Elitism in Prog?
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Topic: Elitism in Prog?
Posted By: elder08
Subject: Elitism in Prog?
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 13:42
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So many many people on the interwebs have stated prog fans are Elitest (I would say that an elitest comment but whatev) but from the looks of it after being on the forums for a bit it seems to me that most of us are more open minded and listen to alot of different genres
Opinions? ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Replies:
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 14:00
| Yes, we are an elite - but no, we are not elitist! |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 14:15
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It depends on the individual, surely? Some of us are more open-minded than others, but that's true of fans of any genre. |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 14:22
Well it seemed the as though the majority was more open minded. I'm grouping all prog fans together for this one.  ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: KnifeSkills
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 15:04
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Well, the thing that makes prog more compelling to us is that it's more complex and has higher technical abilities. I for one can enjoy simple indie tunes just as equally if they are well produced. But when you tell someone that you mainly listen to prog because it is more complex than most musical styles and demonstrates better techniques then you can easily sound like a snob even if you aren't one. And of course this perception of the style can easily elevate elitism in people who are already prone to such behaviors. So yes, I'd definitely say that prog fans as a whole are quite elitists, but as individuals I think plenty of us are alright. Also elitism doesn't necessarily mean that you're not open minded. But just the definition of prog makes it so that in the comparison between bands you'd sound like an elitist prick if you're not careful. "I prefer Dream Theater over Metallica because of the complexity and higher technical level." Could really be the same as saying "I like Panthera more because they are more brutal and have more intensity to their atmosphere." but guess which one sounds like you're saying that you're better? |
Posted By: WileyMarshall
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 15:35
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Of course progheads are elitists! Have you ever met one? We're usually so used to sitting by and watching other people talk about their music that we get excited when it's FINALLY our turn to talk about ours. Even if we aren't elitists, we sure as hell seem like 'em. But it really is easy to seem like an elitist when you listen to some of the most beautiful and unique music out there. (Now there's a song within a song) |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:06
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I don't think it is all that elitist to believe we are better than the rest of them....
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:07
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Yeah, we're elitist. We listen to music that requires attention and an open and receptive ear. We appreciate things that are complex(not to say that we don't also appreciate simpler music). It confused and confounded the guys I played football with in high school, back in the mid-seventies, when I had Tales from Topographic Oceans playing in the locker room. They'd ask me with disdain-what the f*#k is that crap and I'd try to explain and of course it's difficult not to sound elitist when explaining prog to some one who isn't into it at all. Another important point I do want to make is that one can be elitist without being an A-hole or prick. It's all about how we behave.
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Posted By: Lizzy
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:08
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Well, it's rather difficult to generalise the answer to the question because I'm not sure how many of us have met at least a prog fan in real life, and from a forum full of us it is even harder to tell how one acts outside this circle. And I agree with the above 'it depends on the individual'. Most of us here can speak for ourselves. If by elitist we mean snobbish and arrogant then, yes! I am one! (but getting treatment). But if we are talking about living in a prog shell and ignoring other genres, then the answer's no! I like to discover what others see for example in mainstream music and understand their preference for that, and their reluctance when it comes to prog. I can put myself in their shoes and analyse things from their point of view. And most of the time their reasoning has a fairly strong basis. ------------- Property of Queen Productions... 
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:37
WHAT? Prog isn't the best musical genre!? OMG!
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:43
What! Who? Where? Let's smoke 'm out and kick some sense into them! We may be elitist but we won't shy away from a good man to man fight!  |
elder08 wrote:Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:44
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Was that me above?  |
Posted By: tarkus1980
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 16:48
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I think prog fans are sometimes elitist, but I think that people who are anti-prog are often certainly just as snobby, if not more so. As long as prog fans don't talk about nonsense like the objective superiority of prog rock to other rock forms, or say things that imply prog rock is just a couple of steps below classical music in complexity and sophistication, or that rock music should be judged by how complex it is and how hard to play it is, they're just fine by me. ------------- "History of Rock Written by the Losers." |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 18:16
| Prog fans are the most elitist bunch I know, and I can legitimately say that because I'm a prog fan and nobody I know is more elitist than I am |
Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 18:49
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Yep, I'm an elitist... I only listen to good music, and prog just happens to be a genre full of a lot of good music! ------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 19:09
Have you ever visited another genre site?
Rap sites say they play the best music ever, Madonna, Micheael Jackson, etc have been proclaimed the best artist ever, even greatest than The Beatles.
Some other sites even insult other genres as crap and they are the saviours like Punk (Read Punk77)
On the other hand, you can come to Prog Archives and say Dream Theater,ELP and even Genesis are crap and nothing will happen, but if you dare to say you don't like Hip Hop or Rap, before ten minutes,somebody will call you close minded.
So who is the elitist?
We know what we like, but we talk about almost every genre, try going to a gangsta Rap site saying Prog is great...hey will hunt you as a dog.
Iván
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 19:14
There are other forms of elitism than musical elitism |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 19:21
But that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about Prog elitism, and that's related with music.
Of course we may have a couple of racists, fanatics or whatever but not more than in any other site, and as a fact I hardly seen a more tolerant site than his one.
Iván
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 19:57
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Hi,
I don't think that "prog" fans are any more elitist than "fan'atics" that think the world does not exist, except the band they like! ... good ... go spend your money so they can get more girls! I'm pretty sure that I could use them Kiss leather pants!
I do think that there is a big difference between a lot of "pop music fans" and "prog music fans", and usually we do not spend the time discussing a postion of someone's anatomy here, or weather Brittany went out without this or that ... and in fact there are times when the music discussions are out right so intelligent and out of town that many folks can not even handle it.
Other times some of us intentionally turn some people off and that might make us look/sound ellitist, but if you take things personal about some music that you like ... man ... you really need to get some therapy somewhere! Big time! ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 20:47
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I see a lot of elitism on these boards (and I have been guilty of it myself) mainly in the form of putting down fans of other styles of music as unsophisticated or closed-minded. I admit to being a music snob, but just because someone likes Pop or Punk doesn't make them an idiot. ------------- 
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 20:55
I am absolutely a prog elitist. Why settle for less? ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 21:04
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i am overweight, and sometimes eat too much when i listen to music- i suffer from "Willeatism in prog" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 21:05
And in no way are we going to let you into the club if you aren't one. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 21:36
Before Prog, I never really wanted to share what kind of music I was listening too. Nowadays, when I have friends in the car, or over my house, I put on some Prog and tell them, "Listen to this sick solo!" or, "This part is going to get intense!" They never seem to care 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 22:13
Yes, I agree with this. Also, it cannot be emphasised enough that prog is NOT the most complex/most sophisticated/most technical music out there...please venture out of your shell and listen to other music. If you dismiss jazz and classical as too posh or lacking energy, how are you any different from the people who say they can't listen to prog because it's too civilized, lengthy and boring? However, I agree with Ivan and moshkito too that it's not any more so than the fanboism you see in different genres or for different bands. A more interesting question is why music makes some people act so dumb?
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 22:17
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^Yeah, I think Ivan made some really excellent points.
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 22:29
Despite my earlier post, I actually agree. There is a lot to be gained from other music and prog is far from the only thing worth listening to. But honestly, whenever someone insults prog, we're still going to go into full on elitist mode and defend it, aren't we?  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 22:38
Of course! And why shouldn't we defend what we like against baseless arguments!  If it's constructive criticism, that's different. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:15
| prog is too civilized? I'd love an explanation of this |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:18
I know, but I get this a lot, especially from metalheads. I guess they mean it - 70s prog - sounds too polite without heavy, distorted, chugga-chugga riffs. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:29
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70s prog =/= all prog and you should just throw down some Magma if they tell you it's not rude enough |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:30
Honestly, this is one of the few forums in which we discuss other genres,.............How can that be elitist?
This is elitism (Always mention this site):
http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheearth.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/whendinosaursromaedtheearth.htm
http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/dinosaurspart2.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/dinosaurspart2.htm
http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/youshouldneverhaveopendthat.htm - http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/youshouldneverhaveopendthat.htm http://www.punk77.co.uk/punkhistory/youshouldneverhaveopendthat.htm -
I have seen people that doesn't like Punk here, but to waste full pages of the main site to insult other genres in order to feel superior...That's elitism and could use another adjectives.
Now, I hardly know any member that likes exclusively Prog, yes of course I listen more Prog than other genres, but I have at least 300 albums from Pop, Classic Rock, Metal, Jazz and Classical, even 5 salsa albums (all by Ruben Blades) and Cuban Nueva Trova (Despite being anti-communist).
Now, if somebody believes that not liking Rap or Hip Hop is elitism, I don't agree, it's simply that we have a defined taste, and there is music I don't like, starting with most King Crimson and Gentle Giant.
Iván
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:31
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But they like prog metal. See, that's why I mentioned 70s prog in particular. They like stuff with riffs, as simple as that. Most such people generally like Rush but not stuff like Genesis or Gentle Giant, to say nothing of stuff like Egg or Supersister. There's no way you'll get them to listen to Magma, they'll say it's too bizarre or drugged or whatever.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 03 2010 at 23:33
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lol @ punks thinking they're better than anyone ps I agree with a couple of their (slightly exaggerated) points |
Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 01:54
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We're elitist because we care. Because obviously if you don't defend your favourite band with reckless abandon, and no thought to any proof of your wild arguments, you aren't really a fan.
there, do I get to learn the secret prog handshake now?  ------------- 'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 01:54
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I can understand the controversy. I'm willing to tell in a very excited way about how much I like my music. I also have trouble being happy for others who like IMHO less good music (let's say populair music and dong-dong-dong-dong music). This makes me soud like I think I'm the elite. I reality I just have a hard time to cope with the fact that I listen to music that nobody knows except my brother. It gives me the image I'm weird, which makes me want to fight back people who think that. I won't speak for others, but this might be the root of our problem here. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:20
Well, it could be construed as elitist if you openly sound to them like you scorn their music...this is ground that must be carefully negotiated and it's easy to over generalize. I am sure if I say Stevie Wonder is my favourite Western music artist within the umbrella of pop/rock (including prog), most people here will think of I Just Called To Say I Love You or Part Time Lover and smirk. But what if I say I also love KC, Magma, Gentle Giant, Can among others? We cannot assume that popular music is bad by virtue of its being popular. I don't even know how people go around with that view when we know how popular Beatles are. You may not find something to like in Beatles or Stevie's music but that certainly doesn't imply that they lack merit or people who consider them amongst the foremost music artists (within rock/pop categories, that is) need to be pitied upon. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:21
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:27
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:30
One thing I want to bring up here is prog is not a genre in the same sense as, say, metal. It's more of an approach to songwriting. There are attempts to discern what is prog and classify it into sub categories but you'll see these are also fairly inclusive. Therefore, it would be a bit surprising, if anything, to see progheads of all people profess closemindedness to other genres because prog emerges out of blending other genres. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:40
Yes I agree with this. But thats why I am surprised to see people say that people on here are closed-minded ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:45
Well, there IS not much acceptance of pop, or rather it's met with indifference and some people still can't forget the prog-punk war, so thellama is right about that. It's a different kind of close mindedness, it's not in the sense of not listening to anything that's not metal, people get so used to epics and odd time signatures that they tend not to take something without those seriously especially if it's not called prog but neither are pre-requisites to make great music. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:57
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: The Hemulen
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 02:57
I think you might be onto something there. Something I think prog fans can be very guilty of (and I include myself in this) is looking for prog in other music, almost as a justification for listening to it. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:12
Within the spectrum of whatever is at least somewhat related to prog, that is. There's not much interest in pop or jazz or classical for that matter. You can see yourself that these threads don't last long. There's also not much interest in the alternative scene, very surprising considering how much fellato is heaped on PT. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:14
Yes, I was addressing that. It's not necessarily a bad thing but the reverse, that music without prog is not worth bothering with, can restrict your horizons as a listener. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:16
 ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:21
It is a prog forum and that's why discussions on other genres are taken to general music. That much is clear. I am asking a broader question: since very few of us can claim prog as the only kind of music we have ever had any familiarity with - we all work our way to it through some other music one way or the other, that's the fate of all progheads - , is it not surprising that interest in non prog artists per se would be low? I mean, even if most people are not, at a given point of time, listening to non prog (which is reasonable in a prog forum), you'd expect some memories being shared at least. Haven't seen much of that here, generally. Another thing I have noticed is that when recommending a non prog artist in the general music section, people try to concoct some prog connection and suggest that some songs are proggy to get people interested. That should not, in theory, be necessary, right? |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:31
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:32
yeah there's some good music within the realms of popular music. But the problem is that I'm a musician who can hear all clichés, all stolen melodies (even when hidden) and all lack of inspiration. Bad music sometimes gives me the feeling I have to vomit (no joke). It's hard to hide your true opinion that way. Furthermore I would like to add to the discussion that 'elitism' isn't that bad a word. There's an elite in F1 racing, an elite in kitchen disign, etc. Some people are just knowledgeable about a certain subject and I do feel I've got lot's of more talents in listening and analyzing and thus rating music then most others around. I have the ability to enjoy music that isn't sympathetic, easy-listening, modern or drilled in by television. And I do have the will to listen to hard music ten times knowing it will grow on me (perhaps even becoming one of my favorite albums). A lot of others might discard music because of these elements. So yeah.. maybe I'm on a certain elite positions when it comes to music. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:33
| I would like to add that sometimes mankind needs an elite to raise the quality of art. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:37
But are you saying there's no lack of inspiration ever to be found in the realms of prog? It's just more easily found in the mainstream because there are more bands. I agree with the rest of your points about elitism. I don't defer to people who treat music as background entertainment, I do perceive more about music than them. I was only trying to say that sometimes there may be music that appeals to both groups of people so we have to be careful when we generalize. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:40
I disagree with this. I have been involved in discussions on prog in metal forums and nobody compared Genesis to Opeth or something like that. What you are saying goes back to what Trouserpress mentioned, there is a tendency to look for a prog connection where there may be none, nor is it necessary for the music to be good. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:46
im saying assuming there is actually a link, not just sporadically likening opeth to genesis. I mean generally you are going to be recommending prog bands on prog forums... and metal bands on metal forums. of course there will be overlap and exceptions also ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:49
In the prog sections and metal sections, respectively. In the general section, there's no attempt from what I have seen to somehow link up bands that are as far away from metal as South Pole from North to metal. But as I said, there is a tendency to proggy-fy non prog artists here. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 03:54
------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 06:43
There are enough clichés to be found in the world of progressive rock. Songs, albums or even bands who are driven by progressive rock clichés have to have an extraordinarily quality on other grounds then innovation, will they ever earn a place in my collection. This is the reason I only look for the Progressive (with the big P) seventies prog. And there is one exception: if mellotron, then good (clichés are acceptable in some casus). |
Posted By: Devonsidhe
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 07:26
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[/QUOTE] There are enough clichés to be found in the world of progressive rock. QUOTE] This reminds me of a quote from Randy Bachman which I will have to paraphrase since it has been so long since I've read it: "If you write a song that has borrowed one aspect of another song, it is called a cliche but if you borrow two or more aspects from different sources and blend them into a song, you get called brilliant." Makes me wonder if cliches and inspiration are opposite aspects of the same thing?
I agree that even prog does have cliches and I think all forms of music will have that as well as any medium of creativity. In order to create, you must have inspiration. If you don't get that far from what inspires you, it will become a cliche.
But, I digress since the thread is about elitism. Like all things, it can be good or bad. It depends on how it is done. If I am telling someone their music is bad because prog is good, I am being a close-minded elitist (bad). If I am telling someone their song is either good or ok, would you like to try this one?, then I am being an open-minded prog-supporter (good). Most of the time, I get the feeling that the progger is a victim of elitism rather than the other way around. I had someone play me a boy band tune one time and it wasn't bad. But, when I offered to play them a song I bought (prog), they wouldn't even listen to it and looked at me like I had an infectious disease. ------------- Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 09:09
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There's something people haven't mentioned. Elitism is a term that many outside Prog use, more because of the artists than because of the fans. For example: Emerson Lake & Palmer blended Classical with Rock, then he must be elitist and self indulgent Rick Wakeman uses capes, then he must be self indulgent, cheesy and plays music only for a bunch of nerds who feel better than the rest of the world.. A guy called C. Bottomley from HTV made a disgusting review of Kansas album Point of Know Return that was erased from their archives because of the protest of Prog fans, he called Kansas elitist and self indulgent because a bunch of guys from Topeka dared to use violin and complex arrangements in their music (I believe he described them as dressed like farmers and called Rich Williams truck sized). I remember a Karaoke singer in American Idol sung a STYX song and Mr. Cowell called it a self indulgent elitist song. Some people believe that Rock has to be simple, repetitive and able to be listened by everybody, but this is not truth, all the genres, even POP or Punk or whatever, are only for one sector of the musical audience, some of this sectors are bigger than others, but nothing is for everybody. Iván -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 09:23
To be clear, I wasn't saying that prog fans are closed-minded. I was saying they accuse others of being closed-minded if they don't like prog, but your point is well taken. -------------
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Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 10:02
Ah i see, yes sorry i see what you mean and i agree ------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 10:04
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As many of you have just mentioned, prog fans tend to be open minded to music, and that's the reason we like prog, since you have to be quite open minded to lend an ear to a piece of music that has no support from any radio station, producer, music critics (who normally know nothing about writing and composing music), or any other source. Since progressive music has been consistently suppressed by the music industry in general, it is no wonder that prog fans tend to be quite assertive when speaking about it, and it might seem that we are quite fanatic about it. I mean, obviously it might seem quite strange for most people that we are always on the look for that old record that was produced in the late 60s or early 70s, a record which only a few copies were made, that we are obsess with having the complete collection of a band that nobody knows, and we speak in a very analytical fashion over a piece of music. But hey, that what is required to understand prog, and for the average person that is only interested in a simple beat to dance to, it will seem that elitism is a good word to describe us. the fact is, progressive music needs a lot of attention while listening to be able to understand it, to assimilate it, and is not something that most people are willing/ready to do, so we'll always have certain stigmas attached to us, like elitist, fanatics, weird, obsessed, etc. |
Posted By: bsms810
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 10:07
), this is a very good point, and something i can see in prog fans (especially myself) when i find myself getting frustrated by people refusing to listen to prog. I know i shouldnt...------------- 'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?' 'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 11:32
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 13:27
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Something I actually see alot is Metal elitism but maybe thats just me I listen to a broad spectrum of music , Is prog the best hell yes it is but I am open minded when it comes to any thing other than mainstream rap and pop (ewwwwww) ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 17:49
I hear you there. People are like "what ya listening to?" and I say "Tortoise" or "Can" or "Magma" or "Gong" and they say "O really? What's that?" and I say "post rock" or "krautrock" or "zeuhl" or "canterbury rock" and they say "wtf you made that sh*t up" |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 17:56
See, I take a kind of pride in listening to stuff no one has heard of, which is part of my music snobbery, I guess. On more than one occasion I have answered the question "what bands do you like" with "You wouldn't have heard of them." which sounds incredibly snobby. I try not to do that anymore. -------------
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 19:53
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lol all of this applies to me
------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: May 04 2010 at 22:40
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Ahem. Well, I joined this site hoping to find individuals who were open minded, well-read and able to support their points of view with logical arguments, examples and references; and not by insulting another's person's opinion with personal attacks. For the most part, I have found the people who participate in these forums to be of such ilk. If that makes them elitists, then hats off to elitists!
------------- "The pointy birds are pointy pointy Anoint my head anointy nointy" Steve Martin The Man With Two Brains |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 01:33
| I couldn't actually care less what people think in this respect.I seek out and listen to music that suits me and that I enjoy. If other people don't do that then they are stupid. Why is it that people can't be happy enjoying their own thing? My guess is envy! |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 13:17
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There are a lot of moments on this board where I have read a topic and I have AT LEAST once facepalm'd at the site of one member's posts, mainly a moderator. It's not elitism, it's pseudo-intellectualism, which is why I can't regard these boards, let alone any stereotypical progressive rock fan as a respectable human. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 15:15
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 17:09
I guess that leaves me out!
Oh well, I always thought that foreigners didn't stand a chance next to London'ers or English speaking folks ... and it is still true! (At least I can say that!)  ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Thommy Rock
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 17:22
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I listen to Prog because I'm an open-minded elitist. ------------- "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" FZ |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 17:31
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Haha, well said. I like that. ^^^ ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 20:27
I understand what you're saying.
I won't name names but there are certainly some reviews on this site that are really facepalm inducing. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 22:34
Of course you won't say names here, you only mention names at heir back and on another forums also attack members of Prog Archives plus those who don't speak English as a first language
I'm sure you never believed PA member would read your pffensive posts in other forums. BTW: Seems you dislike foreigners who don't speak English as a first language, but your use of language spraks about you.
Don't think we didn't read your "nice" posts against Sean Trane and in general about the Collaborators of PA on Music Banter
But no problem, you thought about me for 5 years, I didn't even remember you existed until I read your post on DDD, and tomorrow I will forget you again.
Iván
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 05 2010 at 23:03
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That rings strongly of irony "those other people, they're such inconsiderate a****les, they're so rude and slanderous etc. " |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 02:15
I wish people would stop these vague attacks on unnamed members (or even worse, the "some members here", which makes me wonder if the person could even name specific examples, vague impressions are rarely accurate.*). I'm all for complaining, but it's no use complaining if nobody else knows what you're talking about, unless this whole thing is a wink and a nudge towards the "Why do people listen punk/rap/Mariah Carey?" threads, which do definitely exist. Also, what the hell, people talk about us on other forums? Why would anybody on Music Banter care about Ivan or Sean Trane? Am I internet famous without even knowing about it? *To be fair, I also cannot name a specific example of somebody claiming mainstream rock fans are close-minded, although I remember it being said, but my problem is that people will occasionally accuse avant-garde fans here, of course never naming anybody, of various things, and I've never seen somebody here act "elitist" or whatever about avant-garde music. Although I don't remember when that happened either. ;-)
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 02:26
This is all very recognizable
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Posted By: OT Räihälä
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 06:46
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There is no such thing as elitism, as belonging to the elite is not an ism. A true member of the elite would never claim that or make any fuss about it, meaning that non-elite people don't know who really belong to the elite. Stating this doesn't make me a member of any elite, because claiming so would kick me out of the elite. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/osmotapioraihala/sets" rel="nofollow - Composer - Click to listen to my works! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 07:27
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 10:25
Ha, I'm a member of Music Banter, did you look me up or something?
And yeah, I've certainly brought up Ivan on there before. I don't think you have ever come into discussion though.
I don't mean to come off as saying all prog fans are closed minded douches, closed minded prog fans aren't any more closed minded than other fanboys who can't appreciate anything beyond their favorite genre. It may seem cowardly that I won't name specific members I have a problem with but I don't want to cause a scene or anything. It's no one who has posted on this thread in particular.
Just those who are prone to writing something off by merely stating what it's genre is "this is pop/hard rock so nothing good here obviously", not a direct quote but an example of the kinda dialogue that bothers me, and let's not lie, there's people like that lurking around here.
Perhaps I'm letting the worst examples cloud my judgement, I don't mean to imply that the whole forum is like this, I don't know any of you that well at all. Thus I'm impartial as far as a lot of the forum's members are concerned.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 10:52
So the Collaborators and Administrators are here in the same sack...Of course it's easy to talk on our backs than say it here.
Or
You don't talk about a couple, you talk about site full middle aged elitist snobs.
So don't come as a balanced poster, Henry had the b*lls to talk about your post in front of you, not where you can't read it.
BTW: It was funny to see how your brave and provocative posts ceaed as art of magic when Certif1ed found you
No more posts from you
  Iván
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:05
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Ah, I seen you've done some investigative journalism there.
You realise this is gonna get ugly now.
I don't think there's anything rulebreaking about speaking my opinions on this site on another forum entirely (one of which I have stopped posting on for the time being), sneaky yes, but it's not breaking a rule, that's different from starting crap on this forum which I have no intention of doing.
Under normal circumstances I would be more blunt and straightforward with people (which I am on the other forums I visit, which you surely know from experience) but this site has a reputation of being incredibly strict, you probably think I'm a total jerk and you have a right to that opinion but I'm not breaking any rule in particular.
I admit I'm not your biggest fan, but I have no intention of clashing with you here. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:12
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Didn't make journalism, made a search on my name with Google and found this crap.
I'm sure of this, courage is required and you only clash where people can't reply you.
BTW: Breaking rules.....No
I may respect people who break rules for a valid reason, I would never respect people who talk about others on their backs.
So, don't worry, this won't get ugly, neither you or your posts are worth that.
Iván
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:21
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It's not like you have uncovered a great mystery, you already know from our little clash at DDD 6 years ago (I don't really hold a grudge over that anymore though) that we don't like each other too much.
Don't worry, just because I surpress my most negative feelings about particular members doesn't mean I'm gonna suck up to them, if someone makes a statement I find very questionable, I will challenge it, but I will be fair and not let my personal feelings get in the way (like I did during our initial conflict). ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:28
Finish your sentence:
"if someone makes a statement I find very questionable, I will challenge it. in a forum they never visit and they will never read it, so I can insult him with pleasure, using the most vulgar words and with no risk to be replied because my debate skills are limited to "f**k you die"
That would be more accurate...But no point to continue in this, being you don't like foreigners neither middle aged people and I'm in both categories, plus I don't care.
Just wanted people to know who you are...And they know.
Iván
Edit: What conflict? I believe it was more important for you more than for me
Plus, I'm not scared of conflicts I respect people who disagree, you simply insulted us on another site believeing nobody would ever notice...Very brave -------------
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:39
Yeah, I can't deny that my debating skills back then were really terrible, but I don't do that anymore, though I can still lose my cool with people who are not worth engaging in civil debate with anyway.
It's understandable that you think of me as a snake, but I'm not posting on this forum to win a personality contest, I'm just giving my opinions on musical matters, that's all.
Despite my issues with you and other people who run this site, this is one of my favorite sites for music recommendations, and for that I give you props for your contributions, even if I'm not fond of your statements.
So some member of this forum is a backstabbing jerk, that's not gonna make headline news or anything. It's not like I'm a very well liked member to begin with.
I'm done discussing this, come back to me when I attack someone on THIS forum. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 11:42
Your words not mine.
But this is enough for me, I have other things to worry for that really matter.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 13:29
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Hi,
Gents ... can we stay on topic and be nice? ... we can agree to disagree once in a while. And when it comes down to it, all the word means is that some folks are not interested in discussion and friendly chat.
This place is for friendly chat about music! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 13:49
We can agree to disagree Moshkito, and we usually do, but I can't accept that a person comes here saying:
But this same person hidding under a nickname, goes to at least two other forums to call us using our real names, adjectives as:
1.- Ignorants,
2.- Elitists,
3.- Snobbs,
4.- Douchebag
5.- Crap
6.- a****les
5.- etc
And what is worst,. he goes to forums where we are not members, so we never know..
Then he comes here and admits it (well, the evidence is clear), and instead of apologising, he said he broke no rules.
I can't accept that Moshkito, can't do anything, but at least let people know who this guy is
But now, lets go back to the issue.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 14:07
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Hi,
Ivan ... that's something for the administrators on the board, please. Let's stay on topic here. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 14:23
I understand your concern Moshkito and I excuse myself for he problems , but Adms can't do a thing because the attack was made in another forum.
So my duty is to warn the members, because if boo boo doesn't like what they say, their nicks and/or names (Yes, some of us use our names or add our names to the nick), can be dragged in the mud on any other place. But I had stopped this two posts ago, so lets leave it there, people is warned. Iván. -------------
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Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 14:26
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f**k guys this isnt for rage it was an opinion thread about the subject not your needless bickering thank you ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 14:43
Family Feud , progressive version! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 06 2010 at 16:39
| I think it's funny that Boo Boo makes fun of the fact that Ivan is not a native English speaker, but Ivan creates the impression of being a much better English speaker |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 10:09
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My issue was more the sweeping generalizations he used. Sure there are plenty of questionable reviews, but there are also a lot that are well done. Not everyone instantly dismisses everything that's not "prog." Anyway, back to the topic... I was thinking about this the other day because I've been coming into contact with more and more hipsters, who are, for the most part, insufferable music snobs. To me, a sense of musical superiority is fine if it's justified - I don't really like a lot of Mozart's music, but I have no problem admitting that he was a greater musical genius than most of my favourite artists combined. But the problem with hipsters is that it's not justified. Indie music isn't this inventive, cutting edge music. It's just a bunch of artists taking pop songs and adding in odd melodies, cluster harmonies in the vocals, or slightly unusual instrumentation, and then calling it a day, thinking that makes them unique or creative when in reality, they are neither. But then that got me thinking, are we prog fans any different? What do you think? |
Posted By: Devonsidhe
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 12:52
I'd say we aren't any different on a general rule. Any group of fans will have the same generic type of fan spread throughout. It is the inidividual fan that can't be typecast unless the commentor is familiar enough with that individual to make that comment.
To me, an elitist is someone who loves his particular genre exclusively. He doesn't listen to anything else. That is fine by itself but if that same fan judges another genre is bad because it isn't his genre, then he is being a snob. ------------- Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 07 2010 at 15:44
I think you, or all of us, are reading a lot more into it than really is there.
No one here, is saying that Mozart, Beethoven, anyone else in the history of music is better or worse than any rock musician out there. What I, personally, have said, is that in my book, there is a lot of rock music, and we happen to call some of it "progressive" because we have no other term for something we like ... not because the "term" means that the music is really progressive. And I happen to think that there is a lot of rock music that is far better than many well known "composers" of classical music!
ALL MUSIC is progressive in one way or another and is almost exclusively "reactive" which would tend to suggest that a lot of new music is created from a reaction to the previous styles and ways with music ... and that would mean that ALL music is progressive! ... but we want to specify a period where "rock" music now became a lot more than just "pop" music ... and this is what you and I really want to get to!
A lot of "unusual instrumentation" is often based on other things, like different cultures, different instruments, different feelings, accidental hits and so forth ... or if you really want a good example we can even throw in the diaper example for you (Toni Levin) ... all it tells you that many people's inspirations is to do and find "something different" with which to express themselves ... and in those years the ability and desire to do so was a lot more open than it is today ... when people like you and I have a tendency to think that what we know is right and anything else can't be as right ... which you and I know is wrong!
So, don't confuse "elitism" with "ignorance" or "lazyness" ... meaning that some of the folks are not able to read past the three minute song format ... or three sentence format ... or three minute orgasm! And all I'm saying is that there is out there a much longer thing, process and ... whatever it is called ... that illicits other words and expressions, and you and I must be sensitive to that.
The rest and the majority of this whole thread? ... I probably would have ditched half of it by now and taken a couple of people off the board for 3 days each. I don't want to lose them, and I don't want to get mad at them, but I need them all to learn to be nicer to each other and also learn to appreciate something different ... also in music. It starts with the person ... and here we are!
So, progressive, regressive or idiot? ... that is the question! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |