Your opinion of the "new" reviews layout
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Topic: Your opinion of the "new" reviews layout
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Subject: Your opinion of the "new" reviews layout
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 01:34
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Some time ago, mailto:M@x - M@x changed the reviews page so that it now by default only shows the full Collab reviews and a few minimized member ratings. Since it has been a significant amount of time since that change, I thought it would be interesting to see what PA members thought of it after working with it for a while, since the reaction at the time was almost universally negative. Personally, I have noticed myself not bothering to look at member reviews nearly as much. When casually browsing, rather than researching something, I'm much more likely to only skim the paragraphs on the side when there's only a few reviews, although then when something catches my interest I have to go and reload the page. And while I remember that I used to occasionally look at random member reviews of some of the albums with larger review counts, I now never bother to load that page. While this is in part because I now how no reason to sift through 850 reviews of CTTE, I do think it has had a chilling effect by preying upon my laziness and natural distrust of random members I've never heard of before. It's also caused me to, if I were to review an album, only review albums that still have less than 3 member reviews because of the pushing to the side.
What do you think about the format? Do you think your answer to this poll will change anything? And will I ever find true love? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Replies:
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 01:48
| I joined the site after the change, but I think I like it better this way than I would have the old way. In most cases not only are the collabs better reviewers, but they are the reviewers who have reviewed a very large number of albums and havent just picked out their favorites or least favorites to voice their unusual opinion about an album. Non-collaborators may not like the layout for compressing their reviews, but if they dont like it then they can write more and become one. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 01:52
Don't know about true love Henry, that's hard  but about your other question: I'm not sure if I can answer this fairly since I'm a collab and thus my reviews are shown complete. But if I were a guest reviewer I would probably be less enthusiastic. What I don't really understand is why these reviews are minimized because in 9 out of 10 cases there is enough room for the guest reviews to be shown completely. Maybe it's a matter of server space or something, we would have to ask mailto:M@x - M@x for that.
By the way, when are we going to see reviews by you ? I'm really curious about them. ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 02:02
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
progrules wrote:Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 02:20
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I do look at members' reviews if I'm not satisfied with Collab reviews. They come second though (or they don't come at all in the case of albums extensively reviewed by Collabs). Should this be a negative or a positive vote? |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 02:23
Henry reviews....that should be, interesting. And I guess I feel negatively, its just another example of admins using special treatment. Reviews should just be there, IMHO. But also, I really don't care about it really. Besides, no one wants to read my reviews  |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 02:39
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I can't comment on the old format, but I really don't like the new one. It seems like massive favoritism to me. Example of one of my reviews: This is mine - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=241824 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=241824 And http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=14366 - this review gets a place on the front page. I'm not saying its bad, but I think it's fairly obvious that I spent more time on mine than was spent on the other. I know the other review was written in 2004, but I still don't think thats fair. And also, I've seen the same thing happen with a lot of other reviews, where the reviews which took massively long are forced into the side column to make space for those which took less than 5 minutes, and in some of the very early cases, don't even make the 100 word minimum. Just my two cents, -Joel ------------- 
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 02:46
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Little change: generally spoken (but not always), the collab reviews are better, although there are lots of good non-collab reviews. And the last 10 reviews are displayed in full length on the band's page, so a non-collab review may be displayed there for many a month if he chooses to review an album by a lesser known band. But I think it might be better if some more of therse reviews is shown on the album page.
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 03:10
I am a little perturbed by having to scroll right down past all the adverts, ebay and amazon etc., to actuallly get to the reviews...
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 03:30
Agreed! Very annoying to say the least. I wish they were at the very bottom of the page as I think the vast majority of us would like to get to the albums and reviews straight off, without wending our way through a mindfield of ads for Ebay and the like! I am in two minds about the reviews layout. Yes - I think collabs reviews should be prominently displayed but there are a lot of great reviews from guest reviewers, which I tend to overlook unless I happen upon them on the PA homepage. I think the layout should be revisted with guest reviewers given a little more prominence, similar to the old layout. -------------  "Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 09:03
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If you are not a Collaborator, there is no reason in the current system to put effort into a review of an album if not for your own satisfaction. Your opinion otherwise is nearly worthless. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 09:32
Totally agree... and yes, we only write reviews for our own pleasure, because nobody will reach for the reviews on the side, and keep skipping the pages back to go and see another review... so I'm with those who want a change on the format... about true love in the other hand... it exists, surely, for all of us... but is difficult to recognize it and we're scared...!!!  ------------- |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 11:58
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First off, I never used PA before the current system was implemented. I feel that the current system is quite good (with some room for improvement). For albums that have over a couple hundred reviews, I don't necessarily want to sift through all of them. In general I believe featured members write better reviews. Another big deal is bandwidth. If I am interested in reviews of Close To The Edge I don't want to wait for all 800 reviews to load and I'm sure M@X doesn't want to waste the bandwidth. My sensible idea is that if an album has over X number of reviews then only the collaborators get on the main page. However, if the album has X or fewer reviews then everyone gets on the main page. If I am interested in an album that only has a handful of reviews by collaborators you can be darned sure I'm going to look at the rest of the reviews. I'm sure this idea can be tweaked to account for the various proportions of collaborator to non-collaborator reviews. As for the ads (since they got brought up), I'm not sure how much money will be lost by moving them fromt he middle of the page to the bottom. I'm perfectly fine scrolling the extra bit to get past them but my one gripe is with the eBay ad. This thing hijacks your mousewheel when you are scrolling down if your mouse happens to go over this part of the page. I am often annoyed by this so it would be great if something could be done about it. Finally to answer your remaining questions, yes I think some form of my brilliant idea will be implented and no, you will never find true love. You will find someone that is good enough and, since you know of nothing more, you will wind up with that person. It will, however not be true love. ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:07
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Collabs are collabs because they've been recognised for knowing what they are talking about. Now I don't know about you guys, but when I'm reading a review I want to read one from a guy with a relevant opinion, not some douchebag advertising Nike trainers, or even worse, a troll. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:17
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Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:25
I get the picture, guys. I hate ads too but don't forget they are the source for the existence of our great site !  ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:28
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I'm here for not that long, so I haven't seen what the reviews layout used to be.
I do understand form the OP that the old system did show normal member reviews in a more open way. I think the active layout has both positive and negative sides. I completely agree with Joel that it feels very annoying when a review you've put much effort in doesn't appear on the on the front page while some 100 words reviews that barely give any insight do. On the other hand, I do agree with The Pessimist even more. Collaborators and Prog Reviewers are that for a reason: they do care about this site. Of course the majority of normal members care about it just as much and also want the site to run without annoying diffuculties or problems, but there also are a bunch who don't care. I'm actually quite glad the absolutely worthless reviews aren't shown on the front page. When searching for useful information about an album now I always know I'm going to find some good reviews that give lots of insight fast, and that I don't have to skip through the nonsense reviews. So, I vote for positive. As I think although having some cons the active system works pretty fine and safe from trolls and nonsense reviews. |
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:35
Not true at all, I'll give you three 1. because its fun 2. to become a collaborator 3. If you review albums that arent well known, then people will read your review |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 12:53
not quite exactly, because your review will appear only in a small box, even if there's no special collab review what so ever... but I said is not that no one would read it, if it shows on the main page... I read the reviews most in the homepage -and hope other read mine- but still feel like we need a little more space on the right so people could read us a little bit more... I dare to say that some collabs do not describe quite well some albums and spend more time talking about their own background than the album itself... I'm trying to ofended nobody, just make some points for the benefit of the site... ------------- |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 13:14
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I think it's pretty terrible, and have often found non-collab reviews to be be better-reading and better-written than collab reviews. Sometimes I prefer them because they ain't so bloody long - lol (talk about the pot calling the kettle black as I commonly write long posts). I didn't become a collab as a reviewer, yet I would get special treatment of placement and weighting (heck, there are some mostly raters-only whose ratings opinions I I trust more than reviewers simply because my tastes are closer) . It seems a bit unfair to me, and I don't think it benefits the visitors as much as it does the "staff" -- though many collabs have been dead-set against this favouritism from the beginning. And I think such representation can help give some people an over-inflated sense of worth/ ego, to be honest. Reviews are mostly just opinions anyway.... I also think it can be discouraging for non-staff (the counter argument that has been given is that it will encourage people to write better and more reviews so that they will be considered for Prog Reviewer status). It's also a carrot to encourage collabs to write more, but I think it's more decent to give everyone a fair showing. If someone's spamming, as has been mentioned, that will be usually be caught anyway when it's on the front page and is abusive, but if it weren't it might be harder to catch when it's pushed off to the side. Incidentally, at progfreak.com there is a trusted reviewer rating (not that we could bring in quite the same system here) and being a collab is supposed to mean trusted anyway... Late edit (had a shower): The other funny thing is that when you look on the album page it has the earliest collab (reviewer, collabs, SC, or admin) review first, but in the right truncated column it has the latest non-collab review first. Well, I think that the early standards for reviews were much lower, so it's not uncommon for the most prominent reviews by collabs to be relatively poor, so if it's a quality issue, it often doesn't hold up -- especially if it an album that was added back in the early days of the site. Early collab reviews are quite commonly not that good, but when one becomes a collab, every review one has written (even as a noob who may have poor writing skills, has not listened to the album much and is not yet that knowledgeable / has not hones one's craft) gets that special treatment. I could find many examples of collab reviews that show limited understanding while non-caollabs (who may eventually become collabs themselves and then their reviews will get better treatment) show greater understanding about the album/ band/ the scene it belongs to.... Guess the ads get even more special treatment, however, so we're all at least second best to those (I use adblock). The other thing regarding both placement and weighed ratings -- weighted ratings being a concern of mine -- is that there is no shared truth when it comes to an album's worth or even the same methodology for rating which lessens the treatment for me. One collab pans an album and gives it a one while another praises it and gives it a five. It's the same with non-collabs, even though, of course, it's more likely to find abuse with non-collab reviews (though there are many reliable non-collab reviewers who may be asked to become collabs at some time). In the realm of musical opinion, or at least what I should look into, I put my trust in those that I know have similar tastes to mine (be they official reviewer or not -- I couldn't care less what someone's title is when it comes to such matters). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 14:24
Previously, the collab reviews were all at the top, so that covers your sifting thing, and we have a pretty good system for getting rid of trolls and incoherent idiots.
Yeah, the reviews from 2004 are almost all terrible. The early collab reviews are particularly embarassing. It makes sense why the oldest would be shown first, but it doesn't create an aesthetically pleasing page.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 14:38
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But what do you think about true love...???!!! ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 14:58
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It exists... -------------
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Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 15:28
Ah, I see. That indeed does sound like a better layout. Your right about the site getting rid of trolls, but there still are some reviews that don't give much insight to the music on the album at all, and basically are just ratings with some useless words added. There might be another problem though (I think). I don't know how big the site was back in the days of the old layout, and how many reviews there were, but I'm sure the site has grown ever since. It would become quite messy to have a page with over 800 full reviews of a popular album like Close To The Edge. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 15:37
1. Is covered by "for your own satisfaction."
2. Being a prog reviewer doesn't carry much with it alone. You get recognized for your achivement, which makes you feel good ("for your own satisfaction.") Otherwise, it would make you a collab and have your review more visible, but that only matters now because of the hightened visibility of collab reviews. This problem could be null.
3. Not necessarily true, and even if so, that does not mean they won't think a little bit less of your review because it's not by a collab.
For the record, I was a collab for awhile when we first had genre specialists, but because of the questionable legal nature of streaming MP3s and videos (among other forum business) I decided to resign. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: rpe9p
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 18:10
When I look at an album that has only 5 reviews and 4 are non-collaborators, you can bet I am going to read them. People may think less of your review because you arent a collab, but often with good reason and you can convince them otherwise by writing something good. I think the admins are just trying to make people's lives easier when searching for good reviews, just like members are trying to make people's lives easier by giving people a good review of the album. I dont know what the old layout was like, but the current one is fine for me because I would want to look at the collab reviews first anyway |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 19:00
Well at some point you must have that full messy page, otherwise nobody will be able to read them. One solution would be to, for albums that have over 100 reviews, to only show the first 10 member reviews and then have a "More" button on the bottom to show the rest of them. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 20:38
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 21:31
I have no knowledge of how data can be organised for manipulation on a website  but given that we can sort our own reviews into various formats from our member pages, could a facility exist where a visitor to the album pages might design their own preferred view i.e. to see all collab reviews or all member reviews by way of a drop down thingy ?
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 21:43
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 22:03
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I like it, I don't really read many reviews, and I have written none, but there are a few reviewers that I like, and it makes it easy for me to see if they have written a review. I wouldn't like it as much if I were I did write reviews though, I'd be worried about nobody reading it. |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: November 07 2009 at 09:54
Interesting... I like more this idea... the cokie sounds good and let everybodys arrange it as they will... the problem is, will these people want to make all that work to actually do it...??? ------------- |
Posted By: Tin Of Hurri Curri
Date Posted: November 14 2009 at 18:52
Excellent review, Joel!
I voted for "Negative." It takes too much work to be able to read a non-collab's full review: you have to click on it, read the review, and then click the back button to get back to the main page. I would much rather have a list of complete reviews with a "More" button at the bottom.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 28 2009 at 12:09
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Where's the difference? Never noticed. I'l lwrite one now and see if there's a difference. ------------- |