Transatlantic Virus
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47521
Printed Date: May 13 2025 at 02:58
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Topic: Transatlantic Virus
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Subject: Transatlantic Virus
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 18:27
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There's a few bands these days that have what I call the Transatlantic Virus so-called because http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=337 - Transatlantic is a compilation of members of Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, and Marillion, all of whom have this problem (Dream Theater occasionally does this too but in a different way, I'll get to that later.) Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings have many influences with 70s classic era prog rock. Unfortunately, it really sounds like they have no ideas of their own. Don't get me wrong, the bands have a unique edge on their sound but they have too many pop songs (which sounds like an attempt to commercialize) and many prog songs don't have unique arrangements, at least, SB doesn't I haven't heard as much Flower Kings as I'd like.
Marillion, which started out as a very innovative neo-prog band, has started to sound like they have this problem too. Especially with Marbles, which has many pop songs and really doesn't have any new ideas. Dream Theater is a bit different because they are metal, but lately (with Systematic Chaos) it sounds like they have started to immitate the bands that immitate the sound they've themselves created. Again, it doesn't appy as much to DT but they're also running out of ideas and trying to become more commercialized.
So...what you guys think?
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Replies:
Posted By: burritounit
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 19:21
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well I haven't heard all the bands you've mentioned all except for Transatlsntic and DT. As for DT I kind of did noticed it. I didn't heard any bright ideas from Systematic Chaos. Though I did liked the album I got tired of it really fast unlike their previous albums due to this "commercialization".
------------- "I've walked on water, run through fire, can't seem to feel it anymore. It was me, waiting for me..." |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 19:46
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the only two of those you've mentioned that I've heard are Transatlantic and DT. I do agree that a lot of the time Transatlantic sounds a bit too similar to their 70's idols, and I have also noticed with DT's later albums that they have taken more and more to doing the same. With regards to DT it has been particularly irritating because I always notice random bits of their songs which are taken from songs by other bands, such as in "Peruvian Skies" where they use "Have a Cigar" by Pink Floyd, "Never Enough" and "Prophets of War", which seem to be taken from "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Take a Bow" by Muse, and many others where it seems they are trying too hard to copy their idols. I did enjoy Systematic Chaos, but it's charm wore out quickly because it did feel rather derivative and stagnant. |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 20:35
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Marillion - Marbles without any (new) ideas? Have you ever listened to Ocean Cloud or The Invisible Man?? Are those pop songs??? Marillion is still going strong, live I cannot think of a better band (I saw them twice the last year) allthough their album Somewhere Else was not nearly as good as Marbles. But I bet they'll be back this year with a killer (double) album....(and yes, I'm a fanboy of that band...)...So...I think that virus has not hit them as hard as you say here...(I also think Transatlantic has some great tracks, and isn't nearly as dull as you make it seem here...) ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 21:29
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Listen to enough music, and you'll find similarities (conscious or not) abound. Le Orme or Pfm have a song that sounds like Pink Floyd borrowed bits of it for Brain Damage, at least the acoustic guitar parts. But I've yet to see any mention of Floyd having heard of either band while they were doing live at Pompeii . It can be annoying at times, but (to repeat myself ad nauseum) it still comes down to your liking the music or not. How many RPI keyboard trios sound like ELP ? But if you, or in my case, had never heard ELP before listening to the Italian bands, would your opinion change any if you had some RPI bands you loved. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: March 31 2008 at 21:47
Isnt innovative and neo-prog an oxymoron?  ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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DJPuffyLemon wrote:Posted By: Moatilliatta
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 01:46
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What I think is that too many prog fans try to find fault in modern prog bands. Why, I am still not sure. It has gotten quite ridiculous though. Now, let's tackle these points. First of all, Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings have had plenty of their own ideas and/or write too many pop songs. You will admit that they have a unique edge to their sound, which is good, and that is always one of the points of contention there. Structurally and sonically I think both bands have managed to stand out among the mass of new prog bands who carry the strong 70s influence. There are so many "underground" modern prog bands that have the 70s sound too, but why is it that The Flower Kings and Spock's Beard have managed to get popular and not those other bands? I'm sure that at least for a large amount of those bands the problem is that they haven't been able to innovate. Now, the bands write too many pop songs? If it's true for The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard and Marillion, it's true for Genesis, Kansas, Rush, etc. The Flower Kings have made 10 albums. By this point in Genesis' career they turned almost completely pop. The Flower Kings are still doing their thing and trying to find new ways to do it.And as far as copying other sounds, it's not like any of the bands (DT namely, since this is what you said regarding them) have completely changed their sound to whatever. They are just experimenting with new ideas or influences. Even if the influences are obvious, they are still clearly being made by the band who wrote the song. There is nothing wrong with trying something out. And even if it's not the most original, it can still be a great song. ------------- www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph  
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 02:25
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I think that first you have to think about which classic bands you can compare the bands you mention to. Of course a band like Spock's Beard doesn't write as unique music as Van der Graaf Generator did. But would I hold that against them? No. I'll agree that Spock's Beard have a strong AOR influence ... but then again that can also be said for Kansas. They also put some plain pop songs on their later albums ... Genesis did that as well. About DT: Yes, I think that they appear to be stuck in a rut ... but I would never call Octavarium and Systematic Chaos bad albums, rather the reverse. Of course if you don't "dig" their musicianship and are put off by their tendency to "emulate" other artists, then you won't enjoy them very much, and I would not recommend them as an introduction to DT. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 02:49
Oh, just wait till E-Dub sees this.  ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 03:22
| On Marbles I assume you're refering to You're Gone, Don't Hurt Yourself and Fantastic Place. Yes these songs aren't that proggy but the others are, plus the " commercial " songs are awesome. If you're going to find fault with Marillion then it should be with Somewhere Else. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 04:03
Speaking personally, I find the original premise of this thread over simplistic and the thread title unfortunate. It would be helpful if the specific tracks and albums being referred to by TFK and SB could be mentioned.
That said, it was perhaps significant that Marillion chose to omit "Ocean cloud", their most prog track in years, from the commercially available single disc version of "Marbles". If was only obtainable on the two disc version sold through their website.
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 04:17
Yes, it's two seemingly contradictory words.  ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: toolis
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 08:56
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you can't play prog and not sound at all like "older" prog and not all bands can invent the wheel with every release. that's not the point... however, neither is ripping off... there's no virus there, though... i remember reading to interviews and the question was: "do you know that many fans claim you sound alot like Genesis?", and the artist was like "wow, that's a great compliment! Genesis are one of our greatest influences!!"... DT used to do it alot better plus they were innovative and now they're not.. however, it's really important that new fans discover all this 70's prog music via theirs... Marillion's debut sounds like Genesis alot but all of us praised it and we should cause it's awesome... same goes with TFK and SB... personally, apart from Tool and TMV, i haven't listened to any genuinely unique new sound and i don't sweat about it.. as long as it's good music, it's ok... ------------- -music is like pornography... sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more... -sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue... |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 09:13
I personally think that since we are talking of a virus we should speak of influenzas instead of influences  -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 10:41
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All the bands you have mentioned have all been influenced by 70's bands to an extent but it's a bit unfair to say they don't have any ideas of their own....but then you say they have a unique edge to their sound which sounds kind of contradictory. In the case of Spock's Beard in particular I would agree they have written many commercial tunes, even more so since Morse left but they still retain enough a Prog edge to keep them interesting. I don't think the same can be said of The Flower Kings though, although recently Parradox Hotel comprised of shorter songs they aren't exactly Pop songs and they have recently returned with their most Symphonic album in years with 4 of the 6 tracks over 13 minutes long, one is actually 26 minutes.
Dream Theater have treading water a bit lately but still managed to produce consistantly enjoyable albums, if not classics lately. They're certainly not going down a more commercial road though; the nearest they got to that was when they bowed to record company pressure for their Falling Into Infinity album 10 years back.
Can't really speak for Marillion though as I've not bought too much by them sice the Fish years.
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 15:14
I think that you got it by the wrong approach. Instead of saying that this is the "Transatlantic Syndrome", you should call it "damn, we are too tired and way too old to write something interesting, so lets destroy everything we already did and make some horrible music". this virus is wildly spread in musical business. Look at Metallica, Iron Maiden, SB (after Morse's departure), Marillion (after Fish's departure), DT (after they wanted to make a lot money and have poser fans instead of not so much money and some few tr00 hardcore fans). In the Flower Kings case, i disagree. Stolt keep making his music as he always did but with more freedom to write whatever he wants to (since he rules over the FK like God itself over the universe), so if there are more pop rock, its because he is writing more about what he also likes and not what the audience likes. I feel that Stolt is right now doing this: "i am going to record this album. if it sells ok and if it don't ok also, cuz i am doing what i want" -------------   
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Posted By: chessman
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:00
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If it's a virus they've got, I wish I'd got it too! Transatlantic have recorded two top notch albums, especially the debut. And yes, they do show their influences on them, influences that for me are a good thing. As regards the 'parent' bands, well, I love The Flower Kings; they are my second favourite band of all time, just, and only just, behind Genesis. Top class musicianship and songwriting is their forte. And yes they do sound like Yes especially at times; for me, that's a bonus!
Spock's Beard, though I haven't heard as much by them, have also produced some great music, especially on their earlier albums, when Neal Morse was with them. Again, great influences from the seventies.
Marillion have produced some superb music, and the odd album that has been less than impressive. Somewhere Else is in fact quite woeful in places. But Marbles is maybe my favourite album by them, with some great atmospheric, melodic music on it.
Only Dream Theater leave me cold. Not my type of music, though I can appreciate their musicianship.
I was a big prog fan in the seventies, but I firmly believe a lot of today's bands are producing better music than ever. Of course, the argument will always be 'without those seventies bands a lot of today's bands wouldn't exist'.
I don't necessarily believe that's true. I think some of today's bands would have invented the genre themselves if it wasn't already around.
Anyway, as a fan of seventies music, I still like to hear that type of thing now, whether it's from old bands or new bands.
The alternative is bands like Sigur Ros and Radiohead, both of which I find vastly overrated and under talented.
I appreciate others like them, but they are not for me. Give me something that sounds old anyday!
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:11
Try talking to my grand grandmother. She is almost 100 and sound as old as hell. -------------
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 17:56
I'm not saying that its all pop songs, but its become very easy listening ambient sort of music...prove me wrong please, but I can't find Marbles having that much substance. I have relistened to the Invisible Man and Ocean Cloud, and those songs too sounded somewhat formulaic.
Important point with the kings. I don't know about them so I'll take your word for it and made power to them if that's what's up.
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 01 2008 at 19:47
Maybe its because i am the only one here that shares your view of things that, after a wile (in DT's case that have been 20 years for Christ sake, and here i mean that they have been making good albums until Octavarium, but i really believe that Systematic was some kind of "accident"), people just run out of ideas and then go to some side that may be unwanted by the fans (like Metallica sadly did  ). In Marillion's case i think that the band is incredible mediocre without Fish and Fish's solo career is not that good also, in the matter of making masterpieces like he did back in the 80's. Another thing: i really think that bridge across forever is better (please read here more balanced and "complete") than stmpe. All of the above is a masterpiece for itself, but the rest of the album just ruined it from being a masterpiece . Bridge across forever album is not as mindblowing as stmpe's all of the above, but the balance to me puts bridge across forever above all of the above.-------------
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 03:46
If I can add my two cents, it's worth listening to BANTAM TO BEHEMOTH by Birds and Buildings, the latest project of Dan Britton (keyboard virtuoso behind Deluge Grander): ambitious, highly inventive prog, predominantly instrumental and with all the restless fury of "The Gates of Delirium". I mean, let bands like Spock's Beard or Marillion compromise as much as they want to (IF that really is what they're doing), there still are first-rate North American bands out there, taking ideas from classic British prog to new levels! 
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 08:33
True, and not only north american bands, but also some european bands. However, influence is one thing and repetition / copy is another. any bands nowadays are simply copying the 70's and that really sucks. If i wanted to hear prog that sounds like the 70's i would listen to the actual "old school" prog from the 70's itself or "old school" prog metal from the 90's and late 80's, i preffer listening to Yes / King Crimson / Dream Theater / ELP than to a band that souns like Yes / King Crimson / Dream Theater / ELP.
A good example of influence is Neal Morse's music, which is very influenced by thge 70's but its not exactly a copy, and , Pagan's Mind, that is a total Dream Theater copy (hell, even their name is written with the same DT letters). -------------
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:05
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Never had an issue with Spock's Beard's work. I think their recent output is weaker but at least they haven't repeated themselves. Compositionally, though I'll grant you there IS a definite AOR influence, I find them in a completely different league to most in the 'retro prog' field in that the melodies tend to be discernible and not tied up in endless musical derring-do. I liked Transatlantic too, but there's a tendency for greater 'bloat' than Spock's Beard had, with their two albums being almost entirely dominated by massive epics.
The Flower Kings are often guilty of that padding I mentioned, with melodies tending to be obscured by tangled music and overlong compositions. TFK are capable of moments of sublime beauty and they probably get closest to the original symphonic sound, but I agree with most of Bob/Easy Livin's reviews of theirs where he says that compositionally, their work does not always really 'flow' as well as the 70s symphonic acts did at their best. I love 'Stardust We Are' and 'Space Revolver' though, which keeps the epics to a minimum.
As for Dream Theater? I've never liked any of their albums in their entirety. Again, compositionally I have issues with them, as the solo sections are often too long and occasionally bear little resemblance to the crux of the song. I liked 'Systematic Chaos' when it came out but I can't have played it for months and months. It sure as hell didn't break any new ground, I'll grant you that much, and that's my issue with TFK's latest output too- they are retreading their own steps.
Marillion, though, I find to be on a higher plane than any of these acts. I'd argue that as much as I love the Fish-era albums, they have now become a more complex, rich (complex/rich to me doesn't mean twiddly time signatures and long solos) and certainly more diverse beast over the years. Perhaps the Hogarth albums are less consistent than the Fish ones, but more risks are arguably being taken. Fish still has something to say too though- '13th Star' is a brilliant album, sounding contemporary and packing a real emotional punch. I don't really see them as being more 'poppy'- there were always singles on the Fish albums too.
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 11:39
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Nice one Salmacis, well said!
Good to see you around, hope things are going well.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 12:44
Once agian I find myslef having to agree almost completely with what salmacis has said (not the bit about Transatlantic though, I think they are two very well balanced, concieved and executed albums). Good job that man.  With rregards to the bands that stay close to thier influences, I have no problem with them. Symphonic prog is now the oldest genre of prog (I think) and subsequently has been explored to a very large degree, so its very hard for a modern band to brake the mold, besides how many of those classic bands are still recording albums at a high quality? Not many as far as I know , and they do say that veriety is the spice of life, I know I'd get bored with only a specific number of old albums and nothing new in the same style to look forward too after a while. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 14:13
Oh I like the Transatlantic albums, don't get me wrong!  Am less enthused about Neal Morse's solo output, though- he's another one that seems to be repeating himself now IMHO.
But really, let's face it, even some of the old acts started repeating themselves at some point- Yes' 'Keys To Ascension' albums and the ABWH album springs to mind.
I preferred albums like '90125' and 'Drama' to those backward-looking affairs; at least '90125' and 'Drama' had a contemporary sound, whilst ABWH and KTA show a band desparately trying to match former glories and failing (played 'That That Is' yesterday, it's still a mess!). I heard some samples of Asia's latest opus 'Phoenix' and it looks like they are stuck in a 1982 timewarp. Disappointing, really.
I agree with you, sleeper; looking to the 1970s for inspiration is not a bad thing in and of itself. As long as the songwriting is up to scratch I'm fine with it. But too often, I find it isn't. The worst offender for me was Glass Hammer's 'The Inconsolable Secret'- there was just no flow to the big epics on there, hardly any melodic refrains to latch onto. The only pleasure came from picking out where the influences came from and the retro synthesisers/keyboards...which is a pretty hollow pleasure in the end!
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 14:30
And didn't we just have a fairly big blow-up a month or two ago when somebody made a similar statement from way out in left field that had nothing to do with the thread? I've seen it time and time again how there's no room for stuff like this, but it obviously goes in one snobbish ear and out the other. E ------------- 
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: April 02 2008 at 14:45
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Transatlantic, though not groundbreaking, produced some of progressive's most memorable music in the past 10 years, in my opinion. What you have is sturdy prog music that stands the test of time. Then again, I'm not one of these over-thinkers who has to find meaning in every guitar chord or tom fill. I simply like what I hear. The comments about Marillion simply slay me (as many of you could surmise). This band is constantly re-inventing themselves and trying new things to keep their music fresh. There's nothing stagnant or complacent about Marillion. The critique strikes me as being preconceived and ill-informed, but it shouldn't take away from what the band has done to re-establish themselves in the past 8 years. I think it's abundantly clear that Marbles became one of Marillion's best...including anything from the previous administration. It's music that I haven't heard previously and many consider it a masterpiece. If people didn't "get it", then that's not Marillion's fault. E -------------
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Posted By: EnglishAssassin
Date Posted: April 05 2008 at 18:32
There is something of a fair point being made here; that Marillion's early career bore a substantial creative debt to Gabriel-era Genesis. Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly with E-Dub; they've never been mere copyists, and they've successfully reinvented their sound several times over, Marbles being a case in point. To try to address the original contention; I have always rather felt that much of the enjoyment to found listening to Transatlantic lay in the fact that they were paying unabashedly affectionate homage to the prog rock bands of the '70s. Much the same applies, love them both as I do, to the Flower Kings, and, albeit to a lesser extent, Spock's Beard. That's just something one has to accept when listening to them. Modern symphonic prog is a somewhat backward-looking genre, but that doesn't, for me anyway, spoil the enjoyment of it. Dream Theater are, to my mind, something of a different case. Twenty years ago they staked out their territory, called it prog metal, and have been largely content to play around within those (fairly wide) boundaries since. I think it would not be unfair to say that, like Marillion, they've still enjoyed more creative growth than most of the bands who influenced them. A further thought occurs; Marillion have been recording for twenty five years, Dream Theater for nineteen, and have both managed, with, it must be admitted, some ups and downs (This Strange Engine, Falling Into infinity) to remain critically well-regarded. From a certain point of view, that's a good deal longer than either Genesis, Yes or ELP ever managed. From a certain point of view... |
Posted By: meat puppet
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 07:40
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This is an interesting thread. It makes sense to me. A know a classical composer who has listened to various bits of prog.....from ELP,Yes,Crimson,Tool,PF,DT..............he states, "its not proper music, its just an overlong pop song, or a combination of seperate songs bolted together, it doesn't go anywhere, just one big jam". I didn't understand that comment at the time. That seems to be the essence of it........prog is just a re-hash of other music styles bolted togeter........thats why this thread exists. These bands are not progressive at all ! The real innovation is in the 3 minute pop song, not just the one you hear on the radio, the underground stuff, otherwise only classical music is really is progressive. Thats not to stop anyone enjoying prog, immerse and enjoy I say and be aware that the lack of true progression is actually the nature of prog..........its actually regressive music. When metal bands happened then progsters welded that modern sound into the musical tapestry and continue to weld more bits as they become popular in the mainstream |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 12:24
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Meat puppet your comments sound like they came out of the mouth of someone who hates music with any outside influences....so like ALL music! Of course rock/pop/prog music takes influences from previous sources, but it doesn't mean its regressive. True rock takes its influences from blues and folk, while prog admittedly does look further back to jazz and classical music, but that's only to become more innovative and original.
As for classical music, its innovative era seemed to exist around 300 years ago, what new stuff is it coming out with now? As far as I know, its a stagnant genre. While, rock (and in extension prog) is constantly evolving and looking forward...PROGRESSING if you will. :-p
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Posted By: meat puppet
Date Posted: April 06 2008 at 19:50
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You misunderstood my comments. I can quite happily live with any amount of outside influences in music, its the tag 'progressive' that I think is wrong, it probably always was. There are probably very few truly progressive bands around that take music to another level, most of those would be found in the true (eventualy mainstream) pop culture.....rap, reggae, soul, hiphop, dance etc, metal. Those influences find their way into 'progressive' bands, so you have to wonder what is truly progressive. I would suggest (and interviews with band members back this up) that most 'prog' bands regard themselves as simply 'rock'. Your assertion that progressive bands borrow from the past can hardly be seen as innovative which is exactly my point........borrowing from the past is regressive. It is why these bands all have similar elements without one strong theme emerging, its the theme that is innovative. Classicals heyday might be over but the classical music scene is far from dead........and its not my particular interest either. Take a look through the contemporary classic releases over the last few years, the music is pretty challenging !! Again, remember I listen and love Tool, DT,Riverside, Opeth and cut my teeth in the heyday of prog which I lived and breathed.......ELP, Amon Duul, KC,VDG,PF,Genesis,PFM,Gentle Giant,Pete Sinfield,Yes,Nice,Moody Blues Hawkwind, BackDoor and many others. That was the days when 'progressive' was tabbed and back then it was a springboard from the bands of the day, the sound was different. These days that sound has simply been welded to other genres and though it is interesting its far from new......ie progressive. |
Posted By: ProgRockerJDS
Date Posted: April 12 2008 at 17:26
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I don't see the problem. Personally, I think that as long as it's good music, a band can do whatever they want, including writing a pop song designed to be a hit single. Pop music isn't bad, it's not prog but as long as it's well written pop, it's still good. And as far as the outside influences go, a lot of artists copy other artists when they're writing music. It's nothing new. |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: April 15 2008 at 01:25
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Okay, add The Tangent to my list of complaints:
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