Prog: best documented genre on the web?
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82646
Printed Date: April 26 2024 at 23:51
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Topic: Prog: best documented genre on the web?
Posted By: friso
Subject: Prog: best documented genre on the web?
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 04:23
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I've never come across a website about a musical genre (and it's subgenres) that has as much information as progarchives. Next to PA there are some other websites as well and on the broad www.allmusic.com all genres are equally documented. What do you think: Is progressive rock the best documented musical genre on the internet? |
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 04:33
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um no |
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 06:29
| Not sure, since it's the only genre I pay much attention to on the web. You can certainly say it is one of the most ardently followed genres, because, face it we are the most intense fans when it comes to our music, and as a function of that prog has a very prominent, detailed and large following on the internet. |
Posted By: tupan
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 07:40
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No, I think heavy metal is a bit more documented than prog.
------------- "Prog is Not Dead and never has been." (Will Sergeant, from Echo And The Bunnymen) |
Posted By: Redug
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 08:12
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http://www.metal-archives.com/ Yeah, this is more extensive than progarchives.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 08:12
Not yet. I am not aware of any university programs focused upon prog music, while there are a multitude of programs in classical and jazz. I'd guess that trad jazz, with its historical documentation by publications such as "Downbeat," would have better documentation than prog. Jazz is, after all, about 100 years old (at least) and incorporates highly studied musical forms including call & response African traditional music.
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friso wrote:Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:01
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I don't know anything about Metal's online following, but is it actually bigger than prog rock or is it just that metal has 4000 sub genres each featuring like two bands? I don't really mean that very seriously or care for an answer, but really, on these metal sites I'll look and see something like "tech extreme death core" , *click" , oh this band also has their own genre. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Redug
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:05
| As somebody involved in both metal and prog's online followings I assure you metal has a larger one. By quite a bit. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:43
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Hahaha no. Metal, Electronic, and Jazz all have tons more words spilled over defining and categorizing them than prog does. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Revan
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:13
I failed to find a jazz webpage which is as comprehensive, structured and categorized as the archives are for prog. I wouldn't know for electronic music. -------------  
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:21
Well if we're talking single websites, then maybe not for jazz, but it is much more well-documented in literature. Ishkur's electronic thing and basically RYM has more info on everything than we do. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:24
Possibly, I haven't really looked into it. This one shows nearly 35,000 songs available as MP3 downloads: http://www.jazz-on-line.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.jazz-on-line.com/ I WILL say that PA seems to have one of the most involved user bases I've encountered online! I believe that its breadth and inclusive of a huge number of sub-genres (Canterbury, Symphonic, proto-prog, prog related etc.) opens up the site for much discussion and analysis. The discussions are usually very high-level and posters very knowledgeable. It's a real pleasure to visit & learn! Excuse me, I have to check in on the Justin Bieber archives.....
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:26
 So, what's the WORST documented genre on the web? Zeuhl? Prog punk?
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:53
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I do agree this site is amazing for prog info. The best, not sure. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 12:17
I think the idea was to discuss "on internet", not in libraries or universities  Well, Jazz documentation is surprisingly fragmentred on the web (ditto for classical, even if I never checked)... even sites that specializes in jazz have very incomplete discogs and are not very structured IMHO .... until JMA appeared.... but the site is still in its first year I do believe that Metal music is generally better documented (both in books and on web), because the fans are even more fanboys and anal (in Freudian sense of the word)..... so yes, Prog is well developped on the web ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 12:35
Understood. However, all the databases are rapidly becoming posted to the Internet. I teach at University of Illinois & most of our classes, assignments, readings etc. are web-based through sites like Blackboard. The question is "Prog: best documented genre on the web?" and really, outside of PA, most sites I've seen were dedicated to particular bands - Yesworld, Elephant Talk etc. If the domain we are discussing is the entire WWW, then I'd posit Jazz is likely the best documented & most extensive. Here's another site: http://www.neajazzintheschools.org/home.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.neajazzintheschools.org/home.php Regarding Prog, the only "textbook" on prog I'm aware of is the voluminous "Music of Yes: Structure and Vision in Progressive Rock" by DePaul Philosophy Professor (and Prog bassist) Bill Martin. Prof. Fareed Haque, guitarist extraordinaire, is Chair of guitar studies at Norther Illinois University. I'm sure he uses more online jazz resources than prog rock, although he's thoroughly fluent in all idioms (jazz, classical, prog, fusion, Indo-Pak etc.). Prog is still very young as an art form compared to other branches of music, but it is catching up quickly. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 16:49
PA is one of the best. But sadly, almost none of the websites that dedicate themselves to the "genre" are about the genre at all ... most of them are strictly fan sites, as this one is.
PA, in many ways, is not even a fan site ... it's a database site and that's about the best thing one can say for it. For one thing they are not interested in the peripherals that come with the music ... sort of like the child is made from science, not two people. It does have its value in entertainment, but not sure anywhere else, specially as an art form!
I have requested to help formulate some information into something that is more valuable and important as a compendium and diary of progressive music, but I think that PA's leadership is not interested in doing much ... just adding more headstones to the cemetary of names no one knows or will ever see, or check.
Seems like a waste to me ... but it's not my call.
The bad part? Music exists by itself and there is no connection between the people, the time, the place, other artists and anything else ... and when you take the "soul" out of the artist, the only thing you have left is some ideological concepts about scales, notes and other fancies that are more imaginary than they are real. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 16:52
The sister web site to this one is about jazz!
Should check it out soemtimes! But even there, they are so ... here they make the first page flowery and psychedelic and such .. there they make it conventional ... how's that for boring and not representative of what the music is really all about? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 18:14
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I say that hip hop and metal are probably much more well documented. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 18:46
I disagree with the bolded. I love those obscure bands. I do check them, listen, and enjoy having such depth of artists to explore. Some of my favorite albums are ones which few have heard of. And I'm not alone. Admittedly our work is there for a small niche of fans, but that does make it unimportant or "a waste." Listeners here connect with both well known and completely obscure artists every day. That makes the work here very worthwhile to me. ------------- |
Posted By: tupan
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 19:05
Yes, you're not alone, Ilike that obscure gems that few people knows. And one of the purposes of PA is to compile info about these rarities, to the future fans. ------------- "Prog is Not Dead and never has been." (Will Sergeant, from Echo And The Bunnymen) |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 20:04
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Not alone? That's putting it mildly. Sure certain contemporary bands are important and undoubtedly popular - probably even more popular than Prog cornerstones as ELP or Crimson right now - but I think it goes without saying PA is a haven of the obscure, forgotten, neglected, slandered, dismissed, and generally whispered about in Prog. Don't we still love that? Isn't it still important? Wasn't that kinda the point of starting such a place? |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 23:39
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People remember King Crimson after forty years....will they remember Justin Bieber after forty years? (Christ, I'm now over one-thousand posts!!)
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Posted By: Proggernaut
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 00:18
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I think prog 'enthusiasts' love to discuss the music, bands and more and this leads to a lot of on-line information. I also think Metal heads share that kind of passion, but metal tends to have a broader appeal due it's (general) lack of complexity. By that I mean metal isn't a challenge in terms of weird time signatures combined with epic song lengths and strange song structures.
I love a lot of metal and have found it's fans are as passionate about the bands and music as most prog fans are it's just that there are more of them so there is more information on the web.
I bet you no one is analysing Lady GaGa or Justin Biebers material in a similar manner though... -------------  Proggernaut (Noun) - one who is exploring the endlessly expanding universe of progressive music.
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Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 00:37
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It appears that way because you're interested in it. Try researching any other genre and you'll come up with as much, probably more. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 02:23
| Metal. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 03:45
It's because prog rock listeners take time to listen, write, and think. And if Metal come close, it's because of some dedicated passion.Does this mean that there's no passion among prog listeners? No, of course... |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 05:35
Indeed, we are the margins and footnotes of conventional wisdom condensed into an impenetrable never ending story of derring do and hirsute cojones in the face of unassailable odds and sods innit?  ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 05:53
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The best documented genre on the Interwebs is Classical by a very wide margin IMO - then they've had 400 years preparing the groundwork, so while the content was never specifically written for the web or collated into one place, it's there in vast profusion. As to the periphery of Prog - that's what the forum is for should you wish to use it, though much of that peripheral information is tenuous and anecdotal because Prog was never, (and is still not), a subculture or a movement in the way the beatniks, hippies, punks or goths were/are - the music existed separate from the cultures it grew up from without its own branch of fashion, art/cinema/literature/poetry/sculpture/pottery/iconography/lifestyle/religion media or any of the other trappings and hanger-ons that would be called peripherals, and by that it is completely isolated and divorced from anything else that bears the epithet "Progressive".------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 06:11
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^ OK but the cumulative early 70's music was not divorced from the cultures it grew up from which must encompass the beatnik, hippie movements at the very least. Most of what you describe as 'peripheral' Dean is for me a very recent phenomenon i.e the 'accessorisation of aesthetics' encompassing cinema/fashion/religion et al which as you adroitly imply, is perhaps the very antithesis of the Progressive spirit in the arts. Is that what you mean? -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 06:21
Kind of... 1969 was a significant year for the Hippy movement - it really was the end of the dream and prog music was a reaction to that, so while Prog grew out of the Hippy Movement it was a divorce in every sense of the word, which is why there is a seperation between the Acid/Pscyhe rock of 1966-1968 and what followed - if anything "subculture" leap-frogged over Prog to Punk with a closer correlation between the Hippies and the Punks than there ever was from Hippy to Prog (see, we don't even have a name for Prog fans - there is no Prog subculture) - Punk has more connection to Velvet Underground & The Factory for example than any Prog band ever did. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 09:53
Yes indeed.Even though prog has very dedicated fans who are doing a lot to keep the genre alive, jazz has more acceptance by the public at large, and has the support of many college programs, music societies, etc.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 09:58
Each journey starts with a single step: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69556" rel="nofollow - www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69556  ------------- What? |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:41
Thanks for that, I stand corrected!! Some of the best prog musicians I ever knew came out of university programs, including guitarists Fareed Haque, PhD & chair of guitar at Northern Illinois University as well as Herb Schildt (keyboardist for Starcastle) and David Onderdonk, both from the University of Illinois. While prog may have been touched upon in some curricula, most of the university programs have been very much into either classical or trad jazz. In an undergrad music class in Urbana, I did a report on the amazing "Night At The Opera" concert by Queen! The classical instructor went "harrumph!!* and gave me a C for the class.  Here's Fareed Haque performing with the California Guitar Trio, playing Mahavishnu Orchestra's "Dance of Maya." Talk about fusion!! Musical education would greatly benefit from more prog, as Jon Anderson proved with his quite amazing work with the School of Rock projects. |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 12:05
Yeah, other than the hair and those long RAF coats and other combat-style jackets we wore. Wonder why that was though, that it wasn't tribal like the Teddy Boys, Mods, Rockers etc.? Or am I missing the blimmin' obvious?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 12:24
The RAF coats and combat-style jackets weren't that universal and the army-surplus has look been "adopted" by several generations of youth before and after (remember Sting & The Police setting the trend for ex-RAF fligh-suits... or the Boiler Suit as James May would have it). Whatever we wore it didn't seperate us visually from non-Prog fans at the time -everyone wore flared demin, t-shirts and bomber jackets whether they liked VdGG or T.Rex. I think we saw that whole subculture thing as something other people did (Skinheads for example). As to why, who knows - in the UK it was probably something to do with the "when" - this was the height of the Permissive Society - marred by the post 'Summer of Love'/Swinging Sixties realism that would ultimately manifest itself in the Winter of Discontent and the whole Punk ethos. ------------- What? |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 19:21
By far, I might add ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:43
By 12 year olds, I might also add
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:51
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Yeah, metal would be the most documented. Rap still lacks a quality database site like PA. Really should have one, especially with a priority given to experimental/alternative stuff. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 16:00
Rap audiences aren't the kind of people who will sit and archive, document, compile and compare information on their genre. That's a generalisation, but it has some truth because as you say, there is no Rap Archive, or even many websites that deal with rap alone. Same goes with things like early rock and roll, or '90s boy bands, or those '70s variety acts that dominated Top of the Pops...... because not many people are dedicated to these genres so much as "just quite keen on them". These kinds of music have no geeks, no historians, nobody interested enough to argue about them or make polls. Prog does have such fans, which has benefits and drawbacks. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 16:53
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Eh? Why single out Rap? There must be dozens of music styles/genres that do not have a decent online database, listing any of them here seems pretty pointless. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 17:54
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That. And 'rap' is not a genre, but a style applied by vocalists in many different genres, ranging from hiphop and reggae to jazz. It's roots can be found in African rhytmic story telling that dates back hundreds of years. If that were a genre, so would playing a guitar be....  ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: tupan
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 18:15
There are many books about the Hip-Hop movement (and Rap as the musical branch of this movement). ------------- "Prog is Not Dead and never has been." (Will Sergeant, from Echo And The Bunnymen) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 19:07
Surely the musical branch of the Hip-Hop subculture is Hip-Hop, or am I missing something here.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 20:53
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TheHallway: That's just wrong. First a vocab item. "head" (noun) in hip-hop, a serious fan, one who studies the history of the genre, keeps an ear to the underground, listens to albums without skipping tracks, listens to hip-hop alone or when not in a car etc There's a real thing in hip-hop about "the knowledge", "study the sh*t". I've had hundreds of conversations with heads about all the kinds of things people discuss here about prog. People archive the history, the evolution, discuss all the minutae. The thing is, because of the whole "keeping it reals my dawg" bullsh*t that plagues hip-hop, this is done almost exclusively orally. Setting it down like a library, no one really wants to do. But they should, it's the kind of thing that would help the genre grow up. There should be a place like PA for serious rap/hip-hop fans. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 21:37
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 21:51
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Let's try an experiment in web search using the terms.....I simply put each term into Google's main search engine and looked for the number of hits, which Google approximates as "about." Here's the result: "prog music" = 3,380,000 hits on Google "classical music" = 95,600,000 hits on Google "jazz music" = 76,000,000 hits on Google "heavy metal music" = 102,000,000 hits on Google "rap music" = 75,700,000 hits on Google ------ ....looks like "heavy metal music" to me! The hits don't say anything except point out the existence of "meta-tags," news hits, websites etc. However, for all practical purposes, I'd say that prog music lags. |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 23:45
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In one place, perhaps ------------- I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't |
Posted By: Redug
Date Posted: November 13 2011 at 23:46
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I think if you consider how large the listener-base of prog is compared to those other genres prog is doing pretty well for itself. Jazz and Classical are obviously the best documented genres overall, however most of it is in print. Metal happens to have a strong base of very passionate fans, many of whom are in the age range (17-30) that is going to be most involved in internet archiving. I hope rap and related genres can get a good archive going. It would make it so much easier for those of us uninitiated to find a starting point.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 01:36
------------- What? |
Posted By: OT Räihälä
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 09:51
Contemporary art music is by far the worst documented genre on the web. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/osmotapioraihala/sets" rel="nofollow - Composer - Click to listen to my works! |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 10:23
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1) I like rap and have nothing against the genre. 2) The example wasn't even mine; I was quoting somebody and answering them. 3) There remains no Rap Archive. 4) I give up with this forum. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 11:57
Actually, as long as I searched each term equally, the same results applied in my example. I believe the default of Google is Boolean, with "and" inserted. http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?answer=136861" rel="nofollow - http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?answer=136861 However, point taken = different search strategies will generate widely different results. This topic could be one of the core classes in the Prog Music B.A. degree curriculum! Thanks for your thoughtful analysis!
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 12:39
------------- What? |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 13:59
Search can be a beast! However, I think we may agree that "prog music" as defined by PA is probably not THE most documented music form on the Internet. It is still very, very young compared to many others, and I would think rather obscure. How many prog songs are played at school dances/proms, or in airport bars, or by marching bands etc.? We are all quite engaged in thoughtful analysis of this artform, and there are equally driven fans of world music, metal, blues etc. I believe that the review of the number of college classes specifically about prog is a good surrogate metric for the study. I'm willing to be that actual classes for college credit regarding prog are quite rare, at least in the US. However, I'm shooting from the hip on that one. It depends upon the faculty & their interests. I've met some VERY prog-wise faculty over the years, and they can certainly introduce this topic into their curricula.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 14 2011 at 14:24
I don't have enough time to look at prog (and of course listening to it!), let alone checking sites about other musical genres 
Anyway typically with everything prog, I much prefer quality than quantity, so for sure we must distinguish "best documented" from "most documented", and I guess that's not so easy to measure.
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Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: November 20 2011 at 16:48
| There seems to be a lot on the internet about progressive rock, because almost anything is progressive these days. It can be a case of having to sift the wheat from the chaff. |