The genius of Krzysztof Penderecki
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Topic: The genius of Krzysztof Penderecki
Posted By: Rocktopus
Subject: The genius of Krzysztof Penderecki
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 04:15
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I am into him bigtime these days. Its the horror and beauty of his early, cutting edge modernist works that speaks to
me the most and loudest. I made this list of my favorite compositions so far, over at RYM. But I made it to get reccomendations, and maybe some kind of interesting discussion going. I'm hoping it could work as some sort of guide as well. Sometimes these things works better on PA's board. I've only been a real fan of this genius a couple of years, so its neither an expert-or a complete list. Links to all compostitons, but three.
------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Replies:
Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 05:53
| Certainly a chap I've wanted to delve into for a while, but have not. Only thing I've got is that LP he did with Don Cherry (& The New Eternal Rhythm Orchestra), which wouldn't be representative of his work as such. Will be spending a bit of time on youtube tonight, methinks. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 07:03
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Please do (stend a bit of time on youtube, I mean). I haven't been so exited about getting into a new artist for years. That Don Cherry/Penderecki LP, Actions is it? Unfortunately I think its largely an unfocused, unlistenable mess, even by Don's standard (which I consider to have one of the most uneven discographies in jazz). ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Noak
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 08:54
| I've only heard the stuff that is on Matrix 5, but it's really brilliant stuff. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 09:16
That's one hell of a collection (Next logical purchase should be Matrix 17) I guess you voted for Threnody? Hard not to. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Noak wrote:Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 20:58
That's the one, I've not heard it in some time. Do you have any suggestions on say three discs to start with? Or is that covered in the rym list you spoke of? I'd be interested in some of the vocal stuff. I've been listening to a considerable amount of Opera recently (from my two favourite composers); if they can even be call opera's anymore... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 21:02
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You introduced him to me a year or so ago. I've heard some of these, but will go through all of the youtube links.
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 21:06
| I've only listened to Threnody, which is amazing. I need to hear some more stuff from this composer. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 21:22
| Partita, haven't listened to it in a while, nice hearing it again. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 18 2010 at 05:00
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^Great choice! His early 70's far out-piece. One critique of Penderecki I
come across quite often is that his music is emotionally one
dimensional. No matter if the title is Christmas, Fonogrammi or about Hiroshima
what comes across feels either depressingly tragic or intensely
demonic. There's some truth to that, almost everything I've heard after
1975 sounds extremely melancholic and after 1995 heavily depressed (and a
tad boring). But am I crazy to find a sense of dark, sick and twisted sense of humor in a lot of his early work such as your choice Partita, Cappricio for Violin and Orchestra, (his completely bonkers) Cello Concerto or Polymorphia...? Here's a comment on the latter piece in the comment section on youtube which makes a lot of sense to me: This is the most hilarious song i've ever listened to. i seriously crack up as soon as i hear the C Major chord at the end! no matter how many times i listen to it! i crack up! (Polymorphia is one of the compostitions used several places in The Shining) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 18 2010 at 05:51
Vocal: I only know, and can only reccomend sacred work and not opera: Dies Irae (the version I link to is my favorite version. Polymorphia and De Natura Sonoris on the B-side. A perfect LP, but hard to find. Naxos version is also very good, but its paired with 50 minutes of dull, recent stuff. Utrenja which Naxos has a brilliant release/recording. Should be easy to find. The truly nightmarish choir parts and sounds when poor Wendy runs around the halls of Overlook Hotel and sees ghosts in Kubrick's The Shining, is taken from here. Ain't it something? This version is probably the ultimate. But I don't have it. The seven minute long Stabat Mater is also sublime. Make sure its the one from 1962, and not just a part of the 75 minute long St. Luke Passion from 1965 (Which is my least favorite among my favorites, but the most popular/known) Stay away from everything vocally composed after 1975. As for the rest: The EMI CD's Matrix 5 and Matrix 17 covers his early period nicely, but far from complete (or perfect) and ecxept Canticum Canticorum Salomonis which is more than ok, but not among my real favorite choral works, all orchestral. It doesn't really matter if you buy collections, because all the compositions are presented in full. And the "originals" are just collections of compositions anyway. The best reccomendation is still to listen to clips and hunt down any release that has most of what you enjoy. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: August 18 2010 at 09:13
I agree, parts of Partita seem silly and sarcastic. The chamber group sounds like a jazz or avant-rock ensemble gone nuts. Almost like a satire on the avant jazz of the time. |
Posted By: Apsalar
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 04:52
| Thanks for the all the recommendations. I'll follow up on them in time; its best to digest things slowly with these type of guys. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 19 2010 at 11:50
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"Threnody" so far, which I knew before and is powerful. I'm sure I've heard various ones of his over the years. "De Natura Sonoris II" is very good too. I noticed something interesting, I accidentally opened up two youtube links at different times - I think it was De Naturo Sonaris and Dies Irae so that both were playing at different points, and they worked together so well that I didn't realise two separate ones were playing.
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 20 2010 at 08:24
Indeed. Just one more vocalreccomendation. The slightly transitional piece; Magnificat composed in 1974. Up there with Dies Irae, imo. (its all there in five parts, or so) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 21 2010 at 17:41
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file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml - - ławski -> if you are into
contemporary music Bacewicz Twardowski Moniuszko -> his opera Halka is a classic in Poland Szymanowski, Za file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml - file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml - |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 25 2010 at 06:13
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^Well, Penderecki being from Poland is beside the
point. This isn't a polish composer competition-thread. And not liking
something because of too much hype is as silly as falling for a hype.
Give him a listen istead of sticking to your absurd desicion that Chopin
"beats" him. (And if there's anyone that gets too much undeserved hype, its Krzysztof Kiesvlowski) ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 26 2010 at 07:44
Kieślowski.
He was not a musician, but a movie-maker, don't really see why you cite him. And he made some excellent movies, not the ones with the french actress, but the ones he did in Poland, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C3%B3tki_dzie%C5%84_pracy - Short Working Day (Krótki dzień pracy 1981) or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decalogue - The Decalogue (Dekalog 1988). Of course, you talk about him, without having seen these movies...
And yes, Krzysztof Penderecki is pure sh*t (too much hype because there are too much snobs who claim that they listen to music full of emotion while it's only noise or distorted sounds : other composers like Jacques Ibert play beautiful music but stay in the shadow), with comparison to Fryderyk Chopin, just like Pierre Boulez is pure rubbish with comparison to Claude Debussy.
Open your ears : There is too much garbage in contemporary music. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Noak
Date Posted: August 26 2010 at 09:55
Chopin is at times pretty good, nothing bad against him, but for longer periods time he is quite boring, he doesn't satisfy my basic need for chaos and insanity in music. Penderecki does, better than most too. I guess you don't have this need, but I do, a lot of people do.
|
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 26 2010 at 10:36
Chopin to feel asleep, Penderecki to wake up  ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 02:13
I have no intention of defending contemporary music in general. 90% of what I find leaves me cold. I'm talking about Penderecki because to me its obvious that he sticks out. Sorry for getting all emotional when I hear Threnody or Dies Irae. I'm didn't know I was just fooling myself. But I would never claim that's how I feel when listening to Polymorphia or Partita. Is this "emotion" thing what music must be about all the time? Not to my ears. the two latter compositions are complex soundworlds to be enjoyed for its richness, ideas and genuine otherness alone. More like Zappa or Bartok, than the creators of beautiful music. I actually find it offensive that you question my sincerity. Music is my obsession, I listen to it while working all day every day. I've opened my ears to Penderecki and whatever you hear in it, its not garbage. Understand that if people look for, want and find different things in music than yourself, it doesn't have to be "fake". If not, take your issues and aggression elsewhere. Btw: Did you know that for the last 35 years Penderecki has composed in a traditional, late romantic style? Some of it is really beautiful and moving, and some of it is depressingly boring. Try Concerto for Cello and Orchestra. I would have guessed Mahler if I didn't know better. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 02:27
Why is is that people feel comfortable calling avant-garde fans snobs and fakes, but if I were to call people dumb for still wanting to listen to songs with a chorus everyone would jump on me? I like noise. Chopin's skill at the piano has nothing to do with that. |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 03:04
I'm sure you have your own thoughts about that (feel free to share). People prefers to think of others as the idiot or a fake, before admitting their own insufficiencies. I've done that myself. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 06:21
I wouldn't spend 20 euros or more for an album of noise.
Or 100 + euros for a concert of noise. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 06:35
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Listening to "the dream of Jacob" : makes me want to go out and kill the first person I meet...
Well, I think I don't need this kind of music in my life, or if used in a horror movie I wouldn't mind I guess, but not the music alone.
However, I remember I bought recently a CD by Elend, that sounds a bit like Penderecki, but I listened to it only once, and I am not sure I will return often to it. Same with the OST of Omen.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Rocktopus
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 07:13
Ah, but that explains it. You're the one with the problem. Not, Penderecki (or Henry) or me. ------------- Over land and under ashes In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 07:18
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^
not sure I would suggest this music as a therapy to treat pateints with bipolar disorder... ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 27 2010 at 16:43
What the hell does bipolar disorder have to do with anything? |