Joanna Newsom for prog folk - again!!
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74211
Printed Date: April 28 2024 at 13:57
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Topic: Joanna Newsom for prog folk - again!!
Posted By: rogerthat
Subject: Joanna Newsom for prog folk - again!!
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 09:52
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I know she has been suggested several times unsuccessfully but here goes again. I mean, come on, there aren't too many more obvious suggestions that have been so consistently rebuffed, frankly. For crying out loud, her music has more in common with Red Queen to Gryphon Three than Liege and Lief. Could somebody from the prog folk team be kind enough to answer why a track like this has absolutely nothing to do with prog-folk so as to not merit consideration for inclusion? If this has any persuasive value, here are the album credits for Have One on Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_One_on_Me" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_One_on_Me I understand her childlike style of singing is not everyone's cup of tea - and as much as I appreciate her ambitious songwriting, it's not mine either - but last time I checked, that didn't stop people adding Kate Bush. And no, I am not going into "If X, then Y", I am saying least of all on a prog forum, we can't be the high priests of aesthetics and 'taste'. I am saying all this only because one of the collabs expressed strong disgust after listening to Milk Eyed Mender; I hope that was not a reason not to consider her work seriously. |
Replies:
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 10:05
If you want this suggestion to stand a chance then submit it for Crossover  Just kidding  |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 10:06
I read the thread created by Textbook a few months back.  Pretty mystifying though, all this resistance. Maybe because she's not British.
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:10
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have any of them even listened to Ys? honestly. Bjork? hell yeah she's weird. Newsom? hell NO!she plays a f**kin harp!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:12
That is more or less what I had suggested after the Bjork inclusion (not that I necessarily question that one). Somewhere, weirdness seems to dictate 'controversial' additions. I don't even know what's so controversial about suggesting Joanna Newsom, except she's not already called prog. But if new prog already sounded enough like existing prog music, what's progressive about that anyway?
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keiser willhelm wrote:Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:24
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Roy Harper opened for her in Paris some months ago, and said that Joanna and himself were two pioneers of folk music.
Ys is indeed an adventurous piece of music, and if only for that album I would include her in prog-folk. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:26
They'll take her in Xover. They've got Bjork after all. 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:28
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Get her into PROG, I don't care which sub.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 11:32
I would hardly call the Xover category PROG these days.  *stands in plain view of gunfire* |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 14:01
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^ That's your opinion and that's what it is, only opinion. EDIT: It's quite tiring to hear this from you over and over again. You sound like Walter now. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 14:17
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It's simple... she lacks the 'rock' part of 'progressive rock', as does Björk, unfortunately. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 14:59
Marty, your animated picture is disturbing. I hope you are aware of this. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 15:05
 except re Walter, since 1989 he seems to be getting more mellow ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 15:07
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 21:58
Well, JT is among the few prog folk bands in whose music I emphatically hear the rock part of it. And that is probably because they were a lot of things and not just folk. Besides, Bjork is on PA.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 22:44
EVERYTHING POST 89 SUCKS AND THE PEOPLE WHO LIKE MUSIC FROM THERE ARE DIPsh*tS I may sound like a broken record, but I was making an honest suggestion - recommending her for Xover would get her in. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 22:50
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^ No it would not ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 22:53
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teehee, defense mode on the interwebz is amusing. Yeah, so I've been reduced to trolling, I'll be the first to admit that. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 22:58
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Your cognitive dissonance will never go away if you start to care about what artists PA adds. You can't stop Bjork. You can't stop Tori Amos. Lady Gaga and Ani DiFranco will eventually be here under Crossover. sadfrog.jpg ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 23:00
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You're right. And since I no longer have any emotion vested in the artists added to this site I think I'll just stand back and watch from a distance. It's a shame I defiled this thread though, I do like Joanna Newsom from what I've heard. I can not judge whether it is actually prog or not based on the guidelines of the site. [/trolling this thread] |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 23:30
| Kate Bush is already in PA. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2010 at 23:51
I gave up on that pursuit long back. After 1970s, most prog that can actually be judged to be prog without getting into whether it's experimental or weird or whatever is from the Avant/RIO/Zeuhl section. Some early neo prog albums like Script, Lush Attic, some rare modern geniuses like Kevin Gilbert. I find it hard to take anybody who says you can hear a prog metal album and judge it to be prog on a straight line from the 1970s seriously, I mean, you've got to be kidding me. Music that could be judged progressive in the contemporary scene is necessarily going to be very different from what was prog in the 1970s; if anything, that's a good sign and indicates a measure of originality. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 00:07
And that is somehow more objectionable than that you couldn't stop Nightwish? At least, Tori Amos has SOMETHING to do with prog. Nightwish has nothing to do with it all, not in spirit,not in form, just some dubious, superficial similarity to power-prog metal a la Symphony X. But I guess ear-splitting pseudo-opera is more proggy than Newsom's childlike wailing, p'haps? |
Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 11:06
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I wouldn't mind seeing her in. I realize the banner says "ultimate prog rock resource", but I'd be pretty lenient on the "rock quotient" required for a category called Prog Folk if that's all that's keeping her out. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 11:31
Tori Amos has a handful of kinda sorta progressive rock structured songs. She almost never veered from pop/rock, and only made the piano rock more weird through instrumentation and composition. She spiced things up, to summarize. I don't care about rehashing old arguments, but I never have seen any good argument for her being here at all, let alone in one of the "legitimate" genres. All I've heard is "wellI guess you haven't really listened to much Tori Amos, then." Wrong. Very wrong. And I don't care about Nightwish, so...ok. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 19:42
See, this is the problem, I more or less summarized it on the previous page, there is, largely, no such thing as progressive rock after the 70s. Most of what there is is in Avant/RIO and a handful of neo prog bands. Extended sections don't make it prog, that was just one of the hallmarks of prog in the 70s and a more or less incidental one, imo. If you want to say extended sections equate prog rock structure, then Rainbow, Black Sabbath or Metallica should be in Progressive Metal and not Prog Related. If we only go by the presence of some hallmarks/elements of prog, they are definitely present in Tori Amos's music. I would not call it prog rock but then, I would not call a lot of stuff after the 70s that's on this site prog rock and I truthfully don't understand how to decide if a band from after the 70s is prog rock as per this website's requirements. It's all very well if you don't care about Nightwish, but they are on this website, and in prog metal and not prog related, and even if they are in a different sub-genre, they define the 'standards' of what is and what is not prog as per this website in some way; after all, it is all supposed to collectively represent prog rock. If artists like Tori Amos, Bjork or Newsom ought to be judged by the standards of what was progressive rock in the 70s, how about judging progressive metal by those same standards? Most prog metal additions are made by judging them to be progressive against metal standards, and not whether they are progressive rock. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 21:34
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She has some songs which could be considered prog-folk, but the majority of her works doesn't really fit the bill. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 19 2010 at 21:59
I'm not talking about how prog metal is judged, and once again, I really don't care about discussing that aspect ofhe site, and seeing how it makes no consequence on my argument to ignore it, I will. I think we would solve a lot of our problems by keeping in mind a lot of the tenets of progressive rock when evaluating new artists to add. Look, it seems to me that prog was pretty well defined in the beginning. Long-ish songs sometimes, complex compositions, lots of virtuosity going around. Pushing all sorts of boundaries. That was fine then, but music has broadened and expanded incredibly since the late 60s, into electronic music, metal, post-rock, ambient, avant-garde, and frankly I find it hard to figure out how we can stake claim to Tori Amos or Bjork. Bjork's most ambitious career turn was into electronic music, and not the insular Berlin and wherever Kraftwerk are from schools. She simply doesn't fit here unless we uselessly expand the definitions of prog to make her fit. In the case of Tori Amos, 95% of what she writes is pop songs. Pretty simply pop songs. Clever instrumentation, sure, but we're in a sorry state if adding a synthesizer and a banjo in the same song makes someone Crossover. Which, by the way, makes no sense as a genre, and causes more trouble than it's worth. This site is implicitly expanding the definitions of progressive music to include pop artists that progress...as pop artists. Maybe that's worth including, but there's no logical reason to avoid adding "Goa Trance" as a genre here. After all, it did progress the trance scene. (We obviously aren't playing favorites with rock music anymore [re:Bjork]) ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 20 2010 at 11:17
Of course it does. It bears on MY arguments. Prog metal is judged by the standards of metal. In the like fashion, new prog - that is, other than prog metal - ought to be judged by the standards of contemporary music. Judging it by the tenets of prog that were established in the 70s makes no sense because the music has changed.
I have never denied that. The problem starts with trying to make believe that prog as defined in the 70s exists, or rather, new additions to the website generally adhere to those standards. I am afraid they don't.
They may be 'pretty simple pop songs' if by pop, you mean 70s Stevie Wonder or something like that. It is demonstrably more involved than typical 90s pop/rock music. Oh, leave alone pop, Little Earthquakes (or Under The Pink for that matter) is more involved than Delicate Flame for Desire. By the standards of 90s and onwards pop/rock music, Tori Amos is progressive. She doesn't have to 'progress' music in that Kraftwerk/Can sense because progress in that sense hasn't happened in a long time, at least not in rock/pop. It is not and never has been my stand that Dream Theater progressed rock music to any place it hadn't already got to so there's no reason why so stiff a benchmark should be applied to evaluate Tori Amos. The main difference between these two sets of artists, neither prog in the 70s sense, one which is easily accepted as prog and one who is hotly contested, is the former got called prog by the media. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 20 2010 at 20:18
| I'm still pissed off about Glenn Branca not getting in. I mean how the hell does Bjork get in but Glenn Branca doesn't. I mean I support Bjork being here but come on, GLENN BRANCA. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 21 2010 at 04:50
| ^ Branca was approved, it will just take a bit more time until the addition is done. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: December 22 2010 at 13:51
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Oh was he? I didn't know.
Wowee, I did that.
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 08:19
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I just got YS and this is clearly a record with prog written all over it. I have always said, the purpose of this archive is to direct people of similar taste to other great music they could enjoy and might not otherwise find. This definitely qualifies.
Yes she's a variant of singer-songwriter. So is Hammill. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 08:34
But Hammill is part of a prog rock band. Not saying that's a necessary qualification but that's the kind of thinking that goes into these additions. Joanna has zero prog credentials, so to speak, it's the judgment of her music that makes or breaks her inclusion. Also, I got to know of Joanna from outside prog circles so I am not sure the "might not otherwise find" part applies except if one is looking only for prog recommendations all the time and misses other interesting stuff going on because he is out of the loop.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 09:07
 I DON'T FIND THIS FUNNY
 !!!
Well Newsom is weird, not her harp-playing, but she sings like she's a Chinese trad song
Couldn't have said it better myself
no-stopping Chris & the boys in their stride, right????
 Chris, you'll notice that I'm hardly the only thinking you've gone
 bonkers  with your dismal choices-----------------------------
Seriously, we (prog folk team) don't mind Newsom on the PA site but only in non-prog categories like prog-related or in Xover (notice I don't add prog to this last category
), but I didn't wait everyone to re-evaluate her admission after the third full album(s release .... it certainly isn't more "proggy" than YS (15-mins songs don't necessarily make music prog) , and therefore didn't bring anything new to the debate, so the jury is still out on her.....I do support her being in prog-related, though
 Just not in a full-blown prog category (not just yet... let's wait & see)
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 09:15
Roger,
Outside being a Kate Bush clone, could you be a little more specific and argument as to why you'd see just another singer-songwriter and her piano being anything remotely "prog"... just look up a DVD of her concert, you'll be bored by the fourth song, because she's fairly one-dimensional artiste (something that we couldn't possibly say about Newsom, though) and her stage presence (outside her atrocious tastes in clothes) is about lesser than a carrot..... ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 09:22
| There may be a case for Newsom based on Ys, but the most recent album sounds more like Kate Bush on The Kick Inside than Kate herself. Would Kate have been admitted to PA based on her debut alone, probably not. Is Ys more representative of JN than her latest CD, I don't know. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 10:02
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The first disc of Have One On Me is essentially Ys material with percussion.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 11:33
Well she ain't coming to Crossover and if the PFolk boss says no to their genre.....then good luck with PRelated. For those consistent stalwarts harping on about the same old, same old points....a big friendly ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 11:49
It's your opinion, with due respect to you, sir, that she's just another singer with her piano and I don't agree with it. Little Earthquakes has diversity and width that very few modern prog albums, at least from the big names, can boast of. Sure, OK Computer is at an even higher plane in that respect, but I guess even that's grudgingly accepted as prog in these parts. I always thought and still do that prog was or is about this diversity and width, the ability to approach a concept in different ways, the ability to break out of rudimentary form, even if in modest ways like Little Earthquakes, at all times bound together tightly by compositional command and control. I always took prog to have 'progressed' rock in that sense more than any other - of making it more sophisticated and 'musical'. It has taken me rather a long time to figure out that it's perceived mostly as a left brained, geeky game. In other words, Tori Amos just sounds less progressive because her mode of delivery and chosen instrumental palate is all too familiar but in terms of control over her medium, she's got a headstart over those bands who sound exciting and out there on the surface and have woefully not made much effort to put the pieces together on closer examination and thereby fall flat. For me, that is a bare minimum qualification to call an artist prog and in that sense, Tori has something to do with prog without really being anywhere as brilliant or inventive as the greats of prog, should that be the standards by which you want to evaluate her. Also, her music evokes Joni Mitchell much more for me and her singing Madonna. Kate Bush is quite a different beast altogether. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 14:41
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I HATE Joanna Newsom's music, but I don't see why not. Because she isn't rock? I don't recall Comus or Blackmore's Night doing anything rock either.
Whole categories like progressive folk and progressive electronic includes music that isn't rock at all.
I don't see how that's relevant as they sound nothing alike. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 14:43
Yeah, if a woman makes weird music that makes her a Kate Bush clone. It's good to know this forum only lets the best and the brightest contribute. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 16:39
If you believe the press, then practically any woman singer who isn't Britney Spears/Cheryl Cole is a "Kate Bush clone" or "Kate Bush influenced" e.g. Bat for Lashes, Florence etc etc. |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 17:28
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From the one track posted, I wouldn't call her a Kate Bush clone. But her voice and phrasing are a bit like Kate's.
------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: ProgBob
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 18:49
Hear hear! BTW I heard Paul Stump, author of 'The Music's All That Matters', interviewed on the radio recently about the latest edition of his book and he chose three tracks to be played: Genesis - The Fountain of Salmacis Egg - While Growing My Hair and Joanna Newsom - Monkey and Bear I know it doesn't prove anything but it does show that the idea of Joanna Newsom being progressive has a currency beyond a few people posting on this forum. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: FunkyM
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 18:59
That's similar to my line of thinking.
Re: Bush vs. Amos, I don't mind Tori being on PA, but do find it kind of odd that Kate is in Prog Related while Tori is in Crossover. Maybe I'm missing what makes Tori more prog than Kate. I dunno. *shrug* I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'm really more flustered about Tori making it and Happy Rhodes isn't here at all! No justice, dang it! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 19:37
He was talking about Tori Amos and not Newsom, though even then I am not sure about the comparison. I suppose Newsom is just another singer-songwriter with a harp. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 10 2011 at 02:56
yes, I was speaking of TA.... To me Newsom doesn't remind me much of Bush....
and Kate is harfly "just another singer-songwriter", she's much more than that
.... I used that expression only for Tori Amos, which I also happen to like the first two albums.... the rest is more of the same but in a more boring singer-songwriter manner...
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: July 14 2014 at 01:53
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Bangable woman indeed that Andy Samberg is one lucky dude ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 14 2014 at 06:30
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