Hogarth-era Marillion Suggestions
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68715
Printed Date: June 15 2025 at 04:19
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Topic: Hogarth-era Marillion Suggestions
Posted By: The Monodrone
Subject: Hogarth-era Marillion Suggestions
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 11:42
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Lately I'ved been thinking about getting some Hogarth-era Marillion albums...
Any suggestions on what to start out with and what to expect for the albums?
-Thanks  -------------  
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Replies:
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 11:54
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If you're a fan of Alt. Rock at all, they have delivered some splendid albums from that genre like Somewhere Else and Marillion.Com
Don't expect anything in the vein of the Fish-era.
If you're into moody stuff with gentle stuff, Brave is fantastic. If you want a more proggy affair, Marbles should be it, but I personally dislike it.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 27 2010 at 11:56
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I suggest to forget Hogarth's era and buy some Fish era albums.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 07:27
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I would suggest ignoring Ivans post and get Seasons End, Brave and Marbles (the 2 disc version from Rackett Records, Ocean Cloud should not be missed out on!) to start with, 3 exellent albums. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 07:30
| Seasons End and Afraid of Sunlight are both pretty solid, with the former acting as a stylistic bridge between the Fish-era and the H-era. I've never been sold on Brave, as it has always struck me as being laden with filler. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 07:33
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I would suggest getting the new DVD out of Season and then make his choice. Or try Season's End, Brave, Afraid of Sunlight, Marbles and Happiness... It's not Fish's type of music, but they got some very interesting epic songs.
------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 07:46
Can't debate this 
DEFINITELY make sure you get the 2CD version of Marbles (available exclusively from their homepage.) The bonus tracks make the deal. ------------- 
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sleeper wrote:Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 12:07
| In term's of prog, Brave, Season's End, and Marbles would be the best. Some less proggy albums that are still great IMO are This Strange Engine, Afraid of Sunlight, and even Holidays in Eden (the first track "Splintering Heart" is just awesome) |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 12:19
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I honestly can't listen 5 minutes of Hogarths era Marillion.
Boring to an extreme.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 12:45
Than this isn't exactly the thread for you, is it?
 |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 13:04
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I only have Brave and Less Is More from the H-era... and Brave is a masterpiece. I need to get some more Hogarth-era albums as well.
------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 13:06
I can't imagine ANYONE not getting goosebumps at the 1:35 mark of this song.... -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 13:12
^ I just watched that and I did actually get goose bumps. 
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 13:35
I do every time.... Brave is a simply magical album for me. The entire thing is so beautiful and atmospheric, and one of the best Marillion albums I've heard. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 13:40
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I always like to recommend their sampler album Crash Course which you can get from their website here. http://www.marillion.com/listen/index.htm - http://www.marillion.com/listen/index.htm You can either get them to send it to you free or you can download it for free, and it will give you a sampling of their sound. I believe that all of the songs are from the Hogarth era. ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 14:28
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Fantastic link, Scott, definitely a great place for the thread opener to sample this great band's work. Can I also suggest a visit to The Marillion Round Table, where we discuss all things associated with the greatest band who ever lived? As for where you start, I am tempted to say allo of them, but it rather depends what you are looking for. In terms of ;prog masterpieces, well Brave & Marbles are right up there with the absolute greats. Five star platinum albums. If, however, you are looking for a little bit of a less challenging intro to H-era before moving onto these albums, then Season's End and Afraid of Sunlight are essentials. However, with the exception of Holidays in Eden, which is their only average album IMHO, they are all utterly brilliant. See you on the Round Table!! ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: kole
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 14:51
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I am much more of a Fish fan myself, but I really enjoy Brave at times. But then again, at other times, I find it somehow repulsive. It is the same with Marbles. I guess it depends on your mood. Seasons end is maybe the most "steady", so maybe you should try this one. For me it's average at best, or I haven't listened to it at the right time. But I never found it bad. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 15:04
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Seasons End is probably one of the best neo prog albums and something they could truly call their own. I love the textures and atmosphere on this album.In my opinion Marillion never topped this.
Hogarth has a special voice but I found later albums such as Brave just very dull and didn't bother going any further after The Strange Engine.
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Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 15:41
Sorry, I really like Brave, but that just reminded me a lot(the 1:35 voice) this:
BTW: I'm not saying that the song by Simply Red is bad.
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 16:07
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Brave is what I've had my eye on for a while.... -------------
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 16:11
Glad I saw this thread, I'm gonna try to get myself some Afraid of Sunlight  ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 16:15
Wow, that's really cool! I just signed up for it; it's album-length! Thanks a lot Maybe I can find out what I like more from the sampler.-------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 28 2010 at 16:20
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You're welcome. It takes the songs a bit out of context, but it should at least give you a flavor of where they were at musically on certain albums. -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 13:30
The Lord H ALWAYS smiles on new recruits ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 19:41
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For starters, get indeed either Brave, Afraid of sunlight or Marbles, and if you liked that, get any other album. ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 19:49
I think I've decided on getting Brave and Marbles, but I'll wait until I recieve the Crash Course sampler.
Thanks for all the help guys. 
By the way, I have both Script.. and Misplaced Childhood (obviously not the H-era), and I must say, I enjoy them very much. Marillion is the only neo-prog band that I can listen to. :) -------------
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 19:53
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You can also download volumes 1 and 2 of their 2008 release Happiness Is The Road for free from here: http://www.musicglue.com/marillion - http://www.musicglue.com/marillion -------------
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Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 20:23
You should get Clutching at Straws. I'd put it just below Misplaced Childhood, but only slightly. Fugazi is also worth checking out, athough I don't like it quite as much as the other Fish-era albums.
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 21:32
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Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 21:52
Oh man, not another one......
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 29 2010 at 21:56
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Don't bother with Holidays in Eden, marillion.com, Radiation, Somewhere Else or Anoraknophobia until you're a solid fan. Best to start with Seasons End, Brave, or Marbles. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 01:48
| Holidays In Eden has quite nice tunes although its very much the poppier side of Marillion. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: June 30 2010 at 05:57
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^Its definitely an underated album, but I still wouldnt recommend it to a newbie. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 14:36
There, fixed!  ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 01 2010 at 14:52
Vigil and Internal Exile are fantastic, Raingods slightly less so. He has way too much middle of the road, modern Bon Jovi with keyboards rock on his newest. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: kole
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 04:37
| I find Fish's 13th Star very good. I like it even more than most things by H-era Marillion. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 11:42
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Ivan and I definitely have different tastes, but on Hogarth-era Marillion we share the same opinion. I'm not too much of a Marillion fan myself and prefer "Fugazi" over "Script for a Jester's Tear", while "Misplaced Childhood" is definitely a step in the wrong direction. But while Marillion with Fish are at least passable they are the pits with Hogarth. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 14:12
Sorry, Ivan, but really disappointed with this. You know I consider you a friend, but I thought you were above posts of this nature. This clearly wasn't the thread for you. The author was simply looking for suggestions. Just because you don't like a particular era doesn't mean that somebody else will feel the same way. I can't stand Jethro Tull; but, if somebody were to ask for suggestions then it's not my place to chime in one way or another. Let somebody who can appreciate it guide the person. Just my two cents. E ------------- 
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 14:13
 E -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 14:48
Ivan gave his suggestion: Don't buy any of them! What's wrong with that? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 14:56
I dont go into the PT thread and tell people to not buy their albums, thats just trolling. When you someone asks for suggestions of where to start with a band, you know damn well what they mean and its not an opertunity to spout out on how much you dislike them. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 15:41
Sorry, but that's not the same. Ivan likes Marillion, at least of Fish era, but his suggestion is not to buy any albums of the Hogarth era. What better advice can he give And this is not just entering any marillion topic, it was specifically asked which albums could be recommended. Don't you think a Marillion fan who is only familiar with the Fish era has the right to be warned about the Hogarth era? Everybody warns people not to buy "Love Beach" by ELP just the same. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:31
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The author didn't ask whether or not they should explore the Hogarth era of Marillion, did they? No. They asked for what discs with which to begin and what to expect. Clearly there are a lot of fans of the current incarnation of Marillion or they would've folded up the tents a long time ago. Hasn't happened. On the contrary, they seem to be thriving. So let this person explore and find out for him/herself. Additionally, maybe the author already has the Fish era Marillion discs and knows them quite well, but wants to delve further. I'm sure if there was a Magma thread asking for suggestions and I came in, squatted down and took and took a dump all over it that I'd be getting raked over the coals. E -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:41
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<< What better advice can he give>> Oh cool! That means I can go into any thread of any band I don't like with complete immunity and completely hijack it and turn it around to go against the spirit with which it was created? I declare 'bs' on this. I'm not a fan of, say, Mastedon. I've heard them, but I don't like them. So I'm not going to suggest anything because it's tainted and doesn't come from an objective point of view. I might not like them, but this hypothetical neophyte might really enjoy them. For God sakes, let them find out for themselves. E -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:56
The thread was not hi-jacked at all! Perhaps you need to be reminded what the question was: Lately I'ved been thinking about getting some Hogarth-era Marillion albums... Any suggestions on what to start out with and what to expect for the albums? Ivan said "none". I would be glad to be given such an advice if I had planned spending any money on one of these albums. Now you may of course be of a different opinion than Ivan, but he gave the questioner what he asked for. So this is totally o.k. in this thread, even if Hogarth-era Marillion fans are peeved by the answer. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:59
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And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen. E -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 17:25
 umm, sorry... I didn't intend for this thread to get out of hand.
I have to say I agree with E-Dub; the question I asked was 'what albums to get first,' not 'should I purchase a Hogarth-era album.' I've heard a few songs from the 'h-era,' quite enjoyed them and that's why I started this thread to begin with. Sorry about the misinterpretations!  -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 17:33
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I took off my previous post. All I can say is no apologies are necessary. E -------------
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Posted By: QEO
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 18:42
+1 Those would be my recommendations as well...and I would definitely add Season's End to that list. And I am going to commit an act of treason here by saying that I am a lot fonder of the Hogarth era than the Fish era (and I cut my musical teeth on prog over 30 years ago, from Symphonic to RIO and beyond): I find Hogarth's vocal qualities a lot more emotionally compelling that what I got out of Fish. Granted, they have put out some albums with Hogarth that I personally think are kind of puzzling considering the heights they have scaled on Brave or Afraid of Sunlight, but they really found their own unique voice as a band with him, whereas I thought they were kind of derivative during the Fish era. ------------- http://quietearthorchestra.com Free full album downloads at: http://johnludi.com |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 19:45
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^^I agree with the recommendations. In this order, Brave, Afraid Of Sunlight, Marbles (2 disc version) and Seasons End. All brilliant. E -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 02 2010 at 23:59
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E: I also consider you a friend, but I can't disagree more. I came here to talk about Prog bands (mainly), but there are good and bad Prog bands, I believe Marillion lost all the magic and personality without Fish, the best suggestion I can give to any person trying to listen a new band is to avoid Hogarth Marillion, which I find bland and boring. When I was 16 and asked ELP post Works suggestions, I would had blessed an honest person who would had suggested not to buy any later album, I would had saved more or less US$ 20.00 that I needed to buy something better, mainly because I had to get my albums from USA being that in Perú Prog was almost non existent. But nobody warned me, and I not only wasted 20 bucks (I was in school and needed them) but also could had asked a friend or relative for a different album from USA, instead of wasting my and their time in Works II and Love Beach, two albums that I hated and are gathering dust somewhere in my old music boxes.. If I would had started listening Genesis in the 80's, I would had paid somebody who suggested me not to buy any post Hackett albums, I bought ATTW3 and Duke the day they were released and also hated both. The last time I bought an album I disliked was OVO, I wasn't yet in the forum and the name Peter Gabriel was enough for me, but it wasn't really a PG album and I lost my money, since then I have read reviews and suggestions (good and bad) before buying something and saved a lot of money that has been spent in something I enjoy.
We are here to give positive and negative advice, you can take it or leave it, THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM, NOT A MARILLION FAN CLUB, if this wasn't the case, we should only make reviews of albums we love and give 5 stars to everything...Of course the site would be useless, because we would be giving people the wrong idea that each and every album here is a masterpiece.
So I give my suggestions, if you like them or trust my taste, great, if not then ignore them, if somebody wants to read only praises, better try with the Marillion Fan Club. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 00:09
There's a great difference, this is a thread where a person asks for suggestions, I gave mine.
Porcupine's Tree Thread name is:
The official Prog Archives Porcupine Tree Thread!A thread created by Porcupine Tree fans, to talk about Porcupine Tree, I don't like PT, you can read my reviews, but I don't dare to visit that thread, because nobody is asking a suggestion, only gathering to talk about their favourite band.
So it's not the same case Sleeper, giving an opinion is not trolling, is the main reason why we are here.....Or at least that's what I believe.
Eric: Friedre is absolutely right my friend, nobody started a thread to praise Hogarth Marillion, a guy I never saw asked for a suggestion, and I gave the only honest one I can give.
Nobody is crappin' a band you love, you didn't started this thread to say how great Hogarth is, we are giving a suggestion about a band you happen to love and we don't. If we were forbidden to talk about a band somebody loves, we couldn't talk about any band, because even the worst one (If there's such thing as the worst one) has some fans. Iván
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 00:37
The worst that can happen to a thread I started is that no-one replies to it, which sadly happens often enough. But Ivan's post was to the point; from the way the starter of the thread put it it was not clear at all that he had already heard Marillion of the Hogarth era and liked it. Crapping over a post is is definitely not what Ivan did. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 06:53
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^^Never said that Ivan was the only one crapping all over it. The ladies room was well occupied, as well. I think the one thing you guys are missing is music is incredibly subjective. The very fact that we're having this discussion is proof of that. What you're saying is don't even give it a chance. How can you defend that? If he wants to spend his own money, that's his decision. But to persuade him to not even investigate is pure horse sh*t. Plain and simple. Somebody suggested he get the Crash Course disc, which is brilliant. It's a sampler disc, and since you two are overly concerned with his finances, it's FREE!!!! Just step back and let him decide. I would never tell somebody not to explore different bands...whether I liked them or not. Sorry, but that's extremely short sighted. The world stretches far beyond me. I wish others felt the same way. E -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 07:01
Ivan, DO NOT twist my words around. That really steams my ass. I never said that this was a Praise Hogarth thread. I'm merely defending the person's right to at least give it a chance. Pure and simple. I've heard people say, "You know, I don't personally like them, but I have found at that a lot of people like ....." I can look over at my CD cabinet and pull out a 10' high stack of discs of bands that I took a chance on. I think the stamp on this conversation is the very fact that the author personally informed us that the both of you were off the mark. That doesn't mean squat to you, apparently. E -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 07:12
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I have to say that I am with you on this one E. Ivan and Friede are coming off as stereotypical prog snobs in this thread if you ask my opinion. -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 09:04
Maybe so, but who cares? That's such a small little nugget in the grand scheme of things. I clearly got the intentions of the author. And he was willing to try. OK, suppose somebody who was only familiar with the more hit oriented Genesis needed suggestions on where to begin with the Gabriel era. Somebody (not me because I love Gabriel era Genesis) comes in amongst genuine suggestions and goes, "I find the Gabriel era of Genesis to be too derivative and lacking of any quality whatsoever. Don't bother with it and stay with the Collins era." According to what I've read, that would be acceptable? E -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 09:08
I know Ivan pretty well and he definitely has strong opinions, and I can't fault him for that. I just don't consider it healthy to hinder somebody's willingness to explore. To me, that can never be a good thing. E -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 10:01
Sooo..... Brave it is then?  -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 10:04
It's the best disc I own and absolutely love it. It didn't latch on to me right away, but once it did I knew I was in possession of something quite remarkable. My #2, 3, 4 ... discs are always a toss up; but, there's no question as to what my favorite is. Brilliant. E -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 11:40
No Eric, you protest because you are a Hogarth Marillion fan, lets speak plain and simple:
In other words, it pisses you because you are a Marilion Hogarth's fan.
I CARE, that if somebody asks, I reply with my personal and honest opinion, you guessed what he thought, I don't, I saw it as a question of a person who never heard H Marillion and in my opinion he should avoid them.
It happens all the time, It's almost a national sport to attack Dream Theater and ELP and it's OK, their fans take the time to defend them,
This is a DISCUSSION FORUM, not a fan club, if that was your opinion about Genesis, I would express my disagreement, WITH ARGUMENTS, but never try to silence you.
Eric, you know me, my opinion about H Marillion is even harder than what I posted, if somebody asks for it, I will answer, if we want to shut people here, then we will start to censor the reviews and PA will became useless.
Youn know I'm a Genesis fan, but I left the Genesis forum, because we were almost forced to say all Genesis is perfect, and it's not, here we have the freedom to express our opinions and I will do it.
The last thing I want is to have problems with a good friend like you, but I will never compromise my opinion.
Why Prog snob?
I believe Hogarth Marillon is boring, and lame, why should I avoid giving my honest opinion if somebody asks?
This is not wonderland, there are good, average, mediocre and terrible bands, if somebody starts a therad about a band he/she must be ready to read the opinions of people who don't like them as welll as thse who like them.
Prog snob is a cliche that has no relation with his issue, somebody asked for OPINIONS, not for PRAISES.
Iván.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 11:50
Maybe i am, but E-Dub is coming through as a stereotypical fanboy then.. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 12:01
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But still, and I will say this again, my question is "Which h-era Marillion albums to acquire and what to expect of them," but it seems as though some people are seeing the question as "Should I listen to the h-era, and if so, which albums should I get." It seems as though Friede and Ivan assumed that I had not heard h-era, when in reality, that still doesn't change the nature of my initial question.
(BTW, I appreciate all of your opinions and views[it's better than none]) -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 12:08
You hit the nail in the head ptkc.
I normally reply to a lot of threads, but Friede is very careful to what she writes, she replied what she understood, as I did.
Here people ask what album they should buy, which one they should avoid or even if they should avoid a band, and we are here to debate, if somebody doesn't agree with me, he/she has a post to reply and it's OK.
Again you are right, it's much better to receive negative feedback than to be ignored, I started threads about unknown bands and hardly receiced a reply, that's more offensive than receiving other person's honest opinion.
Cheers.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 12:26
I did indeed understand you that way, which is why I gave you my answer. Had I understood the question the way you meant it I would not have replied. You appear to like Hogarth-era opinion, I don't; de gustibus non est disputandum. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 13:17
Oh God, will you dispense with the friggin' labels! What an easy out! I could care less if you, Ivan or anyone else hates this period of Marillion. Hate them with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns for all I care. You go back and read my posts and I think it will clearly state that I was defending a person's right to explore and draw their own conclusions. And you clearly glossed over the similar scenario I created. I would absolutely LOVE to see the shoe on the other foot if the roles were reversed. So, you call me what you want to call me. I never resorted to calling you a snob of any kind, Friede. I don't know you well enough...and you surely don't know me well enough. E -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 13:27
Ivan, if the case of my argument coming solely from the perspective of big H era Marillion fan, then I would be throwing a sh*t fit at every single negative comment on this site. I don't care who likes them and who doesn't. I believe that it's every person's right to explore new music. That, my friend, is plain and simple. So you, Friede can call it whatever you like. If I'm a 'fanboy', then I guess I'm a fanboy in your eyes. I was simply defending a person's freedom of choice. From the arguments that I've seen from your side, you weren't even promoting the opportunity. And the question wasn't if anyone found the band lame and boring. They were asking for suggestions for a good starting point. Talk about plain and simple. And I'm not asking for you to compromise your opinion. That's not giving me any credit. I'm only asking that a person should be allowed to at least try. You check my track record....I've never asked anyone not to give something a try. I'll give my opinion, but I won't tell them to not try something. I don't know how to explain it any better. E -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 14:31
First I never called you fanboy, but If you believe every person has rhe right to explore music I agree, but also believe that any person has the right to suggest what music to avoid and they are free to believe me or not.
Have you followed the thread Eric?
My reply was short and precise:
He asked suggestions about H era, I replied Avoid it...Didn't said it was lame or boring, because that wasn't the question, only when somebody inquired me for my reply, I gave my arguments
I should be allowed to prevent people from what I believe is not a good band, that's what I expect when I ask for a suggestion.
They are free to believe me or not.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 14:37
| I think it's better for you to start with Seasons End, as most of the material was written just after Clutching at Straws while Fish was still around. H performance is confident and strong. If you like what you hear, go with Brave and Marbles (both masterpiece). This Strange Engine and Afraid of Sunlight are also recommended. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 17:11
As to prog-snobbery: I have no idea what that is in the first place. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 17:53
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I think that everyone should feel free to express their feelings about music (provided it's expressed in a reasonable manner). How boring this site would be if there were only positive comments, and I thought Ivan's comment appropriate for the topic based on the initial post. I, too, generally would rather negative appraisals/ comments than a lack of interest, and often solicit opinions good and bad about music. If I'm asking for suggestions, I'm happy to hear a wide range of opinion. I don't like it when such negative people are not open to further discussion, however, and are not willing to back up assertions, or it is clear that those people know very little about the music they are being disparaging about. It's generally best when the negative comments are framed in an intelligent way, or at least the perspective is presented in a thoughtful manner. And Eric, feel free to express your dissatisfaction with any music I mention in the fora (or any in my signature) or any of my Suggestions -- I'd appreciate your negative interest over no interest from you at all. I'd love to hear your opinion of, say, Magma's music (since you used it as an example), provided it's not post and run but are open to discussion. However, maybe others would feel differently. I respect you and would honestly be very pleased to discuss such music with you (we share some likes in common... e. Genesis Cinema Show which I also think excellent). There have been many negative threads about Magma, like Marillion it may be a love or hate band to quite an extent, but for a well-rounded Progger, I think both bands are essential listening. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have a friend who likes Marillion so I have heard some albums. Personally, I would not recommend Season's End as it's far too unsatisfyingly poppy, AOR, and arena rockish for my tastes. It's at least as bad as Gentle Giant's final three in that respect, I feel (and I really dislike GG's final three). I'm actually surprised that an album with tracks such as Hooks in You and The Univited Guest has such high ratings at a Prog site (okay, maybe not down there with Magma's "Ooh, Ooh Baby", but pretty close). I'm not against pop music, hardly. In fact, I love a lot of pop meets progressive music and pop music, and have suggested music here that I love that has been rated very lowly by others due to the pop quotient. I do think Brave and Marbles are good for what they are and would recommend them. Even stuff like "Hooks in You" and "The Uninvited Guest" has its humorous charms and I enjoy, as I see them, progressive rock-incongruous songs be they from my favourite bands/artists or not since I like to think I have a sense of humour/ enjoy the absurd even when it comes to my favourite acts. And they are listenable to me. TO be honest, I find Hooks in You very catchy and it's a bit of a guilty pleasure along with a track such as Magma's "Ooh, Ooh Baby (Cry From the Dark). ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 18:13
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^ But then, Clutching at Straws is also poppy, AOR and arena rockish. Seasons End picks up right where its predecessor left off. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 03 2010 at 18:21
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^ Indeed. I'm afraid that I've been remiss in reading all of the comments in this thread, but if the topic-starter likes CLuctching at Straws, then that is a good suggestion (I've never heard the whole album and didn't like what I did hear of it). Marillion was never adverse to AOR/ pop music.
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 06:48
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From the "H" era I'll reinforce what was said previously. Start with Brave ( for the adventure ) , then Marbles ( For the quaility and variety) and probably continue next with Afraid Of Sunlight. Many other fine ones after that, with probably Dot-Com as the weakest. If you were brand-new to Marillion and knew nothing about either the "Fish" or "H" periods, I would send you straight to the the later stretch( being the last 21 years ! ) . I was never a huge fan of Fish-Marillion back in the day-I found the whole deal somewhat clumsy and immature - but over time I've grown to like it more, and find it has a quaintness that is quite unique.
I find it upsetting when people use words like "hate" to describe art ( that's what this is, after all ), because so much of it is subjective, and really depends upon where you stand and where you've come from. My wife is a fan of the Carpenters ( certainly ultimate anti-prog music if there was one...unless you've heard a muzak version of Watcher Of The Skies whilst riding an elevator....the horror ! ) but I would not say I 'hate" them. They are just not my preference. Then again, I love Dylan, Waits, and Neil Young, and so does she as well.... not prog, but darn real artists.
Enjoy your vitamin "H" experience.
Steve.
------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 11:20
Why shouldn't we hate something?
Humans like and dislike and for that reason we have extreme feelings as love and hate, I believe the artist would prefer to create a strong reaction in the audience rather than indifference. I hate three men Collins Genesis, I hate H Marillion, I hate Gentle Giant...Of course I hate the music,, not the artist, and it's ok, if you give a 1 star rating you hate that album, the difference is that we say it loud and clear while you use the anodyne "They are just not my preference" to criticize us. Despite your say in your post that you don't hate music, when you review you also have very strong negative feelings that you hide here saying "just my preference", in your Love Beach review you say:
Abomination means "anything you abhor" or in other words something you detest (Extreme hate) or something for what you feel repugnance....In other words, you hate but still criticize us for being honest Our hate is pale compared with the repugnance you feel for Love Beach (Read the dictionary definition). And it's OK, I believe the artist would prefer to create a strong reaction in the audience rather than indifference. Now, with your example of how much you love (BTW: If you love, you also hate, both are two sides of the same coin) Dylan, Waits, etc you try to imply that we don't like something because it isn't Prog (What would reinforce the accusations of Prog snobs that Rushfan made), nothing is more wrong, there's good Prog as bad Prog exactly the same as good and bad POP, good and bad Jazz, etc. So before analysing what we say, check what you say. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:17
Ivan, I guess being a lawyer you find it fun to play with words in this way. Perhaps GOOD and EVIL are cut and dried for you ? However LOVE and HATE are not poles, they are limits and as such not two sides of the same coin, there are an infinite amount of quanta in between . Should I troll through your reviews to see where you contradict or express yourself in an seemingly inconsistent manner ? ( Like you just went through mine ? ) I excercise my right to artistic license and If you want me to be plain and use the word hate, then I'll say that I hate hatred ! It's a destructive term. To hate something is a human emotional failure. So I would rather aspire to love, and try not to fail and hate, but then usually suceed with something more on the positive side of the median, rather than straying the other way. I'm not a fan of James Blunt or Celine Dion, but I won't say that I HATE their music....it's just not my thing.
I don't particularly like Love Beach, and I may have used the word abomination ( a bit of drama if you will....I am allowed ) , but I'm still glad to have heard it, and in the context of some other music out there it's still a better listen than some, even at 1 star per my rating.
I never implied that you or anyone doesn't like something because it isn't prog, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who are signed up to ProgArchives that are fans of Dylan, Waits and all types of what this site defines as non-progressive music.
Back to your dictionary to pick my rebuttal apart then I guess.
Steve
------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 12:49
First,
Second,
And.....Is abomination a constructive term? I don't dare to criticize your choice of words...Don't dare to criticize mine....I haven't accused you of being negative for using that term, I just pointed your inconsistence when you accuse me of negative for hating music when you abhor other music. And yes I know hate is a destructive word, and it's the word that fits best what I feel when I listen determined music, so again take the license you want, my posts and reviews are there to be read and dissected if you want, as has been done before.
You gave 1 star and called Love Beach an abomination (I did the same)...Why do you need to hide what you feel for the album, when it's obvious you consider it terrible? I don't, I say what I believe without hiding anything, of course I never use the terms trash or crap to describe something others love, but if I find a an album or the production of a band and/or lame and for that reason I hate it,. I don't hide it.
It seemed like that.
No, not necesary in this case.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:33
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I'll add another thought to this thread. I find it very revealing that H-ear Marillion are one of the few bands (Collins era Genesis & Porcupine Tree being among other rare examples) who can generate such excitable and forceful comments. I think that speaks volumes, and think it would be worse if they were completely ignored. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 13:35
Iván, you're completely missing Eric's point! This is the same exact thing that happened in the last Dream Theater topic...  Anybody can drop in here and say "don't listen to Hogarth-era Marillion". I can think of at least 10 people who have that opinion on this site. But that doesn't help the original poster. The original post said "Any suggestions on what to start out with and what to expect for the albums? ". Your reply didn't answer that question at all. If you don't like Hogarth-era Marillion (which is perfectly fine), you could've said something helpful like "A lot of people like Brave, but I personally find it very boring". That comment takes a negative standpoint, but still provides insightful information. Telling him to avoid all of Marillion's music since 1987 doesn't answer his question. It's a simple concept that you're failing to understand. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:13
J Man, when the original poster clarified his position, I would had stopped, but people keep criticizing others for having a position.
As a fact, the original poster asked for information about:
"what to expect for the albums? " (Sic)
My complete reply would had been lame, boring and lack of interest (and would be the exact reply to his question from my perspective), but my original suggestion was simply avoid it, he didn't said I like H Marillion, he just asked for a suggestion,as a person who doesn't know about the band, but a one sentence post caused all this replies, even when Eric and I have already cleared our positions by private e-mails, others feel uin the right not only to criticize our public opinions, but also IF we love, like, dislike or hate.
Threads about DT, ELP, Genesis are started and people say that this bands are almost crap (some say they are crap), but when somebody gives a SUGGESTION, the fans of the band start.
And yes it helps, if I would had written "Hey I want a suggestion about post Hackett Genesis", I would had thanked somebody who told me avoid it.
Yes, saying "A lot of people like Brave, but I personally find it very boring".can be very nice, but I'don't believe in polittically correct, neither I have to say anything about what other members like, MY OPINION is that he should avoid the albums.
That's my whole point.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:19
Lest we forget: ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 14:19
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Brave and Afraid Of Sunlight are my faves, Strange Engine, and, Radiation are OK. I've kept up with them after that but interest has waned as they don't seem to be doing much fresh.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 16:58
Please understand that I simply do not agree with your approach then, at least with respect to using a word like "hate" , which will be my blunt answer. Getting back to the thread question originally posed, you can elect to recommend that the reader forget about exploring Hogarth era Marillion, but jumping into a thread asking for suggestions, which in essense implies where to start, and adding a comment like you did will only provoke responses from those who take exception to your statement. Proper etiquette would be to make no comment and move on to another topic that you find more interesting. Other people have said this as well. so I am just re-stating their words. I apologize if I have offended you.
Let's take this another direction then. As a non-fan of the current "H" fronted Marillion, do you think your tastes/opinion would ever change over time ? Or, is the door closed ?
Steve ------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 05 2010 at 20:33
Of course it's ok if you don't agree with me and Friede who just defended my position, I strongly disagree with your option, because I believe it's better to tell somebody who doesn't know a band, "Hey, avoid X because I believe it's bad, or boring or lame or whatever". If that persons reads my reviews and agrees with my taste, I would probably have saved him some bucks, time and disenchantment with Prog. I as a fact would thank somebody who told me avoid Y band, if I don't know that person, I would research a bit more, but if I have read this people reviews and trust them (Like Gatot or Sean for example) I would ran away from the album as a pest.
If only the fans would write to say a band is great and the people who find the band terrible would shut their moth because of etiquette I WOULDN'T TRUST A WORD OF PROGARCHIVES, BECAUSE EVERYTHING WOULD BE PERFECT
We need the balance between positive and negative points of view. And no you haven't offended me, your words express your position, what pissed me is a reply like Rushfan's who called us Prog Snobs, a term used to describe all the people who don't agree with our taste.
I quite like one song called "Uninvited Guest", but the point is that I choose my Prog and my Pop bands, If I want to listen good POP, I buy a Fleetwood Mac, Cranberries or a Duran Duran Duran album,but I buy Yes, Genesis or Marillion to listen Progressive Rock.
Normally I don't like a band that turns from Prog to Pop, because trhey become a hybrid....That's my opinion of "H" Marillion, Not Prog, not Pop, not AOR...Not interesting.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 17:04
I quite like one song called "Uninvited Guest", but the point is that I choose my Prog and my Pop bands, If I want to listen good POP, I buy a Fleetwood Mac, Cranberries or a Duran Duran Duran album,but I buy Yes, Genesis or Marillion to listen Progressive Rock.
Normally I don't like a band that turns from Prog to Pop, because trhey become a hybrid....That's my opinion of "H" Marillion, Not Prog, not Pop, not AOR...Not interesting.
Iván [/QUOTE]
Ivan, if you have not heard anything from Marbles, you may want to give a listen to "The Invisible Man" and "Ocean Cloud". These two tracks are very far from pop, and quite progressive. Try to find a free download or preview somewhere. you may be a bit suprised.
I started into prog back in 1973, with ELP's Trilogy ( a great Album ) , and have kept an ear open ever since. Of the latter day prog bands I really enjoy The Flower Kings, and Spock's Beard - their latest album "X" in very good, and is easily the best they've done since Neal Morse left.
Are you much of a King Crimson fan ?
Steve. ------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 17:08
Received and listened to the Marillion sampler today, and I liked it? 
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 17:23
 ...that's kind of strange; we must have ordered on the same day.
Anyway, it's very interesting. As of right now, I'm listening to 'Neverland' from Marbles. The songs that have really stuck out for me are 'Hard as Love,' 'Asylum Satellite #1,' ... well basically every track so far.
They are indeed much different from the Fish-days, but also quite good, though I must certainly listen to more. This may sound strange, but they sound a bit like a less complicated, more melodic Radiohead. Hogarth is a great and powerful singer. Now back to the listening... -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 20:48
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Hi,
I have a whole bunch of Marillion albums and I find I enjoy the Fish stuff as much as the other.
I really think that sometimes we're just being snobbish and allowing our preferences to dictate our ideas, and that is really sad.
There is a lot of music out there, and FISH has not exactly been an idiot singer and performer dong nothing but blues standards out there. He has a very large, and quite respectable output of material, but no one is going to give him that credit.
Sad.
And Hogarth is good in his own way and there are a lot of things that sound right, and ok with him.
So sad ... that we can't listen for the love of listening to it all without ever having to worry about anyone's ideas. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 06 2010 at 23:21
I heard each and every Marillion album, and believe me, in the 90's (when I didn't knew about Anglagard or Par Lindh) tried as hard as I could to like their music, but I can't stand the voice of Hogarth neither the change in style.
I started in 1976 with early Yes, Genesis, ELP, Pink Floyd and since the late 90's I listened all the styles and genres possible, have nealry 4,000 recordings (Cd's and Lp's) and found great modern bands.
And no, I'm not a King Crimson fan, except ITCOTCK and part of Red, I don't like KC.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 08:47
^ Is that part of Red 'Starless' ?  -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:29
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Starless and One More Red Nightmare
Iván -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 17:02
After seeing them live for the first time last year in Montreal, I have an even greater appreciation for Hogarth as a frontman. A captivating performer who had everyone's attention the entire weekend. Greatest live concert experience of my life. E -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 18:48
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I think my next purchase will be Brave. :) -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 19:12
Be really Brave and get the DVD. Marbles is another one from the Hogarth era I like at least until I find the marbles I lost. Nice live DVD for that tour is out there. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 19:57
Excellent move! If you can locate a copy of Brave Live 2002, snag it. One of the best DVD's I have. E -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 20:01
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^ I'll try to locate one.
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a Brave film made? -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 20:15
Yes...unfortunately. Ugh!!!! E -------------
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Posted By: The Monodrone
Date Posted: July 07 2010 at 23:00
That bad, eh? -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 08 2010 at 04:50
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I can appreciate what they were trying to do, but it was a bit too edgy and raw for my tastes. They interviewed the actress who played the troubled youth in a WebUK issue a year or so ago and that was a pretty interesting read. E -------------
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