Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51646
Printed Date: August 13 2025 at 17:34
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: Metallica: Progressiveness Distribution
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 17:44
Have a look at yet another fascinating chart. Higher levels indicate prog, levels between 4 and just below 6 indicate prog-related. At least that's how it's done at PF, you can also think of the chart as the upper half = prog, the lower half = non-prog. For comparison, here's the chart for Dream Theater:  And for Genesis:  But this time it's different: this chart is fully dynamic. You can help me get it right by rating/taging Metallica albums at PF ... the chart will automatically update itself.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Replies:
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 19:02
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I don't agree with the numbers. Mine would be like this. (assuming that x>5.0 indicates progressiveness as you said Mike):
Kill 'Em All - 3.5
Ride The Lightning - 5.5
Master of Puppets - 7.5
And Justice for All - 8.5
Metallica - 1.5 (not qualifying the album, but its progressiveness)
Load - 0
Re-Load - 0
St. Anger - -1
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 08 2008 at 22:31
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KEA 3.5
RTL 6.5
MoP 8
AJFA 9
Load 0
Re-Load 0
And I'll go on better than The T
St Anger -2
Death Magnetic- not sure yet, but the name is bad enough to warrant a score no bigger than 2 ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 02:46
Well ... since you both have PF accounts, I would be glad if you rated/tagged the albums there. That's the only way to influence my chart. You can easily rate/tag the albums from the discography page: http://progfreak.com/Metallica,_dbe,artists,_auto_8057510.xhtml?path=discography - http://progfreak.com/Metallica,_dbe,artists,_auto_8057510.xhtml?path=discography |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:04
BTW: 10 on this scale means "the most progressive recording *ever* conceived". Are you sure you would give AJFA 8.5 or 9 on that scale?
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:11
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Yeah, sorry about that.
I was literally laughing while posting at The T's joke, so I went a bit overboard and was feeling overly generous and for some reason that picture of James Hetfields that looks like he has been on a barbeque for a while came to mind and I always imagine him singing in his current voice "TAKE ME OFF THE BARBEQUE.......... WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!" everytime I see that pic . Yes, that Woa Yeah he seems to have over done by about now
Ohhh, that was going off on a tangent really
 Some more serious figures here:
KEA: 3.5
RTL: 5.5
MoP: 7
AJFA: 7.5
Metallica: 1
Load: 0
Reload:0
St Anger: 0.5
Don't know if I can ever be bothered listening to Death Magnetic,
I will if someone gives it to me for free, but I ain't spending my own money on it anytime soon... or ever. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:21
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Ok ... but if AJFA is at 7.5, where is Close to the Edge or Foxtrot?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:24
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Oh crap.. I dunno
I'll think about it I suppose. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 09 2008 at 03:32
^ sorry, didn't mean to influence you! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 12:04
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Just an update: I increased the number of steps for all tags from 5 to 10.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 14:42
As I've said before elsewhere, I don't compare the progresiveness of metal with that of prog-rock in the same level.. for me are two different things... So Metallica is very prog in AJFA, but very prog-metal at that... Of course, compared with Genesis it's a 3.5, but compared with prog-metal is a 8.5, or maybe that'sd exaggerated.. let's give it a 7.5.....
By the way I'm tagging their albums now in progfreak...
 Edit: I'll have to fisish doing this on my laptop.. in a slower computer, progfreak is just... a little bit too slow to work with... .... Tonight I'll finish those tags and ratings in my laptop.... I'm just beginning to understand your site Mike...-------------
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 15:08
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^ I guess that's the challenge ... simply assess the progressiveness on a 0-10 scale, independently of genre. I agree that there may be a tendency for prog metal to be less progressive than prog rock, but at least for me that doesn't mean that prog metal albums simply get 2 points less or something like that, it's always an album vs. album decision.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 15:37
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Yes guys, but almost 63% of the members who voted in the poll started believe Metallica shouldn't be here.
Honestly, talking about "Levels of Progressiveness" make me laugh,
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 15:42
Pretty pointless since that happened at least to The Who a dozen times, no? The voting, I mean. And, besides, also pretty pointless since Metallica's case is currently kept alive by at least four big members, out of which one said "he won't die if (till?) Metallica don't get added". ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 15:59
Wouldn't you agree that some albums are more progressive than others? There's not much math or numerics about the chart or my tags ... simply see them as sliders which you can either put at 0 (not progressive), 10 (the most progressive thing that you've ever encountered) or somewhere in between. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:00
Check this http://www.progressiveears.com/default.asp?bhcp=1 - http://www.progressiveears.com/default.asp?bhcp=1 a whole thread made for laughing about this obsession in PA about charts, levels, and percentages.
Now The Who.....Yes, the band was added, but still some of us believe it's wrong,. the majority of people who voted believe it's wrong, being added doesn't mean it's ok.
Now, talking about a band having 3.78% of Progressivenes sounds wrong to me, how in hell can you talk in percentage terms about a characteristic of music?
Iván
EDIT: No I don't believe a band is MORE Progressive than other, a band is Prog, Prog Related or not Prog, that's all. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:07
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Iván
A good place to start would be your evaluation of Nemesis in the Neo Thread in the collab zone. Although you didn't use percentages, you did evaluate each songs as being very progressive, somewhat progressive, and not progressive at all. These can be translated into percentages, but these percentages would be based on your beliefs and each individual would have their own belief as to what these percentages are. That is unless someone is ambitious enough to count all of the notes in each song, and all of the notes that are progressive (or at least that exist during what is considered a progressive part of a song) and then a percentage could most definitely be applied that way.. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:07
^ sorry, but both The Who and criticism of numbers and statistics is off topic ... maybe you could continue those discussions in other threads?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:11
Nobody's trying to be that precise, Iván ... you're deliberately exaggerating things in order to make them look bad. If it makes you happy then I'll gladly optimize that chart so that its vertical scale doesn't contain fractions ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:11
You can talk of genres, you can talk about blends, you can talk about a song having influence of different genres....But translate it to numbers?
Sorry but I believe it takes the beauty out of music.
Mike wrote:
Of course I'm exagerating, it's a literary figure to point the futile of this chart IMO.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:15
Only if you allow it to do so. You rated albums before on this website ... did that also take the beauty out of the music? I really doubt that ... BTW: Above you said that for you a band is either not prog, prog-related or prog. Ok, so you're already rating progressiveness on a scale from 0 to 2. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:21
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:42
My parents were at my house this weekend so I love my mom at about 5. They headed home to Florida today though, so it should be back up to a 10. My parents tend to get on my nerves when we are under the same roof. We get along much better 1200 miles apart.
Being an accountant who works with numbers, and who also prepares tax returns for about 50 attorneys, I know from experience that attorneys and numbers don't normally get along together all that well. So I can see how Iván would not care too much for using numbers to describe music.
But I do agree with Mike on this one. Whether you are conciously doing it or not, I think that we all internally categorize the music by percentages or ratios. Probably not down to .78% but more in the line of 0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100%, which would probably translate into not progressive, partially progressive, somewhat progressive, mostly progressive, and fully progressive. And if you are someone who enjoys numbers or numerology then adding numbers or percentages to the music only makes it that much more beautiful to you. But that is only one point of view.
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:45
I'm not against your statistics, just to mention, Mike... In fact, instead of this graphic, I can easily translate it all in which albums are progressive and which aren't (or I can easily misunderstand the thing, on the other hand )...but that would pretty much be an argument in favour of Metallica having the stuff to enter prog...NOT really! cause based on the infos on have on Metallica (for my super cool metal fan), Metallica and prog does not compute...or, better said, it best not compute... here's where nuancing and not statistics works for me...if Metallica has manifested enough progressiveness compared to Metallica, I'd still think over if Metallica has manifested enough progressiveness compared to prog (not prog rock necessarily, because I basically agree with the main lesson: prog rock ain't prog metal, viceversa likewise) but you're right, let's best use the other thread that won't stop growing into a tireless monster for the above kind of arguments (argumenting) v  -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:45
I love to read reviews, but I also like tags ... not just at PF, but also at other websites like last.fm. If someone assigns the tag "mellow" to an album, it's about the same as if he included the line "The music is quite mellow" in his review. Where's the difference?
In all honesty: I think that that's not a fair analogy. PA users take music more serious than other people, but not *that* seriously ... or do they? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 10 2008 at 16:51
Well, I would say that you should try to listen to the music yourself. http://www.myspace.com/metallica - http://www.myspace.com/metallica Unfortunately the myspace page - as usual - doesn't feature the more progressive tracks of the albums, but listen to One, Fade to Black and Battery. The latter is quite interesting as far as form is concerned.
Most of us love a good argument ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 02:41
So then if a Metallica album gets an 8.5 on a scale of 0-10 for progressive metal, then what on Earth would a maudlin of the Well get?!?! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 05:27
"a Metallica album" ... they're not all the same, so it depends on which album you're talking about. If it was Master of Puppets vs. Bath I'd say 5 vs. 7. I know that some would rank MotW higher on the progressiveness scale, but IMHO much of their progressiveness is actually "just" experimentation/avant-garde. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 06:29
how long have you been a collab? ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 06:55
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^ I'm a freak ... that's a given.
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Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 13:26
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Kill 'em All : 1.5 Ride the Lightning: 3 Master of Puppets: 4 And Justice For All: 4.5 Metallica: 3.5 Load: 3.5 Reload: 2 St Anger: 1 Death Magnetic (from what I heard in youtube): 3.5 EDIT: and no, Metallica doesn't belong in here at all. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 14:43
But experimental and avant-garde genres are listed here, so there's still merit to them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 15:05
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^ I'm just saying that at least for me experimentation/avant-garde is not the same as progressiveness. I can't (yet) put my finger on it, but sometimes I get the feeling that the band is only trying to be as "non-conformist" as possible. In those cases I will not give them high progressiveness scores, although I'm quite aware that many other people would rate them highly. The opposite also happens ... sometimes I give high progressiveness scores to albums which aren't avant/experimental at all. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 15:45
Mmm.... The band you mentioned (which I haven't heard but let's assume, as it is a Driver's band, sounds somewhat like Kayo Dot) may be more EXPERIMENTAL and, of course, "avant-garde". Progressive as in progressive-metal, it's another history. Let's say that, if we try to apply the definition and concepts from 70's prog-rock to both bands, Driver's band may be proggier as it's freer, more form-free. Metallica wouldn't score that high in such a case. But talking in progressive-METAL terms (I have explained what I think about the subject in my thread in the prog-lounge), obviously Metallica was a turning point in the genre's history (specially with MoP and AJFA) that Driver's band can't be, as it's barely even METAL in the first place.... (if it's like Kayo Dot's DAWCT.... because BLD is absolutely 0% metal) -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 15:47
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For me, it's the way they seamlessly meld metal with jazz and more indie/alternative elements that make them progressive. And T, you should really hear maudlin of the Well. It's nothing like Kayo Dot and it's the most metal thing Toby has ever done. You know, riffs, growls, guitar solos, double-bass, etc. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 16:07
^ In case you were wondering: ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 11 2008 at 23:54
^Why the hell do you have TWO lines there? 
I'd explore Maudlin of the Well... if I could get the cd.... (I hate mp3's, sorry) -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 01:59
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eBay! The End! I got all three albums for around $15 on eBay. But yes, this band is radically different than Kayo Dot and everything else Mr. Driver has done. He's one of those guys who's impossible to pigeonhole. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 02:34
I thought it would be self explanatory ... tho the left of the first line it says "Average (All Users)", to the left of the second line it says "MikeEnRegalia".
mp3 today sounds as good as cd ... so if you really want the music, that shouldn't keep you. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 10:17
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Cool ... Death Magnetic has just broken through into prog territory!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 16:10
Agreed. Honestly, if this site truly cared about "levels of progressiveness" half of the bands that are here wouldn't be and there'd be about twice as much electronic-related material. Artists such as Autechre, Boards of Canada, and Aphex Twin are more progressive than 80% of the bands here, but they have no similarity to the prog sound at all, so they get no recognition. I'd argue their placement on this site long before I would ever argue Metallica's. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 12 2008 at 16:39
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*Please* add them to my website then ... there *you* define what's progressive and what isn't. I even recently implemented the distinction between progressiveness and what you call "prog sound". And ... your sorting algorithm is still there (you can select it on the "charts" page).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 22:42
I've tried. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31334&PN=23 The electronic prog definition is not closely related to the 'prog sound', but it admits of nothing that might sound remotely 'commercial'. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: September 14 2008 at 23:53
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Ivan, I'd like to say something about your opinions. I have been reading these forums for a long time, much longer than how long I've actually been a member. I've seen you in discussions, and frankly, you seem very black and white and your opinions aren't very open to things. I really don't mean to offend you, and I probably shouldn't considering you have much respect from the forum (and me) and have been here longer, but come on.
How can you label an album just progressive, somewhat progressive, or not progressive? I would consider both "ITCOTCK" and "Close to the Edge" as progressive, but since the former broke more ground, wouldn't you say ITCOTCK is more progressive? Then it would be on a higher level of progressiveness.
Many people wish there were 10 levels to rate an album on, rather than just five. Would you rather have 3 levels? Bad, okay, and good? I'm just saying. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 10:51
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I just upgraded the chart a little bit ... the related/prog ranges are now marked accordingly. @Iván: Have a look at the chart now ... it's now more obvious that what I'm doing is quite compatible with your "ternary" solution (non prog, prog related, prog). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Zitro
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 11:53
| i can't rate individual tracks like in the past. Did you remove that feature? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 15 2008 at 12:07
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^ you can rate the tracks by clicking the symbol to the right of the album rating dropdown ... works for the other tags as well.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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