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Topic: Political discussion thread
Posted By: stonebeard
Subject: Political discussion thread
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 01:40
Otherwise know as the "Discuss Politics Until Things Get Out of Control And Admins Close the Thread," or so past events dictate. Confused

Political discussions are my favorite.Tongue


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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!



Replies:
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:02
what's the topic than?


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:11
Oh, I dunno. I'm tired now, and was planning on going to sleep and being surprised on where the discussion had gone by morning. LOL

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:14
I ain't keen to politics; but I lately wondering in what kind of misery is our politics heading again. 

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 07:35
ok.... the topic for the day...  since it is my birthday...

'immigration'  your thoughts?  and we'll go from there.

My thoughts..in short.

The current debates about immigration are insane... build a wall, people will get around, over, or under it.  Criminalize it? ..hahha that sure as hell hasn't worked.  Anyone who thinks that deporting all illegals is practical.. as well as even being good for this country is wacky in the head.  My solution....  open the borders, make it not tougher to get in.. but make it easier to come in AND be a legal tax paying citizen. 

what sayeth thee... those wimps on the left and right...


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 10:48
I agree that the process of coming here legally is broken and needs to be fixed- however, I disagree with illegal immigration because I think it's unfair to those who abide by the rules.  I've known many legal workers here from all over the globe who have struggled mightily to become a legal resident, get a green card, etc., and I just think it's a slap in the face to them to just walk over the border.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:01

First before any decision about those illegally in the country is made the border has to be sealed. Our border is far too large to be policed by man power alone; we will need a wall and as quick as possible. A country without a definable border is not a country at all.

Next the current laws we have codified must be enforced. There are plenty of good laws on the books that are never acted upon. Because of this businesses go about nearly publicly hiring illegal immigrants because they know they won't be forced to atone for their actions. Punishment of these business is already allowed by law and this is the easiest way to dissuade illegal immigration. It's far easier to run around and punish these business than it is to round up illegals. Without the incentive of willing employers far less will attempt to breach the border.

 

I'm against any kind of amnesty. Giving illegals citizen status isn't fair to those who have been legally waiting to gain entry to the country and more importantly we can't be rewarding people for breaking our laws.

 

Since the unconstitutionality of awarding citizenship to those born on U.S. soil of non-American citizens, I would like a constitutional amendment to clarify the language in the 14th amendment so that citizenship is not automatically granted to anyone born within the U.S. borders. This will dissuade further illegal immigration further and stop the abuse of American social programs by non-citizens.

 



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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:11

Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? It sems that illegals make up a large portion of the manual labor population because a formal education is not needed. You'll be hard pressed to get an illegal immigrant to build a fence meant to keep others out.

 
Amnesty should not be given, but "illegals" (God I hate that term), should be allowed to queue up to get citizenship. Then they could wait with those who came legally. As the descendent of Scotch-Irish immigrants, I know that if Ireland bordered america, I doubt everyone would have had papers.Immigrants are the only people who still believe in the American Dream. The American Dream has been orrupted into the idea of making a lot of money quickly and without work. The true dream is that dilligence and hard work will pay off in the end. "ilegal" immigrants embody that fream more than anyone else in this country.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:30

Yes no European country has a fenced border but a majority of them are bound together by the EU. Contractors will build the fence here in America.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with giving illegals here a chance to receive the proper documentation, as long as they reimburse the government for back taxes and for breaking our laws, but allowing them to remain in the country while this happens is de facto immigration.

 

I think to assert that the American Dream is dead in America is an insult to middle and lower class families working to raise their position in the social strata and forge a better life for their children. The American Dream is by no means dead in America and it is by no means embodied by people who's first act upon entering our country is breaking the law.

 

I would like to add a large disclaimer that what I'm about to say does not apply to all illegals, but

we can't have this romanticized view of illegals as humble workers trying to live the American Dream. Many of them are here just to give birth and reap the benefits of the state's welfare system.

 

To view a fenced border just as a matter of "illegal Immigration" is shortsighted also. Before you travel halfway around the world to fight terrorism in an foreign country, you should worry about it walking across your border as could easily be done  now. Of course, the governments refusal to track those here on visas and deport those here on expired ones adds a whole other dynamic I suppose.

 



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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:45
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

...I disagree with illegal immigration because I think it's unfair to those who abide by the rules.
 
I agree.  In the USA not taking measures to discipline the wrong-doers, a clear message is sent for the rule breaking to continue.
 
Immigration has its place most definitely but the abuse has got to stop. I think stiffer penalties to those found hiring illegals is a good idea.
 
 


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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

To view a fenced border just as a matter of "illegal Immigration" is shortsighted also. Before you travel halfway around the world to fight terrorism in an foreign country, you should worry about it walking across your border as could easily be done  now. 
I agree with that, but probably not in the manner you intended it. I believe we never should have entere iraq, but we'll save that for when that topic rolls around. Do you believe in fencing Canada? everyone talks about Mexico, but all of the 9/11 terrorists entered through Canadian/US border, which is the largest unguarded border in the world. I hate when people bring up the fence but never mention Cnada. Do both borders or do no borders.
 
[QUOTE=Equality 7-2521]Contractors will build the fence here in America. [/QUOTE} Contractors hire illegal immigrants.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:42
^ I believe we never should have entered Iraq too. I believe the Canadian border should be fenced too, but it's not nearly of as high of a priority as the Mexican. The Mexican government is in shambles and the country is run by drug cartels. That's were the greatest threat of illegal immigration and other illegal activities like drug trafficing and terrorism will come from.
 
Contractors hire illegals. If the illegals don't build the fence they get fired. Alls well.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:54
I agree that the legal immigration process should be made easier, but it is wrong to reward people for breaking the law. If we crack down on employers hiring illegals, the jobs will dry up and they will be forced to go home or apply for citizenship like everyone else. The borders must be closed for the simple reason that we need to know who is in the country if we have any hope of protecting ourselves from terrorism.
Making new laws is a waste of time and taxpayer money. We already have the laws we need, but no one seems to be willing to enforce them.


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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:20
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes no European country has a fenced border but a majority of them are bound together by the EU. Contractors will build the fence here in America.



Confused What's the relationship between these two sentences???



Anyway, despite the fact that we have the EU, immigration is up to national governments, not to the EU government. Fences, illegality don't work, nor does our current government focus on integration. The latter is saddening: instead of immigrants 'integrating', more and more of our own people start adopting the ways (religion, clothing, ideas) of the immigrants.



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http://www.angelosrockorphanage.com" rel="nofollow - My blog: Angelo's Rock Orphanage


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:26
^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)


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http://www.angelosrockorphanage.com" rel="nofollow - My blog: Angelo's Rock Orphanage


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:35
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
Those immigrants were invaders who wanted to sack, pillage, and rape everything in China. Not the same at all. Also, the bits of fence on the US/Mexico border are only a few feet high, whereas the Great Wall is about 20 feet high and made of sheer rock not easily climable chain link


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:45
Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:50
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.
 
He won't commute them because they are not covering up his corruption.
 
 


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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:56
Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent.

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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:57
^^^

That's certainly not the case in the US...quite the opposite, really.


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:58
Are you saying I can move to the US and get a nice job, a mortgage and free health care then?

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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Are you saying I can move to the US and get a nice job, a mortgage and free health care then?


I meant that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are poor compared to the citizens...they receive very low wages (very often under minimum wage) because the employers know they have no recourse.

But to answer your question, if you have skills that are in need here and are willing to work hard, yes you can have all those things - as I do.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 14:04
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.
 
He won't commute them because they are not covering up his corruption.
 
 


LOL


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 14:07
Well the immigrants get low wages here too, so I'm not sure where they get their money from.

There's a lot of Polish and Portuguese in Swindon (both are EU countries), but the majority of them work in low paid sectors of work (such as Bus driving... which always worries me actually!).  I have no problem with hem though.

It's the Eastern Bloc immigrants that seem to have the money though.


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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 14:09
hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 18:00
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I speak five languages including my own, have two Master's degrees, considerable experience as a language teacher and a cultural promotion officer, and should be completing my PhD by the beginning of next year. My financial position is sound, and I am a honest, reliable, hardworking person coming from a good, honest, hardworking family background.

In spite of all that, I will have to spend a sizable amount of money, not to mention be submitted to a medical examination (and the thought of having possibly to get vaccinations against children's illnesses at the ripe old age of 46 doesn't really make me very happy) and an interview which might touch on some aspects of my private life in order to get permission to live with my husband in the USA. If he decided to move to Italy, though, all he would have to do is to apply to get  a 5-year residence card (NOT a visa or a permit), a mere formality which would enable him to move freely in the European countries that subscribed the Schengen Agreement.

I know some of you will tell me now about the numerous Green Card scams having happened in the past, when two perfect strangers got married in order to guarantee one party free entry to the USA, and possibly citizenship a few years later. Well, I'm quite sure people who want that have already found a way around the red tape, while people like me - who will probably NEVER be a burden to your Social Security system - will have to go through what, to my European mind, is a violation of some basic human rights.

As a matter of fact, the Italian Constitution protects every individual citizen's right to form a family - I thought the American Constitution did the same, but probably that only applies to those US citizens who don't marry potentially dangerous foreigners.


Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 18:18
That's sick, Rafaella, I feel bad for you. Let's hope that at least they'll accept you and let you in - instead of making it worse... Fingers crossed and good luck from a small town called Best in the Netherlands.

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http://www.angelosrockorphanage.com" rel="nofollow - My blog: Angelo's Rock Orphanage


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 18:54
Wow this thread has not been deleted yet!!!
ShockedLOL
 
How do I feel about the Bush Administration???? Listen to the song Bin Laden, by Immortal Technique and Mos Def,
 
 I have pretty strong political beliefs, but nothing mainstream of course....


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:17
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
 
Well yes of course it won't stop illegal immigration through those means, but when did anyone expect it to. We're supposed to have airport and seaport security to check those things. We're discussing a different issue here which is illegals crossing on the U.S.-Mexico border.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:20
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
Those immigrants were invaders who wanted to sack, pillage, and rape everything in China. Not the same at all. Also, the bits of fence on the US/Mexico border are only a few feet high, whereas the Great Wall is about 20 feet high and made of sheer rock not easily climable chain link
 
Of course my comparison wasn't a literal one; it was just meant to show the use of a fence to keep people out. The nature of the fence is rarely discussed but by judging the price and just using some common sense we can assume its not a simple chain link fence. Our government may be incompetant, but not so imcompetant that it will spend a few hundred million dollars to build a fence that a pair of bolt cutters can take down.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:21
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
 
Well yes of course it won't stop illegal immigration through those means, but when did anyone expect it to. We're supposed to have airport and seaport security to check those things. We're discussing a different issue here which is illegals crossing on the U.S.-Mexico border.
China did block immigrants out, but that led to their falling behind to a point where only recently through the overly extreame means of Maoist polocy have become a world power again. Walls kill economy, the us needs immigrants. Let them come. Even with the wall the mongols invaded.
 
 


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:21
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well the immigrants get low wages here too, so I'm not sure where they get their money from.

There's a lot of Polish and Portuguese in Swindon (both are EU countries), but the majority of them work in low paid sectors of work (such as Bus driving... which always worries me actually!).  I have no problem with hem though.

It's the Eastern Bloc immigrants that seem to have the money though.
 
A combination of their untaxed income and transfer payments from your taxed income.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:25
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I speak five languages including my own, have two Master's degrees, considerable experience as a language teacher and a cultural promotion officer, and should be completing my PhD by the beginning of next year. My financial position is sound, and I am a honest, reliable, hardworking person coming from a good, honest, hardworking family background.

In spite of all that, I will have to spend a sizable amount of money, not to mention be submitted to a medical examination (and the thought of having possibly to get vaccinations against children's illnesses at the ripe old age of 46 doesn't really make me very happy) and an interview which might touch on some aspects of my private life in order to get permission to live with my husband in the USA. If he decided to move to Italy, though, all he would have to do is to apply to get  a 5-year residence card (NOT a visa or a permit), a mere formality which would enable him to move freely in the European countries that subscribed the Schengen Agreement.

I know some of you will tell me now about the numerous Green Card scams having happened in the past, when two perfect strangers got married in order to guarantee one party free entry to the USA, and possibly citizenship a few years later. Well, I'm quite sure people who want that have already found a way around the red tape, while people like me - who will probably NEVER be a burden to your Social Security system - will have to go through what, to my European mind, is a violation of some basic human rights.

As a matter of fact, the Italian Constitution protects every individual citizen's right to form a family - I thought the American Constitution did the same, but probably that only applies to those US citizens who don't marry potentially dangerous foreigners.
 
A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:27
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.
 
It is sick; I'll go further and say it's sick if he doesn't pardon them fully. Bush has already stabbed his conservative base in the back, but his commuting a Libby and blind eye towards these two men shows that cronyism is more imprtant to Bush than justice and patriotism.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:29
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I speak five languages including my own, have two Master's degrees, considerable experience as a language teacher and a cultural promotion officer, and should be completing my PhD by the beginning of next year. My financial position is sound, and I am a honest, reliable, hardworking person coming from a good, honest, hardworking family background.

In spite of all that, I will have to spend a sizable amount of money, not to mention be submitted to a medical examination (and the thought of having possibly to get vaccinations against children's illnesses at the ripe old age of 46 doesn't really make me very happy) and an interview which might touch on some aspects of my private life in order to get permission to live with my husband in the USA. If he decided to move to Italy, though, all he would have to do is to apply to get  a 5-year residence card (NOT a visa or a permit), a mere formality which would enable him to move freely in the European countries that subscribed the Schengen Agreement.

I know some of you will tell me now about the numerous Green Card scams having happened in the past, when two perfect strangers got married in order to guarantee one party free entry to the USA, and possibly citizenship a few years later. Well, I'm quite sure people who want that have already found a way around the red tape, while people like me - who will probably NEVER be a burden to your Social Security system - will have to go through what, to my European mind, is a violation of some basic human rights.

As a matter of fact, the Italian Constitution protects every individual citizen's right to form a family - I thought the American Constitution did the same, but probably that only applies to those US citizens who don't marry potentially dangerous foreigners.
 
A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.
True, but on the other hand you dont need an interview to remain a citizen. Mabe they should require a interview evry ten years to renew your citizenship just in case, but then you are only worried about your rights and wouldent go for it.
 


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:30
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
 
Well yes of course it won't stop illegal immigration through those means, but when did anyone expect it to. We're supposed to have airport and seaport security to check those things. We're discussing a different issue here which is illegals crossing on the U.S.-Mexico border.
China did block immigrants out, but that led to their falling behind to a point where only recently through the overly extreame means of Maoist polocy have become a world power again. Walls kill economy, the us needs immigrants. Let them come. Even with the wall the mongols invaded.
 
 
 
Communism led to China's falling behind; now that they've begun to free their markets they're  emerging as a superpower. I'm not denying that the U.S. needs immigration. It most certainly does since we don't reproduce enough to sustain our population. However, we don't need unchecked illegal immigration. We need legal immigration, and time for the melting pot to take effect and assimilation to occur.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:32
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I speak five languages including my own, have two Master's degrees, considerable experience as a language teacher and a cultural promotion officer, and should be completing my PhD by the beginning of next year. My financial position is sound, and I am a honest, reliable, hardworking person coming from a good, honest, hardworking family background.

In spite of all that, I will have to spend a sizable amount of money, not to mention be submitted to a medical examination (and the thought of having possibly to get vaccinations against children's illnesses at the ripe old age of 46 doesn't really make me very happy) and an interview which might touch on some aspects of my private life in order to get permission to live with my husband in the USA. If he decided to move to Italy, though, all he would have to do is to apply to get  a 5-year residence card (NOT a visa or a permit), a mere formality which would enable him to move freely in the European countries that subscribed the Schengen Agreement.

I know some of you will tell me now about the numerous Green Card scams having happened in the past, when two perfect strangers got married in order to guarantee one party free entry to the USA, and possibly citizenship a few years later. Well, I'm quite sure people who want that have already found a way around the red tape, while people like me - who will probably NEVER be a burden to your Social Security system - will have to go through what, to my European mind, is a violation of some basic human rights.

As a matter of fact, the Italian Constitution protects every individual citizen's right to form a family - I thought the American Constitution did the same, but probably that only applies to those US citizens who don't marry potentially dangerous foreigners.
 
A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.
True, but on the other hand you dont need an interview to remain a citizen. Mabe they should require a interview evry ten years to renew your citizenship just in case, but then you are only worried about your rights and wouldent go for it.
 
 
Let's not play that game. Making citizens be subject to an interview to remain a citizen doesn't really make any sense. Especially since I don't believe there are any legal means for removing citizenship once it is gained.
 
Though of course if it was required I would go.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hoping Raff will come on later... she's worn out and taking a quick nap....  and tell you all why I chose this topic and why so many come illegally.   Try to emigrate here legally... even with multiple degrees....a stable government job...  financial means above what most of Americans have and so on.... even as a spouse to a citizen what she (or anyone)  has to face is daunting.

there is something wrong about that


Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. I speak five languages including my own, have two Master's degrees, considerable experience as a language teacher and a cultural promotion officer, and should be completing my PhD by the beginning of next year. My financial position is sound, and I am a honest, reliable, hardworking person coming from a good, honest, hardworking family background.

In spite of all that, I will have to spend a sizable amount of money, not to mention be submitted to a medical examination (and the thought of having possibly to get vaccinations against children's illnesses at the ripe old age of 46 doesn't really make me very happy) and an interview which might touch on some aspects of my private life in order to get permission to live with my husband in the USA. If he decided to move to Italy, though, all he would have to do is to apply to get  a 5-year residence card (NOT a visa or a permit), a mere formality which would enable him to move freely in the European countries that subscribed the Schengen Agreement.

I know some of you will tell me now about the numerous Green Card scams having happened in the past, when two perfect strangers got married in order to guarantee one party free entry to the USA, and possibly citizenship a few years later. Well, I'm quite sure people who want that have already found a way around the red tape, while people like me - who will probably NEVER be a burden to your Social Security system - will have to go through what, to my European mind, is a violation of some basic human rights.

As a matter of fact, the Italian Constitution protects every individual citizen's right to form a family - I thought the American Constitution did the same, but probably that only applies to those US citizens who don't marry potentially dangerous foreigners.
 
A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.
True, but on the other hand you dont need an interview to remain a citizen. Mabe they should require a interview evry ten years to renew your citizenship just in case, but then you are only worried about your rights and wouldent go for it.
 
 
Let's not play that game. Making citizens be subject to an interview to remain a citizen doesn't really make any sense. Especially since I don't believe there are any legal means for removing citizenship once it is gained.
 
Though of course if it was required I would go.
Actually the government has been quite adept at taking away the citizenships of the suspected terrorists at Guantanimo Bay, but your right that isn't legal so nevermind


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:39
^
A majority of them aren't Americanare they? But you're right for those who are it is not legal.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:56
Well I read an article last year in an English newspaper about an 80+ year old former member of the NASDAP who had been living in America for years.  Not even her family knew of her background.  Then one day she mentioned it and she's been deported back to Germany.

How was/is she a threat?


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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 20:57

She could be a bomb



Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:00
After all this time?  She had been an American citizen since emigrating there and her husband was also Jewish, I gather.

I hardly think she's a threat, personally.


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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:02
That's why it's such a good bomb, by now nobody suspects her. But the government knew. This is why it's okay to tap our phones. We can weed out the bombs masquerading as old Jewish women.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:03
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well I read an article last year in an English newspaper about an 80+ year old former member of the NASDAP who had been living in America for years.  Not even her family knew of her background.  Then one day she mentioned it and she's been deported back to Germany.

How was/is she a threat?
 
She probably wasn't. If she was here on an experied visa or illegally though the law is the law. I don't know anything about the case though so I shoud probably not say anything. Though it seems like something the government would do,  deport an elderly German woman for an expired visa and turn a blind eye to the radical muslim immigrants.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:03
Ah, but the government didn't know, until she let slip, apparently.

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:04
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.


I have been an employee of the Italian state for over 20 years, and in the course of that time I had three medical examinations, if I remember well. Therefore, I am well aware of the practice. However, in none of those cases was I required to be vaccinated against illnesses which usually occur in childhood (I'm not talking about TB, cholera or yellow fever). Vaccines are not something to be assumed lightly, especially at the age I am now. I remember having a very strong reaction as a child (and I've always been very healthy) when I was vaccinated against smallpox, and I wouldn't really enjoy repeating the experience now.

In any case, Western Europe is not an uncharted wilderness where people are not able to take care of their health. As far as I know, child care in Europe is much better than in the US, and child mortality figures are far lower (not to mention our life expectancy, which is generally higher). But then, we still believe in offering people universal healthcare - though, unfortunately, things might be changing.

As to the interview, it depends on what a person is asked. In my book, even being asked at the airport what the purpose of my visit is, when I come to your country ready to spend quite a bit of my hard-earned Euros, is something unacceptable -  especially since no US citizen is asked anything of the sort when travelling to Europe. Having to provide evidence of a "real" relationship with my husband is equally distasteful to me, even more so as I have nothing whatsoever to hide. The Web is full of rather unpleasant stories happened to citizens of highly developed countries (i.e. Canada and Western Europe) when trying to get to the US LEGALLY, in most cases for family reasons.

Illegal immigration is not the issue here, but the right of a woman to be able to share a life with her husband without having to spend thousands of dollars and wasting a lot of precious time in paperwork, not to mention wait months or even years before she is able to work. In Europe we have a lot of illegal immigration, but no one has ever dreamed of making life so difficult for couples who only want to exercise their right to live together.


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:05
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060920/ai_n16735163 - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20060920/ai_n16735163

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:12
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.


I have been an employee of the Italian state for over 20 years, and in the course of that time I had three medical examinations, if I remember well. Therefore, I am well aware of the practice. However, in none of those cases was I required to be vaccinated against illnesses which usually occur in childhood (I'm not talking about TB, cholera or yellow fever). Vaccines are not something to be assumed lightly, especially at the age I am now. I remember having a very strong reaction as a child (and I've always been very healthy) when I was vaccinated against smallpox, and I wouldn't really enjoy repeating the experience now.

In any case, Western Europe is not an uncharted wilderness where people are not able to take care of their health. As far as I know, child care in Europe is much better than in the US, and child mortality figures are far lower (not to mention our life expectancy, which is generally higher). But then, we still believe in offering people universal healthcare - though, unfortunately, things might be changing.

As to the interview, it depends on what a person is asked. In my book, even being asked at the airport what the purpose of my visit is, when I come to your country ready to spend quite a bit of my hard-earned Euros, is something unacceptable -  especially since no US citizen is asked anything of the sort when travelling to Europe. Having to provide evidence of a "real" relationship with my husband is equally distasteful to me, even more so as I have nothing whatsoever to hide. The Web is full of rather unpleasant stories happened to citizens of highly developed countries (i.e. Canada and Western Europe) when trying to get to the US LEGALLY, in most cases for family reasons.

Illegal immigration is not the issue here, but the right of a woman to be able to share a life with her husband without having to spend thousands of dollars and wasting a lot of precious time in paperwork, not to mention wait months or even years before she is able to work. In Europe we have a lot of illegal immigration, but no one has ever dreamed of making life so difficult for couples who only want to exercise their right to live together.
 
I think you're being a bit too touchy if you're getting upset about being asked what the purpose of your visit is. I remember being asked the same thing by French officials when I travelled there four years ago. It's not a purely American procedure. I will say though I can see no reason for you having to prove your relationship.
 
The means may be a little rough but I don't think it verges on excessive. Protection of the country is pretty important. If you don't like the terms of entry, nobody is forcing you to enter.
 
Doesn't your marriage give you citizenship though Raff?
 
And as a sidenote, are you back to PA for good now?
 


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:20
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

She could be a bomb

 
LOL
 
We need way tougher immigration control. We have to stop those illegal Norwegians.....I don't know how they're getting over the polar ice cap.
 


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:21
With Oden on Their Side LOL


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

A medical examination and an interview are a violation of basic human rights? I guess every employer in the world, as well as colleges and universities, are all violating human rights. A country's safety is pretty important especially to those living in it; some precautions do have to be taken before people can waltz right in. Those pesky medical checks are what eliminated diseases like TB in this country; only to have it become reanimated by illegal imigration.


I have been an employee of the Italian state for over 20 years, and in the course of that time I had three medical examinations, if I remember well. Therefore, I am well aware of the practice. However, in none of those cases was I required to be vaccinated against illnesses which usually occur in childhood (I'm not talking about TB, cholera or yellow fever). Vaccines are not something to be assumed lightly, especially at the age I am now. I remember having a very strong reaction as a child (and I've always been very healthy) when I was vaccinated against smallpox, and I wouldn't really enjoy repeating the experience now.

In any case, Western Europe is not an uncharted wilderness where people are not able to take care of their health. As far as I know, child care in Europe is much better than in the US, and child mortality figures are far lower (not to mention our life expectancy, which is generally higher). But then, we still believe in offering people universal healthcare - though, unfortunately, things might be changing.

As to the interview, it depends on what a person is asked. In my book, even being asked at the airport what the purpose of my visit is, when I come to your country ready to spend quite a bit of my hard-earned Euros, is something unacceptable -  especially since no US citizen is asked anything of the sort when travelling to Europe. Having to provide evidence of a "real" relationship with my husband is equally distasteful to me, even more so as I have nothing whatsoever to hide. The Web is full of rather unpleasant stories happened to citizens of highly developed countries (i.e. Canada and Western Europe) when trying to get to the US LEGALLY, in most cases for family reasons.

Illegal immigration is not the issue here, but the right of a woman to be able to share a life with her husband without having to spend thousands of dollars and wasting a lot of precious time in paperwork, not to mention wait months or even years before she is able to work. In Europe we have a lot of illegal immigration, but no one has ever dreamed of making life so difficult for couples who only want to exercise their right to live together.
 
I think you're being a bit too touchy if you're getting upset about being asked what the purpose of your visit is. I remember being asked the same thing by French officials when I travelled there four years ago. It's not a purely American procedure. I will say though I can see no reason for you having to prove your relationship.
 
The means may be a little rough but I don't think it verges on excessive. Protection of the country is pretty important. If you don't like the terms of entry, nobody is forcing you to enter.
 
Doesn't your marriage give you citizenship though Raff?
 
And as a sidenote, are you back to PA for good now?
 
Besides, US air inconviences are nothing compared to Israel's. Thorough interrogations are done before anyone gets on a plane bound for Israel.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:28
hmmm....  I'll let you two duke it out on that end..

and take this issue on from the other end.....   what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country.  When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here.  Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem.   We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration......  become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem.  Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....

Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration.  Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 21:32
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hmmm....  I'll let you two duke it out on that end..

and take this issue on from the other end.....   what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country.  When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here.  Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem.   We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration......  become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem.  Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....

Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration.  Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.
Very well said. Clap I too believe that making it easier for legal iommigrants to become citizens will result in less illegal immigration.


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 25 2007 at 22:37
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hmmm....  I'll let you two duke it out on that end..

and take this issue on from the other end.....   what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country.  When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here.  Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem.   We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration......  become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem.  Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....

Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration.  Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.
 
Yes! Best idea I've heard yet for the whole immigration debate.
 


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 01:19
Or perhaps figure out and fix the reason poorer Mexicans want to get out of Mexico so bad. To them, the U.S. is relatively good, good enough to break the law for a chance at success. 

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 09:44
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent.
 
Possibly a stupid question, but how do you know they're illegal immigrants?


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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom




Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 09:52
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:




As to the interview, it depends on what a person is asked. In my book, even being asked at the airport what the purpose of my visit is, when I come to your country ready to spend quite a bit of my hard-earned Euros, is something unacceptable -  especially since no US citizen is asked anything of the sort when travelling to Europe.


Every time I have traveled to Europe I have been asked the purpose of my visit. I say "Holiday" and that's the end of it. For some reason, that doesn't deeply offend me.


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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 11:04
At the moment I have no time to go in depth into the subject of immigration. My opinions on the subject are quite unconventional, and I don't want to start a flame war after having spent over three months away from the boards.

However, for those of you who think the spouse of a US citizen becomes automatically a citizen, or even gets a Green Card, I would recommend you take a look at this site:

http://www.visajourney.com - www.visajourney.com

You will see what is in store for me and what a lot of other people have had to go through, not to mention the not inconsiderable amounts of money they have had to spend in order to be granted the right to live with their spouse.

As far as I know, nowhere in the world does one becomes automatically a citizen after marriage, but,  as I pointed out in a previous post, they don't have to spend months doing paperwork, or shell out thousands of dollars in order to be able to be with their other half. The process can be quite lengthy too, which could mean spending months apart, or not being able to work for months, even years (I know of people to whom this has happened). Probably you call it protecting your country - I call it violating a basic human right, but I'm probably a bit odd in the head.

As to the questioning in airports, I admit to being touchy about such matters, but this is the way I am. I've heard of European citizens being harassed by border authorities, or even being denied entry to the US, which meant a lot of money going down the drain. This makes me reasonably nervous every time I have to go through immigration, even though I have nothing to hide, nor do I have any intention of breaking the law.

Of course, as Pat said, no one is forcing me to come here. If I am planning on doing so, it is for a series of valid reasons, most of all having to do with wanting the best for my future husband. However, I think you'll allow me the luxury of resenting being treated as a potentially dangerous person.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 26 2007 at 17:08
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:




As to the interview, it depends on what a person is asked. In my book, even being asked at the airport what the purpose of my visit is, when I come to your country ready to spend quite a bit of my hard-earned Euros, is something unacceptable -  especially since no US citizen is asked anything of the sort when travelling to Europe.


Every time I have traveled to Europe I have been asked the purpose of my visit. I say "Holiday" and that's the end of it. For some reason, that doesn't deeply offend me.


bah..... Raff is right....  one time in Italy... I got pulled over by some machine gun toting  carabinieri for speeding.... all I did was flash my passport and they waved me through.




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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip


Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 07:49
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent.
 
Possibly a stupid question, but how do you know they're illegal immigrants?


Good question. LOLEmbarrassed

I don't, but some of them might very well be.  Besides, even if they're legal, they still seem to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, which most of my friends don't have.  Yet you see these same people down the Labour Exchange, or outside Wise Employment.

There just seems to be a double standard to me, that's all.


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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 07:53
It just means that people spend their money in different ways. if that's a political point for anyone at all then hurray for the future.

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 10:59
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hmmm....  I'll let you two duke it out on that end..

and take this issue on from the other end.....   what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country.  When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here.  Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem.   We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration......  become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem.  Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....

Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration.  Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.
 
I don't understand how building a wall is equivalent to a police state. A nation without borders ceases to be a nation at all. The U.S. has a duty spelled out in Article IV Section IV of the Constitution which says : "The United States shall garuntee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion." It is already failing in the latter part of that duty and will be spitting in the face of that agreement if the borders are just opened to anyone.
 
A wall will most certainly limit illegal immigration. Nobody is saying it will completely stop it. The next three routes to bring about stopping it are first overturning judicial oligarchies which have stopped the citizens of California, Arizona and other border states in passing legislation that will deny welfare benefits to illegal aliens. Next, the 14th Ammendent must be clarified so that it's indisputable that anyone born on U.S. soil is not an automatic citizen. And lastly anyone here illegally, anyone here on an expired visa, must be deported.
 
That for the most part will eliminate much illegal immigration. Other things like catch and release policies need to be ceased too but I don't think I need to lay down a whole platform.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 22:04
WOW....it sure is tough to tell who lies on the conservative/liberal ends here LOL
Someone care to discuss something besides illegal immigration?
 
Just a question...


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 27 2007 at 23:00
How about Iraq? That oughta be fun


Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 08:58
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

She could be a bomb

 
LOL
 
We need way tougher immigration control. We have to stop those illegal Norwegians.....I don't know how they're getting over the polar ice cap.
 



Beware! I'm coming for you... and I'm bringing my pet polar bear!!

LOL


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The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes
Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie


Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 28 2007 at 11:19
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

How about Iraq? That oughta be fun
 
Oh man..... honestly I dont even know. Every possible idea I've heard is just terrible.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:08
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

How about Iraq? That oughta be fun
 
Iraq as we know it can only exist under a repressive political regime. The idea of introducing democracy to it is to ignore history. The country consists of three distinctly different people, with different religions, customs, and cultures. Nations are born of just those things, not constitutions. Without a dictator like Sadam to force them together they will split themselves apart. They do not share the bonds of history, faith, and culture to form once nation together.
 
Since America is in denial of this our presence there is only delaying the bloody war waiting to tear the country apart. Regardless even of that, the war has been so badly mismanaged that our troops do not know the rules of engagement and are acting with one arm tied behind their back by the Iraqi government and its ties to brutal warlords. We're fighting remenants of Sadam's regime that were left behind in pockets are we prematurely rushed into Baghdad with the hopes that if the head falls, the body will follow.
 
I can't say I can think of a solution, but I can do the easy part and see the mistake.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:19
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

How about Iraq? That oughta be fun
 
Oh man..... honestly I dont even know. Every possible idea I've heard is just terrible.


I agree with you completely. It seems like impossibly bad things will happen if we stay, and even worse things will happen if we leave.


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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 22:57
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
 
Well yes of course it won't stop illegal immigration through those means, but when did anyone expect it to. We're supposed to have airport and seaport security to check those things. We're discussing a different issue here which is illegals crossing on the U.S.-Mexico border.
China did block immigrants out, but that led to their falling behind to a point where only recently through the overly extreame means of Maoist polocy have become a world power again. Walls kill economy, the us needs immigrants. Let them come. Even with the wall the mongols invaded.
 
 
 
Communism led to China's falling behind; now that they've begun to free their markets they're  emerging as a superpower. I'm not denying that the U.S. needs immigration. It most certainly does since we don't reproduce enough to sustain our population. However, we don't need unchecked illegal immigration. We need legal immigration, and time for the melting pot to take effect and assimilation to occur.
hold on, I didn't notice that till just now
History lesson evryone:
The Quing dinasty cut off immigration and trade, shutting down even the silk road in order to not be influenced by outside cultures. As a result when Japan attacked at the forefront of world war two the Chinese were fighting back with swards, they had never developed advanced technology as they were cut off. Maoists overthrew the Japanese and faught against other groups that wanted power. Mao, through a series of extreme polocies (that were bad ideas) built factories and began to bring China into the modern age, however all those factories were no good if you could not trade with the west, so when China began trading with the US among others and reformed their economic structure they had all of the infrastructure they needed in order to become a world power. China was a mess before communism, so was russia for that matter, dont ignore the good that the communists did because of all the evil that came with it.
 
edit: may have minor flaws, that was just based off my memory.


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:02
^
I agree that a country shouldn't become ignorant of the world outside it and that cutting off its markets to the outside is incredibly dangerous. I don't see what immigrations, especially illegal has to do with any of that. Immigrants pouring into China wouldn't have openned its markets.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:02
Iraq solution:

get out now, deal with the flak, wait a few decades until settles. meanwhile, defend the motherland from the reproachful attacks of all the nations we pissed off going into Iraq.

Ha.....ha.....oh we're so f**ked.Ouch

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 29 2007 at 23:05
^
I think I know that what you suggest is the best solution, but I can't shake the feeling of guilt of breaking our promises and leaving to country to a bloodywar that we started. If only we'd never gone : ( .


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 17:34
How about the guilt that we're fueling terrorism around the globe due to this double-speak "war on terror", not to mention the guilt of American soldiers dying when keeping them there won't solve anything?

Yes, I understand leaving Iraq in this vulnerable state would cause some guilt and also negative international reputation, but that's worse if we keep at it.

Though honestly, I'm more worried of Cheney's desire to attack Iran with Nuclear bombs because of unproven claims of Iran is attacking our troops. Heck, Saudi Arabia is the enemy when it comes to that aspect!!


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 20:52
Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by Geck0 Geck0 wrote:

Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent.
 
Possibly a stupid question, but how do you know they're illegal immigrants?


Good question. LOLEmbarrassed

I don't, but some of them might very well be.  Besides, even if they're legal, they still seem to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, which most of my friends don't have.  Yet you see these same people down the Labour Exchange, or outside Wise Employment.

There just seems to be a double standard to me, that's all.
 
Maybe the answer is to hang outside Labour Exchange or Wise Employment. They apparently know something you don't.  LOL
 
By the way, who are the illegal immigrants in GB?  And now I'm being serious. 


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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 30 2007 at 20:56
^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:28
Originally posted by Zitro Zitro wrote:

How about the guilt that we're fueling terrorism around the globe due to this double-speak "war on terror", not to mention the guilt of American soldiers dying when keeping them there won't solve anything?

Yes, I understand leaving Iraq in this vulnerable state would cause some guilt and also negative international reputation, but that's worse if we keep at it.

Though honestly, I'm more worried of Cheney's desire to attack Iran with Nuclear bombs because of unproven claims of Iran is attacking our troops. Heck, Saudi Arabia is the enemy when it comes to that aspect!!
 
The Iran allegations scare me. Why would Iran, a country with dwindling oil reserves and a vastly inferior, military  wish to pick a fight with the United States. In addition, Iran supports the pro-America regime operating in Iraq, and Iran is also at odds with the Al-Queda group operating in Iraq which warned Iran that it  "faces terror attacks if it does not stop supporting Shiites in Iraq.."
 
Also:
"

Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, who leads the al-Qaida group known as the Islamic State in Iraq, says his fighters have been preparing for four years for war on Iran:

' We are giving the Persians, and especially the rulers of Iran, a two-month period to end all kinds of support for the Iraqi Shiite government and to stop direct and indirect intervention – otherwise a severe war is waiting for you, ' al-Baghdadi said in a 50-minute videotape."

Iran trying to start a war with the U.S. , especially at its early stages of nuclear development, doesn't make sense. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad presides over a country that hates his regime and would be volatile to revolt in the circumstance of a war.
 
Just doesn't seem right to me.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:40
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group.
 
Yes Muslims are their biggest immigrant group. Their immigrant troubles are especially troublesome not just due to the number of Muslims coming, but to the rate at which they have children. While native English have a birthrate under 2.1 children per woman (replacement level), Muslim immigrants have one around 3 children per woman. Mohammad was the No. 2 most popular name for English boys this year and will soon be No. 1
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 31 2007 at 10:52
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

^ When I visited GB, I heard about a lot of Arab immigration. Perhaps that's the main group.
 
Yes Muslims are their biggest immigrant group. Their immigrant troubles are especially troublesome not just due to the number of Muslims coming, but to the rate at which they have children. While native English have a birthrate under 2.1 children per woman (replacement level), Muslim immigrants have one around 3 children per woman. Mohammad was the No. 2 most popular name for English boys this year and will soon be No. 1
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece
 
This is bothersome for one reason. Muslims seem to have the most violent fundamentalist modes and am I correct in saying this faction accounts for the greatest amount of terrorist activity? I am in no way saying all Muslims are terrorists, so please don't spin that idea.
 
I hate to be prejudice, but to me, a high concentration of Muslims in a non-Muslim society may be a recipe for trouble.


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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: August 01 2007 at 22:40
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

WOW....it sure is tough to tell who lies on the conservative/liberal ends here LOL
Someone care to discuss something besides illegal immigration?
 
Just a question...
 
Let's discus the importance of being earnest. and relate that to current society.TongueAngry
 
facts: politician's lie.Angry
 
ergo:öur political system is corrupt by default.Tongue
 
consequence. we need to create some new form of governmentStar


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 02 2007 at 22:06
But politicians are people, and people lie. Therefore any government consisting of people is corrupt by default.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 11:42
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hmmm....  I'll let you two duke it out on that end..

and take this issue on from the other end.....   what people fail to realize are it is well known that it takes an act of Congress to immigrate to this country.  When that is the case... no wall .... that is never going to be built anyway (the right has done enough damage to this country without making it more visibily into a police state)...is going to stem people from coming here.  Again...those calling for a wall live in the same dreamland as those who the fight the so called war on terror, thinking that avoiding the root cause of problems will solve the problem.   We have two solutions to the problem to eliminate illegal immigration......  become a police state and resemble the Iron Curtain or make legal immigration easy and take away any reason to come here illegally. No other choices will fix the problem.  Which one do you think becomes the country we claim to be....

Face it... a wall didn't stop people in Berlin from crossing it... and they frickin shot people... do you really think a wall will stop illegal immigration.  Of course you don't.... just like Iraq... you'll say you've done something to combat a problem.. and beg more time for a solution.. Time enough for those who put the damn wall up to spend their time at the public trough... thus leaving the problem for others.
 
I don't understand how building a wall is equivalent to a police state. A nation without borders ceases to be a nation at all. The U.S. has a duty spelled out in Article IV Section IV of the Constitution which says : "The United States shall garuntee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion." It is already failing in the latter part of that duty and will be spitting in the face of that agreement if the borders are just opened to anyone.
 
A wall will most certainly limit illegal immigration. Nobody is saying it will completely stop it. The next three routes to bring about stopping it are first overturning judicial oligarchies which have stopped the citizens of California, Arizona and other border states in passing legislation that will deny welfare benefits to illegal aliens. Next, the 14th Ammendent must be clarified so that it's indisputable that anyone born on U.S. soil is not an automatic citizen. And lastly anyone here illegally, anyone here on an expired visa, must be deported.
 
That for the most part will eliminate much illegal immigration. Other things like catch and release policies need to be ceased too but I don't think I need to lay down a whole platform.


I'm pretty sure "invasion" was referring to armed combat, and that you're overreacting to the illegal immigration issue. It's always been there, and it's only a "problem" now because Americans are looking for a scapegoat. Many of the white girls in my high school are apparently terrified of Hispanic men, and for no good reason (except: "I don't like the way they look at me." Guess what? Us white and black guys are looking at you in exactly the same way). In the 1840s, the scapegoat was the Irish. There were bars that had signs on the outside reading: "No dogs and no Irish." As most white Americans do, I have Irish blood. My ancestors were equated with dogs. And all of my ancestors, regardless of ethnicity, were immigrants. Immigration was a problem. And now we have bars that say "English Only", which is only a more subtle form of racism.

I have no problem with illegal immigration. It's just skipping a few bureaucratic steps, so you can make money to feed your poor family back in the home country. I don't really give a hoot, and I'm glad the illegal immigrants have the guts to do what it takes to give their families better lives. Because God knows my ancestors did the same thing. Immigrants shouldn't hate their fellow immigrants, and America is a country of immigrants.

Regardless of your political party, if you don't think that the illegal immigration "issue" is a completely fabricated sham, you are participating in a subtle xenophobia that has no place in this country.


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 12:15

The word invasion has nothing to do with armed combat. It only means to intrude or the entrance of something troublesome. The need for the term "invading armies" shows that invasion does not presuppose armed combat.

 

Illegal immigration hasn't always been there. It's largely a mid-20th century thing. Even so the level just of illegal immigration today blows all comparisons out of the water. The following are the levels of immigrants of Americas three largest immigrant groups that came here between 1607 and 1958

 

Germany - 6,798,3143

Italy - 5,017,625

Great Britain - 4,642,096

 

The estimated number of illegal immigrants in our country today is 12-20 million. Taking the absolute low ball of this figure there are more illegal immigrants in our country now than have ever legally emigrated here from Germany and Italy combined in America's history.  Instead of coming from a European culture which is much more similar to ours, making them more easily to assimilate, they nearly all come from a country with little history of assimilation into the U.S., from a country that carries a grudge against the U.S. and feels its lands were stolen by the U.S. when its country was young.

 

You're really changing subject with the Irish issue. Nobody is advocating discrimination here. I'm a 4th generation Irish immigrant, I understand how hearing those stories is emotional. I'm certainly not against this treatment of any citizen. However, the stark difference is the Irish came here legally and we are talking about people coming here illegally, breaking laws and with no right to reap the benefits of U.S. citizenship without being subject to the jurisdiction of the state.

 

Also, "English Only" signs are by no means a form of racism. What race are they discriminating against? The race of people that doesn't speak English? That doesn't exist. It's not discriminatory. Shop owners live in an English speaking country; they speak English. They do not want to be troubled catering to people and trying to understand people who don't know the language. Everyone else's descendants took the time to learn the English language and become a part of the country. An unwillingness to do so shows an unwillingness to abandons one's own traditions and become an American.

 

Your ancestors did not do the something. Your ancestors turned their backs forever on their own country, pledged allegiance to America, became an American blood and soul and forged a better life. They did not break into America, make no attempt to even learn its language let alone become an American, and exploit its economic superiority, and return to their home and family in the motherland that they still pledge their allegiance to.

 

If you think the illegal immigration issue is a shame I'd say you're un-American. Our founding fathers and every president up until JFK warned against illegal immigration and warned of the importance of assimilating. As Teddy Roosevelt said "

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities."

 

 



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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 12:31
^^^
Do you want to know how we can make there be less illegal immigrants? By making it so they can come here legally. Two weeks ago I stayed in Juarez for a mission trip and every Mexican that I talked to would love to come to america legally, but they cant, because Americans only want ritch white people in their country. The USA is NOT an english speaking country, we have no offitial language, infact German would have been the offitial language if we got one more vote back in the 1800's.
 
This is not the most immigrants we have ever had, it sounds like a lot but it is actually puny if you view it as a ratio, back when we first allowed immigration we had a 75% German population that only gave up thier culture because of WWI. The Mexicans still dont even make up 10% of our culture and they are assimilating fine, usually they become english speaking within a generation.


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 12:55
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The word invasion has nothing to do with armed combat. It only means to intrude or the entrance of something troublesome. The need for the term "invading armies" shows that invasion does not presuppose armed combat.

 

Illegal immigration hasn't always been there. It's largely a mid-20th century thing. Even so the level just of illegal immigration today blows all comparisons out of the water. The following are the levels of immigrants of Americas three largest immigrant groups that came here between 1607 and 1958

 

Germany - 6,798,3143

Italy - 5,017,625

Great Britain - 4,642,096

 

The estimated number of illegal immigrants in our country today is 12-20 million. Taking the absolute low ball of this figure there are more illegal immigrants in our country now than have ever legally emigrated here from Germany and Italy combined in America's history.  Instead of coming from a European culture which is much more similar to ours, making them more easily to assimilate, they nearly all come from a country with little history of assimilation into the U.S., from a country that carries a grudge against the U.S. and feels its lands were stolen by the U.S. when its country was young.


To be fair, the Mexican War was an imperialist, partisan war on the part of the USA. (The Whigs almost all opposed it). I'm not sure this war is still relevant today, or that the Mexican people are bitter about it. We get along rather jovially with the English, don't we? We beat them in *two* wars.

Secondly, to say that Mexican culture is not European in some sense is just inaccurate. The majority of the population of Mexico is of mixed native and Spanish blood, and is Catholic. Catholicism comes from Europe, and Spaniards do. They did blend with the natives, but it isn't at all out of line to say Mexico is quite European.

 

You're really changing subject with the Irish issue. Nobody is advocating discrimination here. I'm a 4th generation Irish immigrant, I understand how hearing those stories is emotional. I'm certainly not against this treatment of any citizen. However, the stark difference is the Irish came here legally and we are talking about people coming here illegally, breaking laws and with no right to reap the benefits of U.S. citizenship without being subject to the jurisdiction of the state.



But the similarity lies in the fact that they were driven here by poverty, and then ostracized by the dominant community, and blamed for things like crime and violence (and alcoholism, in the case of the Irish). The Irish were also distrusted for their Catholicism, and many said that because they were "Papists" they would not be able to assimilate.



I'm sure not all immigrants were patriotic Americans. It's just that countries like Ireland and Germany were frequently in bouts of famine and dictatorship.

 

Also, "English Only" signs are by no means a form of racism. What race are they discriminating against? The race of people that doesn't speak English? That doesn't exist. It's not discriminatory. Shop owners live in an English speaking country; they speak English. They do not want to be troubled catering to people and trying to understand people who don't know the language. Everyone else's descendants took the time to learn the English language and become a part of the country. An unwillingness to do so shows an unwillingness to abandons one's own traditions and become an American.



I agree that private property rights should allow people to speak or not speak whatever language while on their premises, but I do think the "English Only" movement is slightly ridiculous. Although I can't speak for bars, I know that the government should adapt to the people, and not the other way around. Government documents should be in as many languages as is practical.

 

Your ancestors did not do the something. Your ancestors turned their backs forever on their own country, pledged allegiance to America, became an American blood and soul and forged a better life. They did not break into America, make no attempt to even learn its language let alone become an American, and exploit its economic superiority, and return to their home and family in the motherland that they still pledge their allegiance to.



You make it sound like an immigrant conspiracy! They're just trying to feed their families, and give them the best lives possible. That's one evil plot that I find no problem with. Also, my ancestors weren't loyal to their former countries for one reason: economics. They gradually became patriots, through the generations, but I'm sure that most of them were just happy not to be living a terrible life of poverty in their old homes.



 

If you think the illegal immigration issue is a shame I'd say you're un-American. Our founding fathers and every president up until JFK warned against illegal immigration and warned of the importance of assimilating. As Teddy Roosevelt said "

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities."



Oh, please. Don't toss around that word, "un-American", it's just stupid. And TR was absolutely right. But we're not a tangle of squabbling nationalities. We're just a tangle of nationalities. Some of us, such as the black power folks, or Hispanics who hate whites on instinct, or whites who severely overreact to illegal immigration, are the ones that squabble.

 

 



Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 12:56
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

^^^
Do you want to know how we can make there be less illegal immigrants? By making it so they can come here legally. Two weeks ago I stayed in Juarez for a mission trip and every Mexican that I talked to would love to come to america legally, but they cant, because Americans only want ritch white people in their country. The USA is NOT an english speaking country, we have no offitial language, infact German would have been the offitial language if we got one more vote back in the 1800's.
 
This is not the most immigrants we have ever had, it sounds like a lot but it is actually puny if you view it as a ratio, back when we first allowed immigration we had a 75% German population that only gave up thier culture because of WWI. The Mexicans still dont even make up 10% of our culture and they are assimilating fine, usually they become english speaking within a generation.
 
Yes, then we can reduce murder by making killing illegal and stop the spread of AIDS by renaming the virus happy fun disease. The U.S. has no official language, but it is an English speaking country. If America only wants rich white people then why does our immigration consist almost all of non-white poor people. During the Great Wave our immigration was white, but almost completely poor.
 
Immigration currently accounts for (only counting legal) 11.1% (ass of 2000). The all time high percentage in American history is 14.8% in 1890. In response to this in 1890 severe restrictions were placed on immigration afterwards limiting immigration in terms of numbers, education, and nationality. When Cinco De Mayo has become a recognized holiday in some states, I don't know how you can assimilation has happened finee.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 12:58
Now I must be off...I'm going to the local elementary school to volunteer to teach immigrant school children English.

Wink


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:04
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

^^^
Do you want to know how we can make there be less illegal immigrants? By making it so they can come here legally. Two weeks ago I stayed in Juarez for a mission trip and every Mexican that I talked to would love to come to america legally, but they cant, because Americans only want ritch white people in their country. The USA is NOT an english speaking country, we have no offitial language, infact German would have been the offitial language if we got one more vote back in the 1800's.
 
This is not the most immigrants we have ever had, it sounds like a lot but it is actually puny if you view it as a ratio, back when we first allowed immigration we had a 75% German population that only gave up thier culture because of WWI. The Mexicans still dont even make up 10% of our culture and they are assimilating fine, usually they become english speaking within a generation.
 
Yes, then we can reduce murder by making killing illegal and stop the spread of AIDS by renaming the virus happy fun disease. The U.S. has no official language, but it is an English speaking country. If America only wants rich white people then why does our immigration consist almost all of non-white poor people. During the Great Wave our immigration was white, but almost completely poor.
 
Immigration currently accounts for (only counting legal) 11.1% (ass of 2000). The all time high percentage in American history is 14.8% in 1890. In response to this in 1890 severe restrictions were placed on immigration afterwards limiting immigration in terms of numbers, education, and nationality. When Cinco De Mayo has become a recognized holiday in some states, I don't know how you can assimilation has happened finee.
OK but St.Patricks day is a reconised holiday.
 
Your first comment dosen't make sence to me. I simply think we should make it easyer for people to get here, we need thier labor they need the cash, I see no problem here. There is a huge supply of mexicans willing to work for low wages and a huge demand for workers willing to work for low wages. I'm not a capitallist but even I can see how allowing them to come here to work makes sence. its not a hard consept.
 
actually it is easyer for educated people to immigrate here legally, they are our formost priority, but they should have to wait in line like evryone else, after all we have plent of doctors and scientists, but not enough people willing to work for minimum wadge in dangourus jobs.


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:16
Originally posted by Hirgwath Hirgwath wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The word invasion has nothing to do with armed combat. It only means to intrude or the entrance of something troublesome. The need for the term "invading armies" shows that invasion does not presuppose armed combat.

 

Illegal immigration hasn't always been there. It's largely a mid-20th century thing. Even so the level just of illegal immigration today blows all comparisons out of the water. The following are the levels of immigrants of Americas three largest immigrant groups that came here between 1607 and 1958

 

Germany - 6,798,3143

Italy - 5,017,625

Great Britain - 4,642,096

 

The estimated number of illegal immigrants in our country today is 12-20 million. Taking the absolute low ball of this figure there are more illegal immigrants in our country now than have ever legally emigrated here from Germany and Italy combined in America's history.  Instead of coming from a European culture which is much more similar to ours, making them more easily to assimilate, they nearly all come from a country with little history of assimilation into the U.S., from a country that carries a grudge against the U.S. and feels its lands were stolen by the U.S. when its country was young.


To be fair, the Mexican War was an imperialist, partisan war on the part of the USA. (The Whigs almost all opposed it). I'm not sure this war is still relevant today, or that the Mexican people are bitter about it. We get along rather jovially with the English, don't we? We beat them in *two* wars.
 
A 2002 Zogby Poll asked Mexicans "Do you agree or disagree that the territory of the U.S. Southwest belongs to Mexico" 58% percent agreed and only 28% disagreed.
 
The mission statement of MEChA, a nationally recognized student organiztion formerly chaired by current LA mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, states:
"With our heart in our hands and hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Beofre the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan"
 
Yes no hard feelings.
 

Secondly, to say that Mexican culture is not European in some sense is just inaccurate. The majority of the population of Mexico is of mixed native and Spanish blood, and is Catholic. Catholicism comes from Europe, and Spaniards do. They did blend with the natives, but it isn't at all out of line to say Mexico is quite European.
 
Suggest to a Mexican that their culture is European in nature or similar to Spanish culture. They certainly don't take kindly to it.
 

You're really changing subject with the Irish issue. Nobody is advocating discrimination here. I'm a 4th generation Irish immigrant, I understand how hearing those stories is emotional. I'm certainly not against this treatment of any citizen. However, the stark difference is the Irish came here legally and we are talking about people coming here illegally, breaking laws and with no right to reap the benefits of U.S. citizenship without being subject to the jurisdiction of the state.



But the similarity lies in the fact that they were driven here by poverty, and then ostracized by the dominant community, and blamed for things like crime and violence (and alcoholism, in the case of the Irish). The Irish were also distrusted for their Catholicism, and many said that because they were "Papists" they would not be able to assimilate.

 
They left their home countries for good, illegals from Mexico do not, they travel freely between the two. They carry with them Mexican citizenship and still vote in Mexican elections. They come here illegally. Totally different than coming here legally. The Irish did bring much drunkeness and violence with us when we immigrated here. Paddywaggons are called so for good reason. Again, not saying this justifies the discrimination we met, but it wasn't some fabrication.


I'm sure not all immigrants were patriotic Americans. It's just that countries like Ireland and Germany were frequently in bouts of famine and dictatorship.
 
I think you have to be to cast of everything of your old country and never plan to return.
 

Also, "English Only" signs are by no means a form of racism. What race are they discriminating against? The race of people that doesn't speak English? That doesn't exist. It's not discriminatory. Shop owners live in an English speaking country; they speak English. They do not want to be troubled catering to people and trying to understand people who don't know the language. Everyone else's descendants took the time to learn the English language and become a part of the country. An unwillingness to do so shows an unwillingness to abandons one's own traditions and become an American.



I agree that private property rights should allow people to speak or not speak whatever language while on their premises, but I do think the "English Only" movement is slightly ridiculous. Although I can't speak for bars, I know that the government should adapt to the people, and not the other way around. Government documents should be in as many languages as is practical.

 

Which is one. One is the most practical. If you have a nation speaking two different languages, you'll soon find that you have two nations.

Your ancestors did not do the something. Your ancestors turned their backs forever on their own country, pledged allegiance to America, became an American blood and soul and forged a better life. They did not break into America, make no attempt to even learn its language let alone become an American, and exploit its economic superiority, and return to their home and family in the motherland that they still pledge their allegiance to.



You make it sound like an immigrant conspiracy! They're just trying to feed their families, and give them the best lives possible. That's one evil plot that I find no problem with. Also, my ancestors weren't loyal to their former countries for one reason: economics. They gradually became patriots, through the generations, but I'm sure that most of them were just happy not to be living a terrible life of poverty in their old homes.

 
The willingness to die for a country comes out of more than economics. Most of them came from terrible lives of poverty in Ireland to slightly less terrible lives of poverty and alienation in America, but they still loved the country.

 

If you think the illegal immigration issue is a shame I'd say you're un-American. Our founding fathers and every president up until JFK warned against illegal immigration and warned of the importance of assimilating. As Teddy Roosevelt said "

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities."



Oh, please. Don't toss around that word, "un-American", it's just stupid. And TR was absolutely right. But we're not a tangle of squabbling nationalities. We're just a tangle of nationalities. Some of us, such as the black power folks, or Hispanics who hate whites on instinct, or whites who severely overreact to illegal immigration, are the ones that squabble.

Don't toss around racist and xenophobic and I won't toss around un-American. TR was talking about the danger of having nationalities. We're Americans, that's one nationality. The demands to recognize a different language, play to a different culture, show the squabling. America is supposed to mold the immigrants to its culture; not have the immigrants mold America to their culture.  The words of Teddy again

 "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts "native" before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else" 

 



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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:20
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Your first comment dosen't make sence to me. I simply think we should make it easyer for people to get here, we need thier labor they need the cash, I see no problem here. There is a huge supply of mexicans willing to work for low wages and a huge demand for workers willing to work for low wages. I'm not a capitallist but even I can see how allowing them to come here to work makes sence. its not a hard consept.
 
actually it is easyer for educated people to immigrate here legally, they are our formost priority, but they should have to wait in line like evryone else, after all we have plent of doctors and scientists, but not enough people willing to work for minimum wadge in dangourus jobs.
 
Has anyone addressed the Health Care issued with these immigrants? Sure they work for low wages but also do not get benefits, just pay, and I assume it is legal pay and not under the table. Who pays their health care?
 


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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:23
Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

^^^
Do you want to know how we can make there be less illegal immigrants? By making it so they can come here legally. Two weeks ago I stayed in Juarez for a mission trip and every Mexican that I talked to would love to come to america legally, but they cant, because Americans only want ritch white people in their country. The USA is NOT an english speaking country, we have no offitial language, infact German would have been the offitial language if we got one more vote back in the 1800's.
 
This is not the most immigrants we have ever had, it sounds like a lot but it is actually puny if you view it as a ratio, back when we first allowed immigration we had a 75% German population that only gave up thier culture because of WWI. The Mexicans still dont even make up 10% of our culture and they are assimilating fine, usually they become english speaking within a generation.
 
Yes, then we can reduce murder by making killing illegal and stop the spread of AIDS by renaming the virus happy fun disease. The U.S. has no official language, but it is an English speaking country. If America only wants rich white people then why does our immigration consist almost all of non-white poor people. During the Great Wave our immigration was white, but almost completely poor.
 
Immigration currently accounts for (only counting legal) 11.1% (ass of 2000). The all time high percentage in American history is 14.8% in 1890. In response to this in 1890 severe restrictions were placed on immigration afterwards limiting immigration in terms of numbers, education, and nationality. When Cinco De Mayo has become a recognized holiday in some states, I don't know how you can assimilation has happened finee.
OK but St.Patricks day is a reconised holiday.
 
Celebrated, not recognized.
 
Your first comment dosen't make sence to me. I simply think we should make it easyer for people to get here, we need thier labor they need the cash, I see no problem here. There is a huge supply of mexicans willing to work for low wages and a huge demand for workers willing to work for low wages. I'm not a capitallist but even I can see how allowing them to come here to work makes sence. its not a hard consept.
 
I'm saying that legalizing something doesn't remove the problem. Illegal immigration is a net drain on the economy.  The only ones who benefit from the cheap immigrant labor are corprate america. Meanwhile they undercut the wages and steal jobs from our lower class. Controling illegal immigration has nearly unanimous support among lower class blacks, despite them being hardcore democrats, they oppose because theyre the ones suffering from it.
 
actually it is easyer for educated people to immigrate here legally, they are our formost priority, but they should have to wait in line like evryone else, after all we have plent of doctors and scientists, but not enough people willing to work for minimum wadge in dangourus jobs.
 
They do, hell listen to what Raff was saying about her own experiance.


-------------
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:23
Well said, Equality (and Teddy)

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:25
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Your first comment dosen't make sence to me. I simply think we should make it easyer for people to get here, we need thier labor they need the cash, I see no problem here. There is a huge supply of mexicans willing to work for low wages and a huge demand for workers willing to work for low wages. I'm not a capitallist but even I can see how allowing them to come here to work makes sence. its not a hard consept.
 
actually it is easyer for educated people to immigrate here legally, they are our formost priority, but they should have to wait in line like evryone else, after all we have plent of doctors and scientists, but not enough people willing to work for minimum wadge in dangourus jobs.
 
Has anyone addressed the Health Care issued with these immigrants? Sure they work for low wages but also do not get benefits, just pay, and I assume it is legal pay and not under the table. Who pays their health care?
 
 
Nearly all their pay is under the table. Their medical costs are covered by social programs.
 
I'm taking a break I'll be back later tonight.


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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "


Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 03 2007 at 13:31
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Proletariat Proletariat wrote:

^^^
Do you want to know how we can make there be less illegal immigrants? By making it so they can come here legally. Two weeks ago I stayed in Juarez for a mission trip and every Mexican that I talked to would love to come to america legally, but they cant, because Americans only want ritch white people in their country. The USA is NOT an english speaking country, we have no offitial language, infact German would have been the offitial language if we got one more vote back in the 1800's.
 
This is not the most immigrants we have ever had, it sounds like a lot but it is actually puny if you view it as a ratio, back when we first allowed immigration we had a 75% German population that only gave up thier culture because of WWI. The Mexicans still dont even make up 10% of our culture and they are assimilating fine, usually they become english speaking within a generation.
 
Yes, then we can reduce murder by making killing illegal and stop the spread of AIDS by renaming the virus happy fun disease. The U.S. has no official language, but it is an English speaking country. If America only wants rich white people then why does our immigration consist almost all of non-white poor people. During the Great Wave our immigration was white, but almost completely poor.
 
Immigration currently accounts for (only counting legal) 11.1% (ass of 2000). The all time high percentage in American history is 14.8% in 1890. In response to this in 1890 severe restrictions were placed on immigration afterwards limiting immigration in terms of numbers, education, and nationality. When Cinco De Mayo has become a recognized holiday in some states, I don't know how you can assimilation has happened finee.
OK but St.Patricks day is a reconised holiday.
 
Celebrated, not recognized.
 
All I see are people marching down the street carying another countries flags.
 
Your first comment dosen't make sence to me. I simply think we should make it easyer for people to get here, we need thier labor they need the cash, I see no problem here. There is a huge supply of mexicans willing to work for low wages and a huge demand for workers willing to work for low wages. I'm not a capitallist but even I can see how allowing them to come here to work makes sence. its not a hard consept.
 
I'm saying that legalizing something doesn't remove the problem. Illegal immigration is a net drain on the economy.  The only ones who benefit from the cheap immigrant labor are corprate america. Meanwhile they undercut the wages and steal jobs from our lower class. Controling illegal immigration has nearly unanimous support among lower class blacks, despite them being hardcore democrats, they oppose because theyre the ones suffering from it.
 
Hey I was trying to argue from a point of view you would understand, the only way to help the proletariat (working class) is to force the borgoise (upper class) to work, there should never be such a thing as a corporation, immigration has nothing to do with it, borders are just a bunch of superimposed bullsh*t.
 
actually it is easyer for educated people to immigrate here legally, they are our formost priority, but they should have to wait in line like evryone else, after all we have plent of doctors and scientists, but not enough people willing to work for minimum wadge in dangourus jobs.
 
They do, hell listen to what Raff was saying about her own experiance.
 
I was only talking about the laws that make it easyer not about a particular example.
You want to fix one of our problems? you would need to change the whole system.


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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob


Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 03:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes no European country has a fenced border but a majority of them are bound together by the EU. Contractors will build the fence here in America.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with giving illegals here a chance to receive the proper documentation, as long as they reimburse the government for back taxes and for breaking our laws, but allowing them to remain in the country while this happens is de facto immigration.



I live in Finland and European Union has been interesting experiment for our nation. In theory all citizens of EU are free to choose which country they go work at. Most of Finns want to stay at Finland. Our country has high unemployment rate and this causes all kinds of problems. Now people are also starting to fear that we get immigrants from low income countries and that these people will "steal" our jobs because they are happy with lower wages than we are. I don't know what is gonna happen in the next 10 years. But one thing is sure, those generations that were born right after Second World War are now in their 60s and they need young people to take care of them. This builds huge challenges for the health care and social security system.



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Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 04:44
I believe that in Usa is possible  have other languages like in Canada with  french and  english ,like Belgium with french and dutch ,OR Suisse with french,german,italian etc...Bush only wants the mexicans if they go to Irak and Afghanistan


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 12:19
Originally posted by meinmatrix meinmatrix wrote:

  But one thing is sure, those generations that were born right after Second World War are now in their 60s and they need young people to take care of them. This builds huge challenges for the health care and social security system.


This is, in my mind, the biggest problem facing the United States.  Our entitlement infrastructure is collapsing - Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke was quoted as saying it's in a "death spiral".


Posted By: meinmatrix
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 13:08
And not many of immigrants can be doctors or lawyers so it comes more to a question of who is gonna do the heavy dirty work?



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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 20:51
This thread is too civil. Someone needs to counter an argument with degrading remarks like the good old days.


Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 04 2007 at 20:54
Originally posted by 1800iareyay 1800iareyay wrote:

This thread is too civil. Someone needs to counter an argument with degrading remarks like the good old days.


hahahha... that is why I have stayed away from this thread.


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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip



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