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Miles Davis - Kind of Blue

Printed From: Progarchives.com
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Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80748
Printed Date: December 27 2014 at 15:38
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Topic: Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
Posted By: fcoulter
Subject: Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 05:12
The album, one of the Prog Archives top 100 albums, is on sale as an mp3 download from Amazon. It's the daily $5 album on the android app today, but the price may be good a little longer.

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Fredrik V Coulter



Replies:
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:28

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.



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http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:26
wrong section.

Yes I don't like that it's in the top 100, but at the same time, I dont care. I'm pretty sure people can or have figured it out.

Nothing wrong with a prog fan possibly checking it out after seeing it in the list. It could be the reason that person starts getting into jazz and fusion, and it'd be all thanks to the PA top 100 albums list


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:30
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to  http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/  this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván


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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:54
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.



Agreed. Miles' music was indisputably essential to the foundation of Jazz-Rock, but while Kind of Blue remains my favourite album by him, it doesn't really have a place on this website.

But then how do you draw that line? I mean Kind of Blue is pretty clear cut. But then, if even though Miles has some prog albums, the rest of his albums get removed for being Not Prog (well I mean they're progressive but they're not rock, which is what this site is devoted to), what implications does that have? Do we axe Invisible Touch? 90125? Some say recent Dream Theater albums aren't "prog," do we get rid of those too?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm totally in favour of cleaning up the site here. But I'm saying that there needs to be a system worked out to accomplish it, and that regardless of what happens there'll be some significant resistance. It may possibly be that despite the current system's flaws, leaving things as they are will keep the most people happy.


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 14:56
The dividing line is the album Miles In The Sky

anything before has absolutely no rock influence whatsoever.


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:41
I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:47
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

Iván


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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:50

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



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http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

Iván
 
I know, I know.  Robert Johnson anyone?  But at least The Beatles had a few proggers in them in the later years.  As did Miles.  So I'm good with that given the acceptance criteria here is that once a band has a prog album the entire discography is included.  I don't care.  If Chuck Berry had made a version of Pictures At An Exhibition then yes, open the door, let him in.  I would, actually, like to hear a Berry version of Nutrocker.LOL


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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 15:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

   Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  .

Then lets add Chubby Checker, Elvis  and Chuck Berry, they have more influence in Progressive ROCK than "A Kind of Blue", and if we want to go back, then add Mussorgsky, Bach, etc.

There's a limit I believe.

Iván


Might as well add James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, and Karlheinz Stockhausen to this site, as that's who was influencing Miles Davis during the making of his late-60s and 70s albums.

Jazz had just as much influence on the development of 70s prog as The 50s and 60s rock idols did. The fact that prog rock and jazz-fusion started essentially at the time is no coincidence. You can't tell me 21st Century Schizoid Man doesn't have any jazz influence. However, there is no reason to start adding jazz artists with no fusion albums, or rock artists that didn't make some proggy albums.

The thing is Miles eventually started developing rock mixed with jazz (and eventually funk), which led to all sorts of development in jazz, rock, prog, etc. and actually made these progressive albums after 1967, whereas AFAIK, Elvis and all of them did not make eventually start making prog/fusion albums.


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:02
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



Yes. One has to wonder why so many members of this site gave out 5 star ratings for a Cool Jazz album on a Prog Rock site....




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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: Sheavy
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:04
What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.

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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:08

A newbie comes here to politely tell us about an Amazon bargain....... and inadvertently creates a hot prog debate.

He should definitely be promoted to Senior Member!



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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:11
Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.


But not really. People who gave 5 stars to the album pretty much go against the guidelines for giving out a 5 star rating to an album. It's for albums that the reviewer feels is a masterpiece of Progressive Rock. Whether it was highly influential to the development of the genre is irregardless. It has nothing to do with the fact that he did eventually make some highly progressive jazz-fusion. Now if In A Silent Way or Bitches Brew were in the top 100, it'd be a different story.


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 16:59
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.


But not really. People who gave 5 stars to the album pretty much go against the guidelines for giving out a 5 star rating to an album. It's for albums that the reviewer feels is a masterpiece of Progressive Rock. Whether it was highly influential to the development of the genre is irregardless. It has nothing to do with the fact that he did eventually make some highly progressive jazz-fusion. Now if In A Silent Way or Bitches Brew were in the top 100, it'd be a different story.


That's why I've avoided rating it. It's a five-star album in the traditional sense, but it doesn't really match PA's criteria of what deserves 5 stars, and having it in the top 100 is a little misleading.


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 17:29
Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.

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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 17:45
I don't remember if I rated it here or not, but if I did, I would give it 4 stars, because it IS an excellent addition to a prog collection. On jazzmusicarchives.com, I gave it 5 stars of course.

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 18:26
I don't feel bad at all for giving Kind of Blue five stars here.

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http://www.last.fm/user/I_am_A_Person" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 21:09
Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

What does it matter?  So it is not Prog but that fact that he went on to make true Prog albums justifies it being in the top hundred.

Simple...How can a non Prog album be considered one of the 100 best PROG albums?

It's misleading

I don't deny he influenced Prog with Bitches Brew, but IMO he never was a prog artist, so it's OK to have him in PA, but in this case only from a determined point in history..

Iván


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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 27 2011 at 23:22
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.
 
Join the club Phil Big smile


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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 17:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to  http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/  this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván

Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 


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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:31
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

I think I've mentioned this before, but the album being in our top 100 is a perfect example of how our rating and categorising system is flawed here on PA.

Don't get me wrong, it's a jazz classic....... but it has about as much relevance on this site as the early Beatles albums.

And the CD of Kind of Blue is always cheap on Amazon. I think I paid about £3 for it.


There was no Prog or Proto Prog or Psychedelia, not even Rock based Pop in 1958, as a fact even Blues based Rock was on diapers.

It's absolutely misleading to have that album in Prog Archives, not to mention the top 100.

No matter how good it is, send it to  http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/  this is a Progressive Rock site.

Iván


Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 

 

I admit to not being an expert in the top 100 especially with the bottom bits changing somewhat often, but I'm pretty confident that KOB is the only purejazz album in it yes. (Unless another Davis album [ or Hancock album, or etc] snuck in there when I wasn't looking.) However, If there is another, I would object to that as well.



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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:32
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Wow. And I thought I was the only one who felt KOB in the top 100 is absolutely inane! Glad to see I'm not.
 
Join the club Phil Big smile
 
 
Thumbs Up


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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.


Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 18:47
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

I would say both Kind of Blue and early Beatles albums absolutely belong here (given that the site, once accepting an artist, accepts all albums).  Nah, they're not prog, but just where do you think prog came from?  Agreed, Miles is better served on jazzarchives, but I'd argue much of Mile's later output is purely progressive.

You must admit though, that when it is in the TOP 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK ALBUMS, things are getting a bit silly. It's less of an issue if the album is hiding in some quiet corner of the site.

I appreciate though, that's it's difficult to come up with a system that further categorises what is already the hardest thing to categorise: art.



Yes. One has to wonder why so many members of this site gave out 5 star ratings for a Cool Jazz album on a Prog Rock site....



I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...


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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not?


people looking for some of the best jazz-rock/fusion albums


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:22
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not?


people looking for some of the best jazz-rock/fusion albums

So they can't just ignore one album from the list? Confused Are they too lazy to read any of the reviews that describe it as a cool jazz album?  


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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime


Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:48
Argh, we're seriously arguing about this again?

I care about a lot of things that nobody else does, but I really don't understand caring about this.


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if you own a sodastream i hate you


Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:55
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Argh, we're seriously arguing about this again?

I care about a lot of things that nobody else does, but I really don't understand caring about this.

I don't care about whether or not Kind of Blue (or anything, for that matter) is in the top 100 list. I care about other people getting pissed off about Kind of Blue being in the top 100. Tongue


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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


Yeah, big oversight on our part not to have that album on jazzmusicarchives, oh wait...Tongue
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/miles-davis--kind-of-blue.aspx
Perhaps the best thing to do is just ignore albums you don't think belong in the top 100 that are there.  By the way is Kind Of Blue the only jazz album in it? 

Not the only one...But it''s a NON PROG album from 1958 (When not even Pop based Rock or Psychedelia where Born), released at least 9 years before Prog was born...Do you believe this is one of the Best 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK albums in History?

I agree that Bitches Brew is RELATED to a Prog site, but it's misleading to have a 1958 album as one of the best Prog albums ever...Please, Prog didn't remotely existed when Kind of Blue was released.

Do I believe Miles belong here? Not sure, but OK, Bitches Brew is important for evolution of Prog and Fusion, but we need some mechanism that stops albums that don't have the slightest relation with Prog to be considered one of the best Prog albums.

Iván.

Starti; Normally after protesting before added, I ignore albums that shouldn't be here (At least in my opinion), but having a 1958 non Prog album is a huge incoherence, that I believe can't be ignored.

Just beware, Miles has a 1945 album with no ratings yet, but also a 1954 album (Rock wasn't fully born yet) that is getting close to 4 stars Ouch






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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:15
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván


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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván

The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

Every album I review on PA is assessed based on the quality and emotional depth of the music - prog or not. People have different interpretations of what "prog" actually means, so I stay away from rating albums based on their progressive values. If there's a jazz, metal, ambient, folk, or whatever-other-genre masterpiece on this site, I'll rate it honestly. After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm


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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 22:52
Quote The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

A Kind of Blue is a great album, maybe a masterpiece, I DON'T DENY THAT

But our rules are clear:

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

To be rated with 5 stars in Prog Archives needs three inclusive conditions:

  1. Being Essential
  2. Being a masterpiece
  3. To be Progressive Rock
A Kind of Blue don't fulfills at least one of the three requisites, it may be a masterpiece, but will never be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock Music.

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

  After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

Please don't change the issue, The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven is a masterpiece,.but doesn't belong here.

Rubén Blades album "Maestra Vida" is better than 90% of the albums here, but it shouldn't be in Prog Archives because it's some sort of Classic Salsa.

Kind of Blue is an excellent album, but doesn't belong here for millions of reasons, but most important, because Prog Archives has been created to be PROGRESSIVE ROCK STE and to help visitors understand the genre, visitors that will be mislead watching a Prog album from 1958.

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm

There are lots of Jazz albums here and nobody  is offended, as a fact I added Jean Luc Ponty, but Ponty has made Jazz that is related with Prog, I added OSIBISA who are now in Jazz Rock Fusion..I inherited a huge Jazz collection, I believe both are underrated

Tohpari Etnomission from Indonesia is a FANTASTIC Jazz Fusion band that deserves to be a Top 20 even in a PROG site, because they are more than related .

You can think whatever you want about progressive meanings, but the site banner clearly says  it: THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

JThis includes azz Rock fusion, even influential pure Jazz from the 70's or maybe late 60's may belong here, but A Kind of Blues belongs here as much as Louis Armstrong or Aretha Franklin belong here..It's Pure Jazz with no Fusion and much less related with Progressive Rock.

Iván


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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: August 30 2011 at 23:49
Many good points made. Kind of Blue has nothing to do with progressive rock music, or rock music in general. I am also not saying it is a masterpiece (It is). Think about someone who is trying to have the ultimate collection of prog albums; KoB is not going to be necessary in that quest.

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 02:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


A Kind of Blue is a great album, maybe a masterpiece, I DON'T DENY THAT

But our rules are clear:

 Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

To be rated with 5 stars in Prog Archives needs three inclusive conditions:

  1. Being Essential
  2. Being a masterpiece
  3. To be Progressive Rock
A Kind of Blue don't fulfills at least one of the three requisites, it may be a masterpiece, but will never be a masterpiece of Progressive Rock Music.


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.

(personally I wouldn't give KOB a fivestar, though. There's atleast fifteen-twenty Miles albums that thrills me more. I think of it as jazz' own Citizen Kane. As in being extremely influential but not the most exiting thing ever to actually sit down and watch/listen to. Not anymore).


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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 05:08
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

I'd give Kind of Blue 5 stars on this site in a heartbeat. Who gives a damn if it's prog or not? I still recommend the album just as much regardless...

I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE.

In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:

Progarchives.com Homepage

A site dedicated to Prog Rock.

Iván

The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece.

Every album I review on PA is assessed based on the quality and emotional depth of the music - prog or not. People have different interpretations of what "prog" actually means, so I stay away from rating albums based on their progressive values. If there's a jazz, metal, ambient, folk, or whatever-other-genre masterpiece on this site, I'll rate it honestly. After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality?

I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100. Ermm

No one is saying they're offended J-Man. People are just pointing out the ridiculousness of that album being in that list. I gave it four stars because I too review things regardless of what genre they are...... yes, it's a masterpiece to a lot of people. It will never be a masterpiece of progressive rock though. Not because prog is better than jazz, but because you just can't be a masterpiece of a genre when the music has f**k all to do with that genre.

It's like saying that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the best Romantic Comedy film ever.

I'm not possessive of the top 100.......... but as I member of this site, I think it makes us look foolish when passers by see albums like that in the list. The system is flawed, not the people giving it those high reviews.



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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:13
Well, the problem here is basically the algorithm isn't it?  The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist.  Then albums like KOB could be excluded from the top 100 list, but then there's the problem of what gets excluded and what gets let in, which I'm sure we could all reach consensus on, right??? LOL

But wow, made it up to #56.  Consider it an honorary member.  Move on.




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Posted By: JonnyM79
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:20
I have no problem with it being here. 

  Firstly it has the same shot at being in the top 100 as Love Beach, early Talk-Talk or countless other albums that are not prog but made by artists that at some other time in their careers made prog.  The difference is that its quality is so transcending of genre that even though it is not prog-rock, a site of people devoted to that genre still rate it so highly that it hits the list.  I find it hard to imagine that anybody who buys it through seeing it on this site will think "well that's a pile'o'sh*te - sounds nothing like Wish You Were Here"

  Secondly anybody exploring Jazz/Fusion pretty  much has to listen to it.  It's so influential that trying to understand any form of Jazz without listening to this (and that includes our beloved Fusion genre) is a bit like trying to understand rock or pop without listening to The Beatles.

  Thirdly asking reviewers to rate based on how stricltly music conforms to the prog-rock genre (by suggesting you remove stars from this album for not being "prog-rock" enough) would penalise the unusual and innovative - exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.  Most people rate purely on quality and enjoyment, and rightly so.  I haven't rated KOB but if I ever do it's a nailed on 5 stars.


Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 10:39
 
Originally posted by JonnyM79 JonnyM79 wrote:




  Thirdly asking reviewers to rate based on how stricltly music conforms to the prog-rock genre (by suggesting you remove stars from this album for not being "prog-rock" enough) would penalise the unusual and innovative - exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.  Most people rate purely on quality and enjoyment, and rightly so.  I haven't rated KOB but if I ever do it's a nailed on 5 stars.

Who is asking that?? Nobody! We're saying that (yes, Slarti) the algorithm is flawed, the system, the website, not the reviewers.

Yeah, it's difficult agreeing on where to draw the line between an album that is prog enough to belong here or unrelated enough not to...... but there's difficult and then there's blindingly obvious. Nobody would call KOB a progressive rock album, whether it deserves 5 stars or 1 star. It is not even describable as fusion, which itself can have only passing resemblances to rock. But passing resemblances are justified here, for the sake of not having hundreds of music aficionados arguing about it. Kind of Blue on the other hand, does not need arguing about. Only a deaf person could possibly call it the 56th or whatever best progressive rock album in the world.

All we're actually discussing on this thread is whether we care or not. And given that it's an easy enough thing to ammend, I don't see why people are choosing to leave it in there. If it was removed from the list, would anybody actually complain? Hardly.

Sure enough, albums like Rubber Soul are more complex, and it would require a hell of a lot of arguing to determine whether they belong on this site or not....... so it is easier to leave them in. But Kind of Blue (along with The Magnificent Moodies, Takin' Off, Please Please Me et al...) are so obviously out of place that we can surely bump them off without any arguments?



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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:13
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.


I agree, as a fact we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog, but I rated The Grand Illusion (STYX) with 5 stars because the album deserves that rating.

But there should be a way to:

  1. In special cases like Miles Davis not to include all their production or
  2. Allow people to rate the album with the rating they believe the album deserves, but don't allow it to reach the top 100.

Believe it's ridiculous to tell people proudly "This are the best Prog albums" and have in the list an album that not only isn't Prog, but that it's IMPOSSIBLE to classify as Prog due to the date of release.

Iván 


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Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:39
Without getting into the ins and outs of genre... I'm presuming that the reviewers here all like/ love 'prog' and that therefore their opinions might be shared by others interested in discovering great music that people of (potentially) similar taste rate very highly?

It depends what you think the list is for..
100 albums that 'people who like prog rate very highly' or 100 albums that are prog..
given the broad definition of prog I think any attempt to exclude is going to fall foul.

Simple solution would perhaps be to tag definitively non prog albums so they don't show up on the top 100 list?
Some exclusions though will be obvious while others may be controversial.


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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:53
I gave Kind Of Blue a four because a four star is "Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection".  Doesn't say that it actually has to be prog rock. LOL


Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:38
Originally posted by JonnyM79 JonnyM79 wrote:

]  Secondly anybody exploring Jazz/Fusion pretty  much has to listen to it.  It's so influential that trying to understand any form of Jazz without listening to this (and that includes our beloved Fusion genre) is a bit like trying to understand rock or pop without listening to The Beatles.


Louis Armstrong's  Black Chicago from 1929 is far more transcendental  for Jazz  and Fusion than Kind of Blue, but nobody sane will add it here.

Iván


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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 13:59
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.


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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 15:05
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.

Particularly with your rather massive collection, if that's it in your signature!



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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 15:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog.  The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. 



Sounds great.  Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here.
Could was the operative word there. Wink
Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system.  Really too late to change it.


I still don't think it would have been that tractable, even if it had existed from the beginning - genre teams having to deal on an album-by-album basis would explode the already considerable workload that exists.

The system as-is has unfortunate consequences such as the current topic that I think will just have to be tolerated.


Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 17:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:


I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock.


I agree, as a fact we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog, but I rated The Grand Illusion (STYX) with 5 stars because the album deserves that rating.

But there should be a way to:

  1. In special cases like Miles Davis not to include all their production or
  2. Allow people to rate the album with the rating they believe the album deserves, but don't allow it to reach the top 100.

Believe it's ridiculous to tell people proudly "This are the best Prog albums" and have in the list an album that not only isn't Prog, but that it's IMPOSSIBLE to classify as Prog due to the date of release.

Iván 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused


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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:04
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused

Please, read my post.

After reading the guidelines

Quote  Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

I said: that in Prog Archives: "we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog""

This doesn't mean there aren't Prog Related masterpieces, it only means that a non Prog album can't be a Prog masterpiece.

You understand what you want to understand.

Distorting what other members say, won't make your position right.

Iván

BTW: I said it in my "A Night at the Opera" review:

Quote I would love top rate "A Night at the Opera" with 5 stars but there are some small flaws and according to the interpretation of the guidelines, no Prog Related album should be rated with the maximum, 

And was even more clear in one of my all toime favorite albums "Who's Next":

Quote Now with great pain I have to rate the album, and I will do it according to the guidelines. No way I can give 5 stars because "Who's Next" is not a masterpiece of Prog, neither an excellent addition for a PROG collection, to be honest you may have the perfect Prog collection and this masterpiece of Rock doesn't need to be there, so I will have to make an injustice and considered it good but not essential album, because in a Prog context this description is the one that fits better.

In a Classic Rock or general music site I will give the maximum rating without hesitation, no matter if it's 5, 10 or 20, maybe even an extra one, but in a Prog site my hands are tied, if it had even the slightest Prog relation I would go with 4 stars but that's not the case, so I will go with 3 stars, not without feeling a traitor to one of my all time favorite bands


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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:18
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

So there is NO such thing as a prog related masterpiece in your opinion? (aside from The Grand Illusion) Confused

Please, read my post.

After reading the guidelines

Quote  Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

I said: that in Prog Archives: "we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog""

This doesn't mean there aren't Prog Related masterpieces, it only means that a non Prog album can't be a Prog masterpiece.

You understand what you want to understand.

Distorting what other members say, won't make your position right.

Iván

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?


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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:24
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?

That was changed after I wrote my reviews, probably after a thread in which the issue was discussed.

You are the one that are changing what others say, not me.

Iván

PD: To be honest, didn't even knew it had been changed.


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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: August 31 2011 at 19:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

 

Ivan, you are DEAD WRONG. Actually read the prog-related guidelines before spewing this crap:

 Essential: a masterpiece of rock music
 Excellent addition to any rock music collection

It's NOT by the same standards that we hold a progressive rock album accountable for!!!

Can you cut the courtroom debate tactics too please?

That was changed after I wrote my reviews.

You are the one that are changing what others say, not me.

Iván

*facepalm*

I never claimed that you were changing what others say, and I never did it either! But it doesn't matter anyway... thanks again for reminding me why I never participate in this forum anymore. I'm done.


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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: September 01 2011 at 00:49
^ Thats technically irrelevant as KOB is in a full fledged prog sub with the "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music" explanation of five stars. [The prog related issue is another thread altogether (one I think most people agree nothing will be done with).]

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Posted By: Lark the Starless
Date Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I gave Kind Of Blue a four because a four star is "Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection".  Doesn't say that it actually has to be prog rock. LOL
 
lolz at this thread

Just rate it 4 stars or less. Technically, Slarti is right. By rating it 5 stars, one is asserting it is prog, when it isn't.

By rating it 4 stars or less (because THIS IS A PROG SITE, YOU KNOW?!?!, in the words of esteemed member , Ivan), it'll be off the top 100 and people will stop b****ing about it.

I honestly don't mind it being there but people get all touchy and well you know...Cool


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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:26

It looks like nothing's going to change. If the site admin want to do something about it, which they probably don't, cause it's a hell of a lot of work, then great. Whether they do or not, I don't think anything more can be said or argued about this album.

/thread.



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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 01 2011 at 12:29
It´s all progressive anyhow isn´t it ? Just not rock - in a couple of years time, maybe we´ll see my generation (29-30) putting an album like Dead Can Dance - Within The Realm of a Dying Sun to the top. It´s a masterpiece in its own right and widely acknowledged like such all over the world. People just tend to call them Dark Wave instead of progressive folkWink
I don´t care, if I´m honest. Music is music, and if you wanna start breaking walls down and throw around chairs about this issue, then I agree that it is a problem that needs to be fixed. Otherwise, I´m perfectly fine with it. I don´t use this site as a competition between the bands, although I´ll vote for stuff in the polls - but that´s just a gas right?


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Posted By: Riuku
Date Posted: April 08 2012 at 01:28
This release was progressive in terms of the artist's career, no? Long songs, soloing, I believe there's a time signature here, a whole bunch of atmosphere, some experimentation? That's prog, ain't it? I woulnd't hesitate to give it 5 stars and it is one of my favorite albums ever. I agree that maybe it's not a masterpiece of prog rock but then why aren't we complaining about Opeth and Dream Theater and Tool? They're not prog rock, they're prog metal. So let's get them off the list too.

I believe the album may not be a masterpiece of prog ROCK, but I think this site has know acknowledged that prog is not so much rock but rather musicians breaking boundaries, using polyrhythms, lyrical concepts, strange chords, unique sounds, and extended songs to do so. Anything goes and that is absolutely beautiful, and I think Miles Davis knew that when he recorded KoB and of course he knew that with In a Silent Way. That said, it's not a masterpiece of prog ROCk but a masterpiece of progressive music, and if not that then it definitely is an essential for anyone's collection.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 08 2012 at 01:51
It's a full discography policy issue, but if this site was about great progressive jazz albums of 1959, I think I might go with Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come. 
Some really great jazz album that year, Colemans SoJtC, Mingus Ah Um, Coltrane's Giant Steps, all of which I much prefer to Kind of Blue.  Then there's Brubeck's Time Out.


I love various pre electric Davis albums and like Kind of Blue, but don't "get" the big love it gets.  I'd be happy to see the electric Miles Davis studio albums Get Up With It and Big Fun in the PA top ten.

It's never struck me as that progressive a jazz album for its time when compared to others... 


Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 08:12
I have refused to review Kind of Blue for exactly this reason.
 
Once again it shows that this site needs to go to system at MMA and JMA where genres go by album and not by artist. I know it would take some tech work, but there are many artists here who have albums in very different categories.
 
Ulver has a prog folk album, several extreme metal albums, electronic, and possible a few in post rock which is ironically where they're categorized.
 
Kind of Blue should be here, as Prog Related, and therefore not eligible for the top 100.
 
Just my two cents.


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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 08:33
It does not belong in prog related nor in this site. It is a pure jazz release, nothing to do with rock music or anything else.
Later albums does belong in jazz rock category, and that's the reason he is really included here.


Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 08:43
Kind of Blue in top 100 and yet  The Sensational Alex Harvey Band  not even in the archives go figure Wacko

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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 09:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

It's a full discography policy issue, but if this site was about great progressive jazz albums of 1959, I think I might go with Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come. 
Some really great jazz album that year, Colemans SoJtC, Mingus Ah Um, Coltrane's Giant Steps, all of which I much prefer to Kind of Blue.  Then there's Brubeck's Time Out.
 

Its funny that one of the most legendary albums of 1959 Giant Steps wasn't released until 1960. But of course its still an essential part of the radical change in jazz at the very end of the 1950's. The highly uninfluential, mostly unradical Gong's East by Chico Hamilton Quintet (featuring a young Eric Dolphy at his best) is my personal favorite of that year. 

Ah-Um is great, but to my ears Tijuana Moods from 1957 is even more progressive, complex and fun. A real relevation of sorts.

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 
I love various pre electric Davis albums and like Kind of Blue, but don't "get" the big love it gets.  I'd be happy to see the electric Miles Davis studio albums Get Up With It and Big Fun in the PA top ten.

It's never struck me as that progressive a jazz album for its time when compared to others... 

Kind of Blue is not sonically radical but its that modal jazz approach that gives it its innovative reputation, isn't it? KOB popularity has obviously nothing to do with any of that, but because its also very pleasant and easy on the ears. I never actually feel like listening to it myself, just respect it as an album that influenced many later masterpieces... and among them many that really do thrill me. 


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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 15:52
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

It's a full discography policy issue, but if this site was about great progressive jazz albums of 1959, I think I might go with Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come. 
Some really great jazz album that year, Colemans SoJtC, Mingus Ah Um, Coltrane's Giant Steps, all of which I much prefer to Kind of Blue.  Then there's Brubeck's Time Out.
 

Its funny that one of the most legendary albums of 1959 Giant Steps wasn't released until 1960. But of course its still an essential part of the radical change in jazz at the very end of the 1950's. The highly uninfluential, mostly unradical Gong's East by Chico Hamilton Quintet (featuring a young Eric Dolphy at his best) is my personal favorite of that year. 

Ah-Um is great, but to my ears Tijuana Moods from 1957 is even more progressive, complex and fun. A real relevation of sorts.

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 
I love various pre electric Davis albums and like Kind of Blue, but don't "get" the big love it gets.  I'd be happy to see the electric Miles Davis studio albums Get Up With It and Big Fun in the PA top ten.

It's never struck me as that progressive a jazz album for its time when compared to others... 

Kind of Blue is not sonically radical but its that modal jazz approach that gives it its innovative reputation, isn't it? KOB popularity has obviously nothing to do with any of that, but because its also very pleasant and easy on the ears. I never actually feel like listening to it myself, just respect it as an album that influenced many later masterpieces... and among them many that really do thrill me. 


You're right, excellent point, and I should of thought of that (not because I'm an expert in movements or  styles of jazz, hardly, but because I remember reading about that before), and I've read that his earlier aptly named milestone release Milestones (1958) is an earlier seminal modal jazz release than Kind of Blue, but it is more transitional I think (hard bop to modal I guess). There was other stuff earlier that was done in a modal jazz way (before George  Russell, at least based on some minimal research I did),  but yeah, Davis is such a big figure in it, and really pretty much a scene/ movement started with Davis and his collaborators, and Kind of Blue is a seminal release.

Kind of Blue sounds quite conventional by today's standards, as it did set the tone for modal jazz and so much jazz generally down the road.  A radical free-jazz album, seminal for it's style, album such as the Shape of Jazz to Come sonically sounds more progressive in an avant-garde sense, but both that and Kind of Blue were quite avant-garde in the sense of being in the vanguard of jazz movements and styles.

I  prefer later modal jazz albums by Coltrane, Hutcherson, Evans, Davis of course, and Hancock, but Kind of Blue is a really significant release.

I have long had a thing for one particular track in Kind of Blue, Blue in Green.

I don't think I've heard Gong's East (I may have since my brother does a jazz and folk festival so he exposed me to a fair amount of stuff many years ago).  Tijuana Moods is great.




Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 21:13
Blue is Green is pretty wonderful - good old Bill Evans, what a champion Smile


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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 10 2012 at 22:12
Originally posted by dreadpirateroberts dreadpirateroberts wrote:

Blue is Green is pretty wonderful - good old Bill Evans, what a champion Smile


I love it.

Kind of interesting to note the significance to Davis of two white guys from different families (least I haven't thought they were related) named Evans with similar looking given names -- Bill and, with a longer Davis collaboration, Gil Evans.

And if that's not coincidence enough,  there were two different Doctors with the last name Baker in Doctor Who, and to demonstrate even further relevance, the show title sounds kind of like Kind of Blue without the kind of and doctor. {Saper... will know what I mean when I say that the Doctor Who theme sounds great jazzy -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ8XE5IUnuo" rel="nofollow - Don Harper }.



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