I have signed up to this forum to state my case for John Bonham.  Unfortunately the topic I wanted to reply to was closed so this is just a general post.

 

Firstly I am not a prog rock fan although I can certainly appreciate some of the music.  I am a punk and heavy metal fan who one day was asked to listen to the first Led Zeppelin album which as you know opens with Good Times Bad Times.  This was, and still is, to my ears one of the finest pieces of drumming I have ever heard. 

 

Unless one plays the drums it is very hard for a non drummer to understand the complex patterns of sixteenth notes John Bonham plays on the bass drum on the aforementioned song.

 

For other parts of his armoury I will point you in the direction of Fool in the Rain which has a lovely half time shuffle which is very reminiscent of Bernard Purdie.

 

Other songs which show his expertise include Rock and Roll, he has no double bass drums at the end of this song unlike the majority of those who have covered this song.  Also please listen to No Quarter, Achilles Last Stand, Misty Mountain Hop, The Song Remains the Same, Four Sticks, the Immigrant Song and just for the lovely groove When the Levee Breaks.

 

Please listen to these songs and break down what he is playing and then you will understand he is not overrated. 

 

Admittedly there are more technical rock drummers who have feel such as Mike Portnoy but I would say John Bonham wrote those parts and this makes the difference,

 

I am not saying anyone is the "best" as this is very difficult to quantify but what I am saying is that he is rated very highly with good reason and this comes from someone who loves the styles of Topper Headon and Lucky Lehrer so this goes against my own musical preference although from my love of the Bonham style I have come to appreciate Led Zeppelin and actually quite like a lot of their tracks now.

 

I once spoke to a producer about this and he said drummers are still trying to recreate that elusive Bonham sound and there is a reason why we do not hear it anymore.  The common thread behind the reason for the Bonham sound is John Henry Bonham and that in itself speaks volumes.

 

I look forward to constructive criticism.

 

Best

 

M 

 

 

 

I remember our drummer who could do metal double bass with ease, trying to make that seemingly simple little groove really go, and how hard it was.

 

Bonzo was a monster. All four of those guys, warts and all, were rock and roll masters.

All the songs you mentioned are def. his trademarks, especially his take on the Perdie Shuffle.

 

 

Hello Finnforest

 

I completely agree with you and decide in the same way about guitarists as I do not play the guitar so I can only go on feel for this and interestingly I rate Jimmy Page very highly for this heavy bluesy guitar riffs like Heartbreaker but I digress.

 

Yes Bonham certainly had a big heavy sound.  I would not say I tune out Robert Plant but I definitely focus more on JPJ and John Bonham for the grooves they had together on songs such as How Many More Times when they just link in perfectly and again on Dazed and Confused.  That Scandanavian late 60's TV show in black and white always amazes me as they did not learn their craft but came out fully formed as a band. 

 

I would say without bragging I can listen to a lot of drummers and work out what they are playing and how they are playing pretty quickly but then there are others which when listened to always seem to bring out something new and something which was previously missed or I realise actually he is not playing that note on the 3 of 4 but the 3e of 4 or actually he is not riding that cymbal but playing a polyrhythm. 

 

I would say I can not say that about every drummer.  He definitely needs to be listened to with a careful ear because apart from that big sound he understood feel, independence and drum rudiments and the likes of Dave Grohl and Tommy Lee are the children of that style.

 

I have the one written by his brother Mick and yes away from the drum stool he does appear to be quiet and self effacing when not engulfed by the demon drink.   It is very hard to believe he lacked confidence in his playing but then again we have no idea who he measured himself against but I know he listened to a lot of jazz and listening to the likes of Bernard Purdie and Art Blakey, who can play a roll with one hand faster than most drummers with two, are enough of knock anyones confidence,

 

Thank you for your comments

 

Best

 

M

 

My post was in answer to this post by Sasquamo

 

Do you think John Bonham is overrated?

 

Unfortunately the post was locked and I still wanted to voice my opinion.  It is the first time I have done this but I just wanted to have my say.

 

I do not know much about Dale Crover as I liked the Melvins when they were more hardcore and their drummer was Mike Dillard from memory but when it comes to punk no one has more energy than D.H. Peligro.

 

Best

 

M

 

I find it much easier to play double bass drums than some of the sixteenth note single bass drum patterns.  The latter requires accuracy and finesse whereas with the former one only has to have the right pattern.   Also a basic double bass pattern sounds more impressive than it really is, listen to the start of Overkill and you will see what I mean. 

 

With regards to double bass drums the drummer I have seen who impresses me the most was Dave Lombardo from Slayer.  I was amazed at the speed and accuracy and I was specifically listening to him.

 

Best

 

M 

 

Hello Harmonium

 

I did not know that.  It was his post that I found this evening whilst searching for John Bonham clips as I was in a drumming mood that made me want to sign up and reply. 

 

I do not disagree but I want that denial to be constructive.  I can not argue against hate and I do not like hate for hates sake if that makes sense.  If someone says I do not like something because......... then that is acceptable but just to say overrated without understanding frustrates me. 

 

Thank you for putting my mind at ease.  I can now sleep peacefully as it is very late here

 

I'll have to come back now as this has been a good experience

 

Best

 

M

 

Dave Grohl, without a shadow of a doubt but I would say Matt Cameron is much softer and will knock you off guard as he is much more technical than one would expect using a seven stroke roll style of fill and paradiddles a lot.  There is something in his playing which reminds me of Ginger Baker.  I think it is the way he uses fills.

 

I like Danny Carey especially when he is playing with Green Jelly when he is out and out fast and aggressive but when he plays with Tool he has a much jazzier style not, not really shown in this clip but I saw Tool a while ago and I definitely thought so then.

 

Best

 

M

Henry, Henry, Henry. So hip you are. Why don't you show us a Youtube video of some bum randomly hitting trash cans and tell us how genius it all is.

Bonham is undoubtably the most influential rock drummer for good reasons. Wether you can relate to the music or not is completely irrelevant. Bonham has either directly or indirectly influenced any rock drummer you can think of. He's done a lot for drumming and rock in general. You should learn some respect and get over yourself for a change.  

I agree with tarkus1980.  As far as I know I'm the only person on earth who does. I searched the web for this. John Bonham is the most overrated drummer in rock. And I play drums so I know something.

John Bonham had a lot of skill, but his style gets on my nerves. He plays WAY TOO LOUD or not at all on most of their mellow songs. Personally, I wish he played more cymbal heavy like Keith Moon on their heavy songs. There's only a few songs where I DON'T complain about his drumming. As a sometimes drummer, I'd play most of his songs very different. In his defense, he had a sense of groove you don't see much with British drummers. But there's more to a good drummer than just groove. He played the same on half the Led Zeppelin songs. I think he's boring. I'd take Bill Bruford, Stewart Copeland, BJ Wilson (Procol Harum), or even Bill Ward or Ian Paice over him. 

Too bad the millions of John Bonham followers can't tolerate the occasional dissenter. They must burn him at the stake. Look at tarkus1980's http://www.johnmcferrinmusicreviews.org/zep.html" rel="nofollow - Led Zeppelin page and see how many Bonhamists attack him for blaspheming their drum God.

Atavachron: Maybe that's why I never liked Led Zeppelin much. Or it could be that I don't like blues or country much. And just because a style's become a normal style doesn't mean I have to like it. You could make good arguments against Eddie Van Halen or John Coltrane the same way. I still think he's a good drummer, but I never think "Wow, that drumming's awesome!" when I hear him. You're right that Zeppelin had a lot of quiet songs. But John Bonham didn't play on a lot of them, or he played too loud for the surrounding music. Flaws are flaws regardless of what style they're supposed to be. Nobody is perfect. 

I can think of a lot of recognizable drummers besides Bonham - many more so because so much later rock drumming rips off John Bonham. Besides the drummers I named before, I can recognize Charlie Watts and Ringo Starr pretty fast.

I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend avant-garde music. 

Bonham is undoubtably the most influential rock drummer for good reasons. Wether you can relate to the music or not is completely irrelevant. Bonham has either directly or indirectly influenced any rock drummer you can think of. He's done a lot for drumming and rock in general. You should learn some respect and get over yourself for a change.

I really don't care about rock drummers, but I think you are taking my reply too seriously. 

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

 

"tarkus1980's criticisms are fair, but the problem with his position is the same problem with saying Eddie Van Halen's influence "did unthinkable damage to three generations of guitarists" or that John Coltrane "ruined the saxophone"-- it doesn't really matter whether it's true or not; the impact is undeniable, here to stay, and has been integrated into modern playing as all important techniques are."

 

"John Bonham may have ruined rock drumming, but at least it's permanent."  Yeah, thanks Bonzo!

 

 

Bonham always grooved and I applaud Atavachron assessment of "No Bonzo, No Zep" which obviously Robert Plant has believed for 30 years.

Then we'll see what the populace then thinks of your then PRECIOUS John then Bonsteak, then! Muahahahahathenhahaha.

 

I agree John Bonham had a lot of skill, and I mean a lot of skill, but I think some of this has been lost due to his great groove.  I am glad he did not play like Keith Moon because after listening too Moon and playing along there is a heavy reliance on triplets which can be quite boring.  I know the same could be levelled at Bonham but the way he played that snare, tom, bass drum triplet is amazing and I have to admit to stealing that fill. 

 

Personally I would not change a note of the way Bonham played but I have to admit being a punk devotee of Bonham definitely helped me in the late 80's when I played in bands because my style seemed to fit with everything from Metallica to Motley Crue. 

 

I agree there is more to drumming than groove but I believe Bonham had this and if you listen to some of the work on Led Zeppelin IV there is a jazz feel to some of the tracks and some of the others remind me a little of Jeff Porcaro.

 

I would never say Bonham is boring but I definitely agree with you about Stewart Copeland who would always be in my top 3.  There are not many drummers who sound like Copeland and there is a reason for that some of his playing is very complex espcially his hi-hat work.   I also like Ian Paice and that fill in Black Night got me hooked before being blown about by Fireball I think the track is. 

 

Interestingly the drummer which moved me from punk to branch out of that into something other than fast 4/4 was Bill Ward and from there I learned the whole of the Sabbath back catalogue and then Master of Puppets by Metallica. 

 

As I have said before progressive rock and I always kept our distance because I felt it was just over playing but then I heard Bill Bruford on the album Yes and I have to admit I have enjoyed his playing ever since and even made me go back to listen to Close to the Edge by Yes which included the sort of technical over playing at the time I disliked.  Strangely enough I have since gone on to follow the Bruford philosophy of why stick to 4/4, branch out to 3/4, 5/4, 12/8 etc and this led me on to listen to Ginger Baker, Clive Bunker, Phil Collins which led me to Peter Erskine and Steve Gadd.

 

I am now of the philosophy that listening to all these different musicians can greatly enrich ones playing, not exactly the philosophy I have always held but I suppose as we get older we become wiser. 

 

Best

 

M 

  

 

If you only think he is a "pretty good drummer" I wondered who you preferred?

 

I am just interested, not criticising

 

Thank you

 

M

 

I definitely agree with this and one of my secrets is having some of the ELP albums and learning them as I liked a lot of the snare work but what I will say about Carl Palmer and I am sure he would agree with this himself he was not always in time.  I feel the technical aspects were overtaking what being a drummer was all about. 

 

I agree Palmer is highly skilled and although dynamic I do not think Moon is as very technical but he did have the ability to drive that band,  I actually think Zakk Starkey is a lot more technical.  I think a lot of non drummers hear the wildness of Moon's triplets and mistake it for beng more technical than it is.

 

I think it is possible to have both skills if you listen to the likes of Cozy Powell you will see what I mean.

 

Best

 

M 

 

Yes he was in Opal Butterly with Hawkwind's greatest front man Lemmy

 

Best

 

M

 

 

 

Palmer believed he had to try and play ahead of the tempo. I remember him explaining this at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in Birmingham UK (via a video recording not in person). CP at his peak was a force of nature. Listening back to the bootlegs of him playing in 1974 with ELP must have made a load of drummers at the time just want to give up!

 

 

 

Him and Lemmy on Space Ritual just doit for me  so there!

 

 

 

I do not doubt Carl Palmer's technical talent, especially his snare drum work,  but he is definitely not a natural time keeper.

 

Best

 

M

 

Best

 

M

 

 

 

as for me, death metal drummers impressed me a lot while in high school.

 

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