Keith Emerson and music theory
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Topic: Keith Emerson and music theory
Posted By: The_Jester
Subject: Keith Emerson and music theory
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:42
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I don't think Keith Emerson had trouble with musical theory since when I hear stuff that he ''composed'' seems too odd to be wanted. It seems to me Mr. Emerson only does what he thinks ''sounds good''. I think Greg Lake is the the best composer in ELP.
What do you think? ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Replies:
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:15
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I think ELP is poopy. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:27
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What do I think about one of the best, most innovative and influential players in rock history? What do I think of the relative importance of 'music theory' ? What do I think of Greg Lake's fine songwriting and production skills? Or what do I think of uninformed questions? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:31
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I think this will not end well.
Mr Emerson was in The Nice, Mr Lake was not. Mr Emerson has over a dozen solo albums, Mr Lake has two. I think it is evident that Mr Emerson was the more proficient composer. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 17:49
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What do you mean by 'too odd'? How does that relate to Emersons understanding of music theory? Arnold Shoenberg composed music that could have been described as 'odd' by many, but I don't think his understanding of 'music theory' was ever in question. Indeed, it was his knowledge of music theory that allowed such experimentation with 'atonality' What, in Emersons compositions, suggests he doesn't understand music theory?? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:04
| If judging him by his music, either with ELP or solo, it is obvious that Mr. Emerson is an intelligent and literate musician. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:19
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I think you are totally wrong Jester in name and nature. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 18:21
As you have said before. Give it a rest. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Horizons wrote:Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 19:30
A bizarre OP to be sure . Wait up, I forgot Greg Lake's guitar concerto which clearly dwarfs Keith's Piano critter in daring, innovation and labyrinthine conceptual detail.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 19:36
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The music theory of Emerson is just a theory so it can't be real anyway, you know like evolution.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 20:04
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In fact, I heard some of his songs and there's a lot of unwanted dissonances in his parts like if he didn't know in what scale or chord to play in and play anything. in opposite the parts Greg Lake composed are all greatly done with respects of the scale they are in and with logical chords. It is an opinion but I guess that Keith Emerson don't know all the subtilities of musical theory and the link between the theory and composition. I know he made solo albums but they are just as his parts in Tarkus or Toccata: random scales in random chords. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 20:09
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And I really like atonality in music but only when it is wanted. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: January 20 2012 at 21:22
sure, he is all over the place sometimes, but it is never filler |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 03:10
| It's too bad if you like Lake's songs better than Emerson's music. You miss it. I can only tell you one thing: be sure nothing is random in what Emerson played. |
Posted By: NickHall
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 04:23
| Greg Lake is a genuine talented songwriter; Keith Emerson is a great musician, not firstly a composer. But I don't believe that part about Keith not knowing his music theory - that's got to be rubbish! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 04:52
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I went to the 1995 ELP convention in Birmingham and there was a keyboard guy who demonstrated Keith Emerson's keyboard technique and explained it in layman terms. Its a long time ago so I can't remember exactly what he said but the gist of it was that Emerson did certain things 'unusually' not always following logical chord progressions or 'playing by the book' .
Emerson was an individual who influenced many prog keyboard players.He 'wrote' his own book on keyboard playing and others followed. The idea that he didn't do things 'right' is a bit silly tbh. He just did things his own way. Its called 'progressive rock'.
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 09:07
Disagree... Fugue. I rest my case.
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 10:49
------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 11:43
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It sounds to me like you are confusing music theory with a more simplistic version of that which is used in song writing. Composition using the "rules" of music theory, or using a simplified form of them that is proven to work every time, or disregarding them entirely does not determine how good a composition will be - using the simplified rules of 12-bar blues have been used to create some of the most sublime music ever written, and some of the blandest. Music theory is a means to describe what has been used, not a means of restricting what can be used. For example chord progression can be based upon the circle of 5ths but that is not a golden rule that must never be broken, chord progressions that do not use it are perfectly fine. Similarly discordance is not dissonance is not atonal; any key change will result in a temporary discord that can be resolved into tonality if the composer chooses too using a pivotal note, but again, it's not a golden rule that must never be broken; using a tritone will result in dissonance, in composition this is something to be exploited to create expression rather than avoid to create harmony, The Beatles used tritones for that purpose and Emerson probably uses them because they sound scary and (karn)evil; atonality simply means without a central key, it is perfectly possible to write atonal music that is harmonic and melodic, what atonality is not is random notes over (in?) random chords, again using atonality is perfectly within the "rules" of music theory.
(I believe) Rick Wakeman said "you have to know the rules to break them", yet the two artists he admired the most for composition and song writing (David Bowie and The Beatles) knew nothing of music theory - they "broke the rules" in practically every song they wrote - not by knowing the rules, but by understanding what sounded right to them. And in that I think this is Emerson's approach, (I'm not arguing whether he knows music theory or not - there are reports that he studied classical piano and took examinations when he was eight - then so did a lot of people who were learning to play the piano back in the day), that he transcribed Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk into common time suggests to me he simply played it as he thought it should sound rather than the slightly arrhythmic 9/8 time it was written in. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 12:09
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Keith Emerson and music is thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle, and thin again at the far end.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 12:11
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: January 22 2012 at 01:14
| I can't listen to stuff like "Fanfare" that's too polished and well played, but bought the Deluxe Edition of "Pictures" after watching "Prog Rock Britannia" and realising how wild they could be live. There are three different concerts on it and Emerson makes some amazing racket. I love the bit when Greg Lake is singing some dirge only for it to be suddenly oblterated by a mad blast of noise which sounds to me like Emerson fell asleep and toppled across the controls of the Moog. Top marks to Greg for the Hendrix intro to "The Barbarian" though. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 22 2012 at 05:27
I am sure you are aware that Toccata is just an adaptation and not his composition, strictly speaking. At any rate, I don't hear anything random whatsoever in Tarkus or Toccata. It is all satisfactorily resolved. Dissonance is tasty, too bad some people prefer it bland.  |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 22 2012 at 07:00
It also is my theory about the Keith Emerson and what it is too.  (I really did watch a bit too much Monty Python when I was young.)  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 22 2012 at 09:15
That Deluxe edition is brilliant ,much the best I've acquired by any artist
The bit you refer to is on The Sage (or might be just before it and its not a ''Dirge'' btw). Keith did have some problems with the Moog in the early days and programming it to make certain sounds. Wasn't always as slick as he would have liked but at least you get a proper representation of the live shows at the Lyceum and Isle Of Wight ( both1970). The official album release from 1971 is just too polished and a tad boring for my liking.
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 23 2012 at 19:17
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And the first part of Tarkus with him playing in a simple scale while it's obvious there's two and that the riff is made on 4ths. He sure knows a bit of his musical rules but not enough and still want to apply the rules he learned but it's not always working. When composers use dissonance it's always clearly wanted. Even real good improvisers make dissonance but it is wanted and it is clear. Keith Emerson's dissonances sound only like errors. There's a huge difference between wanted and unwanted dissonance.
------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 23 2012 at 20:17
| The point is "wanted" or not wanted may be a matter of taste here and not reflect his education. |
Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: January 24 2012 at 01:02
Ah, I see now that what I am impressed by here is the feeling that Emerson is battling against the foces of chaos and randomness. It could all come apart at any moment, but his skill and inspiration are producing far more exciting music than could ever be achieved by sitting quietly and writing a lot of notes down, no matter how cleverly.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 24 2012 at 01:46
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^ exactly; they flirted with utter disaster and usually pulled it off |
Posted By: daslaf
Date Posted: January 24 2012 at 07:59
It may sound like errors to your ears. I'm not a big ELP fan to be honest, but I'm completely sure that Emerson knew what he was doing, I have the feeling though that he tried too hard once in a while and the music feels a little mechanic to my ears, but that's a matter of personal taste. ------------- But now my branches suffer And my leaves don't bear the glow They did so long ago |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: January 24 2012 at 15:26
| Having said that years of music theory aren't necessary to play good music, I think that to dissonate in the way Keith does is necessary a strong musical theory, because dissonation is not random noise (o 'rlly?). In his piano/hammond improvisations, I hear a lot of musical skills, and not only speed. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 24 2012 at 15:56
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Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: January 25 2012 at 17:20
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I'm sorry my friend, But I think Keith Emerson is original.
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 25 2012 at 17:55
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Well, I said it was an opinion, you all have yours and it's perfectly okay but it doesn't change. I don't say he doesn't know all of his musical theory. I simply say that he doesn't seem to know it enough. I sure saw an evolution through time (he's not the same composer from Tarkus to Brain Salad Surgery) but I keep my point. And I admit that in Toccata the first chord was completely wanted. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: January 25 2012 at 19:00
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I warn you. I am the guy who talks to you every morning on the bus. And Toccata was an arrangement of the 4th Movement of Alberto Ginastera's Piano Concerto No. 1, Op. 28.
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 26 2012 at 17:49
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Like I said before, I sure know it is an arrangement. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: frogbs
Date Posted: January 27 2012 at 10:44
| It's ridiculous to say that Keith didn't know what he was doing though I believe he spent a lot of time trying to do things his own way, for better or worse |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 27 2012 at 13:56
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I studied music for 1.5 years and have played music as a low-level amateur for 20 years but I can not claim knowing music theory myself, so I can not debate on technical grounds.
The only thing I can say is, a lot of his music sounds like heaven to my ears.
If you can do Fugue (in between the 2 parts of The Endless Enigma) or the wonderful piano parts in Trilogy, or the Piano Improvisations in Welcome Back My Friends, or Piano Concerto... without knowing music theory, then at the very least you deserve big congratulations!
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 02:45
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 11:24
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I never heard the album Trilogy but I'll try it and see if he evolved. But I sure know that in Tarkus and the albums before that he does things that have a little connection with the scales they are in but that still does a dissonance because he doesn't consider chord change or the note he should play, etc. In Brain Salad Surgery I couldn't believe he doesn't know his musical theory. He evolved but it wasn't always like that. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 11:29
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Will you ever stop presenting your opinions as fact? ------------- What? |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 12:13
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Posted By: 2dogs
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 15:18
I can't say I'm looking forward to hearing Jester's corrected versions, but maybe they'll create some interest in academic circles
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:09
I am not presenting my opinions as facts I present it as opinions. I did not made this thread with intentions of starting up everyone I only wanted to offer my view on this situation and trying to get my opnion evolving. I wanted to hear about others to know what you find and why. I also want to make you think of the situation and get your opinions evolving. I offer arguments wich are my convivtions but if you prove my arguments aren't good I'll change my mind (like for Toccata) and admit things. I only wanted a serious debate. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:15
------------- What? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:33
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Did you notice your 'comma' key is broken? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:36
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For this one, I totally agree with you but everyone does errors. In fact, I was saying this because it is a fact: he doesn't consider the chord changes in the beginning of Tarkus, and the notes he should play (if it was by the book), he does not play them. He makes dissonance in all Tarkus. I've seen the scores, I analysed it and this is my conclusion. There's a key change in the riff and he does not consider it. He continues to play like if he was in the first chord. I sure omitted some things in the statement like ''in the beginning of Tarkus''. I'm still sorry, I can't say I'm right but please, let me have my opinion too. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:42
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Interesting... what makes you so sure he didn't do this on purpose? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:48
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It maybe was but even if it was he still didn't consider it. You can unconsider something on purpose. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:50
Also playing "by the book" is not the golden rule that's never to be broken - Music Theory, as I have said before, is a means to describe what has been used, not a means of restricting what can be used.
By all means have your opinion, but phrase it as opinion not fact:
"I analysed it and this is the conclusion" is opinion presented as fact
"I analysed it and this is my conclusion" is opinion presented as opinion
and consider the possibility that what Emerson composed was what he wanted to compose and the dissonance are deliberate and planned.. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:52
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Also playing "by the book" is not the golden rule that's never to be broken - Music Theory, as I have said before, is a means to describe what has been used, not a means of restricting what can be used. And that's not an opinion? ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:58
You're writing nonsense - have you been drinking? Unless he told you personally, you will never know whether he considered it. The difference is that when he 'did something', it will show in the scores you looked at, whether he 'considered doing something' is unknown to you, unless he told you he did or he wrote that down somewhere and you read it. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:58
 I'm done. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:04
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con·sid·er v. con·sid·ered, con·sid·er·ing, con·sid·ers v.tr.
1. To think carefully about. 2. To think or deem to be; regard as. See Usage Note at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/as" rel="nofollow - as 1. 3. To form an opinion about; judge: considers waste to be criminal. 4. To take into account; bear in mind: Her success is not surprising if you consider her excellent training. 5. To show consideration for: failed to consider the feelings of others. 6. To esteem; regard. 7. To look at thoughtfully. Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/consider" rel="nofollow - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/consider All 7 of these are things for which you cannot judge whether they have been done just by looking at a music scores - unless they are annotated to indicate this.. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:06
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Maybe I'm wrong with defining ''consideration'' because I tought that not considering something was like not taking care of an element (in this case not taking care of the chord change) and could be wanted or not. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:14
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Well, this time I clearly lost. You win, I did make a big argumentative error and I'm sorry to have done it. What I wanted to say is that he continued playing on the same chord while the chord changed that's all.
------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:15
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"consider" has the latin root considerare meaning "to look at closely or to observe". Often in English to say that you considered something is used in context for not doing something - for example, "I considered going to the cinema, but it was raining so I stayed at home." ------------- What? |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:18
I think everybody does what they think sounds good. Unless they are payed to do diffrent. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:23
That's fine, no worries. What triggered me initially was not the word 'consider', but rather the fact that you wrote ' I couldn't believe he doesn't know his musical theory'. It's related: you don't know whether he did not know is musical theory when he decided to continue playing on the same chord. In my opinion he did know his theory, otherwise there's a big chance he would never have reached the heights he did. For one thing, some of his pieces have been, and still are, performed by classical orchestras. The musicians that play in these are not the most open minded when it comes to violating the 'laws' laid down in music theory, so he must have done something right.... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 28 2012 at 17:26
/edit - many 20th Century composers used bitonality, for example Aaron Copland... and we all know that ELP covered his music. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 03:50
| As I said, I do not know much music theory myself so probably I will not be able to give an academical statement, but it would help a lot if you would tell us where precisely you think he is playing "wrong" notes, for example "in the studio version of Tarkus, at 05:25 the background key of the keyboards left hand + bass changes, and he continues playing the same lead scale as he was doing before the key change", etc. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 05:25
ah-hem:
Music Theory studies, examines, identifies, distills and analyses. It does not instruct, dictate, restrict or constrain. So while my comment is indeed opinion, it is supported by the definition of what Music Theory is. Essentially Music Theory says "this worked in the past, if we follow the same 'rules' it will work again" - but they are not Golden Rules - serial composition, microtonal music and aleatoric music are part of Music Theory but have completely different rule-sets to 'traditional' music.
All Music Theory can be said to be opinion, since it is the study of how music is perceived because without human perception it is just vibrations in the air - science can explain how and why two notes can appear consonant or dissonant, but it is human perception that identified them as being consonant or dissonant in the first place.
Tarkus is composed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal_and_quintal_harmony#Rock_music" rel="nofollow - quartal harmony (a 20th century development of harmony) - ie based upon intervals of fourths (perfect fourth, the augmented fourth and the diminished fourth) - intervals of 4th were once perceived as consonant, then during the Baroque, Classical and Romantic eras (ie "common practice") as dissonant and now they are perceived as either dissonant or consonant depending on how they are used. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 09:57
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I know it is 4th but when 4th are used many time there can be key changes just like Tarkus in wich there's a key change in the middle of every mesure of the first mouvement. He doesn't do the key change change in his solo wich isn't dramatic if you like it like that. Maybe it is wanted, maybe it isn't, I don't know I'm not Keith Emerson. I believe it isn't but that's my point of view. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:01
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^ It is all wanted. Keith discussed the section at length with the rest of the band. And even though it was scored it was very much played by feel. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:10
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I too believed it was played by feel wich can result in errors (even though maybe it is completely wanted). ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:11
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^There are no errors. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:18
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Nothing's an error. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:48
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I have Tarkus as a midi file, it's not an amazingly accurate version but I guess it's decent enough for this purpose, if you have any sequencer or midi editor program like Cubasis or the like, I can email you the file and you can easily move the "wrong" notes to their "correct" place and send me the file back, then I will know what are you talking about. |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 11:52
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I could but I can't do it on all the song it will too long. And I'm not the best composer ever, I'll never do a great job on Tarkus. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 11:53
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 12:23
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http://soundcloud.com/amadjester/tarkus-first-mesures" rel="nofollow - http://soundcloud.com/amadjester/tarkus-first-mesures
Here you go if you want to see the first mesures. I'm not too proud of the ending though. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 13:33
I listened to it but I still don't know what are you referring to, sorry...
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 09:08
I have heard it from musicians that there are really no wrong notes. I can't accurately capture their reasoning but they laid more stress on how these notes were resolved. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 09:41
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^ I think that was originally a Miles Davies quote ("there are no bad notes, just badly resolved ones")
Time for a rewind back to 2008 and the release of Opeth's Watershed album containing the track "Hessian Peel" which contained a "wrong note" in the opinion of one of our reviewers - much to the amusement of Mr Akerfeldt - needless to say, http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49617&PN=1" rel="nofollow - a long forum argument ensued . One informative post was made by ex-forum member Trademark (aka Tom Hirst - a professional luthier):
Of course the explanation given by Tom is applicable to a wrong note in a measure of right notes, often during a key-change, and not to this aledged example where Emerson "solo" continues in the old key when the ostinato bass line changes key, but the point still stands - you can either like it or not like it as your own personal tastes. ------------- What? |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 13:03
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I don't think there's a goal in Keith Emerson's solo in the beginning of Tarkus. It also meets my expectancies and it doesn't seem to be used to resolve a note (that's my conclusion after seeing the score.) My track is also the proof that it could still sound good (to me) without being completely off road in the middle of about every mesures (well, that's my opinion). ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 13:41
The harmonic lead in of Tarkus is not "goal oriented" because it is unchanging - there is nothing to resolve because nothing has changed - what we have here is the opposite of expectation, which is why I said Tom's explanation was not applicable to this (Tarkus). Your original premise was (and I quote):
"I don't think Keith Emerson knows his music theory pretty well"
It is impossible for me to demonstrate how much Emerson knows of Music Theory, just as it is impossible for you to demonstrate that he does not. However, we know he has had some level of classical training in the UK (ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Board_of_the_Royal_Schools_of_Music" rel="nofollow - he possibly is ABRSM Graded from an early age) - that will have covered Music Theory (anyone Grade 5 or over has to pass Theory examinations) and since he can play and arrange complex classical pieces it suggests he not only knows it, he understands it. You are saying that because he ignores some rules, he shows that he does not understand them. I say this is an error by you.
What I have attempted to show is that Music Theory is not the Golden Rule that MUST be followed - sure you have to follow these "rules" when you are learning music and want to pass examinations to gain certificates and honours to show to your teachers and examiners that you actually understand the theories you have learnt, but once you are free from academic learning you can do whatever you like. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 14:13
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Dean, the re-post of the 2008 post by Trademark was nice.
I think in the end it's just all those 4ths which are confusing The Jester, many people are so used to the most common intervals of 3rds and 5ths that can not get the 4ths, that's too bad.
Tarkus and many other songs by ELP have been covered by an endless number of musicians, ELP have toured with an orchestra.... if Keith's music was wrong all these musicians wouldn' have done so, I guess that says it all.
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 15:39
You're right about the fact that we can't prove if one or the other says right and it was actually my fun of finding a subject on wich nobody could respond exactly but try to convince the others to their opinion. I searched on the web and I can't find out if he studied in music so maybe you could help me find the info. I'll edit my topic since my opinion slightly changed. I must admit that musical rules are not golden rules but what I wanted you to reflect on in the first place is that you should check on yourself before pointing others. The only thing I wanted to point out is that I think that Keith Emerson's solo isn't logical if we stick to the chord change and could be a lot better to my ears. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 15:49
I really like the 4ths and the riff in Tarkus is amazing. My point is that his solo doesn't stick to the form of the song and that it is not logical. It sure creates dissonance but I think it is unwanted. I too like dissonance in a lot of things (free jazz, contemporary classic, progressive rock, etc.) but I think that his solo is not supposed to be as dissonant as that. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 16:49
I will try and excuse the tone and phrasing of your post as English is not your first language, though I am finding that a little difficult since it makes the whole thread look like trolling to me and I find that inexcusable. Also editing the OP after 80 posts have been made in reply to it I also find distasteful. I suggest that is something you reflect on.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 16:59
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You were not trolled. You gave me your opinion and that's fine. Because of your arguments (wich were certainly not bad) you made me reflect on some aspects I could never think about. My opinion changed a bit because I had reflexions on the subject. Evolution is certainly not a bad thing. If you don't like me changing the post, I'll take it back to it's original form. This is a subject on wich I reflected and it is distateful I agree. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 01 2012 at 16:07
| A weird thread really. It needs to lay down and die peacfully. |