eg XLR type cable) - unbalance cable has a single inner conductor (signal) and the outer screen is also used as the return path (eg RCA connectors). Neither are directional.
 
You can buy balanced cable with RCA connectors - these cables are psuedo-balanced, the screen and the "return" conductor are connected at source and the screen is left "open" at the receiving end. These cables are marked as being directional with the arrow pointing to the "open" end.
 
That is the technical explanation and in theory it is possible to tell the difference if you get the direction wrong, but for the carp I listen too I doubt I'd notice Wink


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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 09:51
^ of course this type of cable is not what I mean ... directional cables in the world of audiophiles are usually cables which are supposed to be optimized for a particular direction on the material level - meaning that the same "wire" sounds differently depending on which direction you use.

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 09:52
Oh, in that case. Pure Smoke and Mirrors, Emperor's New Clothes, Snake Oil - i.e. MYTH. LOL

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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 10:05
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

as far as i've been told all cables are directional - interconnects, speakers, guitar lead, i thought i should follow the manufacturers instructions to get best results, but i am tempted one day to reverse them all and see hear what happens Evil%20Smile


You'll hear that it's less good.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 10:16
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Just to be certain , Mike!!  you are aware that Unidirectional wires (this means they have an arrow pointing the way it should be cabled)  are not speaker cables, but used between the Hifi elements, (but not the speakers). I could be wrong on this issue, but I have yet to hear of speaker cables that are unidirectional (unless you're speaking of connecting the red connector of amplifier  to the red connector of speakers and the black to the black, which should ALWAYS be done anyway)

It doesn't matter much whether you connect a CD player to an amp or an amp to speakers ... I edited the thread title a little bit, I'm really referring to audio cables in general, with speaker cables being just one example.Embarrassed


And as for ..... trying to reverse the direction on unidirectional cables , I don't care to try, either. I just have more important issues in life..... even if I have nothing to do for the next four hours. I have no doubt it would work worse if reversed, because they are manufactured to work in one direction.
 
So I say reality and no myth. Whether this unidirection makes a real audible difference to another high-qual wire, I am much less positive, though.

But how can this be possible? AFAIK there is no basis for a rational explanation of how these unidirectional cables work, or why the direction should have any effect. The audio signal - balanced or unbalanced - is alternating current ...
 
 
Aside from the explanation Darqdean gave you about the AC signal!
 
Again Mike, this is where it is useful to see which cables you're talking about.
 
Indeed the speakers cable transport an AC-like signal to the speaker, but this one is riding on a slight DC current (needed to power up the speakers>> please don't tell me these are working on water and fresh airWink). BTW!! Important that both speaker cables be the same lenghts (in case of stereo, I don't know for 5.1) even if one is much closer to the stereo. The entire length should be deployed and NEVER wound up.
 
 
With unidirectional cable between say your CD deck to your amp >> the info can only go one way and is not an AC (either O or 1), therefore only going one way anyway.
 
 
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Just to be certain , Mike!!  you are aware that Unidirectional wires (this means they have an arrow pointing the way it should be cabled)  are not speaker cables, but used between the Hifi elements, (but not the speakers). I could be wrong on this issue, but I have yet to hear of speaker cables that are unidirectional (unless you're speaking of connecting the red connector of amplifier  to the red connector of speakers and the black to the black, which should ALWAYS be done anyway)
  
 
i have used two makes of speaker cable that claim to be "uni"directional, Hugues, "QED" made in UK and "Kimber" speaker cables made in USA, which i believe are marked from the point of manufacture. Smile
 
 
 
 
Fred, the two brand names you mention are unknown to me (as a matter of fact I don't know any cable manufacturer off hand or by memory Embarrassed) so I don't know how serious they are.
 
For my speaker cable (cut to the dimension I asked them and left bare), I had to mark the black side with a black marker and make sure that at the other end I marked the colour on the same side.  So for my use since the cables comes from a 50m spool, only the connectors coud be unidirectional unless there are repeated arrows down the cable as well as colour markings down the whole lenght of the cable.
 
 
 
For me the most important quality for speaker cables is shielding (this is where the signal is the most vulnerable),  and to make sure that they do not run alongside other cables >> never wind up your cables either, this produce capacitance and induction phenemenon, (this might appear a bit crazy , but even at these low tensions/power,  best not taking chances.


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 10:24
^ why should there be an DC current required to "power up" the speakers? Essentially a speaker is an electrical magnet ... depending on the voltage of the signal the magnet attracts or repells the membrane (or rather the piece of metal attached to the membrane). If a speaker really needed DC current I'm sure it would simply get its own power supply.

And I'm also sure that the signals between the hi-fi components are AC too. You can't transport information on a DC connection ... unless you would do some kind of current modulation, which I have never heard of.


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:28
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 Indeed the speakers cable transport an AC-like signal to the speaker, but this one is riding on a slight DC current (needed to power up the speakers>> please don't tell me these are working on water and fresh airWink).
 
They are not working on water and fresh air - the water would be harmful. Wink
 
There is no DC component in the speaker cable - it there was it would seriously damage your speakers. The Power Amplifier amplifies the music signal (I will refrain from calling it AC from now on) to such a level that it can drive the speaker coil.
 
(AC can power things - that's how washing machines and light bulbs work!)
 
 
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

With unidirectional cable between say your CD deck to your amp >> the info can only go one way and is not an AC (either O or 1), therefore only going one way anyway.
 
Signal flow is not the same as current flow (I've said this before), If you hold a length of rope by one end and give it a flick, a single "wave" would travel along the rope, but nothing else would. In an electrical conductor electrons do not flow along the cable carring bits of music signal - they propagate the "information" from one electron to the next like the fibres in the rope did. Imagine a Newton's Cradle - swing the ball at one end and the ball at the opposite end bounces. (it's actually nothing like that - but this is as simple an analogy I could think of).
 
AC is not 1 or 0 - that is binary. AC is a voltage that cycles between postive and negative - for Mains electricity this happens at 50 or 60 times a second - for music it happens at the frequecy of the music being played.
 
The music signal really does Alternate between positive and negative, the Current flows in alternating directions in the conductor.
 
A unidirectional conductor would stop half this signal from getting through. That is called a diode.
 
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

BTW!! Important that both speaker cables be the same lenghts (in case of stereo, I don't know for 5.1) even if one is much closer to the stereo. The entire length should be deployed and NEVER wound up.
Matched speaker cable lengths are a partial Myth. 
 
Electronic signals travel down the speaker cables at aproximately two-thirds the speed of light (i.e. 200,000,000m/s) which is roughtly 5nS to travel 1 metre. For there to be a noticeable phase difference to audio signals the difference in lenght between two cables would need to be over 10000 metres (or 50µS).
 
There are impedance differences between unmatched cables that would be noticeable on inferior amplifiers - however you would not detect this on any mid to high-end amplifier.
 
 


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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ why should there be an DC current required to "power up" the speakers? Essentially a speaker is an electrical magnet ... depending on the voltage of the signal the magnet attracts or repells the membrane (or rather the piece of metal attached to the membrane. If a speaker really needed DC current I'm sure it would simply get its own power supply.

And I'm also sure that the signals between the hi-fi components are AC too. You can't transport information on a DC connection ... unless you would do some kind of current modulation, which I have never heard of.
 
Well you have digital cables from DCC and CD decks to the amplifier and the optic links (this is the future for most intra-hifi links) work also in digital .
 
As far as the speakers are concerned I think I wrote a little too quick hereEmbarrassed. You're right (I was thinking of those computer speakers that have power plugs to them >> they're the ones I see when I type my answers) they can power themselves from the signal.
 
Edit: However should those Hifi speakers (not PA speakers) be needing to power itself up, the last thing I'd want to to is introduce a power suply inside the resonance box of the speaker or even under it.


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:47
^ of course optical and/or digital links work somewhat differently ... I was talking about analog cables, which still are the standard in most systems. Still, the connections are based on alternating current, which - as darquean eloquently put it - is simply another word for: signal.


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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 11:56
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

 
There is no DC component in the speaker cable - it there was it would seriously damage your speakers. The Power Amplifier amplifies the music signal (I will refrain from calling it AC from now on) to such a level that it can drive the speaker coil.  >> Yup,Embarrassed I explained my mistake (re the computer speakers) in the other post, even if the info is not travelling the same cable as the power.
 
 
Signal flow is not the same as current flow (I've said this before), If you hold a length of rope by one end and give it a flick, a single "wave" would travel along the rope, but nothing else would. In an electrical conductor electrons do not flow along the cable carring bits of music signal - they propagate the "information" from one electron to the next like the fibres in the rope did. Imagine a Newton's Cradle - swing the ball at one end and the ball at the opposite end bounces. (it's actually nothing like that - but this is as simple an analogy I could think of).>>> I think we (I?) are mixing the subjects between digital cables and analog cables here. My NAD is running with analogue, but my Yamaha is using digital cables and my CD-burner even uses an optic link from my CD player. Clearly the two concepts are quite different with analogue cabling(directional or not).
 
 
The music signal really does Alternate between positive and negative, the Current flows in alternating directions in the conductor. A unidirectional conductor would stop half this signal from getting through. That is called a diode.
 
Matched speaker cable lengths are a partial Myth. 
  
There are impedance differences between unmatched cables that would be noticeable on inferior amplifiers - however you would not detect this on any mid to high-end amplifier.  >> Did not specify, but the impedance was the problem I was hinting at here. But I remember in the 80's my brother cutting a cable on 50 cm and one of 3m, (for sake of saving £$£€) and one speaker sounded much higher than the other due to the impedance (at least was my guess >> Max Pow Transfer). Once both cables were equal thios was solved.
 
 


-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:04
^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.
 
Digital is a whole different ball-game and you are moving from Audio into RF (which is why your digital cable is a co-ax cable like your TV) - in these cases optical is better.


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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 12:10
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.
 
 
 
I thought I was too until that post where I mixed up my different set ups on my different stereos.


-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 13:06
oh, and make sure you pay extra for those cables that reduce skin effect in the wire! Wink
[really needs an eyeroll smiley...]

most of that audiophilia stuff is bunk IMO.




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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 14:28
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ I (we) were only talking Analogue cables.

Digital is a whole different ball-game and you are moving from Audio into RF (which is why your digital cable is a co-ax cable like your TV) - in these cases optical is better.


In theory yes. But actually optic fiber doesn't works.
(musically speaking).


Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 04 2007 at 17:36
^ this theory (digital connections influence the sound) would deserve a thread of its own.Wink

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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 05 2007 at 05:49
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ this theory (digital connections influence the sound) would deserve a thread of its own.Wink
 
 
NNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................LOL
 
 
Olivier, the only optical cable I have is the one supplied with my Hi-fi burner and it is connected from my Cd plzayer to it. It works just fine.
 
But I haven't tried it to my amp, since my amp is too old to have the optic receiving, (but it does the digital cables.


-------------
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: arcer
Date Posted: June 05 2007 at 09:02
Cables schmables, just installed a pair of these Sonus Faber Concerto Domus speakers beside my hi-fi and not caring about the direction of anything except the sublime music these reproduce. I am in love.

The mid range is just awesome - listening to Radiohead's The Tourist from Ok Computer last night and separation of the twin Thom Yorke vocals on it was just enthralling. Okay so the bass can degrade on fast music but I'll buy a damn sub to correct that at some point.

I'm a very broke, but very happy boy...





Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 09 2007 at 05:09

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

 
Truth or Myth? Cable Directionality
You are here: http://www.russandrews.com/lookup/1/region/UK/currency/GBP/customer_id/PAA0944061807323PUHVMEKCKDVEGIVK/article-Russ-Masterclass-russ_on....htm - Russ' Masterclass > http://www.russandrews.com/lookup/1/region/UK/currency/GBP/customer_id/PAA0944061807323PUHVMEKCKDVEGIVK/article-Truth-or-Myth-Cable-Directionality-russdirectionality.htm - Truth or Myth? Cable Directionality
javascript:history.go%28-1%29"> javascript:history.go%28-1%29 - Go back to the previous page  
All cables - yes all cables have signal directionality. By 'directional' I mean that in one direction, the sound is slightly louder, has lower distortion, is a cleaner, smoother, sweeter, and has a deeper bass and overall wider dynamic range. Cable directionality is measurable and quantifiable, if not fully understood.

The amount of directionality, or the difference between one direction and another varies from cable to cable.

I first discovered cable directionality when I was doing research and development into cable design in 1979. I was auditioning a microphone cable as an interconnect. The drain wire in the cable could be grounded at either end and a friend suggested that I try it each way round (meaning to change the grounding from one end to the other). I misunderstood him, however, thinking that he meant that I should turn the whole cable around. I found to my surprise that the cable actually sounded better one way than the other - it was directional!

I tested the effect on my wife (a blind test, not telling her what I was changing) and asked her to describe the change in sound. She described exactly what I had heard, so I knew I wasn't imagining it, even though my electronic 'education' said it couldn't happen.

I have since discovered that the telecommunications industry is well aware of cable directionality and applies this knowledge when laying cables.

The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.



When you buy a cable from us, its directionality is marked by either an arrow on a paper label, or on the heatshrink near one end of the cable. The signal follows the arrow, so on an interconnect connecting a CD player to an amplifier, the arrow points towards the amplifier. On a loudspeaker cable, the arrow points towards your speakers.

If you have a cable that isn't labelled with its directionality, see our tip, right, on directionalising cables at home.




Postscript: Customer Craig Sawyers e-mailed us to say:

"Interesting comments about cable directionality, Russ. That it occurs is undoubtedly true, and that it is poorly understood is also true. But your comments about communications professionals knowing about the effect is, also surprisingly, true!

When we moved into our house about 10 years ago, I had a company based in Luton, who I knew, come and install the TV and FM aerials. As he was uncoiling the spool of high spec, double shielded satellite cable on the lawn the engineer said "got to make sure I get this the right way round". I asked him why, and he said "no idea how it works, but you get a better picture when we connect it the right way round". So there we go - it isn't only the audio fraternity that notice cable directionality!"




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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 09 2007 at 08:07
LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.




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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 09 2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.

 
this is the point, Mike, cables are not made to be directional, thay just are - nobody really understands why .Confused  and it doesn't affect the price or saleability - even cheap cables are directional.
 
 
 


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 09 2007 at 22:00
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

LOL - of course these guys describe it as if it was fact ... they make their money with these cables.

The question is: How can a cable be directional if its internal structure isn't? Cables aren't manufactured with "signal flow directions" in mind ... they're essentially just long pieces of metal, perfectly symmetrical in shape. And the signal that "flows" through the cable is also symmetrical ... a sine wave is perfectly symmetrical, and the voltage applied to the cable is causing an electrical current in both directions. And the more complex signals are also essentially more or less complex combinations of sine waves.

 
this is the point, Mike, cables are not made to be directional, thay just are - nobody really understands why .Confused  and it doesn't affect the price or saleability - even cheap cables are directional.
 
I have sent an email to Kimber Kables, (surely that should be Cimber Cables - swaping K's for C's is all a bit too much Kamelot and Konkhra for meConfused), asking if they could furnish me with more details on this quantifable test method. I await their reply.SleepySleepySleepy
 
Mike is correct on all counts - if the cable were electrically directional then the symmetry of the signal would be affected - ie distorted on one half of the signal - swapping the cable would only swap the distortion to the other half but the net result would be the same... distortion.
 
::thinking out loud::
 
Because this distortion would be asymmetrical it would consist of predominately even harmonics - the same kind of harmonic distortion you get from the output transformer in a valve (tube) amplifier. Valve amps are generally regarded as "warmer" than their solid-state counterparts for this reason. However since this asymmetric distortion is the same in both directions it does not explain subjective directionality.
 
In all of the (web)published info on this subject many listeners say that the signal sounds warmer when the cables are swapped while the others say it is brighter (i.e. the opposite). Aside from sugesting that the actual direction of these "directional" cables is purely a matter of personal taste, it tends to imply that there is even harmonic distortion in one direction (warmer) and odd harmonic distortion in the other (brighter). Odd harmonic distortion occurs when the music signal is distorted equally on both the positive and negative cycles (ie symmetricaly).
 
This leads to another possible explanation in that in one direction there is odd harmonic distortion and in the other there is none. What people are perceiving as a warmer sound is actually the true sound that the record producer created and the brighter sound is the cable distorting the signal symmetrically. This still does not explain the mechanics of subjective directionality.
 
A cable is a passive network, electrically it is described by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line - transmission-line theory, which describes the two wires (signal & return - not left & right) as a ladder of series inductors (L) and parallel capacitors (C), this is symmetrical and (being passive) works in either direction. The inductors are the wire itself while the capacitors are the plastic insulation that seperates the two wires (often called the dielectric... and there is a whole mess of audiophile psuedo-science regarding dielectrics - including one idea that the dye in the insulator can leach into the wire). This L-C effective-circuit is a low-pass filter, with a roll-over frequency in excess of 100KHz (depending upon cable length), which is why you cannot send video signals down an audio cable. Because audio cables are designed to have a flat frequency response across the entire audio spectrum the electrical characteristics of the cable cannot be affecting the colour of the sound like the tone-controls on an amplifer would.
 
For there to be directionality in this L-C ladder then either there is either directionality in the L or in the C element of the cable. All internet discussion on this subject centres around the wire itself, which suggests that the directionality is in the wire. However, since the conductors are multi-strand then this directionality would have to exist in all the individual strands and that they are all aligned in the same direction.
 
Because multistrand cables are spun together from multiple reels of single strand wire this would mean that the spools of wire are all of identical directionality. As strange as it may seem - this is feasible since the wire is made by drawing a ingot of copper through increasingly smaller dies, then spooling it onto a huge drum and then re-reeling it onto smaller spools for sale to audio-cable manufacturers - so the direction of manufacture will be constant for all spools. If it is the drawing process that imparts the directionality into the inductance of the wire then it will be electrically measureable. And since both wire and the ability to measure inductance have been around for a few hundred years, someone would have spotted this by now. Even cable manufacturers who sell directional cable only quote one value for the inductance of their cable (and one value for the capacitance).
 
On curious comment I read on this subject is that the directional effect is less noticable after 20 minutes or so.
 
This process is refered to a lot and is called burn-in, impling that there is an annealing effect going on, which, by inference, means that heat is involved in re-arranging the structure of the copper. Heat requires power. The power in an interconnect is smaller than miniscule - the resistance of the cable is typically 65miliohms and it is terminated in 47Kohms. This means that for a 1 volts rms music signal 1.46uV is lost in the cable, which equates to 40attoW of power (40E-18W), which is best refered to as four-fifths of nothing divided by infinity. One fanciful explanation I have read for this is that the electrons flowing through the wire are rearranging the copper crystals to find the path of least resistance, which is wrong on so many levels I'll not even bother to comment.
 
Another cable-direction issue that is costing Audiofiles a whole heap of readily disposible cash is in the power cable that connects the hi-fi to the national grid. But that's another story. Smile
 
 


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 11 2007 at 17:07
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy


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Posted By: enigma
Date Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:13
About 6 months ago I mailed a cable manufacturer (both hi-fi and professional studio/tour stuff) with the same question.

Basically I wondered why their rather good value professional studio speaker cable was not marked up as being directional, whereas their 'hi-fi' stuff was.
This is the response :-

The theory goes that copper crystals when pulled form slight chevrons, these point in the direction of the way the copper was pulled.

The boundaries make resistance, and so in theory affect the quality of the sound.

The <pro studio & tour range name removed> ranges are for the professional user, who it has to be said have more pressing concerns than whether their cables are run out in the right direction; -they tend to think this is irrelevant.

The Hi-Fi industry think otherwise and like to have something to listen to in every option; I as you may imagine sit firmly on the fence.



The upshot is I now use the pro stuff for my hi-fi.


Posted By: Neil
Date Posted: June 11 2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

The signal is balanced in bridge-amps (eg vehicle ICE systems) and in some valve designs, but in most semiconductor amps the "Black" terminal is grounded, so the signal is un-balanced. However, as you say, the signal is very strong in relation to the interference and the network (amp-cable-speaker) is low impedance, so interference effects are negligible.
 
Personnally I think shielded speaker cables are a waste of time, effort and money, and any unshielded two-wire cables that are labeled as directional are fraudulent.
 
 
 
 
Most valve amps will drive the load through a transformer so are truly balanced output (and also floating, no direct ground connection).
 
As regards speaker cable, I agree entirely.Clap


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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 12 2007 at 04:33
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy
 
i too would be interested to know what  "new and very expensive test equipment" they use to test directionality, might write to them myself and ask for a report! Wink
 
 


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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 12 2007 at 07:52
They will probably invest in a TV advertising campaign led by presenters in white coats; that way, the wobbling classes will believe "Dey Must Be Sientizts And Cleva, Dey Got Wite Coatz" and will buy the product on their word alone...

...even if they don't own any hi-fi.

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 12 2007 at 17:43
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

an interesting article from the "Russ Andrews" website, distributors for Kimber cables -

::snip::
The engineers at KIMBER KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment.
::snip:: 

1st reply back from Kimber states that they have never made such a claim...
 
awaiting their second reply Sleepy
 
i too would be interested to know what  "new and very expensive test equipment" they use to test directionality, might write to them myself and ask for a report! Wink
 
 
 
I've got the feedback from Mr Diamond of Kimber Kable. The copper wires they use are basically amorphous in structure, and hence not directional. He says that directionality occurs after a burn-in period. He also states that they have some expensive test equipment and can perform some special tests at special frequencies that reveals observable changes that standard audio-band tests would not show.
 
"Since we are a private business and not a public research facility we tend to keep these tests and the research to ourselves."
...
"In summary,  RAA's statement is based in fact.  It is just not a statement we have chosen to make.  As such, it is still not our factory's statement."
 
A tad frustrating, but not unexpected. Stern%20Smile
 
So the bottom line is: if directionality is an empirically measureable effect, then the proof is still illusive.
 
Since (by subjective tests) it appears to occur naturally with use, non-directional cables, or directional cables connected the wrong way around, will "correct" themselves over a period of time (which seems to vary from 20 minutes to 50 hours).
 
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway. Wink
 


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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 13 2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

 
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway. Wink
 


and inserting them the wrong way?

Tongue


Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 13 2007 at 07:55
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

 
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway. Wink
 


and inserting them the wrong way?

Tongue
 
 
OWWWCH  Pinch
 


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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 13 2007 at 08:11
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

 
So the real irony is not that Audiophile believers are wasting their money buying unnecessary directional cable, but that we sceptics and non-believers could be using "directional" cable anyway. Wink
 


and inserting them the wrong way?

Tongue
 
 
OWWWCH  Pinch
 
 
You don't sound so mystic now.Ermm


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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: June 13 2007 at 16:30
My question to Kimber Cables, Utah, U.S.A. ......
 
"Problem/Concern Description:  cable directionality.
cable directionality, fact or fiction,  is the subject of heated discussion
on many internet forums - i asked Russ Andrews for their opinion on the
subject and they referred me to you - do you have instruments that can prove
which direction particular cables are suited for? or is it something that
establishes itself after burn-in time?

many thanks in anticipation

steve trowbridge"
 
Their reply I recieved this evening..
 
"Dear Mr. Trowbridge,
 
Thank you for your question.  I'm afraid the comment on the RAA website, "The engineers at KIMBER
KABLE are now able to measure cable directionality and quantify it using some new and very expensive test equipment,"
has taken us a bit by surprise mainly because we hadn't read it before (until yesterday anyway).  While this comment has validity we (Kimber Kable proper) have not issued this statement.  Russ Andrews Accessories is our oldest and dearest international distributor and they have a great deal of knowledge and expertise with regard to the audio industry.  They have brought many interesting issues into light over the past many years.  I have found many of their findings quite fascinating and always valid. 
 
The issue of cable directionality is always a tricky one to address.  We have studied this for years, utilizing both sophisticated measurements and measurement apparatus.  What really happens during cable break-in or the forming or origin of directionality is still based somewhat in theory.  In other words can one see inherent directionality in the crystalline structure of the copper?  How about after burn-in, can one see a change in the copper or the dielectric?  These questions are still open for debate. 
 
Our (Kimber Kable) copper wires are basically amorphous in their structure.  In other words, they don't begin life with any inherent directionality.  After "burn-in" or a period of "break-in" there is some belief that changes may occur in the conductor and the dielectric - forming some directionality.  We certainly do have a well equipped research lab and some very expensive test equipment.  We do have the ability to perform some special measurements at special frequencies which has helped us greatly in our research and product development.  Since we are a private business and not a public research facility we tend to keep these tests and the research to ourselves.  Through the type of testing that we do we have observed changes in this area.  Standard audible band frequency response measurements would never reveal such results.  Naturally, we have preferred to be reticent with regard to stating such.  The topic is controversial.  We are not looking to re-write the laws of physics or change public perception.  Rather, just to make a better product, both technically and sonically.  If we discover some special technologies along the way, which we certainly have, than it makes our quest all the more meaningful.
 
In summary,  RAA's statement is based in truth.  It is just not a statement we have chosen to make.  As such, it is still not our factory's statement.
 
Thank You,
 
Dick Diamond
Kimber Kable"
 
 

  so that's about it....same as they told Dean really .Wink



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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 13 2007 at 20:04
^ exactly the same. Word for word, punctuation for puntuation, extranious spaces for extranious spaces Stern%20Smile

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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 14 2007 at 10:01
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ exactly the same. Word for word, punctuation for puntuation, extranious spaces for extranious spaces Stern%20Smile


Dick Diamond sounds like a made up name....however judging by the spelling in your reply at least we know you're real Dean...Tongue

You've not met Professor Peter yet have you?Wink


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 14 2007 at 10:50
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

^ exactly the same. Word for word, punctuation for puntuation, extranious spaces for extranious spaces Stern%20Smile


Dick Diamond sounds like a made up name....however judging by the spelling in your reply at least we know you're real Dean...Tongue

You've not met Professor Peter yet have you?Wink
 
I'm brilyunt at speling - it's just my typing that lets me down. Wink
 
Professor Peter? Fairly tall handsome looking chap, generous to a fault, never argues or raises his voice, would give you the shirt off his back, always gets his round in at the pub?


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Posted By: explodingjosh
Date Posted: June 21 2007 at 23:53
Seriously. I just read the Kimber Kables, I am fully convinced that it is indeed a myth.

Did you read how many times he mentioned that the equipment is "very expensive"? Well apparently it wasn't expensive enough to provide them with a real answer. All they really told you is that the subject is "still open for debate", and that the "topic is controversial" which means THEY DON'T KNOW.

I like how in the 3rd paragraph they simply tried to confuse the reader with big, vague words.

"we tend to keep these tests and the research to ourselves"
HAHA of course you do... because the research shows that your over-priced cables are no better than ones you could buy at the grocery store!

I used to think I was an audiophile, but then I realized I was becoming a sucker.



Posted By: Archer
Date Posted: June 22 2007 at 06:36
I have got some very esoteric cables and they perform beautifully. I did discover after having them in the system for some time that they were "directional". So off they came for an examination - not a mark anywhere to show the consumer which direction was the appropriate one! Perhaps the direction required was to use from end to end and not laterally!
 
Anyway I did try swapping - and surprise, surprise, not difference.



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