Is ELP the Most Disliked Prog Band?
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Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79220
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Topic: Is ELP the Most Disliked Prog Band?
Posted By: MattGuitat
Subject: Is ELP the Most Disliked Prog Band?
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:20
| Personally, I love ELP, but they seem to get a really bad rep. Why is this? I know they were inconsistent, but when they shone, the really shone. They were one of the top bands in the world, nearly tied with Zeppelin at the end of 1974. But why does everyone give them a bad rep? |
Replies:
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:24
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It's because they were overtly pretentious and excessive, even more so than the other big prog acts. I think they're awesome though. Tarkus (song) is a masterpiece. So is The Endless Enigma+Fugue ------------- I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't |
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:32
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Nope -------------  
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:32
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Lovely to see the revival of a classic thread that comes about every so often. I started my own version 'Why does everyone hate ELP?' about 6 years ago. ELP were bombastic and at times came across as arrogant. They also dared to enjoy themselves which may actually be a crime.Lyrically they were a long way behind the likes of Floyd and Genesis as well as several others and musically not as strong perhaps as Gentle Giant or Yes. To many they served a purpose by helping to raise the profile of prog and should have got out when the going was good (about 1974) and left it to those who were better at it. To be fair though there have been quite a lot of positive comments about their High Voltage performance from people who don't especially like them. I suspect there has been some softening of attitiude towards them over time. Or perhaps thats because they are now more or less finished?!
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:37
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Not actually, the most hated band is http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1187" rel="nofollow - Torman Maxt .
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:44
they're so hated, I've never even heard of them!  ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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CCVP wrote:Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:47
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Actually by PA standards the most hated 'Prog' band is METALLICA!!! -------------
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:50
------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:51
lol ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 15:59
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I'd say Dream Theater probably stir up more polarised opinion than ELP
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Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 16:03
Dream theater's fan base are an army or raging fanboys who think that they can do no wrong, and make up for any hate they get ------------- I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 16:13
Boy I remember that thread......wow! The Hate Runneth'over...
And on topic about ELP..... Seems like everyone feels it is due to their bombastic approach to music. I do agree lyrically they were lacking substance...but on the flipside they seemed to be having a lot of fun. I am neutral with ELP, I don't listen to them much. -------------   
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Posted By: MattGuitat
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 18:07
| Yea, but people appreciate Dream Theater's masterpieces, while ELP's masterpiece, Brain Salad Surgery, isn't even on the top 100 Prog albums list! |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 18:14
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of the "classic " prog bands ELP and Renaissance seem like the two least popular among the 8 or 9 most famous prog groups of the so called classic groups)
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Posted By: Frederik
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 18:23
| I don't know, they are pretty average with moments of PURE GENIOUS - Tarkus is one of my favourite songs and I also love Karn Evil 9, Trilogy, Hoedown, and a couple of others ^_^ |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 19:27
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Yes,i know that some enjoy disliking them, but that happens with any band. In general, they were a success story, a progressive rock guiding light, and i am sure that there are more people that like them than do not. On the one hand, a "people's band" whose fans are loyal and a group whose music really resonates with their fans , and also an inspiration to other progressive rock musicians and resultant groups Looking at everything, when i think of ELP and what they have achieved, i think of the switch being "On", not "Off" |
Posted By: notesworth
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 20:29
| Porcupine Tree used to get lots of love, but they get lots of hate now to go with it. Opeth also get equal amounts of love and hate. Most prog snobs look down on you if you like Spock's Beard or Flower Kings. |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 20:35
im sorry you have such a one sided opinion ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 21:04
I'm pretty neutral toward them, but their first four albums all have 4 or above. It's easy to see though how their later stuff brings outrage from prog-heads: |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 21:52
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Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 22:04
Most opinions are one sided ------------- I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't |
Posted By: criticdrummer94
Date Posted: June 23 2011 at 23:46
| I think it is because of the fact that they went out of their way to be bombastic and over the top and did everything that most people dislike about progressive music but in doing so they became massively successful and with success they're is backlash because then people assume you do it for the money when that wasn't the case |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 00:24
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I love them first band to get me into prog on the BSS tour. They reached a large audience and most of the hatred comes from people who hated prog rock. now echoed so loudly by prog fans who want to sound like they know something but don't realize they are just quoting the people who hate what they like. ------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 01:05
good point That said I do like John Peels comment about Alan 'Fluff' Freeman as 'the man that discovered Emerson,Lake and Palmer when they were just millionaires and turned them into multi- millionaires'. ELP were sort of the ultimate capitalist supergroup although their empire came crashing down with the 1977 orchestral tour which lost about a million dollars per show. Ironically that put them into a position where they became vulnerable and as a result came the much derided Love Beach album and a supposed commercial approach that was more or less forced onto them by the president of Atlantic records.That sealed their fate in the end.
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Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 01:26
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They weren't afraid to be ambitious, and sometimes too much so. Its the same way with comics. If a comic's act is to be edgy, sometimes he might simply go too far and its the same with ELP ... which is why I personally love them!! ------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 01:56
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Kansas get far more hate on this site. Undeservedly I might add. ------------- 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 02:56
ELP certainly seem to be the whipping boy whenever the popular music press want to knock progressive rock, pointing to over the top soloing, extravagant stage shows & general excess, but the fact remains (for me, at least), their albums up to & including the triple live WBMFTTSTNE (can't be arsed to type the whole title  ) contain some of the finest examples of the genre.
Dream Theater certainly polarise opinions, especially here (speaking as a forum moderator, believe me, I know  ), but again, their back catalogue contains some stunning music; all they need is a singer 
+++hides+++ ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 03:00
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They have that rep, but reps are stupid and usually empty. Besides, I've heard the "ELP is so pretentious and decadent and self indulgent" thing from "big name" sources. I wonder how many prog rock fans actually dislike them? Some of course, but I can't see it being massive hordes who do. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 03:02
EtL and Jim both make excellent points. And yeah, everyone threw up a fuss about MP but the weakest member of DT is still around singing! *hopes there is room for me* |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 03:35
Bravo! Some of these fanboys threw a proper hissy fit in a DT thread once merely because I pointed out some aspects I don't like about their music (and completely disregarding that I mentioned some albums that I like). Yeah...so I guess anybody who doesn't say DT is the best band in the world is a hater? I don't wanna hear about it then. I've given up attempts to say anything constructive about the band, it's preferable to just wind them up as per the usual.
 On topic...ELP DOES get a bad rep compared to the other big prog rock bands and it's with some basis in reason. The other bands didn't showboat quite as much as ELP live and their studio albums almost seem to be designed to be something that will be jaw dropping live or such. With that said, it's well worth overlooking these flaws because Tarkus is one of the great prog rock albums and one of the most important too.
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Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 06:17
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In terms of their popular image, yeah, I think it's pretty hard to deny rogerthat's point that they did showboat a lot. Remember Greg Lake's goofy little rug he'd stand on to play? Remember how they made a big show of how many huge lorries they needed to lug around their concert gear? I think part of the backlash was that they were doing all this at a time when most musicians who hadn't enjoyed a similar level of success simply couldn't afford to - Keith tried to take an enormous Moog rig on tour, for goodness' sake, a move which *Dr Moog himself* thought was crazy. I think the reason the punk backlash in particular focused on bands like ELP is that at the time it simply wasn't viable for anyone starting a band and struggling to make it in the music business to do what ELP were doing - their gear and their concerts were *expensive*, and that meant only a small elite of musicians could really compete on their turf. So it's not surprising that the punk scene, with its DIY ethos and the idea that anyone could have a go latched onto them, and to be fair it was a point that needed to be made - rock music was in danger of becoming a game that only the rich could play. Nowadays, though, with synth and home recording technology moving on as far as they have, the playing field is much more level and it's just plain less expensive to get a prog band up and running - hence why we have such a healthy crop of bands catering us today who might not be making a living out of prog, but a) are willing to do it for the love of the genre and b) can afford to do it for the love of the genre without ruining themselves. So the attitude that used to be applied to ELP is, itself, outdated and not something that's moved with the times. That said, whilst I do like some of their work, I do have mixed feelings about ELP myself. I think mainly it's because I find their sense of humour really isn't compatible with mine, so their novelty songs end up grating on me.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 07:59
Ditto. I find they try very hard to be funny in a musical equivalent of Jim Carrey kind of way, rather than witty. A forced brand of humour for my taste. Still, the idea of putting an armadillo on the artwork tickles. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 08:04
Actually, quite apart from all of these, they simply waste too much time on redundant solos for Emerson and Palmer. Both solo really well and it is very entertaining to listen to but the opportunity to do something more substantial was wasted. And at the end of the day, in terms of uniqueness, the Wetton KC ensemble of musicians blew it away imo. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 09:52
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 10:03
Well, I don't know, songs like Aqualung and Locomotive Breath are classic rock staples and even if he's regarded as eccentric, Anderson wins a lot of fans with his charismatic presence. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 10:06
Being one huge DT fanboy, I can agree with the stated: LaBrie isn't the brightest of the pack. -------------
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Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 10:19
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I can honestly say that Tarkus is the only song by ELP that I actually like. But then again I flat out don't like Yes, and I can only enjoy Genesis in small doses. So while I honestly do not like ELP that could stem from my more general feelings about symphonic prog. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 11:25
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If you don't like all of the parts of Karn Evil 9, it is probably fair to say that you don't like symphonic prog. -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 11:48
No it's not. I don't like all the parts, and I love symphonic prog. ELP are certainly always derided by the so-called popular music press and general media when it comes to bashing prog, so, as a rule, I don't take a blind bit of notice. That said, I was never a big fan. In fact, my favourite album of theirs is the one with Cozy Powell on. I know - I am weird  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 11:57
I love ELP and lots of symphonic prog, but Karn Evil 9 is one of the most overrated prog songs IMO ------------- I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 12:09
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I think Warthur has the best angle on this of any of the posts so far. They were extravagant, and seemed to revel in it. Palmer had a stainless steel drum kit with dragons etched into it, that weighed 800 pounds and he toured with the monstrosity. As was already mentioned, Emerson had the giant Moog, and Lake had to have a real Persian rug under his feet in order to perform. They each had their own 18 wheeler for their gear, with their initial on the top (so if you flew over them as they went down the highway, you'd know it was ELP, I guess). "Over the top" seems like an understatement. On the other hand, they were my introduction to real prog rock (unless you count Rush, which I don't really, as they were late comers.........though I still consider them a prog band, just not one of the originators of the genre). Brain Salad Surgery was my first exposure, and I had heard absolutely nothing even remotely like it before. I still have a fondness for their music, but like others have mentioned, the "comedy" songs wore rather thin after a couple of years of hearing them. Still, their bombastic, over the top style of composing and playing is exactly what drew me to prog rock and is something I still love about the genre. |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 12:24
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Having given a quick listen to their debut album (their best one, at least in terms of consistency), I think another part of my problem with ELP is that their sound never *quite* managed to gel. In a way they made the right call in taking the Crosby, Stills and Nash route with their name - a lot of the time you're looking at three different musical personalities who all happen to be performing on the same stage/recording, not a cohesive unit. You'll have Keith's bit of showing off, then you'll have Greg's turn in the spotlight, then you'll have Carl doing his thing... it feels to me like the only song in which they all really come together and act as a unit is Tarkus. And, of course, that failure to find group cohesion was their undoing; Works was structured the way it was because everyone simply had to have a side to themselves, and Works was where the backlash began in earnest, and where the relations in the group really started to break down - Love Beach only creaked out because they wanted to knock off a quick contractual obligation album and then zoot off to their various post-ELP careers as soon as they possibly could.
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 20:21
I have to say, I'd be more disappointed if LaBrie left DT. I can't imagine the band without him. Portnoy was too controlling; and he was stifling the creativity of the music. I want to hear what they come up with next. Portnoy pushed them too far into the metallic sound on their recent albums. I like metal, but DT is not Opeth or Cannibal Corpse. Death metal vocals do not work in DT. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 24 2011 at 20:52
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ELP was one of the biggest, most popular acts in ROCK music from 1970-1974 not prog They rivaled Led Zeppelin, The Who, Deep Purple for the top spot. They sold the same amount of albums and sold out arenas the same size as these other bands on a regular basis and in fact headlined a concert that had 500,000 people there. If you are going to say they were pompous bombastic and extravagant then you must do so in context of these bands not Yes, Genesis ect. Quite honestly when you do you will find they were far calmer than the other bands. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 02:07
I don't mind vocals so much that it'd keep me off any band so my reaction would be neutral. But I'd be relieved that LaBrie won't be singing on those 'exclusive' CDs of tributes/covers and murdering rock/metal staples like Stargazer. In all fairness to LaBrie, Portnoy's work as also Rudess's did as much to drag down that cover as his singing. Only Petrucci came out unscathed and honour intact, as he usually does, and put up a nice new twist on the solo. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 02:09
Very pertinent comment, sir, and unlike those bands, ELP was rejected from rock lore by the critics and media and made an easy target of the punksters, which is why they are more unfavourably viewed. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 02:47
Interestingly Tarkus almost split the band up because Greg Lake perceived it as as Emerson solo peice. For me ELP's most complete album is Trilogy. Its feels a much more balanced effort and the soloing is kept to a minimum and when it does occur is not too overdone. Even the 'comedy track' The Sheriff seems to more acceptable to many.Not sure why this album gets so overlooked in the scheme of things. Works Volume One was the beginning of the end. Its well known that they wanted to release 3 solo albums but they were persuaded by Ahmet Ertegun (the founder and president of Atlantic records) to make it a group album. The tour with orchestra that followed proved to be too much to take on and was beset with all sorts of problems. That sunk them really. With hindsight they should have stopped at that point as the release of Works Vol 2,Love Beach and In Concert only did more damage to their reputations. That was the most regrettable thing imo.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 04:36
Wasn't there also a mutual hate between Led Zep and the press? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 04:38
| There may have been in the 70s, yes, but revisionism has been kind to the Zeps and Purples and harsh on ELP. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 05:01
| That's true, I thought you were referring exclusively to the 70s. ELP is still getting the bash. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 05:04
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ELP = the Lee Harvey Oswald of Prog
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 09:34
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 09:36
Now there's something really ridiculous. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 09:58
Er, not to ignite the same old debate, but regardless of whether Hancock is prog rock (and damned if I knew what the hell that was), Mwandishi-Crossings era Hancock is more progressive than a whole lot of artists that get called prog. And Headhunters/Thrust is just fusion. If people don't have any objection to RTF being on the database, what can the objection to Hancock possibly be? |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 10:01
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You need a sense of history, harmonium.ro.
To rogerthat, let me put it this way. There is a progressive genre and there is progressive music in the sense of breaking the mold and going in a different direction and there progressive music in the sense that some of the main characteristics of the genre are adopted and applied to a different type of music. People use the term prog in so many ways nowadays. But if you were loving The Yes Album when it was fresh and totally impressed by Foxtrot and devouring Fripp's work on the first two Crimson albums, then ELP struck right to your soul and Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Herbie Hancock et al didn't even scratch the itch. As I told harmonium.ro, a sense of history is needed here.
BTW, I don't really object to the presence of those bands here. I consider prog archives to be a source of information on all music that would interest prog fans, and the inclusion of those bands here to be positive in that sense.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 10:02
Teach us master. 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 10:08
Actually if YOU had a sense of history, you'd protesting Dream Theater much more than Hancock because the latter at least has some stylistic convergence with what was going on in the prog rock scene of the 70s, irrespective of whether people called it prog. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 10:14
Lol. Perhaps I have too much of a sense of history. I've never really taken the time to learn about Dream Theater.  -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 11:23
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Personally, I don't see how anyone watching a bombastic ELP concert in the early 70s could not enjoy it. The same could be said for over-the-top concert extravangas by Alice Cooper or Pink Floyd. For sheer entertainment value, they were absolutely enjoyable, and you certainly got your money's worth, ticket-wise.
The problem lay with ELP taking pretension one step too far: the bloated triple album Welcome Back My Friends to the Show that Never Ends (even the title was bloated), followed by Works, Vol. I (not a bad album really, but it would have been far better as a single group album rather than extended foray into solo endeavors) . This is the point where critics, and particularly New York critics like Robert Christgau or Dave Marsh from the Rolling Sone magazine, began savaging ELP and other prog acts. Neither Christgau nor Marsh ever liked prog acts (actually, if you look at their reviews, they despised them), and they wielded enough influence back then to affect other critics into voicing the same, tired opinions. Thus, ELP, Yes, Tull and other progressively-minded bands got increasingly harsher reviews by 1974 -75.
These critics had an axe to grind, and a decided preference in the mid-70s for prepunk or decidedly non-progressive bands like The New York Dolls, Bruce Springsteen, David Bowie, Roxie Music (they had big erections for Brian Eno) and the punk vanguard of The Ramones, Patti Smith and The Sex Pistols. The record industry played along, and there you have it: a completely contrived attack on a certain genre of music that continues to this day.
Don't believe me? These same critics and the publisher of Rolling Stone, Jann Wenner, control much of the voting process in the supposed Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. This is why such stellar and deserving progressive bands such as Yes, Tull, King Crimson, Rush and even The Moody Blues are not in the Hall, while such wastes of vinyl like the Bee Gees, Madonna and ABBA, or bands that had very little to do with rock at all, like Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, or Michael Jackson, are regularly inducted. Do you really think Genesis made it into the hall based on Peter Gabriel's years with the band? F*ck no. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 11:33
Agree with pretty much every word of that.  ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 12:03
As if the wide range of music under the Prog embrella can be summed up by just one band. I do agree ELP is the best example of Prog taken to its extreme of "not much content told in a zillion of notes". (Still like a good deal of their 70-72 material though) |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 12:52
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I don't like ELP and I've been into Prog since 1973. I was deluded, who knew?
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 12:58
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This is a great thread....after my initial post, I have listened to Tarkus, Brain Salad Surgery and ELP. The musicianship was so masterful...the lyrics still not so much, I really like what Bonnek says here:
As I grew up in So Cali I do so remember hearing tons of ELP on the FM radio both KMET and KLOS. I wonder if the bombastic was due to the fact they were a 3pc and tried to make up for that on stage by being so "big"! I never saw them live......but I just wonder. -------------
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Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 13:29
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The first 4/5 albums are amazing. And Black Moon isn't bad, but they released some very poor albums, like "In The Hot Seat". ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 14:30
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I've got no idea if it's the most disliked prog band, but it is the one I hate the most among the "classic prog" bands. ghost_of_morphy, you win 1 (one) Seal of Derp!
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 14:40
| Can we keep Shred Room stuff in the Shred Room please. |
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 14:43
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Oh, sorry for that. I guess a seal of derp appropriate for the whole forum would be out of question, would it?
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 15:02
| I think Tiger in the Spotlight is the only ELP song I ever play anymore. |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 15:04
That would be extremely appropriate. -------------  |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 15:05
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Used to love ELP but they've grown kind of old. Trilogy is still good I guess.
------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 15:59
The problem is that you have absolved Yes and Genesis from any wrong doing yet they released a couple of equally 'bloated' albums Tales From Topographic Oceans and Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.These were also targets of attack from critics. ELP can't really be blamed for igniting all the vitriol towards prog from the music press.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 16:05
I meant ELP were a convenient scapegoat for all the perceived excesses of the Prog giants (why do I have to explain this? )-------------
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 16:44
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BSS and Tarkus are mandatory prog albums. And the following epitomizes perfectly what prog is (an amalgamation of jazz, rock, and classical music) :
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 19:17
But Tony I know you would never deny they were an important and influential group in Progs development even to one of your favorite groups. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 22:41
Well, I would not and I do not like TFTO at all. With that said, I don't HATE either of Karn Evil or Welcome Back, so you'd be dialing the wrong number here in a prog forum. I don't see the problem with Lamb at all, it's a fantastic album with amazing diversity within the scope of one (double) album that neither of these bands could boast within the scope of a single release to my knowledge, very accessible songs by prog standards and a mastery of drama that Yes or ELP never so much as approached (again in the opinion of a partisan Genesis fan). I know the critics panned it and I know why they panned it (oooh, Gabriel is making so many mythological references, this is so boring LOLZ) but I don't see how it is any more bloated than either Quadrophenia or Wall. EDIT: I also don't see the comparison between Pink Floyd and ELP shows re Dark Elf's post unless Mason was trying to play like Palmer and Wright like Emerson in the early 70s. They used extravagant sound and lights, yes,but there was not much musical showboating in their shows from what I've gathered and they also put the thrust heavily on lyrics that people could relate to and, right or wrong, that makes a difference to critical perception. In that sense, the appropriate comparison is indeed with the shows of Purple, Zep or Who, which, in the revisionist view, are perceived as 'rawk' while 'wimpy' keyboards don't interest rock listeners no more. Now who's to say that Emerson and Lake could gang up and get really heavy too? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 22:48
That hardly means he likes it. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 25 2011 at 23:06
Actually, the critics didn't pan The Lamb LIes Down on Broadway - it recieved generally favorable reviews. But I will agree that Tales From the Topographic Ocean is certainly bloated and pretentious, and following the dense and obscurant Relayer, it certainly added flames to the bonfire. Yet I will say that the important critics of the time were predisposed to disliking Prog. Tull's A Passion Play was so savaged that Ian Anderson started a war with critics that lasted quite a long time (he even wrote the song "Solitaire" in reply to one critic) . ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: resurrection
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 02:03
| ELP do get a lot of unfair criticism considering they were one of the main players in bringing progressive rock to the masses. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 02:18
Of course but I was just sticking to the thread topic. Prog is misunderstood/underappreciated/derided by critics a fact that seems to be blamed on ELP's artic lorries but not Yes gaint mushrooms or Gabriels daft Slipperman costume (not to mention Anderson's cod peice ). I think its this - a lot of prog fans just don't like ELP so they become the most convenient target. Nothing to do with the real facts of the matter imo.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 03:16
No, it's simply that they were the most popular face of prog, as Garion81 put it. And also, this is subjective, but I think the other big prog rock bands just had a little bit more 'meat' in their music (making the live frills a bit easier to ignore) and with ELP you really had to pay attention to Emerson's parts followed by Palmer's and so on to appreciate it. As I said earlier, I am not concerned so much with showboating in the sense of wearing costumes or sound and light shows but showboating in the sense of playing long and redundant solos is dicey. Sometimes, it makes you God, like Led Zeppelin, and sometimes it can earn you notoriety like ELP and it's not necessary that in either case, the perception would reflect how well or not the band executed it. |
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 04:54
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I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 05:11
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target. Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos  ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:17
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:39
| ^ |
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 16:16
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:05
That is only an impartial judgment. It still is not and cannot be an objective quality analysis because the worth of music is derived from extremely intangible factors which cannot be quantitatively qualified, hence it is not objective. And this is where the problem starts. People start to presume that critical opinion necessarily stems from dislike and is not an impartial judgment. Now, I have listened to and enjoyed ELP's classic albums over and over but if I am asked what could possibly be the reasons why they are so maligned, I am impartial enough to make a comparison with other prog rock bands and identify where, according to me, did they differ. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that or possibly you have misunderstood the premise of this thread. |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:25
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ELP played more classical covers, and their own tunes often sounded a lot like classical music. I always thought that is what isolated them from the other major prog bands. It's true that other lesser prog bands played classical covers, but people usually don't pick on the smaller acts. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:52
The problem is that any analysis of music has to be based on deep engagement with the piece, and thus unlike in other matters like inquiry into nature, objectivity cannot be gained through detachment. Detached listening cannot grasp music because it will appear as mere sound. If one listens to a piece in a disengaged or detached way the piece of music is just sound, nothing more. I am not denying that objectivity in analysis is not possible, but rather I am saying that it is difficult to conceptualize how objective analysis of music is possible. For to judge music one has to be engaged with that piece of music, and engaged judgment cannot simply analyse a piece of music based on abstract criteria, but rather must try to comprehend the piece holistically. But this comprehending requires a deeply particularized involvement with the music and thus cannot be reduced or made into a set of rules for judging music. |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: June 26 2011 at 22:48
I know he doesn't I was teasing him. Me and Reed Lover go way back. -------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 01:59
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity. It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 02:29
Reductio ad absurdium strikes again. There are, needless to say, such things as objectivity but it is very difficult to apply objective standpoints of judgment to MUSIC. As far as I know, the only thing that is objective in music is what notes are being played. Even technicality, which musicians often claim to be objective, is not necessarily an objective judgment at all. We are only making observations on what we hear of the musicians on record but it is not necessary a musician will always stretch himself to the limits of his technical facility on every song or piece of music of his.
Impartiality the way I understand it in the context of music appreciation is simply to be able to recognize flaws of something we enjoy or merits of something we don't. I love Gentle Giant's music but I recognize that in terms of emotional resonance, they are not the best. That is the kind of impartiality I am urging here. Fans cannot claim their sentiments are hurt by each and everything said about 'their' band, they should try to understand where the other person is coming from and whether he has a point.
And I put it to you that you are only attempting to infer here that people are unable to stand apart from their whims. You don't and cannot possibly know it to a certainty. Cut all the beating around the bush, what you are trying to say in a nutshell is ELP are one of the most influential prog rock bands so we should think twice, thrice before expressing a critical view of them. I disagree with that, I am sorry but there are no holy cows in music and especially not in rock. My views on the band are carefully considered and hopefully so are those of others commenting on this thread. Take it on its own terms or leave it.
Of course, it does, starting with that you haven't even defined what your objective quality analysis is all about. What are your parameters of objective quality analysis of music (and how can you possibly have one set of rules for all music appreciation is beyond me)? I'd have to first see if I agree with your chosen criteria and then also with the weights or score given by you in each. Urging people to analyse quality objectively without defining how such is analysed in music at least according to you is going nowhere. By the way, just for kicks I once tried to make an excel chart, scoring bands for compositional talent. It is almost impossible to make it a comprehensive AND completely objective exercise.
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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:27
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. We both choose to see it different ways. That’s fine. I find your statements about your own impartiality and objectivity unconvincing, but it’s your right to state them and my right to disagree. Equally, I don’t much care if you agree or disagree with the parameters I choose or the definitions I use. Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise.
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:53
Sorry, I don't see the difference between subjectivity and objectivity as semantic. By emphasising the importance of impartiality, I am on the other hand distinguishing between subjectivity and bias/prejudice. Every subjective opinion is not necessarily biased or prejudicial which is what you seem to be driving at in the next para. A subjective opinion is based on impressions and perceptions but it is important that they be consistent with the person's general perceptions of music. "Objective within a subjective viewpoint" in other words.
Eh? Any qualitiative statement about a band is an opinion. It does not become fact merely because the person omitted to say "in my opinion" because, in my opinion
,it should not even be necessary to say so expressly each and every time. The only objective element of music is the notes and sounds and what we make it is, by implication, heavily dependent on our perceptions of music. The sooner listeners learn to live with this reality, the better.
In that case, please state what is it that you find it to be a biased and unfair criticism of ELP instead of firing a general dart at Prog rock Inc. Otherwise, your argument would bound to be perceived as a holy cow syndrome.
So you prefer it remains a nebulous "objective" analysis that no one knows about? I am really asking you this out of curiosity because I have never seen anybody successfully argue for how the quality of a piece of music could be objectively determined. Please consider that it is not objective unless everybody agrees with the judgment. If I signed on a dotted line, I am bound by contractual obligation to perform certain acts as per the fine print and such obligation can be enforced in court. THAT is objective. Merely you satisfying yourself that you conducted the analysis without prejudice in your perception is not enough to call it objective.
That could only be if you apply limited and inaccurate parameters. And even the weightage of parameters moves depending on the music. Take an element like dynamics. It is far more important in jazz than in heavy rock. You obviously then can't assign marks based on the level of dynamics in the same manner for a jazz group and a heavy rock band. So you'd have to get into what level of dynamics qualitatively is desirable in heavy rock. And so on...there's no end to how much you can drill down the details and find small but significant aspects to weigh...if you choose to do an objective quality analysis.
So, I repeat, what is the basis for that belief? And balanced view from whom, general rock music crowd or prog rock fans? Why? Without these clarifications to such a statement, it is a shot in the dark.
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Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:08
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:13
Aside from all, Love Beach the album is not as bad as the artwork and is not the worst example of a prog rock band gone astray either.
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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 06:39
There would not even be a Prog archives without a band like ELP, who, along with King Crimson and Yes, define the genre more than anyone. A balanced view from everyone and anyone who comments. It’s not a shot in the dark if you stop switching off and on the lights. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:07
Yeah, right, meaningful discussion by artificially imposing objectivity in a parameter where objective judement is not practicable? It is unfortunate that you choose to browbeat it as semantics because it is very relevant. If you suggest that people should apply objective quality analysis, you have to define what that means (or, alternatively, not assume that people are not doing so). If it is indeed an objective exercise, it should not be very difficult to establish so your reluctance to do is quite baffling.
You cannot expect what I stated above with respect to opinions to be explained to you everytime merely because it is not your perception.
 The reality is that people express opinions about bands with absolutely no intention of passing it for fact and you should not have to strive hard to take cognizance of said reality. So, your allegation then is without basis.
If you propose that objective quality analysis should be done with respect to ELP (with the implicit suggestion that because this is not done so, they get a bad rap), you must establish how an objective analysis would accrue more respect to them and less harsh opinions...possibly by doing an analysis of your own and putting forth the results. Otherwise, you are getting nowhere with what you have suggested.
Influence does not equate or approximate indispensability. It is not necessary that bands influenced by ELP would do EVERYTHING that they did and should therefore attract the same criticisms. Besides, it's prog rock, so bands do diverge heavily even from their chief influences. Not as if it's thrash metal where bashing Metallica soundlly and heaping superlatives on Testament would make no sense. Which is not even the case with ELP as the average ratings on PA bear out. A Tarkus just doesn't have such a high rating as Red or SEBTP. I don't see that by dint of being one of the important prog rock bands alone, they earn that.
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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:23
They have earned the right to be taken seriously, especially by people who wouldn’t even have a forum in the first place but for their influence. I never at any time suggested it made them immune to criticism or indispensible in some way. You’re making mountains out of molehills for the sake of it. I think it’s best to leave this matter there, as we are never going to agree, it’s becoming boring for us, never mind everyone else, and in any case, I don’t see what any of this has to do with the price of fish. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:41
Ah, a subjective objectivity, this gets even better! Never have I seen a more evasive defence of objectivity in music.
I'll be pointed and ask you where on this thread do you see evidence of that with regard to ELP. I have only asked you repeatedly to make pointed replies instead of firing blank darts through sweeping generalizations. Resorting to such rhetoric to wriggle out of it is not highly impressive.
And on what grounds do you feel that they are not taken seriously in a prog forum (which is a serious statement to make, by the way)? People generally dock the fifth star on the grounds that their albums have too many non essential songs. Irrespective of whether I agree with such an opinion, it is a valid reason to offer. There are some people who call them w**kers but then there are those who call Wetton-KC noise too. That does not reflect the view of progheads in general.
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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: June 27 2011 at 07:46
| Nothing you've said is convincing to me either. My views are almost diametrically opposed to yours, I disagree with almost everything you've said in your last post and many of the posts before that. We could argue till doomsday and we'd never agree. On that basis, I already said we should leave it where it is, as going further will only lead us into trouble with the prog authorities. |