New decade, end of the CD?
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Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64142
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Topic: New decade, end of the CD?
Posted By: jammun
Subject: New decade, end of the CD?
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 21:57
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I've seen many articles online, it being the start of a new decade. Almost all of them predict that the '10s will be the end of the CD, sooner rather than later. The usual suspects are cited: cheaper for bands to just sell downloads online, bypassing the middleman (i.e., record companies); digital culture; everything else is moving to digital. So my question is, has the CD served its usefulness? Are we now into a strictly MP3 world?
I need to buy a new CD player (the old carousel is not carouselling so well any longer) and I notice there are not a whole lot of choices. Marantz and Yamaha still make decent ones it looks like, but there's not much else out there. It's starting to look like a niche product. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Replies:
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:05
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I'll be really upset when CDs and physical media disappears. Sure, it's more convenient to just go and download mp3 copies of a band you like, but it's just missing something...plus, if your hard drive gets messed up you're kind of out of luck unless you've got everything backed up, which I'm sure a lot of people don't.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:26
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It'll be awful if CD's disappear completely, but its worth mentioning that memory is dropping in price and size every year, so who knows, in 10 years we might be able to buy DVD-A MP3's on an SD card for the same price of a CD. I will continue buying CD's for as long as I can, though. ------------- 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:29
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It's my last format. When it goes, I start buying used CDs only. When they're gone, I find a new hobby. So NOT interested in downloading and Ipod etc. ------------- |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:35
I enjoy having my Zune, because it's more convenient to carry with me at college than my entire CD collection, but having the physical product beforehand is important to me, gives it a sense of value that I still can't attach to downloads. I just hope that I can manage to get all the music I want before CDs disappear if they do (which I hope they don't for a long, long time). ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Finnforest wrote:Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:49
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So, I do have an IPod (thanks to my kids), and most of the stuff is on the computer (and is backed up). Nonetheless I do not entirely trust purely digital storage. The hard disk is far more likely to die before the CD rots. LP's are also plastic, and they have not fallen apart, just yet, for nearly 50 years? I'm just noticing a paucity of component quality CD players. Guess I could always plug in the old Discman, which is also not exactly a youngster.
I suppose: I bought a new turntable a few years back. Never thought I'd say this: thanks to the club DJ's, who have kept that medium alive. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:50
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I don't like downloading. I still buy CDs. I'll also be upset when they die out completely. There's something to be said about physically owning a product, having the disc on a hard copy, looking through the liner notes. Going to the store and choosing records is part of the experience. Downloading...loses something. I have my entire collection on Itunes and my Ipod for convenience's sake, but I still need to have the physical backups. Ipods serve a purpose. They are useful for having your music on the go, and it is better than carrying around a wallet of compact discs. But I've never downloaded an album, legally or illegally. Everything on my Ipod comes from a physical CD. When CDs are gone, I just hope I have all the music I want to get on the format, because I can't imagine switching to downloading. I think there will always be people interested in having a hard copy of albums. The folks that buy a single song on the Itunes store are not serious music listeners, I believe. Some artists work can't be appreciated in 'singles' format, especially prog. Most of my collection is 'albums' bands. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:54
That's a good point you make. Can one buy a decent CD player anymore? The medium is only dead when they stop manufacturing equipment to play it on. I've had a few CDs rot before, but thankfully its only a minority of my large collection, and I had ripped them all on to Itunes before it happened. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:54
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Plus, I seriously doubt that mp3s would sound quite as good on a high quality sound system as a CD or a vinyl would. I can't speak from experience, though.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:58
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Dedicated CD players of high quality are hard to find, although DVD players with incredibly good sound output are easy to find. -------------
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 22:58
I agree with both your comments. I can't ever imagine switching to downloading cyberspace-only music, with no physical backup. But I do agree that MP3 players are useful in that you can carry your tunes around with you, without carrying your whole CD library. Everything on my Ipod was ripped from my own CD collection. I just like having the physical copy as well. If CDs die, I'm out. I'll be scouring used record stores, looking for bargain CDs. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:02
| It would be a big loss. I doubt I would purchase MP3's and buy an I-pod.... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:02
Yeah, a good DVD player with a surround sound setup gives you superb audio quality. I'm with Steven Wilson on the downloading issue (check out the DVD of Insurgentes to see his views on the subject). It just loses something...tangible and magical about the music listening experience. There's nothing like cranking up the surround sound mix of a PT album, or Pink Floyd. Imagine all these kids thinking that Mp3s are what music is supposed to sound like. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:07
| I would prefer a return to vinyl. When the apocalypse comes in 2012, I'd be able to listen to my vinyl but not my digital CDs... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:08
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Record companies are reacting to this downloading trend by giving you more value for money with CDs. A lot of discs come in limited editions these days, with bonus DVDs, artwork, collectors packaging, etc. It is starting to look like a collector's market. For example, look at the new Dream Theater and Muse CDs, with bonus discs, etc. I snap up new albums as soon as they hit the market, coz I know these special edition CD releases won't stick around for long. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:11
That's true. If something wiped out all electronic equipment on Earth, the only form of music recording you could still listen to would be vinyl. Just need something to spin it on, and something to act as a needle. They said vinyl was dead years ago, and it isn't. People still collect LPs all over the world. So I doubt CDs are going anywhere just yet. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:17
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One article I read suggested that the future of music was one mega-record company (Sony, Warners, etc., all consolidated), which would continue to release back catalog on CD for us who still are interested in owning a physical product. As for new stuff, purely downloadable digital will rule. Now that's just one guy's theory, but in a way I think it holds up. Which might say more about the quality of music being produced (by the big labels) today than as to the viability of the CD as a recorded medium. Still the lack of options in terms of buying CD players makes me question how long they'll be around, except as a niche product. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:19
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Well I know that as long as they're around, they'll continue to be my preferred medium for music.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:23
Yeah, I've seen that clip and definitely agree with you. We've got a 5.1 setup currently (my dad is actually bringing home a new amplifier [and possible 2 more speakers to upgrade to 7.1] today) which sounds fantastic. The Porcupine Tree Lightbulb Sun DVD-A in 5.1 is the best thing I've ever heard  -------------
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 05 2010 at 23:31
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You haven't heard PT til you've heard it on a kickass sound setup. I can't imagine Prog fans will ever abandon physical music media. The genre doesn't lend itself very well to single song downloads on Itunes. Another question is: is the album dead? The press have been saying that the need for albums full of filler tracks is no more. An artist can just release a single as a download whenever they want (look at Radiohead's approach to making music recently). I don't really agree with this. I'm not a 'singles' guy, I prefer listening to a whole album, even when I'm listening to it on an Ipod. Prog, by its very nature, is an album oriented genre. As long as we have it, we'll probably have some format available which caters for fans with long attention spans.
------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 00:09
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The death of the CD is BS. Maybe someday we'll move on the SACDs or some other format, but it will never go completely digital. I don't buy into the mystical nonsense of being able to touch a CD so it feels like I "own" it, but I can see the sound quality arguments on higher end systems, although I think the difference is overrated. I have pretty decent headphones and I've never been able to tell the difference between a CD and a high quality MP3. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 00:43
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I'm totally in favor of the end of CDs. I think of lot of people here seemed confused. I think what most people are actually thinking is that they still want a physical copy of the album/EP they are buying and just because CDs disappear doesn't mean access to physical copies will/should end. The Red Book format was first released in 1980. Before I was even born. The sampling rate is 44.1Khz, which is perfectly fine. What isn't so fine about CDs, and the reason why I want to see them come to an end is that they are limited to a bit depth of 16 bits. It's time to move onto a higher quality format than this. It's become standard practice in studios across the world, be it professional or "home/hobbyist" studios like my own for example to record in 24 bit for many years now, yet the Red Book format lags behind at 16 bits, which is just ridiculous. Eventually, the standard for recording will be 32 bits, possibly as soon as the next few years. So why should we continue to use CDs? I see no reason to. We need to move forward to a digital physical format capable of AT LEAST a 44.1KHz sampling rate and a bit depth of 32 bit. Many will argue for a higher sampling rate, which is fair enough, but given the styles of music that hold the music sales domination don't really benefit from being recorded at a higher sampling rate than 44.1KHz it's definitely not the necessity that moving to 32 bit depth is. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 01:26
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But can you really hear a difference between 16 and 32 bit? Maybe it's because I can have tinnitus and can't really tell the difference between the CD and a damn Youtube video, but I'm a bit skeptical of audiophiles claiming they can hear all these things. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 02:28
If you have a system that can reproduce audio the way it was inteneded to be reproduced you can certainly hear the difference between 16 bit and 32 bit all things being equal of course. So much really depends on the recording techniques used etc, etc. I know you will hear all kind of people claiming there is no difference in sound but if you live with a truly high end system, you find that the sound is less fatiguing on the ears. Many systems sound ok but after a while you get what is known as listener fatigue and that is a clear sign that you are getting high levels of intermodulation distorion which is usually attributed to various things. Some of these are jitter and or simply poorly designed analog amplification devices. There are not many really well designed amplifiers out there and the ones that are designed properly cost thousands of dollars. Sad but true.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 15:48
I agree with investing symbolic value into the physical support, I do it myself. However I don't think that we'll miss much if we lose the CD, or actually if we lose ALL physical support for recorded music. We'll just go back in time, one century worth of history; we would be back at the point where we enjoyed music as what it actually is: a performative experience. That's the way we had it for millenia 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 16:17
Agreed. The increased audio quality for DVD-A (96KHz/24bit) is IMO largely due to the increase in dynamic range (16bit -> 24bit). What I'd like to see is a bit more variety in digital downloads ... like a compressed 88.2KHz/24bit format or something like that. There is no technical problem, playback devices and software can easily be built to take any reasonable combination of sample rate, word size and compression (bitrate). But since that is probably not going to happen, the next step will be a shift towards more and more releases only being available as MP3. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 16:22
Designing a good amplifier is not exactly rocket science today ... and the differences are far less pronounced than you describe them, in my opinion. I use a cheap Logitech 5.1 system to listen to music (80 EUR for amp and speakers). It already sounds really good at low volume. Of course there are systems for 800 EUR that would sound better, and for 8000 EUR I could get a system that would sound even better. But according to some audio engineers an increase in price by a factor of 10 is likely to give you a quality increase of only 10% ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 16:24
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Physical formats for music will probably be practically dead or nearly dead by the end of the decade. That's not going to stop my stubborn ass (my capricious donkey, I mean) from buying them (he's never been one to care about trends). ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 19:20
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 22:20
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Mp3s will NEVER take out the CD... there are still enough people who enjoy the grasp of an album in their hands. Hell, vinyl is even coming bacK! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 23:03
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 06 2010 at 23:06
Because they only really make 30$ CD players or 400$ ones nowadays, and the 30$ ones sound like AM radio. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 01:18
| 400 dollars isn't even expensive for a CD player. For 400 dollars you're not even getting into the mid range systems yet. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 01:38
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Computer + speakers = CD player and 50,000,000 other things. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 01:48
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In what respect would a $400 CD player be different from the CD player in my computer? I understand the differences for vinyl, but it's a laser, how much distortion can there be... ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 02:38
You really need to read up on these things more Henry, lol. A more expensive CD played is going to have higher quality DACs in it. All things being equal, this alone can make a noticeable difference in sound quality. Also, if you're paying 400 dollars, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out the components are probably going to be of better quality too, which makes a difference. Of course there is a point where the law of diminishing returns will eventually come into play, which is why the difference between a 5000 dollar and 20 000 dollar CD player is going to be sh*t all, and no one except rich people can really justify that 2 per cent performance increase (or whatever small percentage it may be) that the 15000 dollars bring. But there is easily a difference between a 10 dollar and 400 dollar CD player. You'd have to have the world's sh*ttiest speakers or be deaf not to hear the difference, seriously. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 02:48
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CD discs will remain as a static storage medium as hard drives are still too unreliable for long term archiving - i have thrown away several broken hard drives over the years, and wouldn't trust them.
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 02:57
Yes, true enough now, but don't forget about our little friend called Solid State Drives. SSD eliminate the need for moving parts, so the chances of failure that we see in current mechanical hard drives caused by failure of the moving parts is virtually nil, probably in the realms of totally impossible in fact. They have extreme shock resistance and can withstand a number of other extreme conditions that would kill a "normal" hard drive. Within a few years, the price per gigabyte will be sufficiently low to be a more appealing purchase for a wider range of consumer. |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 06:27
Are you sure about that? My Marillion remasters claim to support up to 24 Bit, and they're standard CD's as far as I know.  -------------
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Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 07:08
^ How many bits do you hear on them? 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 07:22
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^^ usually these albums are remastered at 24 bit and then downsampled to 16 bit for the CD. Audio CD is always 16 bit, no matter what the packaging says.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 08:28
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I don't care, honestly. If the CD's disappear I won't spill a single tear. The old technologies are dying out, but they won't go extinct - at least no so soon. If there are turntables and cassette players around, CD players will be too. I have a device to play my CD's, and I will. But it's all digital data - so it doesn't matter if it's a floppy drive, CD, DVD, BluRay (what an annoying name), USB stick, hard disk, digital cassette, zip drive, jazz drive, mini-disk or something else. Personally, I would like vinyl to prevail because I like it and I think it's charming. If there's no physical copy, only digital data, it even doesn't have to be on my hard disk. It can be nested on some server in Arizona or Poland and streamed on demand, for all I care, as long as it is available and cataloged properly. ------------- |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 09:00
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CDs? There are still some people releasing music on cassette!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8441839.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8441839.stm
Personally I like to have something physical rather than just an MP3 file. Even though the CD artwork struggles in comparison with vinyl album covers due to its size, it's better than nothing (although I could make an exception for the "Olias of Sunhillow" CD).
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Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 10:15
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Vynil still exists... and even cassettes (but this one has really problems of function, the speed of the revolution and the problems with the tape always makes me mad) so CD will exists as well... the problem with the unphysical media is that now we don't have a standard time in a record, so the concept "Album" is in doubt... we can have an "album" that can last 3 hours or 2 minutes, so it's bad for the musicians, how many music you should bring in a recording...??? but I hate the mp3 and worse the m4a... I love CD's and while I have a good music system with CDs, I'll be fine... ------------- |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 10:34
I couldn't disagree more. Art should be bounded with imagination, not technical abilities. Whether an artist will compose an entity that is long 5 or 500 minutes, it's artistic freedom. I prefer a certain length, but that's only my preference...which is in many ways imposed upon myself through brain-washing years of "getting used to", but it's purely artificial. In a same way we will frown upon one's consumerism, preference to generic "beats" and "structure" instead of trying to get into more elaborate music, which will most likely be rejected by a pop consumer because it does not sound ordinary, we should also "think outside the box" and admit everything is allowed in art, and should be encouraged. By accepting the wider picture, although we don't have necessarily to like it, we will broaden our own perceptions and consciousness as well. ------------- |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 10:52
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^ I think that minimum lengths in formats make a lot of sense though. For example, movies are typically at least 90 minutes, music albums are typically at least 30 minutes. I wouldn't be comfortable with calling a 20 minute release of music an "album" ... it's definitely too short. In the other direction it makes less of a difference ... there are movies that take several hours, or albums that take more than 90 minutes. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 11:01
| I like a hard copy. If cd's die I'm sure they'll be some form of hard copy available. after all vinyl is selling better than it has for years and i'm sure the record companies wont want to miss out on any potential sales. I for one wont be buying any MP3's. |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 11:22
Well.. I was thinking like a musician... we are planning to record an album in the middle of this year and we have enough material to a 40 minutes production... so for me it's kind of tough to think what is the good amount of music to bring out in your debut CD... don't know... I understand the artistic freedom and we do have short songs about 3 minutes and other of 6+ and links between several songs... but it's still confussing to know or to decide how many music is good enough... ------------- |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 11:34
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My personal opinion is that the CD won't go away for good. This is based on the high number of CD-pressing houses that exist that, for a price, will print CDs. There will always be artists who prefer to have their music available that way, especially prog artists who understand the value of artwork, etc. being added to their product. With all of the indy productions going on, there is always going to be someone pressing CDs, just like there's still vinyl. It's might become a niche market, but niche markets make money. A lot of the stuff that the industry says about music pertains mostly to pop, because that's what the industry cares about. It's what makes money. And in that case, they are right; I've listened to a fair number of pop/rock albums that had the big singles, and not much more of any particular value. For those, I usually would take the songs that I liked best and add them to a playlist or a mixed CD, and ignore the rest of the album after hearing it enough times to decide what I want. So downloading singles makes a ton more sense. But some genres absolutely benefit from the album format. I almost NEVER listen to prog music outside the context of an album, and when I do, it's usually because I have limited time, not because I don't want to listen to an album. Hard drives failing is of course a problem, but for me it's maintenance that's the biggest issue with digital music. When I move to a new computer (which happens every few years), I have to back up my entire digital music collection, and then re-upload it to the new computer. I have to keep backups in case my computer breaks down at some point for whatever reason, so as not to lose it. I don't like that. Sure, having a CD for each album I own takes up a lot of space (a LOT of space, as I am sure many of you know), but it's so much more flexible. And, despite the fact that CD players may be getting rarer, there are so many things that can play CDs that aren't dedicated CD players. A computer ... a DVD player ... a video game console ... a toaster (okay, maybe not that one). Even if CD players vanish, we will still be able to play them.
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 12:11
I understand. I was talking from the idealistic point of view. Of course, recording time in a studio could be expensive as hell, as well as releasing of medium (I'm a musician myself). I'm in a similar situation. We recorded an album - it's about 40 minutes of music. It's not released yet. And now we're not satisfied with one song, and perhaps will throw it out. Which will cut the length to 36. We're wondering if we should record perhaps one or two songs more, but then again, they won't sound the same in a different studio and different instruments and line-up (we were recording far from home, in Berlin). Now we're unsure what to do...is it a good idea? Is it necessary at all? My gut feeling is: do what you like (and you can). Some people will like your music, some will not, anyway. Some people prefer shorter albums, some longer ones. If only money is not an issue!! Oh, what ideas we have! I would like to publish literally an album (like a photo album) - a collection of vinyl singles bidden in a fat book, rather than a LP, or combination of LP and CD in one unit for a double albums or to release an EP on 10 floppy discs...  Oh well, I guess I'd be lucky if anything got released  ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 14:13
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^ The ideas are cool and the problem to do what we want is that often you are not sure what do you want beyond the music... it sounds cool but if you can make an investment of that level, I think you can go ahead with it...
In my case is different... we have to make it very cheap 'cause there's no too much money and the girls -there are three girls in the band- wanted to be a environmental-green production, so we have to avoid the plastic cd box... and they are thinking on the material and an original package... our EP that with gift last year was and origami in a form of a star and inside the origami was the CD... but now we are worry of how the artwork will be and the lyrics and all that... and the same as you, we don't know if we should record again the 2 songs included in the previous EP or record it again to match well with the new track... so... I think we understand each other... the problem is that I don't enjoy when there's difference between track on the quality of the same album so... maybe we HAVE to re-record it again... which means.. more money... ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 14:36
I like my digital music player, too (a Zune as well). At first I thought it would be just a novelty, but now it's an essential piece of my music listening equipment. Also like the ability to play videos on it. Most of the stuff on it is from my CD collection. I still carry a CD case with me in my truck so I can pull the disc out and read liner notes and enjoy the artwork. The only thing that would spell the death of CDs for me would be a player that could holographicaly project artwork to either CD or LP size. I still have a few LPs, over half were ruined by a recent flood. And I may sound like a broken record (an odd term when you think about it as it meant a scratched one) in these threads, but I grew up with LPs and other than the artwork, I never cared for the needle noise and scratch vulnerability that came with that format. Being able to carry around your whole collection on a device the size of a deck of cards is a beautiful thing. I don't see CDs being phased out in the new decade. I do wonder if they do eventually get sort of phased out if they'll make a comeback like LPs. Probably, people are strange. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 17:41
Ah, okay. Thanks -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: January 07 2010 at 19:33
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Regarding price/availability of component CD players: go check out Best Buy online (not that I'd buy from them). They have a total of 11 available, most of which are very low end or really nothing more than novelties. This tells me there is not much demand for these players any longer.
I'm an old fart and need a physical copy of whatever I'm buying. i enjoy seeing the artwork (as best as I can on a CD), reading the liner notes, etc. This doesn't mean I don't like my iPod, but I wouldn't want my entire collection on my computer, not as its sole source.
I suppose I'm the same way with books. When I read, I don't want to boot up some electronic reader and download the latest novel. I like to hold the book, enjoy the feel of the paper, the font on the page.
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 08 2010 at 00:12
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 08 2010 at 00:23
okay... |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 08 2010 at 07:55
"Format fetishism". I like it! I'm not surprised some labels are still releasing cassettes, hell, some indie artists are releasing 8-track cartridges nowadays! ------------- |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: January 08 2010 at 08:11
| I'm pretty sure there aren't many people who can play an 8-track cartridge these days! |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: January 08 2010 at 08:43
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I want to by some vynils and I don't have where to reproduce it... it's more like fetishism... for collection... for emotinoal matters... ------------- |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: January 11 2010 at 22:22
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If artists only release material as Mp3 files, or any other kind of cyberspace format, I won't be buying it. I need something physical. I am buying up on CDs while I can, coz I don't know how much longer the format will be mainstream, and not a niche market for collectors. The end of CDs is the end of prog. There, I said it. Prog fans are usually album-oriented listeners. Progressive music really does not work as singles or once-off releases when a band decides to do it. Certainly, the concept of 'albums' dies as soon as physical media does. If Radiohead don't want to do albums anymore, but will release a new track online when they deign to, good on them. But I won't be buying it. When In Rainbows came out, I waited for the physical in-store CD release!  ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 11 2010 at 22:43
Why? There's no reason for it to. People like Pitchfork go on and on about the death of the album, usually in conjuction with Kid A being the last album, but that's stupid. It's only gone for people who weren't interested in the concept of an album in the first place. Do you think John Zorn or Sleepytime Gorilla Museum are going to start writing pop songs just because you buy their album as a download instead of a CD? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 12 2010 at 07:42
Since this topic has come up more times than I can count since I've been on this site in some form or the other, I always have to drop in this cartoon:  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: missinglink07
Date Posted: January 13 2010 at 17:48
I'm a product of the digital age, so almost all of my music is digital. I only own 16 CDs, most of which I couldn't legally download online  (like good ol' King Crimson; I just need Lizard before I own all their 70's material).
------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=841cXnzESZw - A song I wrote, please listen! |
Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: January 13 2010 at 20:32
| I don't have issues with CDs going away. They're just digital files on a disc. CDs have more in common with downloads than they do with vinyl, in my opinion. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: January 14 2010 at 06:23
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I don't think they were still a lot of CD's left in 2019. If i can't buy cd's, i will have to buy a MP3 player with a large memory and find a way to preserve those MP3 on some CD that can keep a lot of files in it.
------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: guitargods2009
Date Posted: January 14 2010 at 23:37
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Commerially produced CD's will probably fade sometime this decade like how the compact cassette tape did in the earlier part of the previous decade .So the mp3, ipod, blah, blah, blah will be with us for some time. But for a tangable format vinyl is king and making a big comeback if not already. It's the only time proven format that still with us after over a century. Sure they've fallen out of mainstream popularity in last 15 or 20 so years but sales of new vinyl are picking up again in a big way. Heck my band releases stuff on vinyl in addition to downloads, etc. All the other formats may be more convienent but are boring as f*ck in my opinion and in addition are not true to form. |
Posted By: mono
Date Posted: January 15 2010 at 02:23
hehehe, thank you for that, helped me start the day! ------------- https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else |
Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 10:24
| I sincerely hope and pray that CDs do not disappear soon. I love buying CDs and having the whole physical album so much more than buying electronically. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 11:26
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Anybody who says physical media will stop being sold is an idiot. . . . with all respect.
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 11:32
But why? It seems quite possible scenario. ------------- |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 11:35
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^ Not at all. As long as there is still a market for something, it will still be made available. Just look at vinyl. No . . . I expect purely digital media and physical media to co-exist for quite some time. And even when/if physical media no longer becomes the norm, there will still be a collector's market for it.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 11:54
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I honestly think that the CD will be gone be 2019, but I highly doubt that physical media will EVER go away. I'd estimate that by 2019 SACD's will have completely replaced CD's, but MP3's will never completely replace physical media. Audiophiles, collectors, and people like me who like to actually physically own something will be enough to keep the CD/SACD market alive and well. I love MP3's as temporary samples of bands, but I will always buy the album in physical form if I enjoy it. -Jeff -------------  Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:07
| ^ Jeff, what makes you think a virtually unknown format such as SACD will ever gain an edge over CD? |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:32
| Well, a lot of people are expecting the disappearance of the CD, but, since the lifetime of the mp3 files is rather dubious (evolution of the technology, problems of formats from a media to another, quick obsolescence), I guess many people will ask for any physical format to keep their music for more time than 10 or 15 years. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 12:49
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 14:12
We can say that. In a manner, this discussion makes me think of some pronostics of the past: it had been said that radio was about to kill the book and the newspapers; it had been said that cinema was about to kill radio, theater and books; it had been said that TV was about to kill cinema, books and radio... Now, we hear: "Internet is killing the press, the TV and the radio" or "MP3 will kill CD". I wonder why people can't accept the idea of a possible future in which music would be available in every format: CD, LP, MP3, DVD or even K7... |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:11
It's virtually unknown.... as of right now. Once the technology becomes less expensive to make, I'm confident that it will eventually get the edge over the CD. It's not going to happen over night (I think it should take at least 10 years), but the sound quality on SACD's is a hell of a lot better than on CD's, and I think because of that it will eventually edge the CD. ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:34
That's exactly my feeling. I find it hard to believe that a future exists in which only one format of entertainment is accepted.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 15:37
^ Yeah, but if CD is going the way of the dodo like you seem to think, why would people be game for yet another version of the very think they just 'moved on' from?  Now, bear in mind, I'm looking at this situation through the current general opinion. Me personally not believing at all that physical media is dying, can see a more possible way of SACD of HDCD type stuff catching on one day. However, that technology is already over a decade old. I just don't see how that particular case can be made. Maybe a higher-dynamic physical music form WILL come along one day that blows CD away, but as it stands right now nobody cares about SACD except for the most die-hard of audiophiles.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:11
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I use all forms of media...I'm an old vinyl freak, even have a few 8tracks laying around. I embrace digital media, love mp3 because they are easily played (Zune, iPod, car systems, home, computers....). With speakers that can handle the digital format the sound is amazing thru a home system. I remember back in the 70's it was all about watts, who had the receiver with the most watts output...Now it is more about 5.1 and 7.1 digital processing. Audio receiver pricing is pretty cheap, speaker pricing has held to the higher side...makes sense.
I doubt the CD goes away, as long as there are buyers it will remain....at least thru 2012
 I download a lot....Subscription music service is gonna get more popular, just like movie subscription has pushed out Hollywood Video. If you explore music and all genres as much as I do, I'd have to be a multi-millionaire to buy all the CD's I listen to. I pefer the subscription format, then if I like something I will buy a hardcopy or just buy the rented music and burn to a CD.
I do agree with the advent of CD's from vinyl, the artwork is what is lost, the liner notes, the big double album covers and so on....I do miss that.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:12
I'm not saying that CD will completely "go away", I just predict that SACD will eventually sell more than CD's. The same thing happened with vinyl. Many people still use it and buy it, but CD's have the edge over it. I realize that SACD's have been around for 10 years, but they are so expensive right now that people won't buy them. Once a more efficient way to make SACD is created, I'm sure it will be more widely distributed than it is right now. I don't think CD will ever completely go away, but I think that within the next 10 years more advanced forms of technology will outsell the CD. ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:18
| They still make SACD? I remember seeing come Can remasters being sold for cheap because nobody was buying into the format. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 17:29
Really? 'Cause I could have sworn you said this just moments ago:
Blu-Ray isn't even five years old yet, and it's already becoming more and more affordable. Why? Because people actually care enough to buy it. Cost efficiency comes as a result of customer support, not the other way around. If SACD technology were ever going to gain an edge over standard CD, I would have have expected it to happen by now.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 20:45
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Blu-ray is a completely different situation. The difference between DVD and blu-ray is HUGE, whereas the difference between CD and SACD is more subtle. When you add on the fact that SACD is significantly more expensive than CD, you're right - people will not be jumping out of their socks to invest in these. BUT when the technology becomes easier to produce, I would imagine that it will overrun the CD market. Not entirely (just like people still use DVD today), but I think it will become a major way of distributing music eventually. ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 27 2010 at 20:53
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You're repeating points I've already made pretty good arguments for in my last post. I gave Blu-Ray as an example because it is the same situation from a marketing point of view. I don't really care if the difference between Blu-Ray and DVD is more obvious that the difference between SACD and CD. That wasn't my point at all. My was simple: if people actually gave a damn, SACD would have overtaken CD ages ago, just like Blu-Ray is currently doing with DVD. The only reason the guys behind Blu-Ray technology have bothered to research ways of making the technology more affordable to produce is because they know they will make a profit. You say once the same happens with SACD, it will really take off, but as I just explained to you, that WON'T happen with SACD unless people support it already. They don't. So why would Sony and Phillips even bother researching more ways of affordably pushing SACD into the market, when Sony is already having success with Blu-Ray? It doesn't make sense. I love how you completely ignored the part of my post where I called you out on your contradiction, by the way.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 03:07
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The difference between Blu-Ray video and DVD video is plain to see for anyone who has anywhere near 100% visual acuity (given proper encodings in 720p or 1080p and proper playback equipment). The difference between CD, SACD and even MP3 (given proper encodings) is much less obvious, and even that is an euphemism, since there are numerous studies which show that even under ideal conditions (high end playback equipment, trained/experienced/professional listeners) people can't tell the sources apart. IMO this is what is killing CD. Not so much that there aren't any better disc formats available, but that MP3 is perfectly sufficient and delivers the same content without so much hassle, and at a lower price. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 03:22
| ^ People still like something they can hold. Bottom line. As long as they want that, the companies will still make them available. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:24
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^ Isn't music something to be heard rather than held in your hand? Maybe this insistence on a tangible medium rather comes from the fact that people got used to things being like that in the last 50+ years, than from it being necessary in order to value the actual music.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:47
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^ Associating something impalpable with a physical object isn't necessarily a shallow thing, a temporary fashion. Associating music with a physical support might stay longer than anyone would expect - remember when people started making books (the rolled ones, and, much later, the codex)? Many wise people complained that true poetry and knowledge will be lost by "freezing" them in the fashionable but "dead" support of the book, but two and a half thousands years have passed and books are still here to stay.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 04:59
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^ your analogy also works in favor of my argument ...
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 05:00
I can't see how... please expand |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 10:12
Remember when people started pressing music on discs (the vinyl ones, and, much later, the CDs)? Many wise people complained that true poetry and knowledge will be lost by "freezing" them in the fashionable but "dead" support of the disc, but more than 50 years have passed and discs are still here to stay. Remember when people started storing music as digital files (the mp3 ones, and, a while later, the lossless formats)? Many wise people complained that true poetry and knowledge will be lost by storing them in the fashionable but "dead" support of the computer hard/flash drive, but more than 50 years have passed and files are still here to stay. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 11:17
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^ I never heard anyone complaining about music in itself not being the same anymore, as if its essence was corrupted. I only heard people saying that the experience of listening to music is a much poorer one without the rituals and habits related to their discs/tapes/cassettes. Of course I've also heard people complaining about the sound quality of digital media but that doesn't count |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 11:33
I guess you're right. Let's all just download music to hard drives, iPods and usb cards. Then, ten years down the road, when those devises and all their backups fail, we'll just buy those digital downloads all over again! Oh, and not to mention we'll have to buy new hard drives, iPods, usb drives several times over, and back all of our music up all over again. Yeah . . . the future is really going to be convenient, huh? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 12:20
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That's quite a straw man argument, and I think you know. At least with digital data we *can* make backups. Back in the 90s when my entire vinyl collection was destroyed by a leaking pipe in the cellar, I certainly would have appreciated a backup. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 12:35
. . . aaaaand with Compact Disc, if handled properly, my album collection will outlive me by a significant number of years. So for those of us who enjoy the entire package (artwork, liner notes, the ability to place it on a shelf, etc.), all we have to do is make sure we properly store our music in a safe place, and we won't NEED to back anything up. Of course, us guys can back our collection up digitally as well if we wish, but then the digital backups are merely for storing in case of emergency and listening to music away from home. When I'm at home, I can still break out the actual disc and pop it in the stereo. I don't build straw men when I argue. If I didn't think I had a valid viewpoint, I wouldn't have chimed in to begin with. Look, you're going to defend your position regardless of what anybody else says, because you believe that you are on the correct side of the argument. I on the other hand merely state my case and if you don't agree, well then okay. I can understand the arguments on your side; I just don't personally agree with them. I say that physical media isn't going to die because a significant number of people still want that, but if you want to own all-digital, easily-corruptible data versions of your entire music collection, be my guest.
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Posted By: Ludjak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 12:38
| I wouldn't mind at all if vinyl replaces the CD, which is a reasonable option for the record companies if they want to keep their customers (it's much more difficult to copy a vinyl record than a CD). I'm not really fond of mp3, I mostly listen to music in mp3 because it's more convenient, but I do not by any means prefer it over physical media. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 12:53
Your straw man, in my opinion, was the notion that with digital downloads you'll have more trouble over the years than with CDs. I just think that it's obvious that this is not true. Put your files on a USB stick or a SD card and activate the write protection switch, and the data is as safe as anything you have on CD. And if ever in your lifetime computers won't have these interfaces anymore, you can be sure that there will be cheap replacements and plenty of time to copy your files. And while I don't think that anything you could say about the topic could change my mind, of course I'm always open to consider the possibility that I'm wrong. Feel free to point out any errors in my arguments, and I'll gladly re-evaluate my position. It seems to me though that all the technical issues aside, some people need something tangible while others don't. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 13:00
Vinyl is a whole other problem, though. I've been over this with folks before, but Vinyl is incredibly tricky to manage. First, if you are a really die-hard audiophile, you'll probably want an old-school, manually-controlled player, in which case you have to constantly make sure the rotation speed is consistent. Another thing to consider is that in order to get rid of those pops and ticks as you play the record itself, you need to own a special cleaner that costs a lot of money these days. Otherwise your music will sound like it's been recorded in the middle of a warzone. But hey, that's just me. I know a lot of people just love their crackly, broken music because that's what they are used to. They'll swear up and down that it sounds better, and nobody can convince them otherwise. I think that is probably what MrProgFreak is getting at: we tend to cling to our past times as if they are life support, when in reality the future we refuse to live in simply makes our enjoyment of things even easier and more convenient to achieve. In theory, I agree with that, but again, for the reasons I have mentioned, I personally think all-digital media is even more unreliable that CD ever thought of being. Yeah, it's convenient, but HDDs have a 50% failure rate, don't ya know. I'm not going to trust my music with such an unreliable system such as digital media storage. Maybe someday it will be more perfected. When that happens, I'll be more trusting of this. I just want to make sure all that great music I payed for won't be disappearing into thin air simply because I don't have the time to constantly be backing it up somewhere.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 13:08
USB sticks and SD cards are nowhere near as safe and reliable as the disc format when you take into account how easy it is to misplace something so tiny. I have heard more than one story about somebody leaving their USB card in their jeans, then forgetting about it and putting it in the wash. True, it may stil survive that, but what if it doesn't? How many Gbs of music could be lost in an instant just by one careless mistake? And yes, you are right about needing something tangible as well. I believe the album experience is more than just the music. Cearly the music itself is the most important part, but think about all those Yes fans who equate their listening experience with the Roger Dean posters that came with the packaging. Think about all that respect Pink Floyd and The Beatles got for the cover art of DSotM and Sgt. Pepper respectively. You honestly don't believe that contributed to the memorability of it at all? Last point: If every person were like you, and simply wanted to just listen to music and not actually own a physical album, what's stopping everybody from just downloading everything for free? For some people, the very selling point of music IS the deluxe packaging. May sound crazy to you, but not to those of us who don't see the point in paying for thin air.
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