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Best Kate Bush "clone" ?

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Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: General Music Discussions
Forum Description: Discuss and create polls about all types of music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67577
Printed Date: December 19 2014 at 20:42
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Topic: Best Kate Bush "clone" ?
Posted By: lucas
Subject: Best Kate Bush "clone" ?
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:30
Tough choice, all 3 are great singers (for those who don't know Maï, she is the voice of the RIO/Zappa-inspired band Hardscore).
 
This poll is actually intended to discuss singers with a voice similar to Kate Bush, so if you know others than the ones listed in teh poll, please feel free to share their name.


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)



Replies:
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:52
I wouldn't say that Tori Amos' voice has similarity to that of Kate Bush, but her music does.
I don't know the other two, so I can't vote.

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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 03:05
Heart Nerina Pallot... not a Kate Bush clone, but certainly influenced by her.  


Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 03:50
I'm a big Bush/Amos fan but I don't even know the other too.
 
Amos doesn't sing like Bush, but she writes vocal parts and lyrics like her.


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:52
Happy Rhodes.  She's amazing.  She has a two range voice she can turn like the flip of a switch.  One voice is just like Kate Bush, the other is just like Annie Lennox.  The music is good too.  Check her out. 


http://www.frazzledglispa.com/FrazzledGlispa.com/Meaningless_Blather/Entries/2007/8/11_Current_iTunes_Track_-_Happy_Rhodes_-_Many_Worlds_Are_Born_Tonight_files/shapeimage_1.png


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Merry Christmas!





Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 05:01
Tori ain't no clone, she is damn fine in her own rightApprove

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: Kotro
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 06:24
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Happy Rhodes.  She's amazing.  She has a two range voice she can turn like the flip of a switch.  One voice is just like Kate Bush, the other is just like Annie Lennox.  The music is good too.  Check her out. 


http://www.frazzledglispa.com/FrazzledGlispa.com/Meaningless_Blather/Entries/2007/8/11_Current_iTunes_Track_-_Happy_Rhodes_-_Many_Worlds_Are_Born_Tonight_files/shapeimage_1.png
 
If it's clones we're talking about, I wouldn't include Happy in this group - even though Kate is a huge influence on her. Her compositions are a lot more minimalistic and her vocal range a lot more diverse than Kate's. She doesn't imitate, which is what clones do, and manages to create a very different act altogether.  


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Bigger on the inside.


Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 06:27
I see this thread in a new light since I've heard about the creation of artificial life (see Moris' http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67585&PID=3660465#3660465 - thread ) LOL


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 06:51
As the only one of the multitude of female singers compared with Kate Bush to actually bear much similarity, Florence and the Machine is by far the best. Not particularly similar vocal wise but compare some of the tracks on "Lungs" with something like "Sat in our Lap".
 
Vocally and musically speaking, the latest Joanne Newsom CD is a clone of "The Kick Inside".


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http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 07:57
^
I used the word "clone" for a lack of other word. I meant actually Kate Bush-like vocals, not necessarily similar musically speaking.
 
And Finnf. is right about Happy Rhodes.


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 09:05
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Happy Rhodes.  She's amazing.  She has a two range voice she can turn like the flip of a switch.  One voice is just like Kate Bush, the other is just like Annie Lennox.  The music is good too.  Check her out. 


http://www.frazzledglispa.com/FrazzledGlispa.com/Meaningless_Blather/Entries/2007/8/11_Current_iTunes_Track_-_Happy_Rhodes_-_Many_Worlds_Are_Born_Tonight_files/shapeimage_1.png
 
If it's clones we're talking about, I wouldn't include Happy in this group - even though Kate is a huge influence on her. Her compositions are a lot more minimalistic and her vocal range a lot more diverse than Kate's. She doesn't imitate, which is what clones do, and manages to create a very different act altogether.  
Doesn't imitate? On many songs she sounds exactly like Kate Bush not just similar. Aside from the musical vocal characteristic simularities (intonation, diction, phrasing etc) Bush sings in an English accent, which is unusual for pop singers - when using her "Kate Bush" voice, Rhodes does too (unlike Amos, who always keeps her American accent, even though she's lived and recorded in the UK for many years now). On many of Rhode's songs where she uses both of her normal singing voices it sounds like she's duetting with Bush. (eg "Temporary & Eternal" from Equipoise or " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlOLdubBF2k - Big Dreams, Big Life " from Building The Colossus). Musically Rhodes is nothing like Bush or Amos (however I feel there are some simularities to Peter Gabriel in some of her songs).
 
 
Anyway, my favorite Bush/Amos clone is Jemima Price: http://www.myspace.com/jemimaprice - http://www.myspace.com/jemimaprice
My Photos | Jemima Price | Jemima Price
 


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 09:15
This thread really bites because while I know Kate and Tori's stuff well, I'm being given a whole bunch of other artists I should check out. LOL

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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 09:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Happy Rhodes.  She's amazing.  She has a two range voice she can turn like the flip of a switch.  One voice is just like Kate Bush, the other is just like Annie Lennox.  The music is good too.  Check her out. 


http://www.frazzledglispa.com/FrazzledGlispa.com/Meaningless_Blather/Entries/2007/8/11_Current_iTunes_Track_-_Happy_Rhodes_-_Many_Worlds_Are_Born_Tonight_files/shapeimage_1.png
 
If it's clones we're talking about, I wouldn't include Happy in this group - even though Kate is a huge influence on her. Her compositions are a lot more minimalistic and her vocal range a lot more diverse than Kate's. She doesn't imitate, which is what clones do, and manages to create a very different act altogether.  
Doesn't imitate? On many songs she sounds exactly like Kate Bush not just similar. Aside from the musical vocal characteristic simularities (intonation, diction, phrasing etc) Bush sings in an English accent, which is unusual for pop singers - when using her "Kate Bush" voice, Rhodes does too (unlike Amos, who always keeps her American accent, even though she's lived and recorded in the UK for many years now). On many of Rhode's songs where she uses both of her normal singing voices it sounds like she's duetting with Bush. (eg "Temporary & Eternal" from Equipoise or " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlOLdubBF2k - Big Dreams, Big Life " from Building The Colossus). Musically Rhodes is nothing like Bush or Amos (however I feel there are some simularities to Peter Gabriel in some of her songs).
 
 
Anyway, my favorite Bush/Amos clone is Jemima Price: http://www.myspace.com/jemimaprice - http://www.myspace.com/jemimaprice
My Photos | Jemima Price | Jemima Price
 
 
Great !
 
musically-speaking it reminds me of Necko Case and the late Eva Cassidy, both great voices.
 


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 09:32
Kotro, I did not mean Happy is a "clone" of Kate.  Nobody can clone Kate as far as I'm concerned.  I took the thread to be about artists of a similar sounding voice to Kate, which Happy possesses when she wants to. 

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Merry Christmas!





Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 10:06
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

This thread really bites because while I know Kate and Tori's stuff well, I'm being given a whole bunch of other artists I should check out. LOL
I'm surprised you haven't availed yourself of a little Happy-ness by now Brian - highly recommended Big smile

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:13
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

This thread really bites because while I know Kate and Tori's stuff well, I'm being given a whole bunch of other artists I should check out. LOL
I'm surprised you haven't availed yourself of a little Happy-ness by now Brian - highly recommended Big smile

Well, I guess I'm going to have to become a Rhodes scholar.

I just ordered three.  If I don't like them I will track everyone down and do mean things to each of you.Tongue


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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 14:53
^
Happy Rhodes is an amazing singer !


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 21 2010 at 21:06
Actually Tori really plays piano more like Kate, her singing style is somewhat like Joni Mitchell's, only livelier and more fiery.  Joanna Newsom sounds closest to Kate, from the ones I haven't heard (and haven't heard any of those other names).


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 22 2010 at 07:30
Wow, someone voted for Maï !
Glad to see that someone else know and appreciates the prog band Hardscore !

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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: andeehunt
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 01:34

Tori Amos has been the most prominent Kate Bush clone in recent history. She has been ripping off of Kate. Her music sounds exactly like Kate Bush in every way, including the topics. Tori dyes her hair red to look different, but she is a natural brunette. Just like Kate. She probably mimics Kate’s bush too, but Kate’s is obviously more majestic and stylish.







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http://www.r4karte.de/ - m3 karte


Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 09:39
Bjork

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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 24 2010 at 11:43
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bork2.jpg">
?
Tongue


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Posted By: Progist
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 11:48
I vote for Natasha Khan of Bat For Lashes, there is a big Kate Bush - Bjork influence going on there for sure Wink


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 15:04
^
Never noticed the KB connection, more the heavenly/dream pop school. Will have to listen again to my two BfL albums.


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 15:08
What, no mention of Jane Siberry or Toyah?


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 15:10
^
oh yes Toyah Thumbs Up :






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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 15:16
Émilie Simon's voice has often been compared to Bush's.

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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira

- Paul Éluard


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 16:06
My second Happy arrival has her doing a Yes medley that includes Soon.  I don't think calling her a Bush clone is disparaging at all.  Vocally speaking she does come fairly close and I like it. Big smile


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 16:09
Brian, what did you get?

I recommend "Many Worlds are Born Tonight" and "Building the Colossus", though really, all of them are pretty good. 


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Merry Christmas!





Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: May 29 2010 at 16:19
Paula Cole (is featured on PG's 'secret world' live)



from 2:20 to the end -> impossible not to think of KB, and the uilleann pipes make the comparison even more likely

And I completely forgot Jenny Sorrenti of Saint-Just fame (but she sang before KB so it would be the other way around for the influence...) :




And what about Monika Edvardsen of the band Atrox, which was tagged schizophrenic metal by their members, and one can understand why after listening to this :




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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 07 2010 at 16:42
Bought recently the last album of Joanna Newsom. It reminds me a lot of the first KB albums :




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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: omri
Date Posted: June 10 2010 at 11:25
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Bought recently the last album of Joanna Newsom. It reminds me a lot of the first KB albums :


Also bought recently this one (I also own YS) and I don't find it very close to Kate Bush. I agree the voices are a bit similar but that's realy all.


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omri


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 10 2010 at 12:49
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Brian, what did you get?

I recommend "Many Worlds are Born Tonight" and "Building the Colossus", though really, all of them are pretty good. 

All my orders have arrived.  I got Many Worlds, Warpaint, The Keep, and one she makes an appearance on: Will Ackerman's Hearing Voices.  All good.  I guess I'll have to order Colossus after I've worn these out a little. Big smile


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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 10 2010 at 13:53
The best Kate Bush clone is, always has been, and always will be, Susan Ballion. This comparison was first noted sometime in the mid eighties by one of the glossy music rags, and it still holds true. No other female singers on the planet comes as close in stature to the breadth of musical talent, song-writing ability, influence and down right iconic uber-coolness of these two. At first glance there appears to be nothing that would remotely compare them as "clones"; but their diametric opposites is what pairs them as clone and anti-clone.
 
 


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2010 at 01:36
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Bought recently the last album of Joanna Newsom. It reminds me a lot of the first KB albums :



Certain songs have a Kate Bush vibe, like "Kingfisher." This album has yet to really connect with me. I personally think Newsom peaked with the quaint, simple songs on The Milk-Eyed Mender, but YS would surpass it if the songs were rearranged and the strings were toned down or reorchestrated until not so cheesy. 


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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!


Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 05:43
http://blissout.blogspot.com/2011/02/heres-my-review-of-let-england-shake.html" rel="nofollow">This is funny LOL

Not that I'd classify PJ Harvey as such, but I couldn't find other adequate thread to post this. Tongue


Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 06:11
So yeah, if you're a woman who makes eccentric non mainstream music that makes you a Kate Bush clone.
 
That's about as vague as saying any band who makes diverse but accessible music is a Beatles clone, it's every bit as stupid too.


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http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 06:27
David Surkamp Tongue.

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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 06:32
Oh c'mon, he doesn't even have a vagina.... I don't think.
 
Then again has anyone ever checked?


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http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 07:11
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I wouldn't say that Tori Amos' voice has similarity to that of Kate Bush, but her music does.
I don't know the other two, so I can't vote.
 
Indeed Amos is most similar to Bush's works, but Tori's works lack the multi-dimmensional facet of kate's music...
 
Kate's discography is quite varied, while staying focused on her typical herself... they're all fairly different while defintely soundinglike her... abit like pink Floyd being constantly reinventing themselves but ultimately being Floyd.
 
If you listen to a few of Tori's albums in a row, you'll hear the same three songs over and over album after album >>> she's one-dimensional (I still like most of her stuff, but no more than two songs in a row)
 
 
So i can't even vote her being the "best KB clone", coz she's only presenting one facet of KB


Posted By: PlumAplomb
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 07:56
well i have  to voice my opinion here and speak on behalf of tori:) tori amos is my favorite musician, i have everything she's ever done ever - myra ellen emos, y kant tori read, every bootleg et cet.  i've seen her in concert every tour since i was 15 (32 now) she is my babe, as is kate bush, they are my two favorite singers ever.
when tori debuted wiith little earthquakes, she had a huge kate vibe and was getting compared to her ad nauseum, it wen't on to under the pink and boys for pele, even though they also didn't sound that kateish, but by chiorgirl she had started reinventing herself and imo since that album she hasn't sounded too kate-ish, with the exception of the song 'cooling' which is so 'this womans work' it's insane. but she has gone a completely different route with her music, it's still girl and a piano but i think she has a sound her own.  i think Kate is more intense and haunting, i always say tori is more like the spirit and kate goes right to my soul (yes im a dork)

i'm so happy i get to try out some new chicks too, i have joanna and florence.

also, how come nobody has mentioned Ofra Haza????




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la la la and a bottle of plum!



and when it lands
will my eyes
be closed or open?


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 08:09
Originally posted by PlumAplomb PlumAplomb wrote:

also, how come nobody has mentioned Ofra Haza????


Damn, I never noticed the similarities before, quite subtle but there none-the-less, but  then I've only really heard her collaberations with Sisters of Mercy and Sarah Brightman. Cool, I may have to invest in an album (recomendations welcome Wink)


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: PlumAplomb
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 08:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by PlumAplomb PlumAplomb wrote:

also, how come nobody has mentioned Ofra Haza????


Damn, I never noticed the similarities before, quite subtle but there none-the-less, but  then I've only really heard her collaberations with Sisters of Mercy and Sarah Brightman. Cool, I may have to invest in an album (recomendations welcome Wink)



hmmm I would start with Shaday and explore from there:) and yeah 'temple of love' by sisters of mercy is one amazing song.
also, siouxsie sioux?  her and kate might look simliar but musically i don't think they sound anything alike. i've been a siouxsie fan just as long i think, they are both amazing imo:)


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la la la and a bottle of plum!



and when it lands
will my eyes
be closed or open?


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 08:34
Originally posted by PlumAplomb PlumAplomb wrote:

also, siouxsie sioux?  her and kate might look simliar but musically i don't think they sound anything alike. i've been a siouxsie fan just as long i think, they are both amazing imo:)
'twas partially lighthearted and partially serious. No they don't sound alike, (hooray!) and the visuals are purely Revlon and a good camera. It relates to an article/interview I read in the 80s (that I haven't managed to trackdown the source for) that at first appeared to be lazy journalism (you know - two female singer/songwriters in a "man's world" thing), but by the time I'd finished reading it kind of made sense.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 09:55
Oh Jesus Christ. Siouxsie Sioux? A Kate Bush clone?
 
And you guys wonder why other music communities hate prog fans so much.


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http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 10:42


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Acting on your best behaviour

Turn your back on mother nature

Everybody wants to rule the world



Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 11:05
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Oh Jesus Christ. Siouxsie Sioux? A Kate Bush clone?
 
And you guys wonder why other music communities hate prog fans so much.
We try our best Approve


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 12:06
Originally posted by PlumAplomb PlumAplomb wrote:

well i have  to voice my opinion here and speak on behalf of tori:)
Tori can outplay any better known prog keyboardist I know.  Happy's stuff though probably comes as close to clone ville as you can get, but still she deserves to be well regarded on her own.


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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 12:08
Tori a clone?..pffffffttt.

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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]


Posted By: PlumAplomb
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 12:45
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by PlumAplomb PlumAplomb wrote:

well i have  to voice my opinion here and speak on behalf of tori:)
Tori can outplay any better known prog keyboardist I know.  Happy's stuff though probably comes as close to clone ville as you can get, but still she deserves to be well regarded on her own.




:) i have to agree, and in the past year i have listened to a frakload of prog, none of those keyboardists come close to her, but piano is her life, i've seen shows where she'll sit in between a harpsichord , organ, and piano and play all three during the same song


-------------
la la la and a bottle of plum!



and when it lands
will my eyes
be closed or open?


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 16:24
2nd vote for Bat For Lashes.
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 12:33
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

My second Happy arrival has her doing a Yes medley that includes Soon.  I don't think calling her a Bush clone is disparaging at all.  Vocally speaking she does come fairly close and I like it. Big smile


I also love when she covers "Hearts" at the end of the Yes Medley. I wish she would record a full cover of that song!


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 12:39
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

 
Tori can outplay any better known prog keyboardist I know.  

Yeah, not sure I can share this opinion.


Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 13:55
At first I was upset seeing some of my favourite artists described as clones, but this thread has turned into a goldmine.

And for the record: I think that Slartibartfast is quite right. Tori can!


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I like the music of any era, regardless of when it was made.


Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 14:05
I just had a look at that Kate Bush version of Rocket Man. Horrible! Really, really awful! What on earth was she thinking?

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I like the music of any era, regardless of when it was made.


Posted By: Lazaeroth
Date Posted: May 22 2011 at 04:49
I am registering and posting this, simply because I had spent many hours and seperate days searching for this one track that I heard on the radio in passing that I actually thought was Kate Bush. - Coming here and looking around the net, it was no easy task to find what I wanted.

But I have.

Forgetting appearance, this does sound exactly like Kate Bush. This is it..

Robyn - With Every Heartbeat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smKf_cQCdeo


P.Scriptum: And as for Kate Bush's version of Rocket Man.. I found it to be spectacular!


Posted By: PlumAplomb
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 09:59
dammit, i've been meaning to come on here and talk about robyn, you beat me:) trying listening to the acoustic version of 'indestructible' by her, it's astounding the similarities

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la la la and a bottle of plum!



and when it lands
will my eyes
be closed or open?


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: May 23 2011 at 12:09
Yep she has definetely got the Kate Bush 'thing' going.Like it. (worth embedding)
 
 
 


Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 26 2011 at 06:55
I guess that there is a lack of historical perspective here, so go back to the 80's with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH-oiBAubg4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH-oiBAubg4
 
However, the rest of the tunes on Pat Benatar's albums give no suggestion of "clone" , so does this come down to the way the tunes are structured/arranged by KB that encourages other singers into adopting Bushisms in  covers?
 
WRT 'clone': suggest a careful read of a dictionary's definition  is called for, before employing such terms.


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