Most prog stars of this time did of course come from similar backgrounds of private education where things like Greek and Latin mythology would have been taught heavily so maybe this is just it.

Rush did of course use some Greek mythology in their work but i get the feeling they were following the lead of the others, even though Neil Peart is a literature enthusiast (not an insult of Rush by the way)

what are other peoples thoughts on why it might have appeared in so much early prog work? and any other examples of it in 70's prog

 

............................................

 

Maybe your correct but offhand I cant think of YES or King Crimson doing much along lines of Greek mythology.

(how come I get the feeling Im gonna regret this?)

Crimson had in the wake of Poseidon but you are right i can't think of any Yes ones but i do remember some mention of Jon Anderson referencing it subtly in some of his lyrics

Well, there is this good movie made - so bleeding good that I forgot any of the actors in it and the movie title (and its driving me insane).

Like all the best movies, its concerned with honour.

 

Its about this private school for sons of rich knobs - young men which much is expected of -,future politician-b*****ds and the like.

 

And ,right off the bat, their main study is a course on Greek Mythology. The spoiled brats cant understand this. One questions the professor - why are we, who may one day rule the world ,being taught this juvenile drivel and not Economics or....Mass Deception.

 

And the professor gives this wonderful speech why the study of GM is necessary for the cultivation of Mastermen (like yours truely).

 

I wish I could quote this - but, like I say, I forgot all.

 

All that I remember is that these 3 student friends become big shots in the world and ,as a lark, they decide to throw a greek quiz  in front of a large audience (at the political inaugeration of one of these Mastermen) inviting the old schoolteacher to ask the question .

Now the schoolmaster is very noble & honest and he finds out that the American would-be worldleader is cheating at this "fun" quiz (as he cheated throughout university). But ,also he takes note of how much the devil-father of this American devilpolitician son is beaming with pride and how public humiliation of his son would kill him.

There is a tie between the devilson and a former (honest) richknob classmate (who happens to be of Indian extraction).

Even though the honorable professor remains mum and doesnt reveal the machinations of the devil-American, the Indian (who always had remarkable memory) answers the question correctly - a question, of course, relating to the Greek course the professor taught ages ago whilst they were still youngmen. (The question happens to be the very first question the proffessor asked those students way back then.)

 

So, honesty and goodness wins out in the end - even though the Americandevil shrugs it all off and goes on to become a likely a major world-shaker (and ruiner).

 

NOW I remember - the actor playing the defeated (  but upright) professor is Kevin Kline. (Ive never liked ANY of his films, but THIS is a good one.

 

If only I could remember the title.

 

 

 

Speaking of bad memory, it took a while, but, if anyone is interested, some more band names with Greek/Roman myth reference:

 

Agamemnon (Spanish and, I believe German? band)

Apollo (Finland)

Atlantis (Dutch???)

Hades (Sweden)

Hybris (swede fusion)

Proteus (US fusion)

Lethe - great Dutch band   lp is quite rare. (Of course, the Masterman has it!)

Calliope (Italy)

Rhesus (fr fusion)

Thalassa (germ)

Poseidon (germon)

Triton (newish prog band - I forget the country, probably Italy)

Aires (It)

Spartacus (Germ)

Amphitryte (UK?)

Electra (East Germ)

Praxis (Mexico)

Dionysos (Can)

Iris (fr)

Pan (spain)

Pluto (UK)

Hypnos 69

Momus (great artist, but not prog)

 

And let us not forget the prog band Cassiopea (as well as the sh*t fusion one)

 

 

Oh - also David Allan & Euturpe (Australia)

 

 

...

 

You want a list of specific song titles? Baggs the MasterProgGuru got tons:

Godfrey - fall of Hyperion

Marsupilami - Arena

Triumvirat- Spartacus

Pascal Languirand - Minos

Renaissance - Midas man

Comus - Diana

Gatto Marte -DanaeRose -taste of Neptune

Secret Oyster - Leda & the dog

Japanese wotsit group - Leda & the swan

Manfred Mann Earthband - Pluto the dog

Quasar Lux Symphony - march of argonauts

Chase - Zeus suite

Trip- Caronte

Lucifer's Friend- Satyr's Dance

david Bedford - Scylla & Charbidis

Mike Oldfield - Incantations 4th movement

ELP - 3 fates

Kansas -Ikarus suite

Macdonald & Giles - birdman

Spontaneous Combustion - Pan

Paul Roland -Atlantis

Curved Air - Elfin boy

Jeannie Lewis -freefall from featherless flight (Australia, lp I just recently found)

Fit & Limo - Pan

Genesis - Hermaphroditus (son of gods) wotsit, Lamia, etc etc

Procol Harum -Cerdes

 

 

VA "The Odyssey" super 3cd set from Colossus

VA "Colossus of Rhodes"

Wakeman "7 wonders of the world"

 

"Ulysses Suite" that 2lp set (with pale blue coverart)  by some US band, I forget - Ulysses maybe??

 

 

 

Whose The Man?

BAGGS!!!

 

   

 

 

 

Emperor's Club   it is.

 

Now find me that quote why deep study of Greek Mythology is necessary toward becoming a  masterman.

 

 

Speaking of mastermen, I wish you all to pick yourselves up by the bootstaps, stand up straight with chest out, and proudly proclaim,

 

 "Baggs is THE MAN!" 

 

 

Thats the ferk-bible, not Greek mytho.

 

You doing Norwegian crack, or what.

 

At the time, some of this stuff was still being taught/read in school, at least in Madison where I did 9th through 12th with no English ... Greek Mytholody per se was not taught ... but by the time you read Sophocles, and a couple of others, the teacher would have had you write a paper on something in Greek Mythology ... and you're going to learn some of it when you read one story alone (Oedipus), which goes through 2 generations and encompasses almost one third of Greek myths (Phaedra, Electra, Creon, Jason ... )

 

It is, for my tastes, a lot better inspiration than writing about a silly brown sugar bitch! ... that I couldn't be interested in regardless of how good looking she was ... as I said before ... advertising is a good thing ... but not for me!

 

It was also a show that musicians were a lot more intelligent than just street idiots and hit makers, and if you have even checked/read anything about the "boomers" all over the media, this would make a lot more sense ... most music in those days was considered "pop" music and it never got any recognition for its intelligence and design and composition ... and one way to show off all that academia and professors that they were full of poohpooh (not winnie!) ... was to do something that was more "classical" and had more literary value than just stupid and fun lyrics for the time when you are drunk, picking up a date at the bar, when music doesn't matter.

 

"Progressive" music was a name that ended up being given to a lot of bands whose work was more intelligent and defined than most "rock bands" out there ... and this is the reason why, for me, so much of the early metal stuff, like BS and UH and DP was not important ... because it was more of the same just done harder and louder ... and I did not think that was important, unless we were talking about money ... and of course, being the good peons that most of us are ... that's what we worship today ... the sales and the numbers ... not the art or the music!

 

Most prog stars of this time did of course come from similar backgrounds of private education where things like Greek and Latin mythology would have been taught heavily so maybe this is just it.

 

Not necessarily. There are just as many educated musicians as there are uneducated musicians that went on to do some very nice things. That has been discussed many times here.

what are other peoples thoughts on why it might have appeared in so much early prog work? and any other examples of it in 70's prog

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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Not necessarily. There are just as many educated musicians as there are uneducated musicians that went on to do some very nice things. That has been discussed many times here.

[quote] 

It is a generalisation but most of the big stars of this generation of Prog did come from that background, Genesis and the Canterbury scene were from a well off background and had private educations that would have led to their eclectic tastes of classical music and complex lyrics

Don't let Dean see this post!

 

There is no relationship, in general, between ability and schooling. There are some incredible examples ... two member of Can that studied with Stockhausen, for example, but us here in America and England have a funny way of not caring for that ... or the studies in that school in Berlin where Ravi Shankar was trying to teach people sitar and ragas at the same time!

 

The movements were in full force already, and I have written about it ... Can's work in Tago Mago (for example) is almost ALL what should be called "anti-music" ... and the same thing for many other examples that became known as "kruatrock" because it's ideas were only defined as ... no Anglo-American concepts of music allowed or needed! ... which we still have an issue with. Anti-film had started some 10 years earlier with Truffaut and Godard. So a kid like Werner Herzog, or Fassbinder, picking up a camera with no education ... was not a problem ... and neither was Peter Handke, although he is from the academic background, his work in the beginning was 100% "anti-literature" ...

 

The Rolling Stones didn't need to go to college to do the great works they did. The Beatles did not need to go to college to get their education. Same for the Kinks. Some of the Canterbury came out of the same schools and such, but Daevid Allen did not do much in the way of formal education ... but he ended up spending his time with Burroughs or Ginsberg and other literatii in France and Europe and he was intelligent enough to translate his "beat poetry" ideas into music ... and he deserves to be a part of the "beat poets" ... if we were not so damn stuck up thinking that modern music is not art, but a commercial thing only. And 50 years later the world of academics is STILL thinking that uneducated people can not create art ... which is not appropriate, specially in a board like this.

 

You should read Peter Michael Hamel's book ... From Music to the Self ... considering all the music he did, the book is a total assault on popular music ... and an embarassment to himself and music! The rich and well to do can do music and art ... the rest are peons and idiots and can't because they are not educated ... wow ... let me go wake up DH Lawrence ... you need a good _____________________!

i was in no way saying there that only people who got an expensive education can play prog there because it's not true. What i was saying is that the first generation of prog did derive from this background where the ideas of inputting classical music into the still new rock n roll scene would have looked innovative and appealing

 

I come from a very high educational background and their biggest thing for my 60 years on this earth? .... why you listening to uneducated people ... and wasting your time!

 

The biggest issue, with even suggesting that, is that there is a difference in feelings, sentiments, ideas, ability and whatever else other tangents, that define one's creativity. It is, one of the ways that the academic world "separates" itself from the other groups in society, and helps them stabilize their own social situation in an academic world by giving "validity" to their words and works ONLY, and not anyone else's ... you're not going to accept much of what I say, but if it came from the mouth of someone in bruhaha university that published 5 books on anything from crap to utensils ... it will be accepted much more. In the end, you're not hurting me ... but you are not allowing yourself to disseminate the "truth" ... because you only chose one side, instead of making an objective decision based on both sides and ideas.

 

It scares me, to see a suggestion that a man (or woman) off the street can not do it ... and you can walk down the streets in Madrid or Barcelona, or New York, or Buenos Aires, or San Francisco, and there are many pickers with a guitar in hand that could make the majority of all rock guitar players look like kids with a rich instrument in their hand ... and no talent whatsoever ... geee ... they are playing the same chords over and over with just a different sound ... or on a different string!

 

But that is not to say that some folks have done some really beautiful things and deserve the credit. I'm not cynical enough to do the very same thing I deplore and mark here with words.

 

The first generation of prog was not anymore inspired than the rock musicians that opened up radio and music for the masses ... that simple. The luck of the time period is that FM radio started, and in the early days it WAS NOT commercial and this allowed for longer cuts and albums to get played. 5 years later, FM radio became as stupid and hit ridden as the other version of radio was ... check your dial lately? And this is the only "true" beginning of the progressive music we liked ... there was not an outlet for these long cuts in "radio" ... and with the advent of the success of some of these works, it became more acceptable and alternative ways to get these things in radio started coming out. ... which 20 years later, we got the ultimate revenge on radio ... we're killing it with the Internet and I can't wait to see radio die! ... because of its lack of respect for the arts ... but in the end, radio was expensive and you had to pay for it ... so it having to be a commercial adventure is understandable, the problem being that too many folks involved in radio, still today ... check out all those trying to pick the teens ... are only interested in the dope and the girls ... and never gave a damn about the music ... !!! That's the biggest issue ... you and I did not want to be involved with some of that scum ... and I can tell you I DIDN'T ... but I did help my roomate establish Space Pirate Radio, still the best import and alien show ever on radio ... it's just a shame that folks at ProgArchives will never listen to it.

 

There is a bunch of stuff these days, specially USA Today, that is talking about the boomers, and a lot of it is right ... the only part missing is ... the continuation of that freedom and understanding ... and that is where "progressive" fits and comes and belongs. It was not necessarily just one crowd, because I can tell you that many of the folks I was around in communes in Madison and then Santa Barbara to tell the big difference ... in Madison everyone was "regular people" ... in Santa Barbara, they were all "affluently rich and didn't care about anything except their hipness" ... which is another version of the same discussion here ... but a good example of how corrupt and distorted it all can get ... and while at the same time, still be a part of something, I guess ... but I never felt some people in California were into much of anything except some drugs and free sex ... the women were easy! ... and the music? .... yeah .. you got it!

I have not in any capacity suggested that you have to have this background to do it in prog rock. Once again for clarity what i am saying is - The 1970's Prog Rock Scene bands from England like Genesis and Canterbury Bands and some members of Yes did have this background which would have had an influence on what the music they produced contained and was LYRICALLY written about. 

I am in know way suggesting that a working class musician who has a passion for music but little education can not play prog rock to the standard of the hey day of prog. I am talking about individuals and you are talking about all people in general and that is where you're offence at this has occurred 

 

Ohhh damn ... I guess that some of us can't be progressive then!

 

The bad part is that it suggests that the progressive scene only came from those folks ... and that is incorrect! It had started years before then and was all over the world ... it's just that we're choosing some that we like more than others ...

 

Picky picky!

Of course there was prog before but like i have said already i am talking about where a specific scene came from. The 70's England scene came from this not all prog scenes. 

Lets take an overview of what i'm saying in list form so that you might understand and not disect it to suit your own argument

I AM talking about:

1. A specific set of musicians that made up the most famous section of the scene the world associates with Progressive Rock

The BRITISH SCENE that occurred in the NINETEEN SEVENTIES fronted by bands like GENESIS and YES who had members who came from a wealthy privately educated background that might have influenced THE INGREDIENTS THAT WENT INTO THEIR MUSIC

2. I AM NOT talking about :  ALL MUSICIANS OF EVERY GENERATION GENRE, SUB GENRE, BACKGROUND, SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND WEALTH

are we clear?

 

So I suggest ,besides YES and Genesis, you two do a little web searching on band origions  and line  up your ducks as examples.

 

For instance were Jethro Tull for the most part out of the gutter or art school.

 

Topo: Concerning UK , a lot of progs and I would think even more protoprogs,  came  from (ignorant) northern  (mining and the like) towns and not just well-to-do artschool districts of London.

 

Fact is, much, much UK prog predominantly comes from workingclass background.

 

This is just as true as the statement that most progfans of 70s  didnt give a hoot for the meaning of "high" lyric. Doubtless true for  the progfandom of today - they  know/care  less of Anderson's interpertation of Siddhartha, of Amadis of Gaul or the Volsunga Saga , less of  the sources/meaning of flighty fantasy lyric ...than they know of ...Keenu Reeves, Spiderman  and ferkin' Avatar.

 

How many you think came out of  gilt  ivory towers;  how many out of foundry towns and the like?