The McDonald & Giles Departure from King Crimson
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Topic: The McDonald & Giles Departure from King Crimson
Posted By: TODDLER
Subject: The McDonald & Giles Departure from King Crimson
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 10:23
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Please read the review and post your opinions. I am interested in knowing what others think about the musical direction King Crimson would have taken if they stayed. Also for all of the fans who felt In the Wake of Poseidon was a mere repeat of In the Court of the Crimson King,...does this review put things into perspective for you? Would you personally feel there could have been a possibilty of liking Poseidon more if the material from McDonald & Giles had been incorporated into the album along with Fripp's contributions? http://www.holeintheweb.com/drp/drpmg.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.holeintheweb.com/drp/drpmg.htm
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Replies:
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 16:57
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What? McDonald and Giles left King Crimson? When did this happen? Well the band's doomed to failure now. To be honest if you compare the album the two did after to KC, it's probably a good thing they did leave. I have it but am generally unimpressed by it. Not a bad album but not as good as the KC predecessor GG&F. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 17:09
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Giles was a talent that KC sorely missed up until LTA. A singer of Lake's calibre (or better) would definitely have contributed to KC, McDonald should not have been missed. Poseidon is a superior album to ITCOTCK, although ITCOTCK had a higher highpoint or two.
All personnel problems were rectified with LTA. ------------- 
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Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 18:20
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We'll never know about that...Whatever Poseidon deserves a few more listenings ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 19:13
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It's a huge "What If" and a guessing game. It's the twisted nature of it which makes me wonder. They wrote some of the material while touring with the band in 69'. I wonder what Fripp would have added to it? He would have certainly changed things around a bit I'm sure. What then? Well,...maybe that would have been a plus? It's an unusual situation. A member of Prog Archives created a track list. He burned a disc of material from both releases adding tracks from McDonald and Giles and leaving off certain selective tracks from Posedion. Listening back to it one might get an idea how this particular version of Poseidon sounded. But you have to use your imagination because Fripp would have changed the way the music was presented on McDonald and Giles. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 20:16
OK fine, but we're going to have to stick you in some air fire earth and water before we put you on the scales. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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jean-marie wrote:Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 21:01
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It's an interesting question and it's hard to say how different Poseidon would have been since Fripp always has the final say anyway. I'd be more interested in seeing where the "Islands" lineup would have gone if Boz,Wallace and Collins had stayed.Apparently it was them versus Fripp throughout the recording sessions and if the "them" had their way we would have had a fairly avant styled jazz maybe not too unlike Soft Machine's Third but with Fripp's muscle(guitar).Hard to complain though when Larks' Tongues In Aspic was the followup with Bruford on the kit.It's just i really like the style of Islands. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 22:39
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The double album version Side 1 1.Peace-A Beginning 2.Pictures Of A City 3.Flight of the Ibis (instead of Cadence and Cascade) With sustaining Frippzoid guitar and Lake on vocal. McDonald and Giles on harmony vocals. Fripp adds a new acoustic guitar part in the same spirit as the one on Cirkus.4.In The Wake Of Posedion
Side 2 5.Suite In C; including Turnham Green , Here I Am and others
The middle section of this has the same pattern as Schizoid man regarding the time signature and the style of improv on the woodwinds. Leave that section in, but find an alternative chord progression for the hokey parts that is only slightly different. McDonald and Lake sharing the lead vocal. Have Lake sing "Here I Am" His voice is much stronger for a song like that. Place some atmospheric guitar from Fripp into various sections of the piece.Keith Tippet is brought in to play piano. Steve Winwood still sits in as a guest on organ.
6.Groon....Suite In C ends abruptly and then Groon enters. No longer a single but a serious album track. 7.Tomorrow's People-The Children Of Today Fripp plays a jazzy solo alternating with McDonald's flute and Keith Tippet on piano.Lake backs Giles on vocal and a few chords could be change for the sake of being less corny, but without losing the feel of the song.
8.Lucky Man....Lake persuades the band to record it using mellotron during the verses and chours. Subtle during the verse and poweful during the chours. At the end of the song the mellotron plays an improv type line which is similar to the effect on Battle of the Glass Tears. Instead of hearing Emerson's strange and unique solo at the closing...Fripp plays a battle hymn type distorted solo like what we hear at the closing of Battle of the Glass Tears. Side 3 9.Birdman; involving The Inventor's Dream(Q.U.A.T.)
The Workshop, Wish-Bone, Ascension, Birdman Flies!, Wings In the Sunset, Birdman The Reflection The intro to this is really beautiful. McDonald and Giles overdubbed harmonies in the same light as they did on "In the Court of the Crimson King" Fripp changes the piece by adding in his own written sections compromising the corny sections with a shade of dark....Lake sings "Slowly Up and Slowly Down" and the lead vocal at the closing of the piece. Ian McDonald sings lead vocal on the rest of it with Giles and Lake on harmonies. Side 4 10.Peace-A Theme
11.Cat Food
12.The Devil's Triangle Parts I,2,&3
13.Peace-An End
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 23 2011 at 23:19
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Well it's interesting speculation. I think Poseidon is a very good album, albeit sorta kinda just a remake of ITCOTKC. If it had been the first album, we'd all have a different view of it. Lizard is a different beast altogether and should not even enter into the discussion w/r/t McDonald and Giles. I like that McDonald and Giles album, but it has not aged all that well. Put it up against Poseidon or Lizard and it's immediately apparent who had the musical vision in KC, and I'm pretty sure it was not the drummer nor that guy who joined Foreigner. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 02:44
 ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 03:09
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I really like most of the McDonald & Giles album (though I think the Birdman piece is a tad long winded and outstays its welcome in places) Perhaps both Ian and Michael both belonged to the more 'pastoral hippy' side of early Crimson and baulked at the sort of direction the band were headed in thereafter? I remember an interview with the duo shortly after their departure where they stated that the atmosphere and mood generated at gigs around this time was they felt, bordering on malevolent, sinister and (gulp) satanic!!! (the subsequent Poseiden and Lizard certainly don't support this view apart from maybe the frankly wretched Devil's Triangle) ------------- 
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 08:39
| Great opinions! Fantastic insight from Exitthe Lemming and jammun. and...BTW,...Jean-Marie ...I love Islands. |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 08:47
 ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 08:51
Another  for Islands and all the others of the inbetweens.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 09:06
 ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 21:53
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ExittheLemming you take the words right out of my mouth. When I say M&G has not aged all that well it's exactly that pastoral hippy trippy side of it to which I refer. And it's not necessarily the music, which is pretty solid, 'cept that flute stuff which doesn't work very well for me. And spare me some of those lyrics. I looked long and far for the CD of M&G, pre-Amazon days, and paid a premium for it, so I am not dissing it randomly, not at all. Good album, but put it on and listen start to finish, then listen to Poseidon or Lizard or Islands or anything but Earthbound, and as I've said it's obvious who's the musical visionary, even if he did wander in some prog desert for a year or two without a working band. We all know what happened when he emerged from that desert, where against all odds he apparently consumed some lark's tongue in aspic. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: GypsyJoker
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 22:32
| Crimson would've been a better band had McDonald and Giles both stayed; Mel Collins was the only "replacement" musician of their caliber until the LTIA lineup. McDonald was Crimson's prime mover in the early days, and while his vision may not have been as "Crimson-esque" as RF's, the band would've been better off with McDonald in charge. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: September 24 2011 at 23:03
Here, here! Well said, my good...um...Joker...
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 00:02
This got me thinking (not always a good thing) Crimson at the outset represented such an abundance of talent in one small space that in hindsight, it's hardly surprising that the threat of trampling underfoot would have engendered a recruitment policy resembling an evacuation drill in those early years. I know it's a bit of a glib generalisation but most 'big' bands of any genre have one or two prodigiously talented individuals who lead the rest (yer solid dependable Bill Wyman/Charlie Watts types) willingly or otherwise, into hitherto uncharted territory and innovation. With Crimson however, it's not inconceivable that such were the untapped latent treasures on offer, they could have split into 2 or even 3 different bands that would have gone on to forge important developments in Prog in their own right. The McDonald and Giles school, had they endured, may have ended up in hippy Gong, Khan territory. The more hard edged Schizoid Man school (i.e. Fripp's) mutated into the Larks incarnation while the remains of all that just might have stolen a march on avant/jazz rock fusion. Wild speculation on my part. (the best kind) -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 01:47
Yes it's all coulda woulda, and I'm not disagreeing, but Lizard, at least side one, blew all that up for me. Crimson was and still is, for better or worse, Fripp. We can and will argue here about Poseidon and Islands, and maybe even Lizard though I don't understand that (not to mention the later stuff); but once Bruford and Wetton were on board and we're into that era, KC were probably about as good, to this day, as it will ever get, musically...leaving Giles and McDonald and for that matter Lake and everyone else in the dust. Wha? someone gonna listen to any Styx album instead of Red? Really? More contemporously speaking, Dream Theater? Really? Is that the best you can offer up? Sorry, I don't mean to be an a****le, but there are three albums recorded by Fripp/Wetton/Bruford that just wax any comers (save some jazz guys) and they don't even have to try the competition is so lame. They do not even have to try it's so good. Everyone reading this, disengage from your computer and go listen to The Night Watch. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 05:35
Looks like the Lemming ninja'd me. I read Fripp saying (in the booklet of the 40th anniversary ITCOTCK, I think) that McDonald and Giles wanted to stick to the late 60s ballad type with "beautiful" arrangements, drenched with mellotrons and acoustic guitars, while Fripp wanted to keep developing new sounds. I easily take Lizard and Islands over any recycling of the Crimson King / Poseidon stuff. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 05:42
Dunno, I put Islands on the Lizard side, probably because of those devilish guitars on it. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:33
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Pretty interesting thread. I´ve always thought that the McDonalds and Giles album was better than ITCOTCK. Yep - so shoot me  I see the similarities between the two, but ITCOTCK doesn´t have that quirky Canterbury sound. I hear more of the "whimsical" and slightly jazzy side of Caravan on the McDonalds & Giles record, than I hear KC. ITCOTCK and Poseidon are equally good to my ears, but had Poseidon been the monster of a double album that TODDLER described, then things would look different.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:38
I really don't think that's warranted in this case - torture, starvation and flogging will be more than sufficient. -------------
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 06:45
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The dungeon keeper speaks ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 07:07
------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 25 2011 at 13:43
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That Islands record does have Sailor's Tale, which is so far superior to anything on M&G that I do not understand how anyone would even bother to compare the two. Ladies of The Road is good for the perversion side we all have whether we admit it or no...we did like Catfood after all... plus it has that Beatles sound. But I have no interest in ever having The Letters assault me again. That song is pure torture and for all we know the CIA has figured that out and it's on regular playlist rotation at Gitmo and in Afghanistan and those poor souls will forever have a bad impression of KC. M&G has that purply cover art, guess it doesn't hurt having the guys hanging out with those babes in terms of driving sales to young males such as myself at the time. Hell, Flash made a brief career of that. But Poseidon has sublime cover art such that one can become entranced and lost in it. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 26 2011 at 08:55
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Well.... I first heard I.T.W.O.P. at age 15 back in 1971 and to be presently in my 50's, re-visit the early years,...and discovering a great many things about the music spells out that it is timeless. Although you still have to seperate yourself from the outside world when you endulge in K.C.'s music. For example Islands. I have to be completely alone when I listen to it. I didn't want to mention a lighthouse or a beach but it's true. This is the most enjoyable experience for me. A bottle of superb wine, headphones, and Islands. You simply wipe your mind of everything negative in your life and allow the music to take over. "The Letters' annoys me a bit so I start thinking of something else like how beautiful Maggie Gyllenhaal is. The spiritual side to the music can be found in pieces like "Formentera Lady" with the hypnotic soprano of Paulina Lucus. Also remaining or vamping on 1 chord while coloring the music with chimes, flute, sax, and much of this dosage comes across as spiritual in an ethnic mode.
Try sitting by the ocean and listening to it. As for McDonald & Giles...I struggle with it and it stays packed in a box for the most part. I'm just stuck on the what if. What if they had stayed with the band and Fripp helped craft their songs? How do we know of the outcome? We can make a clear judgement on Fripp's development in composition during that time period and shortly after with Lizard and Islands... where you can clearly observe songs like "Islands" or "Lady of the Dancing Water" which are in the writing style of McDonald & Giles. McDonald wrote chord progressions that were reminiscent of the ones in the song Islands before and on the McDonald & Giles album. I can hear the 2 of them singing both of the songs. Stylistically Fripp composed this way too, however he was a bit more 20th century Avant-Garde than McDonald & Giles....just as he was during the time he worked with Gordon Haskell and Boz. So why would anyone have their mind made up to say that if McDonald & Giles had stayed it would have been a turn for the worse? Fripp was a great writer then and I think he could have shaped their songs into monumental Crimson pieces. The reality that many people live in is about them identifying with the familiarity they feel and know with I.T.W.O.P. ...while history tells us something opposite. There was no indication of decline in the writing department with any of the members during this time. The departure had more to do with a difference in musical taste. Fripp had the same problems with Gordon Haskell and so he decided to start from the beginning with a newcomer like Boz...teaching him the bass and making suggestions for his vocal phrasings. Ironically if McDonald & Giles had stayed and not placed themselves in la la land,...things would have fallen together easily for King Crimson I'm sure. Michael Giles did a fine job on I.T.W.O.P. but Fripp needed Ian McDonald to share the writing for the band to be that ultimately unique again. Mel Collins couldn't write very well and Fripp turned his efforts down suggesting he stick to playing the sax. I.T.W.O.P. was mostly a collection of songs and ideas derived from jams that were developed during the road travel with McDonald & Giles. So history tells us that most of the forthcoming second album had already been written. It was easy for Fripp to put the project in motion. I think with McDonald & Giles in the picture everything would have been according to plan and the music would have been brilliant. Either before or during the time of recording Lizard Jon Anderson and Chris Squire were trying to persuade Fripp into joining YES. Bill Bruford used to see them quite often in the early years as he would attend their gigs. Fripp was a great guitarist/writer and musicians were fascinated with his work. Jimi Hendrix saw them in London and screamed with excitment over their set. Fripp was considered serious and caused some musicians to feel a bit inferior during that time. I trust he would have done an excellent job working with McDonald & Giles on a new album.
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Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: September 27 2011 at 02:14
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I'm sort of thankful they left, if only because it lead to the Wetton/Bruford/Cross lineup, which I believe was not only KC's peak but the apex of progressive rock as a genre. A few mediocre albums in the interim was totally worth that. ------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: Wafflesyrup
Date Posted: October 02 2011 at 22:19
| While I definitely enjoy Mcdonald's and Giles work outside of crimson, and enjoyed their time with crimson, the era of larks' tongues has been the love of my life since discovery. I personally enjoy the thematic call backs of Poseidon. Progress by Giles is a cool one. On another note Giles, Giles, and Fripp has some charming material. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 03 2011 at 19:50
| I'm sure the second album would have been much better had they kept the original line-up. I wish it had been done so, and then they could have done the rest of their discography just as they did and I wouldn't complain. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 04 2011 at 09:12
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This was a strange heartbreaking experience for Fripp. When McDonald and Giles confronted him about their decision to leave at the end of the tour...that was the equivalent of his stomach dropping. What was he to do? Put yourself in his shoes. In the Court of the Crimson King was groundbreaking and influential to many of the solid crafty professional artists in England. Pete Townshend and Joni Mitchell as artists had a great many things to say about the work. I think Fripp was rather broken over the issue. He was given support from his fellow band members for example Michael Giles played drums on Poseidon and Lake was still determined to move on. Fripp was a little devious forcing Lake to leave Crimson as he did. Bringing in Gordon Haskell and asking Peter Giles to play bass. In the end he claimed to justify the act saying he was doing it in the best interest of Lake.
Fripp had a rare situation on his hands. With Phillip Shulman leaving Gentle Giant the tension from worry caused them to feel discouraged over In A Glass House. They were able to replace drummers just as Fripp did with Crimson and they carried on without Phillip Shulman but it wasn't that difficult to do. Fripp had to replace key members of a 4 piece unit quickly or die. Maybe Lake had not developed enough solid writing material in 1970. Fripp wrote the music for Lizard and that alone is something I would have missed if McDonald and Giles had stayed with the band.
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 04 2011 at 13:31
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Well, what I read (in the Epitaph box set) was that McDonald and Giles were missing their (recently married) wives, and McDonald didn't much like Fripp's guitar playing (which Fripp now says he is sympathetic to that view). He also said that McDonald, at least, has regretted leaving. Personally, I think everything after Poseidon was excellent, and even Poseidon was pretty decent all things considered. Still, I would agree that one more album with that lineup would have been interesting to hear. I've heard the McDonald & Giles album a couple of times in the past, and it seemed pretty dull to me, not even close to the next two Crimson albums (let alone the Larks era). Giles though was one heck of a drummer. I do think that Giles and McDonald were a little unsettled by the dark power of the band when they were in it, and at the time probably didn't realize just what a magnificent thing they were a part of. Had they stayed though, I don't think Crimson would have gone on to be the incredible prog powerhouse they were for so many years with Fripp as the captain. |
Posted By: jean-marie
Date Posted: October 04 2011 at 16:44
 ------------- FAIS QUE TON REVE SOIT PLUS LONG QUE LA NUIT HAVE YOUR DREAM LASTING LONGER THAN THE NIGHT |