Robert Wyatt or Phil Collins
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Topic: Robert Wyatt or Phil Collins
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Robert Wyatt or Phil Collins
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 19:34
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Both were drummers involved in bands that predate their PA included bands. Both were composers, lyricists, and vocalists. Both have voiced an appreciation for pop music, and both have been involved in jazz fusion. Both were in important bands in the archives before pursuing solo careers. Both were drummers but left it (at one time) for different reasons: Wyatt because of his accident, and Collins for aesthetic reasons, and so that he could easier focus on his role as a songwriter and singer. etc. My question is not who is the more creative, talented, or innovative. Nor is it who had the bigger impact on music. It's not who was the better musician, singer, lyricist, or composer. It's not who has more integrity, or who you prefer. It's not about who was the bigger force in progressive music, who had the better bands and the better solo career. It's not about who is better looking, a nicer guy, is more likely to play Santa or Oliver twist. I'm not asking which provokes a stronger reaction. It's not about a lot of things. I'm sure you'll be able of lots of things it is not about too. So here's what it is about... The question is: which artist have you mentioned or discussed more at PA? Based on recollection. And I mean specifically talked about: just mentioning projects they were in is not enough, but posting in a topic about either one specifically is. I'm mildly curious to see the percentages even if a silly exercise. Of course Genesis is a more popular band than Soft Machine, and proggers are more likely to prefer solo Wyatt than solo Collins. And of course Collins elicits a strong reaction from many (but please no "bashing" of either artist here). ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Replies:
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 19:42
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I'm pretty sure I discuss Wyatt more than Collins. BTW Wyatt didn't leave the Softs because of his accident, he left for personal reasons a few months earlier. -------------   |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 19:45
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I know, I do seem to remember that he left Matching Mole due to his accident, though. Weren't they touring at the time of his accident?
------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 19:47
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Of course he didn't. He was in Matching Mole in between :) Edit: DOH! -------------  'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 19:51
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Yeah, indeed, he'd left Soft Machine well before; he hadn't liked the direction they were going amongst other things.
------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 20:06
| Phil Collins |
Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 21:50
| I LOVE Wyatt and The Soft Machine, but I suppose I'll say Collins. |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 21:51
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I get tired of people slamming Phil because his solo stuff became commercial. He's twice the drummer & singer that Robert Wyatt ever was. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 22:16
| Don't really know too much about Wyatt. I don't have too much care for Collins outside of Gabriel Genesis. |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 22:17
Them's fightin' words. ------------- |
Dr. Occulator wrote:Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: December 03 2007 at 22:26
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I started an infamous add Phil Collins to PA thread and I have never spoke of Robert Wyatt (until now) so easily I have spoke more about Phil Collins than I have Robert Wyatt. ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 00:19
That's why I made this a no-bashing thread, and a reason why I asked such a non-confrontational and uninteresting question. And many questions would come across as loaded -- they both have their strengths, I feel. But I'd rather thought that Collins solo career started commercial, rather than becoming commercial. But I'm no expert. He certainly found much commercial success quickly. I think Phil Collins was and is a very good drummer and singer (I happen to generally prefer his voice to Gabriel's in Genesis though I find Gabriel's solo career much more enjoyable than Collins). I happen to prefer Robert Wyatt's career to Phil Collins and Gabriel (not just solo career), but then I'm a big Canterbury fan, and Robert Wyatt is a key figure in Canterbury -- more than Phil Collins is a key figure in symphonic Prog. I don't know for sure who was the better drummer (but Phil Collins commonly gets listed amongst the best Prog drummers, unlike Robert Wyatt). I like Wyatt's style, but also like Collins. Collins has a voice that more people would like, certainly, and from a more traditional point of view, I'm sure it would be generally considered better. Technically better by common standards, I would think, but Wyatt conveys something to me, an honesty and immediacy that appeals to me (it's not that polished). I can feel his presence as a person more, somehow (it seems more personable and real for me). Collins tends to be very polished, and I like the music, but he leaves me a little colder -- like he's more distant from the audience (which he is when he has played stadiums), whereas one can imagine Wyatt playing small smoky venues and chatting with the audience in a more intimate experience. I just find him more personable, and personally appealing (a big part of that is the unrefined or unpolished, whatever word fits best, vocal delivery). Maybe the most important thing to me is the differences in attitude in how they express themselves through the music/ lyrics. I've long liked many songs by Collins, by the way, so this is no real criticism of Collins, nor does it bother me that he found such commercial success -- he's VERY good at what he does. I love all of Wyatt's albums -- the humour, whimsy, pathos, observations and the music, but also the personality as I see it. There are just different ways to see things. I happen to prefer Wyatt's compositions and career path on the whole to Collins, but Collins has way more admirers (and I admire his talents too). Anyway, I've mentioned both plenty of times, but over the last year I think I've mentioned Wyatt much more. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 00:27
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By name, Wyatt. I don't talk much about Collins solo. Those threads get so stupid, while on the other hand I'm really enjoying what I hear from Wyatt.
-------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 01:05
Ah, yes, a classic. He is the only member of Genesis whose solo career is not in the archives, is he not? Well him and the other drummers like Silver and Mayhew whose careers outside of Genesis I know nothing of (nor if they released solo albums). But of the better known members, he is the odd man out.
Stupid can be fun -- some of those threads are quite funny; but then there's usually a fair bit of rancor in them. I myself played a part in a recently locked thread -- thought my post was kind of amusing. Some people just take things too personally or seriously at times (including me). I find Wyatt quite inspirational. He seems to be a man of conviction, and comes across as sincere, with good wit to boot, which is part of the charm. I also find his music very satisfying. And Phil Collins was terrific in South Park! ->  ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: proger
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 07:28
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robert more real for me... ------------- ...live for tomorrow... |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 07:33
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I actually like them both, but Wyatt has stayed more consistently progressive in his output, whereas Collins really gave up on it. So I of course voted for Collins (kidding).
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 07:35
Are we talking the episode with Phil Collins' hill or did I miss one? Good poll BTW, I much prefer an apples to apples comparison to an apples to oranges.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 07:43
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I've mentioned Wyatt more.
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 08:01
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I discussed Wyatt slightly more, if for nothing else, for different recommendation threads.
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 08:20
Less is more  ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 10:19
More or less. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 12:10
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Robert Wyatt, of course.
Phil Collins has a solo career I'm not interested in at all. Phil Collins was a member of a band each mentioning of which causes me to turn the page (there are plenty of such pages here...). Naturally, I have no reasons to mention him.
On the other side, I like the Canterbury scene music very much. I have many albums by different bands and artists, including Soft Machine, Matching Mole, Robert Wyatt solo and even Michael Mantler. Naturally, again, that I discussed and mentioned him much more often (even started a thread on Robert Wyatt once...)
Eugene
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 13:05
| I've got nothing against Phil C. AT ALL, and as far as I can tell he's a better drummer than Robert W. used to be - his playing with Brand X is just awesome. But calling Phil a better SINGER is a step too far! Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've devoted more time and space here to RW, and I plan to continue that way. |
Posted By: paloz
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 13:07
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W(h)yatt?
Because he never sold himself to pop music;
Because he had some rhythms that Collins would never imagine;
Because he's a more interesting singer;
Because he's Wyatt.
So, which is my vote?
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 13:23
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Wyatt, because i like Soft Machine better than Genesis.
Because he sings & plays drums better.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 13:53
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Fassbinder: I'd like to get Micheal Mantler's Many Have no Speech, Bjork's Medulla for his collaboration on "Submarine." And his stuff with David Gilmour is interesting ("Comfortably Numb" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YpfzmAQvoc&feature=related - click -- too bad he has to read the lyrics. I much prefer his contribution to " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbCguMKz_wY - Then I close my Eyes" ). And not to leave out Phil Collins, there's his contribution/ collaboration on the hip-hop group Bone Thugs-N-Harmony remake of "Take me Home" on their album Thug World Order. It was so popular in the UK, from what I've read, that the "Thugs" named Collins an honorary member, giving him the name "Chrome Bone". Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBLAWIlAz0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBLAWIlAz0
Thanks... There were two consecutive episodes which lampooned Phil Collins... "Cartman's Silly Hate Crime" (with the hill) and Timmy 2000 (where the kids were all on Ritalin for ADD, Timmy with band was to open a concert, but Phil Collins did instead, and all the kids in their complacent state watched Phil Collins until they were given Ritalout to reverse the effect of the drugs and he was booed off stage). I've always rather wished that episode had ended with "Squonk" -- love that rockin' song, but I wouldn't expect it as they were parodying "You'll be in my Heart" (and parodying Phil Collins generally). He's always clutching his Oscar because Phil Collins got an Oscar for that song, instead of it going to the South Park movie's "Blame Canada" which also was nominated. Paloz: I'm guessing your vote is Wyatt, but some choose to talk about Phil Collins a lot because they perceive him to have "sold himself" to pop music; and believe that he has tarnished Prog's creds somehow (by moving to pop but also due to comments that are not exactly complimentary towards the Prog movement). ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 14:26
Thanks for the link, Logan! It was nice, especially in comparison with "Comfortably Numb" I was already acquainted with -- that one was simply painful, for me.
As for Michael Mantler -- I have only The Hapless Child. A fascinating album... You're acquanted with this, aren't you?
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Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 14:55
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I get sick of people that put down Phil because his solo albums and pop orentation
He's better drummer & singer that Robert Wyatt ever was.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 14:55
I'm only passingly familiar with the album. I forgot about that. I've only heard samples before, but listening now to the album samples at http://www.amazon.com/Hapless-Child-Other-Inscrutable-Stories/dp/B000026FK6 - amazon , I'm reminded of how much I need this. Terrific! Thanks for mentioning it. And his work on "Comfortably Numb" is a rather low point for me, as is his rendition of The Monkees "I'm a Believer" (I know the story behind that). He's human, and the humanness adds to the Wyatt charm for me, in a way, so I can accept the good with the poor. EDIT:
Ah yes, we went through this before. 
------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 15:15
I saw that clip. Rather embarrassing for Wyatt, I'd think.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 15:26
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Slartibartfast: Have you seen Wyatt's rendition of of the Monkees' "I'm a Believer?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8_lr8HFLEY - click (with Nick Mason on drums, I believe) ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 17:24
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EDIT:
Ah yes, we went through this before.
I guess I should be a little more conciliatory. I do enjoy Robert Wyatt creative & original talent. To put it another way they are somewhat like apples & oranges: Phil is definitely more mainstream and Robert is definitely more out-there. Both are great musicians. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 18:00
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Collins.
I have a fairly complete Robert Wyatt collection and precisely no Phil Collins solo albums at all. I regard Robert Wyatt as a national treasure and I find his music, politics and general outlook pretty close to ideal, but I haven't discussed him that much on PA.
I have, however, made numerous posts pointing out Collin's resemblance to Bob Hoskins, both Mitchell brothers off Eastenders, Jimi Somerville, Mel Smith, 2 of Right said Fred and just about any other semi famous slap head. I have also acknowledged his talent as a drummer (especially his work with Brand X) and as a Genesis front man up to and including Duke. But he's still a bald  with an unforgivably bad solo career.------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Barla
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 21:00
Collins! Great drummer, and a talented composer despite what many people say here. No Jacket Required is such a great album! And, well, I've always liked very much post-Gabriel Genesis. Playing good commercial stuff doesn't mean you're a talentless or bad musician. People here tend to confuse those things.  Anyway, it's just my opinion.------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Barla/?chartstyle=LastfmMyspace">  
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Posted By: Teh_Slippermenz
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 21:58
Exactly, just because you play pop doesn't mean you're a bad musician. While I'm not a big fan of "No Jacket Required", I do like a lot of Collins's compositions, although I grew up listening to Collins and a cassette copy of "We Can't Dance". Hell, I didn't even know Peter Gabriel was even associated with Genesis until last year! Even then, I didn't know Genesis by anything except "We Can't Dance", and that "Land of Confusion" song. BTW, Genesis didn't really go pop until "Genesis" (even then, they STILL played prog with "Second Home by the Sea" and "Domino", etc.), Abacab is progressive, but it depends on the piece. "Man on the Corner" is pop. "Dodo/Lurker" is progressive rock. |
Posted By: Lota
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:16
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Phillip would be my choice no doubt. ------------- And In The End, The Love You Take, Is Equal To The Love You Make |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:28
^ Because you've got a whole Lota love for Phil, I hope. 
Szyzgy: I'm surprised, I had you pegged as more of a Phil Collins/ Barry Manilow/ Kenny-G kind of guy. ;) His resemblance to those balding individuals is uncanny, I must say. Incidentally, it's unknown that he was Bruce Willis' stunt double in the Die Hard films and that he had secretly replaced Patrick Stewart by the turn of Star Trek: The Next Generation's second season. Partially due to Collins extensive acting experience -- which includes such highlights as his turn as the loveble Cockney pickpocket Artful Dodger and the lovable Cockney burglar Buster -- but mostly due to the lack of hair, no one noticed the switch beyond Picard's sudden cockney-infused inflections and slang. And that's a load of old pony.
You mean they're both fruits  , sort of, or both kind of fruity? But seriously, nice sentiments. Both are very different, but I can enjoy both (my tastes are quite eclectic).
Indeed, I think he's very talented, and going pop in no way diminishes the talent. As is often said, it's very hard to write a good, successful pop tune. "Genesis didn't really go pop until "Genesis.'" Yes, I think that's when the bubble burst with a resounding POP - no weasel required, though some seem to need someone to blame. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Anyway, it's just my opinion.Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:30
oh come on now...  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:31
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^ I really don't know how anyone can resist that lovable face.
------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:33
another one down on the unofficial list of bands you would never expect to find mentioned here at PA's ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 04 2007 at 22:36
hahhaha.. yeah.... a national treasure indeed... and what is our national treasure...hmmm... how about a ..errr... face off.... v.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 05 2007 at 13:02
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^ Ha-ha, Micky, seems to me that both could benefit from a nasal extension (Jackson much more of course; he may lack a nose, but at least he has the hair extensions). The old false nose trick. 
 Or with a little proboscic surgery and fur extensions, Phil could look like this:  Or is that a before surgery shot? I forget. I suddenly have a strong urge to pump up that saggy nose with some air guitar; looks so deflated. Wyatt wins in the "honker" category; blow that horn.  On second thought, this Phil Collins (see link http://www.philcollinsbigband.com/ - HERE ) wins in the trumpet category. Collins was a model, incidentally, early in his life, and I was just being silly earlier in this post, of course. So no flaming... youth. More trivia: Collins had been in a a band as a teen called Flaming Youth (one of the worst band names I've heard): See a video of Flaming Youth here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMeBni0L9k - CLICK "You may think it sentimental crap" (to quote Wyatt from "O Caroline") but I rather like it. An auger of things to come. *gets the sinking feeling that with this post might be the ultimate thread-killer* As an excuse for an oranges and lemons poll (both citrus fruit and both can be enjoyed), I feel that I approached the "Vander or Shuldiner" poll more satisfyingly. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:31
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^ Lamest post ever! (with the possible exception of this one). Today I have mentioned Collins name more than Wyatt. ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: Dr. Prog
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:37
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more trivia---Collins played the Artful Dodger in stage plays as a teenager, and also was in a movie called Calamity the Cow as a teenager.
Collins wins.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 18:30
By the way, I think Wyatt and the primate resemble each other more, but I like Wyatt's solo music much better.  Saw a brief clip from Calamity in the A History of Genesis video. Phil had his prog phase, I wonder if it's over?------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: May 13 2008 at 18:43
| Collins. I never discussed Wyatt, even though I like some of his music. |
Posted By: bang!
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 01:56
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for cockney w**ker? collins, hands down. for every other thing from singer to drummer to songwriter to artist to human being?....... how can you DARE to ask this question????
------------- glen- "funny world..." h.i. "damn funny." glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..." h.i. "i'd buy one..." |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 02:52
He WAS twice the drummer that Wyatt was.
Maybe half again the singer.
But not even close to touching Wyatt as a solo artist.
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Posted By: Zargus
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 05:32
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Im a canterbury nut so i whuld gues its Wyatt, or i hope that caus hes much more intresting and worthy of discution. ------------- 
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Posted By: bang!
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 05:42
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twice the drummer? what do you need from drums? robert wyatt is to phil collins what elvin jones is to gene krupa. no, you wouldn't wany wyatt in your friday night bar cover band, singing OR drumming, but if you were an actual composer of actual music, who would you want interpreting your work? please.
------------- glen- "funny world..." h.i. "damn funny." glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..." h.i. "i'd buy one..." |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 05:44
IYHO surely ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:25
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Well I suppose in an actual fight Phil could always tip Robert over.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 13:34
| I would guess I discuss Wyatt more...I don't care enough about Genesis or PC to discuss them with any regularity. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 16 2008 at 16:54
Well, it is a silly question (just an excuse for an oranges and lemons poll), but I see Collins mentioned more than Wyatt, and there is much more heated debate involving Collins' career than Wyatt's. If it weren't for Genesis, and Brand X to a lesser extent, I don't think Collins would get much respect (or scorn) around these parts, but Wyatt would be still be considered grandly if Soft Machine and Matching Mole was not taken into account -- mind you, their paths would have been different had those projects not happened, so not much point in thinking about that. A different poll I considered that involved these artists was: Flaming Youth vs. The Wilde Flowers ------------- Just a fanboy passin' through. |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 15:05
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I'm here just to name a winner: Well, answering the question: Wyatt, I like him and I discuss him more than Collins, because I don't like Collins. The few times I've discussed Collins, was for bashing him (hum, that makes me wonder if I've talked more about Collins...)------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 15:16
Since you put the question so specifically, the answer is neither; I haven't been on the forums that long and don't remember having talked about either specifically. That said, if I had been here longer and had even had the chance to talk about those two guys, the answer would certainly be Collins: I hold him in high regard not only for his work with Genesis, but also with Brand X, for the one track he did with Mike Oldfield, for various other session work and also, to a certain extent, for his solo career! That's not to say I don't acknowledge Wyatt. While I've never really been a big Soft Machine fan, I seriously like his album Rock Bottom; that alone would be enough for me to hold him in high regard. (Admittedly, the only other solo albums of his that I've heard are The End Of An Ear and Shleep, neither of which I remember much about!) But yeah, broadly speaking, Collins. He's an amazing drummer and singer and songwriter and entertainer and his solo output is not nearly as bad as some prog fans would have it. (Still voted neither since the question was worded so specifically.) |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 16:56
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Phil did the drumming on some of my favourite albums ever, and I feel that Genesis could not have had a better secondary vocalist. His lead vocals occasionally don't work for me, but Wyatt's don't hit either in some cases, and both have done great stuff. I'd say Wyatt's probably the better singer and songwriter, though. So, Phil gets the vote. Just. Ahehe... reading skills, yes? Discussed Phil more, by a fair margin. Talked about Wyatt a bit in the SR, and the what're you listening to? thread, but that's it. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 17:53
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Well, I have to say Wyatt's still putting out good original albums, but I don't know about Phil. Any Phil phans care to enlighten me (not a Phil hater BTW) (yet too lazy to do the research ) ?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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