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John Mayhew on Trespass

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Topic: John Mayhew on Trespass
Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Subject: John Mayhew on Trespass
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 06:59
Just wondering...
Am I the only guy here who thinks that Mayhew's drumming on Trespass is actually on par with the other members?
Basically every second review of Trespass says that his drumming ruined the album. I think that, considering the structure and arrangements of the songs themselves, he did a fine job. What do you think?



Replies:
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:09
It's hard being the shadow of Phil Collins.  His drumming didn't ruin the album for me.

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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:11
I think he's a very fine drummer but unfortunately, like most of the early Genesis albums, the detail of each members individual contribution is hidden beneath the fog of some pretty dire production. 

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Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:16
I agree with you. Collins is far better drummer then him, but I still think there is some exaggerated criticism over his drumming. 


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:19
Yep, Collins is probably a superior technician but the italicised does not a moving performance make (on its own)

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Posted By: rupert
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:20
I like the album and I like the drumming.



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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:28
I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:41
I think John Mayhew may have suffered the wrath of Tony Banks.....when actually he didn't do any worse than B.J. Wilson or any other drummer who is asked to play "Visions of Angels". I mean what on earth are you suppose to do with a song like that? You don't want to play during the verse....but when you do  ...what are you suppose to play? Play a straight beat or a straight beat with fills?...which was what Mayhew did. There was nothing wrong with the way Mayhew played "The Knife" unless he was the type of drummer who had technique but lacked in the area of power.....which Collins had force that only he controlled. He had power on "Return of the Giant Hogweed" Did you ever work with a drummer who could play a buzz roll, a round house, a jazz beat etc....but had no ability to give a "punch" to their playing or the band they were playing with? Maybe that was his deal or perhaps Banks was just being himself as usual. Or maybe when Rutherford attempted to accent bass notes ...he may have expected a tightness or a  "lock it in the pocket" sound within the songs of Trespass and maybe Mayhew was not giving him that option.


Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:50
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

A great review! He explained it perfectly. Just what I was trying to point out here.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:51
His drumming doesn't ruin the album

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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 07:59
The strength of Trespass is the songs. It's a great album, made by a very young band, still forging their identity. No member played badly, but equally no member will win any award for blistering, technically perfect playing either.

Collins is obviously a better drummer, that's barely worth debating, but in no way does John Mayhews drumming ruin that album.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 08:05
Well,  I'm glad we all share the same opinion. Smile


Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 08:05
Originally posted by Trick of the lamb

Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

A great review! He explained it perfectly. Just what I was trying to point out here.


Thank you guys, very generous words indeed. 

Nice to see others enjoy his playing too, when I read reviews about his drumming wrecking the album, it amazes me. 


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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 08:09
I have never noticed so it has certainly not ruined the album for me.

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Help me I'm falling!


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 08:26
To be fair to the others, he did not go because "his drumming ruined the album".

When Ant Phillips left, and they wanted to recruit a new guitarist, all felt that they needed a better drummer to take the band forward, given that all were committed to making Genesis work on a full time basis.

They most certainly did get a better drummer.


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In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.


Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 08:30
Originally posted by lazland

To be fair to the others, he did not go because "his drumming ruined the album".

When Ant Phillips left, and they wanted to recruit a new guitarist, all felt that they needed a better drummer to take the band forward, given that all were committed to making Genesis work on a full time basis.

They most certainly did get a better drummer.

I understand that perfectly. I'm just saying that for me, there's nothing wrong in his playing on Trespass, and a lot of people have been implying the opposite.


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 12:07
Originally posted by Blacksword

The strength of Trespass is the songs. It's a great album, made by a very young band, still forging their identity. No member played badly, but equally no member will win any award for blistering, technically perfect playing either.

Collins is obviously a better drummer, that's barely worth debating, but in no way does John Mayhews drumming ruin that album.
 
exactly...
 
Too many people compare it with future gen albums... Mayhew's drumming is apt... doesn't magnify the music as Collins' would in later albums...
 
If you don't notice the drumming in a song, it's definitely not ruining it.... if you do notice it, then there is a chance that it's either excellent .... or awful.... and it's neither in Trespass
 
 
 


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Posted By: Eetu Pellonpää
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 13:57
Remember I liked this album most from the complete quality & atmosphere perspectives, though few next records have great moments too.
Peeked what I wrote myself: "This is my personal favorite GENESIS album, and also their only LP which I still listen quite frequently. It doesn't even have Phil Collins on drums yet, which may make it musically little different than their later albums, where his influence began (sadly) to grow."

            Gotta go now............Beer


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Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: February 18 2012 at 14:18
Trespass is very much different from other Genesis albums. It has a certain, unique atmosphere and the feeling of a young band trying to find themselves. I think John Mayhew is an excellent drummer, obviously not in the same vein as Phil, but he is still a great drummer. Phil brought a much more dynamic and creative approach to drumming and the band.

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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 19 2012 at 12:23
Originally posted by Trick of the lamb

I agree with you. Collins is far better drummer then him, but I still think there is some exaggerated criticism over his drumming. 

I'm thinking we should say ... "was".

I much prefer the drumming he did in almost all his side things and work. The stuff he did with Eno is very good, the stuff on Brand X is very nice ... and the early Genesis stuff is ... beyond discussion, up to the live album and "Los Endos" ... I kinda think that Genesis lost a magnificent drummer, that was helping the music a lot, when he started singing full time ... I would think that it is not easy and probably impossible to do all that singing and drumming at the same time.


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www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 19 2012 at 15:26
^That is why he didn't sing and drum "at the same time"

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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: February 19 2012 at 17:13
Tony Banks being a huge King Crimson fan and then meeting Steve Hackett who was also a Crimhead gave Banks this opportunity to work with someone new in the band who valued the same things . Hackett seemed to have a more definite attack on electric guitar than Phillips....although that was the style of guitar playing Banks was searching for. Like maybe having someone on board that could play like Fripp, but direct their own voice. It was evident during this time that Banks personally did not care for John Mayhew's style and wanted to find a drummer whose attack was harder and could drive the band's sound a bit more. For example the sound of Phil Collins snare drum on "Dancing In the Moonlit Knight" where during an up-tempo section of the song Collins drives the band more and with Hackett attacking those strings ....certainly Banks had the right people.
 
People have often said in the past that Anthony Phillips sounds like Genesis but it's more like the writings of Tony Banks. All the great signature lines came out of Banks. Everything you hear practically that makes you love Genesis ...he wrote it. Selling England, the Lamb, Foxtrot. He had an idea for  an original style and was admired by those around him like Keith Emerson and others, so he was very particular in choosing who to hire. He probably wasn't easy to work with. 


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: April 17 2012 at 09:47
I'm a huge fan of the album. Either my second or third fav genesis album, and I never found anything bad about the drumming. I think it's superb. I was actually suprised that it wasn't Collins.

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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: April 17 2012 at 10:20
John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass is perfectly fine. But unlike Collins, he doesn't add his own flavor.


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 02:12
The kindest thing that can be said about John Mayhew is that he was adequate. His playing didn't ruin the album and, at the very least, the band were able to get the job done with him. But he was not a "good" drummer, and that has nothing to do with comparing him to Phil Collins. It's more to do with the drummer's role in the band and what he brings to the table. John Mayhew was fired because he wasn't good enough. John Anthony (the band's producer) said that he wasn't giving the band time, he was following theirs (which is a pretty major flaw). As a drummer myself, I can hear exactly what JA is talking about. There is a sort of trepidation to John Mayhew's playing, it's just doesn't sound real confident or solid. But, I agree that it doesn't ruin the album.

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jc


Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 04:28
I would compare John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass to Mick Pointer's on Script Wink

It does the job perfectly well but his days were numbered.

I guess you all know that sadly, John is no longer with us but he did come along to a Genesis convention in London a few years ago.




Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 04:30
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...
Errrr.....YES! Wink

To me, this comment is like saying "maybe I should try breathing air or drinking water one of these days......."

LOL



Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 05:37
Originally posted by bucka001

The kindest thing that can be said about John Mayhew is that he was adequate. His playing didn't ruin the album and, at the very least, the band were able to get the job done with him. But he was not a "good" drummer, and that has nothing to do with comparing him to Phil Collins. It's more to do with the drummer's role in the band and what he brings to the table. John Mayhew was fired because he wasn't good enough. John Anthony (the band's producer) said that he wasn't giving the band time, he was following theirs (which is a pretty major flaw). As a drummer myself, I can hear exactly what JA is talking about. There is a sort of trepidation to John Mayhew's playing, it's just doesn't sound real confident or solid. But, I agree that it doesn't ruin the album.



Well put.  As a listener, I think to say his work didn't really exude any great flavour would sum it up.  Collins succeeding him spotlighted the difference, but so would have Bruford or Weathers or Barlow, to name only a few, had they stepped into his shoes instead of Collins.


Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: April 22 2012 at 15:58
I like Mayhew's drumming a lot. Im not a fan of drums really and for a vast majority of bands I regard them as fancy metronomes (Phil incl) and  they never really enter my stream of  musical consciousness. Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though, and I like any drummer that can do that. So Thumbs up For John Mayhew.

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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 10:32
Originally posted by Flyingsod

Im not a fan of drums really and for a vast majority of bands I regard them as fancy metronomes (Phil incl) and  they never really enter my stream of  musical consciousness. Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though, and I like any drummer that can do that.
 
Fair enough, and no one's opinion is "wrong." Still... you're saying that you regard Phil as a "fancy metronome" whose playing doesn't "enter your stream of musical consciousness," but John Mayhew's drumming does catch your attention? Again, fair enough and I have heard some Yes fans say that they prefer Peter Banks to Steve Howe, but I've just never heard anyone big up John Mayhew while referring to PC as a fancy metronome whose playing doesn't register with them.
 
Originally posted by Flyingsod

Mayhew's drumming manages to wrest my attention away from the more musical instruments several times though
 
It's probably because he wasn't  rythmically locked in with them! Wink (just having a bit of fun!)


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jc


Posted By: spknoevl
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 11:29
It's difficult to compare them since we only really know Mayhew from the rather subdued Trespass while we' ve managed to hear Phil in numerous Genesis recordings as well as his solo work and Brand X.  Brand X, especially, gave him a nice showcase for his drumming skills and showed a side of his playing that was really only hinted at in Genesis.  Trick of the Tail is the first Genesis album that really showcased Phil's drumming, to hear ears.

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Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:19
Originally posted by bucka001

 
It's probably because he wasn't  rythmically locked in with them! Wink (just having a bit of fun!)


 HAh! that may be the key :) And to be fair to Phil I'll restate I'm no big fan of drums and people who know drums probably know better.



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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:29
I honestly never found the problem in Mayhew's performance.

He was perfect for Trespass, very few drummers could had made it, because it has very complex sections, I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass.

I don't believe Trespass is the best Genesis album, but I consider it better than SEbtP, The Lamb and every Collins era album.

Iván


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Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 01:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast

It's hard being the shadow of Phil Collins.  His drumming didn't ruin the album for me.
 
Ditto.  He was competent if not exceptional.


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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 02:05
Trespass is one of my favourite Genesis albums, so the drumming doesn't ruin it for me, but I do find the drumming quite tedious and it has seemed to me in places that the drumming is not quite on beat with the music.  The timing seems a bit off in, say, Visions of angels to my non-drummer ear as if he is following the song rather than leading it rhythmically.  A little off-beat can be interesting, but not in this case.  

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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 06:49
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...


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jc


Posted By: spknoevl
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 07:40
Originally posted by bucka001

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...
 
You don't really know that; the band was still young and not all that tight themselves.  I'm not sure Phil could have added all that much more to Trespass.


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The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 09:55
I first heard The Knife on Genesis Live, so when I heard it on Trespass I was a bit disappointed that the drumming on it was so much less dynamic and powerful (I could say similar things about the guitar playing, though Hackett did retain some of the guitar solo in it's album form for the live shows).  I've also heard Phil play Stagnation from that album......and it seemed to me he was overplaying a bit.  Of course, in that case I was more used to the Trespass version.

Overall, I think the album gets a lot of its charm from the somewhat tentative performances of all the band members (compared to later albums, at any rate).  Phil may well have been able to do a better job, but I think the whole character of the album would have changed and it wouldn't be so unique in their discography.  So for that, I'm glad Mayhew was the drummer, even if I much prefer Collins drumming in general.  Definitely doesn't ruin the album for me.


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by spknoevl

Originally posted by bucka001

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I know that in a long term Collins was the best Genesis drummer (with the bonus of his great backing vocals), but I don't know if he would had done a better job with Trespass
 
Trust me, he would have...
 
You don't really know that; the band was still young and not all that tight themselves.  I'm not sure Phil could have added all that much more to Trespass.
 
John Anthony (Genesis/VdGG producer) discussing the problems with Trespass: "John Mayhew couldn't really drum; he wasn't giving them time, he was following theirs... [Trespass] was like a beautiful work, without the necessary foundation, and this was very much felt."
 
I'll go with his (and my own ears') assessment. Remember, the band fired JM and there was a reason for that.
 
Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."
 
And then once Phil joins for Nursery Cryme... Armando Gallo: "Phil's powerful drumming makes them sound like a real band."
 
Again, I don't think JM's playing sinks the album and he is at least adequate. Certainly his playing allowed the band to complete what turned out to be a good, solid album. But it would have been better (the aggressive sections would have had more fire and power, the complicated bits would have sounded smoother and more confident, etc) with Phil (or Guy Evans, or Alan White, or Franz DiCiocco, or Mike Giles, etc) on drums.
 
 


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jc


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 10:24
On the other hand, if I think about the band Yes...
 
Time & A Word is my fave Yes album. I know that almost everyone favors Steve Howe over Peter Banks, and I've read where Howe has commented that he wished he'd played on this album. Undoubtedly, SH is the better guitarist, at least technically and I also think he's a better writer.
 
BUT... I wouldn't change a thing on T&AW. I would hate to think of that album with Howe's million-note runs because the guitar (and everything else) on that album is already perfect. So, I totally get this comment:
 
 
Originally posted by infandous

I think the album gets a lot of its charm from the somewhat tentative performances of all the band members (compared to later albums, at any rate).  Phil may well have been able to do a better job, but I think the whole character of the album would have changed and it wouldn't be so unique in their discography.  So for that, I'm glad Mayhew was the drummer, even if I much prefer Collins drumming in general.  Definitely doesn't ruin the album for me.
 
Still, I'm not sure that my T&AW / Trespass situation is an apt analogy because I think Peter Banks was a better guitarist than John Mayhew was a drummer (Banks, while not as good as Howe, was at least a good, really talented guitarist whereas I just don't think the same about John Mayhew's drumming)


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jc


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:46
Originally posted by bucka001

 
John Anthony (Genesis/VdGG producer) discussing the problems with Trespass: "John Mayhew couldn't really drum; he wasn't giving them time, he was following theirs... [Trespass] was like a beautiful work, without the necessary foundation, and this was very much felt."

I completely disagree with him, his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible, the drums sound as tin cans, this is not Phil's responsability, but the producer's who did a sub-par job.

I feel that Trespass is well balanced and everybody was perfect for the album.

BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also. but Mike really developed, we don't know how much John could had evolved in time.
 
I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot
 
Originally posted by bucka001

Armando Gallo (famed Genesis biographer/friend) discussing Trespass: "...a frustrating album to listen to because you can feel the direction that the band were moving towards, and the difficulty that they were having getting there. The rhythm section of Mike on bass and John Mayhew's drums is never confident enough to give the album a solid foudation."
 
Again, Gallo blames Mayhew and Rutherford, but Mike improved a lot, I believe Genesis was a bit unfair with John, to the point that he had some "negotiations"  Genesis for his royalties on Trespass at least until 2006   http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006-Page2.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006-Page2.htm   which I'm not sure if he ever got


Iván 

 
 
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: April 24 2012 at 13:53
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I completely disagree with him,
 
He was there, so if there was a problem with the drumming (and if the band had a problem with JM) he would know. And even if he never said it, I think one can hear it. JA's no fool, I talked to him at length a couple of times while doing the VdGG book, and he's a very sharp music guy with a great track record (besides working with Genesis and VdGG, he produced Queen, Roxy Music, Al Stewart, and had a major production hit with "How Long" by Ace)
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

his work at Nursery Cryme is terrible
 
I thought it was a very good production job, and he did a fantastic job with Pawn Hearts the same year.

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

BTW: The time had to be given by the full rhythm section, and if you blame Mayhew, you must blame Mike also.
 
You can have Stanley Clarke on bass, and if the drummer is not very good (following time instead of giving it, etc) then it's not going to sound very good. Phil Collins once said that a great drummer can make a mediocre band sound great, and a mediocre drummer can make a great band sound mediocre. In my own experience, I've seen that to be the case (both scenarios). So, there's nothing Mike could have done.
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

I honestly don't trust john Anthony too much, remember that Genesis  started to work with David Hitchcock who improved the sound clearly in Foxtrot
 
Not by choice. JA got the boot by Strat for spending too much time on the Happy The Man single (so the story goes) and Gallo wished that JA had done Foxtrot. I, too, don't think that Foxtrot is any big improvement over NC (although the 9/8 section of Supper's Ready is sonically awesome).
 
I also think Genesis was fair with JM. He just wasn't very good. They weren't horrible people, so to do something as unpleasant as firing someone in a band, there had to have been a reason. The reason was they knew they could do a lot better.
 
 




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jc


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 17:26
This is an intriguing thread. I've pondered this myself at times. Trespass is among my top ten favorite albums, so his performance didn't do anything to disrupt my own appreciation of the album. I used to be a good amateur guitar player, definitely not a drummer. I do understand what another said about following with the rhythm rather than providing rhythm. However, Anthony Phillips and others were influenced by classical music, and classical music may involve percussion, but it doesn't normally have a back beat. The other instruments do normally provide the time (or stretch it freely). In my opinion his tentative playing suited the elegant ornate feel of the album. Trespass marked a transition from an acoustic heavy sound to an electric heavy sound, and Mayhew was there for that transition at an appropriate time (one might say the same about Anthony Phillips who shined more on 12-string than electric, but whose departure had nothing to do with limitations of playing ability - he was quite good indeed). I propose that if Phil Collins had put his authoritative drumming on Trespass, it might have been good in a different way, but it would not have had quite that same feel.

There's a very precious interview of John Mayhew on World of Genesis:
http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006.htm

I like how Mr. Mayhew himself put it in the interview:
"What happened was that I locked horns with myself, really, and I thought, “Oh goodness, I can do anything to spoil or inhibit their musical flow” or whatever and deferred to the music itself and cut everything down to a very spare way of playing in consequence… I realize now."



Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 21:28
Trespass is close to Genesis best album. Nice compositions. Not a weak track. The band replaced 2 members for the next album and the composition quality dropped. There's 3 or 4 weakish songs on Nursery imo. The songs on Trespass are cool and the drumming is fine.


Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: July 02 2012 at 22:35
< ="" ="text/" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> He's not the tightest drummer I heard but his job is fine on the album. It's not excellent but it's good.

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- Napoléon Bonaparte


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 00:56
Originally posted by Nov

I would compare John Mayhew's drumming on Trespass to Mick Pointer's on Script Wink
A very apt analogy - very well stated...


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Posted By: Flyingsod
Date Posted: July 04 2012 at 15:34
For non Marillion fans... what does ^that mean?

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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 06:40
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M


I don't believe Trespass is the best Genesis album, but I consider it better than SEbtP, The Lamb and every Collins era album.

Iván
Whoa.......Genesis from 1970 - 1977...then they became a pop band...
Tresspass is very feminine except for "The Knife"...soft 12 strings...excellent album especially Stagnation, I just Love he guitar motif when Gabriel sighs..."and must I wait forever......"
But - Then came in Collins and Nursery Cryme was an overall marked improvement on Trespass......Only weak track is the "For Absent Friends...",  Salmacis.... is in the top 50 prog tracks of all time (well of the ones I've heard anyway)...then the Foxtrot - "Suppers Ready"......and you're into the top 20 tracks of all time.....
AND THEN THE MASTERPIECE......Selling England by the pound...the best symphonic prog album of the seventies by a freaking country mile......has three of the top 10 prog tracks of all time and the BEST prog guitar solo to boot.....
The lamb had a lot to live up to after that and sadly (though still excellent) droppped below the standards set in the previous 3 recordings...similarly TOTT and then a big improvement in WAW - even with collins singing this captures earlier glories with the excellent - Blood on the Rooftops.....
It's all about opinions bu I reckon 99.99% of Genesis freaks would consider that SeBTP to be their pinnacle.....
Who disagrees???


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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 06:43
Oh and I agree with the Mick Pointer POV - bloody awful drummer , and I saw him live half a dozen times....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 05 2012 at 09:13
Trespass is nearly as good as Selling England by the Pound but better than Foxtrot. John Mayhew would have been awful on Selling England by the Pound, but he was not awful on Tresspass. Different things were called for. If the band were wishing for a more guiding and driving drum beat on Tresspass too, then fine (It's not clear to me Anthony Phillips was), but the album would have had a different less classical feel. For me Trespass is a gem that I would not like to hear altered, and Mayhew ought not to be maligned for his contribution, I don't think.


Posted By: JohnK67
Date Posted: November 04 2013 at 16:11
Tony Banks said in an interview that John Mayhew was a good drummer once he learned the parts but the parts had to be written for him by other members of the band because he couldn't come up with drum parts on his own. So usually Tony or Anthony Phillips had to teach him what to play which ended up being extremely time consuming. When they auditioned for a new drummer after Trespass, they were looking for someone who instinctively knew what should be played without someone showing him, which they obviously got with Phil Collins.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 04 2013 at 23:43
Originally posted by M27Barney

Oh and I agree with the Mick Pointer POV - bloody awful drummer , and I saw him live half a dozen times....
Off topic here, but I agree - naturally, I have 'Script', and I recently acquired the latest Arena album 'The Seventh Degree Of Separation' and I don't hear much, if any, development in his drumming......
John Mayhew on 'Trespass' reminds me of Guy Evans on 'The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other'.


Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 10 2013 at 13:56
After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.

I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.

This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.

And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.

I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.

To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.


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Posted By: sturoc
Date Posted: November 10 2013 at 17:13
I gotta lay it out on the table here:
 After reading all the 'what if's' , the 'I think's ', the 'so and so said' this and thats.

I see it in this way
The band, as is any new band when writing, composing and recording, was always in flux and as time goes on would eventually find their way.
I dislike very much how posters say that Mayhew would have been horrible on later Lps.
How can you know this ? If your a musician you would know as you're developing the  craft that you never play the same way as a year ago, 2 years ago, etc.
Unless your stuck in a useless rut -you are always seeking to expand.
How do we know that Chris Stewart would not have advanced further if he had stayed ???
Mayhew could have grown into a remarkable drummer as did Collins over time.  Sadly this was not the case.
To say that Collins would have been great on Trespass or earlier is also a very baseless unless you heard him play during that time. He may have been honing his playing as well since he had really only been in one 'real' band prior to Genesis

I've been in bands where the current drummer was very good and as the band evolved the drummer did not and hence we let him go  for a more cohesive like drummer. there was no soap opera or mystery over it We agreed together and while it is disappointing to have one to leave a band. It is part of the process. That said after a time the 'new' drummer left and the previous one came back ! Improved and definitely a more mature drummer in the musical sense.
One can write a novel on band dynamics !

Genesis was in development mode for years especially at this time period/ lp discussed. And unless one can quote directly from the band members themselves or the studio engineers as one poster bucka001 has done, then it is only speculative opinion.
But please don't make those sound like absolute facts.
Read this :
http://www.worldofgenesis.com/JohnMayhewInterview2006.htm

At the time, Mayhew while quite humble and respective of the other members longer association, was good for the band and recordings.


Posted By: iamathousandapples
Date Posted: November 10 2013 at 18:00
Outside of Visions of Angels and The Knife, there wasn't many songs where it actually grabbed me. It's not really bad, it actually kinda suits the album I think.

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http://www.last.fm/user/thamazingbender" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: November 10 2013 at 23:37
I view the drumming on Trespass the same way I view John Rutsey's drumming on the first RUSH album. Sure the guys who came after them were technically better but they still got the job done and they both did a fine job. I know some think of "Trespass" as the first Genesis album even though it really wasn't but you can think of it that way.


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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 11 2013 at 00:31
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy

After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.
I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.
This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.
And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.
I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.
To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.

Mayhew did not drum in a conventional sense. But the band was instructing him on his parts, so they were culpable if it was so bad, but it wasn't. Mayhew did not provide time, lots of fills here and there. He's more like a percussionist, following along with the orchestration and adding color to it, not driving it, but this fits the ornate style of the album. It fits the classical feel. Mayhew recognized the writing prowess of the group and kept a light footprint. This was a good thing.

Although he had a heavier footprint, the same could be said about Rutherford's base. He inserted lots of fills and did little to provide time. It seems to me that Banks was usually slightly ahead of the beat and that he was driving the pace of some of the material. Collins is a better drummer. I think he would have done well on Tresspass, but it would have been a very different album, and therefore I am happy that we have what we have. In hearing The Knife live with Collins on drums, I do not think he improved upon anything Mayhew did on it. Nursery Cryme is not so ornate overall. Then again, when it is, as with Harlequin, the drums have a lighter footprint.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 11 2013 at 01:13
Originally posted by HackettFan

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy

After reading this thread I went to the effort of listening to the first side of Trespass just for the drumming.
I must admit that Mayhew is bad.  He either marks time like a metronome or he shovels in fill after fill.  There is very little actual drumming going on except in a few parts on White Mountain.
This woke me up.  I paid attention to every single drummer I listened to afterwords.  The only drummer who seemed to do as poorly was a drummer who belongs to a knock off heavy metal band which shall remain nameless.
And I don't think Rutherford deserves the same criticism.  There were plenty of places on the first side of Trespass where Rutherford went his own way.
I have a bootleg copy of White Mountain where Buford does the drumming.  I hope to get to that soon and see where he went with that.
To sum uo, it is amazing that Trespass is so good with drumming so bad.

Mayhew did not drum in a conventional sense. But the band was instructing him on his parts, so they were culpable if it was so bad, but it wasn't. Mayhew did not provide time, lots of fills here and there. He's more like a percussionist, following along with the orchestration and adding color to it, not driving it, but this fits the ornate style of the album. It fits the classical feel. Mayhew recognized the writing prowess of the group and kept a light footprint. This was a good thing.

Although he had a heavier footprint, the same could be said about Rutherford's base. He inserted lots of fills and did little to provide time. It seems to me that Banks was usually slightly ahead of the beat and that he was driving the pace of some of the material. Collins is a better drummer. I think he would have done well on Tresspass, but it would have been a very different album, and therefore I am happy that we have what we have. In hearing The Knife live with Collins on drums, I do not think he improved upon anything Mayhew did on it. Nursery Cryme is not so ornate overall. Then again, when it is, as with Harlequin, the drums have a lighter footprint.

I tend to go further and say Collins closed to ruined it for me. It doesn't need his 'overly busy' style all over it. I expect people already know this but The Knife came from an earlier track recorded by The Nice called 'Rondo'. There is a very similar situation regarding Carl Palmer playing that track with ELP and Brian Davison playing in on the original album. Davison was a limited (although very good) drummer but Rondo was ideally suited to it his style. Powerfull driving but unfussy. Palmer wanted to do more with it but it just didn't need it. (although at least Palmer didn't feel the need to blow a whistle during itAngry)


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 11 2013 at 10:20
Originally posted by JohnK67

Tony Banks said in an interview that John Mayhew was a good drummer once he learned the parts but the parts had to be written for him by other members of the band because he couldn't come up with drum parts on his own. So usually Tony or Anthony Phillips had to teach him what to play which ended up being extremely time consuming. When they auditioned for a new drummer after Trespass, they were looking for someone who instinctively knew what should be played without someone showing him, which they obviously got with Phil Collins.
 
Obviously Genesis or (Tony Banks), wanted a drummer with more power, gymnastics, and independence. They didn't need Tony Williams or Billy Cobham in the band, but they required just enough of that gymnastic kind of playing adding something special that was meant to exist in their music. It's where a Classical and Jazz mentality of drumming are fused together to back the foundation in sound of a full scale Progressive Rock piece. I can imagine how frustrated Tony Banks became with teaching someone their drum parts. Especially when you're trying to make a simple leap to a level where a band can easily progress. It's not the kind of situation a professional musician/writer will tolerate for long. That's not being pompous, it's just expecting everyone to pull their own weight. Which is only fair because in some cases ..spending time teaching or guiding others is a situation that takes advantage of you and it will squander your talent.


Posted By: sturoc
Date Posted: November 11 2013 at 10:54
Well its a difficult situation that can border on being read as pompous, egotistical etc. The 'core' members congealed their bond and were trying to bring another in. That' a very hard thing to do and unless your lucky you'll go thru many auditions or sessions to find that person. I've been involved in just this situ and its extremely hard to deal with,cause its your project. If you've only played in cover bands you won't get what I mean. Writing compositions goes very deep an extension of yourself being put out there.
The Mayhew period is such a short amount of time to try and get comfortable with people especially when in a recording studio under the microscope and clock.

I see where Banks comes off as pompous etc in interviews and carefully wording his responses but with a slip here and there too. My feeling about all that is 99% of us do not know him personally or in a group dynamic so how can we honestly try to describe how he really is ?
Within any band, there are 'leaders' & 'followers'. And as we've seen with Phillips (for whatever the real reasons were) left, Gabriel and Hackett they choose not to follow and left.
The eras in question are completed,  times have moved on and that is history.


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 12 2013 at 10:38
Originally posted by sturoc

Well its a difficult situation that can border on being read as pompous, egotistical etc. The 'core' members congealed their bond and were trying to bring another in. That' a very hard thing to do and unless your lucky you'll go thru many auditions or sessions to find that person. I've been involved in just this situ and its extremely hard to deal with,cause its your project. If you've only played in cover bands you won't get what I mean
I understand what you mean. Most original bands I worked with had a leader who took on the role of dealing with musicians who simply couldn't cut it. I would sit at rehearsals and observe the leader getting frustrated. Taking a musician like that on the road is a worse nightmare and even worse than that is an idea person like me being asked to coach the musician.
 
 
Writing compositions goes very deep an extension of yourself being put out there.
The Mayhew period is such a short amount of time to try and get comfortable with people especially when in a recording studio under the microscope and clock.

I see where Banks comes off as pompous etc in interviews and carefully wording his responses but with a slip here and there too.One of his famous remarks made reference to Steve Hackett leaving: "He just didn't turn up one day...I believe during the mixing of "Seconds Out"  "And so..we just mixed him out and that was the end of it"LOL and then he talks about being surprised because he thought that Steve Hackett's greatest contribution to the band was on Wind and Wuthering. He cracks me up...because it would SEEM that he feels ..either do it my way or no way. I do believe his determination to do things as he suggested was important to the overall sound of the band. I recall reading several times that when Hackett and Banks met, they really hit it off quite nicely because they shared a common interest ..which was the love for King Crimson. Phil Collins' first wife talked about Phil coming home from Genesis rehearsals and sitting around listening to Larks Tongues In Aspic until he went to sleep. I'm sure he liked the early Crimson too..but!...this is where Tony Banks laid down rules like..."Let's try not to sound like King Crimson" ....he probably made suggestions about the drumming sounding too much like Crimson and that it needed to be changed and most likely tried to get Hackett to follow that path as well with his guitar playing.That is my guess based on Tony Banks' mission to escape the trap of emulating other bands. It just seems like most of his dominating pressure revolved around making Genesis sound like no other.
 
 
 My feeling about all that is 99% of us do not know him personally or in a group dynamic so how can we honestly try to describe how he really is ?
Within any band, there are 'leaders' & 'followers'. And as we've seen with Phillips (for whatever the real reasons were) left, Gabriel and Hackett they choose not to follow and left.
The eras in question are completed,  times have moved on and that is history.
It can be a very strange experience. I remember working with a band leader who was very difficult with his demands. I traveled the road with him when I was very young and couldn't take his grief. Years later..he walked up to me when I got off stage and squeezed me so hard ..I couldn't breath. He said..."I have never worked with a guitarist that listened so well and I miss you" That was his way of saying "I'm sorry and love ya" Robert Fripp and Gordon Haskell did this when they crossed paths after not speaking to each other for decades. Bands are like families. Brothers and sisters on the road and I believe Tony Banks and Steve Hackett love and respect each other after all this time has passed. I believe through the hardships of Genesis, that they all still love each other.


Posted By: sturoc
Date Posted: November 12 2013 at 21:34
"I believe through the hardships of Genesis, that they all still love each other."

that happens as one ages and gains further wisdom.

This has been an interesting thread and rekindled my historical interest of what occurred back in their late 60s-early70s era.


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 01:06


Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 01:08
Why John Mayhew? Why? Ooooooooooooh why?

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Have you seen them Khajiits?


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 05:56

Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

Actually, also speaking as a drummer, some choice spots of imprecision in his drumming technique actually does diminish the quality of the album IMO.  For example, compare The Knife original to Collins' playing live.  Collins' precision and skill overrules - and enhances - the quality of that piece of music.  And, it is not the only one from Trespass enhanced in that way...


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 06:06
Originally posted by prog4evr


Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

Actually, also speaking as a drummer, some choice spots of imprecision in his drumming technique actually does diminish the quality of the album IMO.  For example, compare The Knife original to Collins' playing live.  Collins' precision and skill overrules - and enhances - the quality of that piece of music.  And, it is not the only one from Trespass enhanced in that way...


I get what you're saying - I really do, but I must stress that I personally find 'mistakes' in music very charming - even when they're not meant to be there. I adore Collins and think he was a far better drummer than Mayhew, but then again Trespass would never have been the record it is with Collins behind the kit.


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 06:17
Originally posted by Guldbamsen


Originally posted by prog4evr


Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I know people who count it as the best Genesis release. Our dear pomodoro pal Jim from the Italian quarters wrote a fantastic 5 star review of it not too long ago.
It's been a while since I heard it last, but speaking as a drummer I don't recollect anything from it that would diminish the rest of the album though. Maybe I should give Genesis a spin one of these days...

Actually, also speaking as a drummer, some choice spots of imprecision in his drumming technique actually does diminish the quality of the album IMO.  For example, compare The Knife original to Collins' playing live.  Collins' precision and skill overrules - and enhances - the quality of that piece of music.  And, it is not the only one from Trespass enhanced in that way...

And, I get where you are coming from on this as well. 'Trespass' has a charm that the other albums do not, and the inexperience of all members might well be the reason for this...
I get what you're saying - I really do, but I must stress that I personally find 'mistakes' in music very charming - even when they're not meant to be there. I adore Collins and think he was a far better drummer than Mayhew, but then again Trespass would never have been the record it is with Collins behind the kit.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 12:46
The band - snug and warm in the McPhail cottage - all huddled round a roaring open fire - I can almost taste the 12-string guitars picking out those delightful melodies. I don't think that the band could ever re-capture those naïve days of youthful comradeship - They listened to Crimson's ITCOTCK - and that led to a coalescence of ideas and slowly and surely the first symphonic progressive rock albums were conceived....It sends a shiver down my spine to imagine such ground-breaking days...Modern bands cannot now really get that same vibe....all they can do is put down homage to the pioneers....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 10:34
Originally posted by M27Barney

The band - snug and warm in the McPhail cottage - all huddled round a roaring open fire - I can almost taste the 12-string guitars picking out those delightful melodies. I don't think that the band could ever re-capture those naïve days of youthful comradeship - They listened to Crimson's ITCOTCK - and that led to a coalescence of ideas and slowly and surely the first symphonic progressive rock albums were conceived....It sends a shiver down my spine to imagine such ground-breaking days...Modern bands cannot now really get that same vibe....all they can do is put down homage to the pioneers....
 
In the late 70's, Prog was sinking to the complete underground level. The ideas formed naturally in 1970 whether you were in front of the fireplace or traveling on a bus through a snow blizzard. But ..it's still music and not so much the times we were living in. Music could still be written with great diversity today if only something had not gone wrong decades after the original Prog empire fell by the wayside. Back in 1971 Curved Air sounded nothing like King Crimson apart from maybe a few forgiving notes. Most bands were so incredible at being diverse from one another and yet so distinctive in style. Unfortunately there were some "copy cats" that were not very creative. The ability to create fine original sounding music is still there today, but it is overshadowed by an attitude to disrespect Classical composers and insist that by dismissing them, real originality will form from you and in it's best. Do you realize how moronic that is? To be able to play Classical music to perfection on the piano and stand in front of the other teachers defending your purpose and belief? This is a concept that will not work. You can't walk around in life learning history to get your degree and then move on in life disregarding all your knowledge as farce, mocking it, and claiming it's bad influence prevailing over you to invade your own personal creativity. That's not how original creative music was written during it's process in other decades. This is like a moronic demonstration and denial of respect for creative composers from other centuries who laid foundations for music education. If people continue to spread this kind of attitude..the music will suffer.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 12:55
Originally posted by TODDLER

Originally posted by M27Barney

The band - snug and warm in the McPhail cottage - all huddled round a roaring open fire - I can almost taste the 12-string guitars picking out those delightful melodies. I don't think that the band could ever re-capture those naïve days of youthful comradeship - They listened to Crimson's ITCOTCK - and that led to a coalescence of ideas and slowly and surely the first symphonic progressive rock albums were conceived....It sends a shiver down my spine to imagine such ground-breaking days...Modern bands cannot now really get that same vibe....all they can do is put down homage to the pioneers....
 
In the late 70's, Prog was sinking to the complete underground level. The ideas formed naturally in 1970 whether you were in front of the fireplace or traveling on a bus through a snow blizzard. But ..it's still music and not so much the times we were living in. Music could still be written with great diversity today if only something had not gone wrong decades after the original Prog empire fell by the wayside. Back in 1971 Curved Air sounded nothing like King Crimson apart from maybe a few forgiving notes. Most bands were so incredible at being diverse from one another and yet so distinctive in style. Unfortunately there were some "copy cats" that were not very creative. The ability to create fine original sounding music is still there today, but it is overshadowed by an attitude to disrespect Classical composers and insist that by dismissing them, real originality will form from you and in it's best. Do you realize how moronic that is? To be able to play Classical music to perfection on the piano and stand in front of the other teachers defending your purpose and belief? This is a concept that will not work. You can't walk around in life learning history to get your degree and then move on in life disregarding all your knowledge as farce, mocking it, and claiming it's bad influence prevailing over you to invade your own personal creativity. That's not how original creative music was written during it's process in other decades. This is like a moronic demonstration and denial of respect for creative composers from other centuries who laid foundations for music education. If people continue to spread this kind of attitude..the music will suffer.
I think you misconstrued the thrust of my nostalgia! I am not dismissing the contemporary artist whether he be genius or a journey-man. However if you create an album full of 12 string melodies (feminine was suggested by some critics and connoisseurs ), people are immediately going to say that you are heavily influenced by early Genesis - I am thinking of big-big train here - they are trying (and in my opinion failing miserably) to create another flavour of English Symphonic prog - but since that is only my opinion if can be taken with a pinch of salt for those fans of BBT it's just not "my cup of tea". The early seventies was the launch of symphonic prog, that is a fact and no band currently can hope to claim to "launch" symphonic prog - that is the gist of my argument.


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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 01:36
The early seventies was a unique time for music in general not just symphonic prog. Its more difficult for bands to get their stuff taken seriously anymore and as soon as that word 'pretentious' became a byword for anything from Jethro Tull to ELP and became ingrained in the music critic dictionary forever then Houston we have a problem. It actually amazes me that band such as BBT even exist. They do what they do for love not for money.. I appreciate that fact but how much the music impresses me is another matter.


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 04:49
I just used BBT as an example - and they are possibly the biggest disappointment that I have invested in (twas my own fault - I bought their first four CD's without hearing any) - I keep intending to give them a re-spin in-case I just listened in haste...mind you I have about another 30 or so CD's that I haven't spun once yet so - I have to get through the back-log first !!! ho-hum.

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 19 2013 at 15:42
BBT are a good example though. I'm sort of on the fence about them. Pleasant but borderline banal at times although there are some lovely hooks. English Electric Part One is 'accessible prog'. If radio played prog anymore then this would do well.


Posted By: genbanks
Date Posted: November 24 2013 at 15:11
Yes, he didn't ruin the album, he did a good job, if I do not know nothing about Mayhew, Phil and all of this, surely I would have nothing to say about the drumming. Tresspass is a great album, with a an amazing, dark and enigmatic atmosphere.


Posted By: Zenbadger
Date Posted: November 24 2013 at 17:25
Well said!

I don't think genesis were quite ready for a drummer such as Collins when they wrote trespass.

The drums work great and the album benefits from them not being too ambitious. Although I haven't listened to it in a while, I'm gonna dig it out!


Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: November 26 2013 at 00:36
I like Mayhew's playing just fine and think it fits the songs well...I always figured they sacked him due to personality conflicts...like maybe he was on ok guy who couldn't stand Banks arrogance LOL

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I'm using the chicken to measure it.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 26 2013 at 04:29
Trespass is such a great album, I wouldn't change a thing on it.
Whenever I hear 'Stagnation', I can't help but think how spot-on the band was as a unit - every member just 'clicked'. Perfection.
Banks is outstanding on every level .


Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: November 28 2013 at 03:59
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King

I like Mayhew's playing just fine and think it fits the songs well...I always figured they sacked him due to personality conflicts...like maybe he was on ok guy who couldn't stand Banks arrogance LOL

Just gave Trespass another spin today. The drum roll near the end of Stagnation is terrible. The drumming on The Knife is hardly better in my opinion. Have read nothing to suggest there were any personality conflicts between Mayhew and Banks. The fortunes improved for Genesis the moment Mayhew was replaced by Collins, so if Banks was behind the move to replace Mayhew, then I would call it good judgement by Banks to replace him.


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 28 2013 at 04:08
John Anthony's rather 'raw' production doesn't help things, especially concerning the drums.......
Perhaps Mayhew was playing material beyond his capabilities, but I don't think his work dragged the album down. Would've been nice had Collins joined at this point, but he didn't. Put it this way, Mayhew was a vast improvement on Jonathan Silver.


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 16:11
Originally posted by Tom Ozric

John Mayhew on 'Trespass' reminds me of Guy Evans on 'The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other'.
...except that Guy played great (i.e. White Hammer) and JM didn't. Wink

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jc


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: December 03 2013 at 16:28
Originally posted by Tom Ozric

John Anthony's rather 'raw' production doesn't help things, especially concerning the drums.......
Perhaps Mayhew was playing material beyond his capabilities, but I don't think his work dragged the album down. Would've been nice had Collins joined at this point, but he didn't. Put it this way, Mayhew was a vast improvement on Jonathan Silver.
 
I definitely agree with you, though, about John Anthony's production. I think he was a fine producer, but those early albums (Trespass, The Least...) did have a muddled murkiness about them. He even admitted years later that his production on Trespass wasn't up to snuff. About a year or so after Trespass, though, he was doing fantastic work on Pawn Hearts which still stands up today.
 
Also agree that JM's drumming didn't ruin the album (not by any stretch). His playing is serviceable. It may not add much to the music, but it doesn't kill it either (kind of like a "game manager" type of backup, 2nd string quarterback [for you U.S. football fans] who isn't going to throw for 300 yards, or make 30 - 40 yard completions, but he's not going to throw interceptions or fumble the ball away either).


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jc


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 06 2013 at 05:46
Originally posted by bucka001

Originally posted by Tom Ozric

John Mayhew on 'Trespass' reminds me of Guy Evans on 'The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other'.


...except that Guy played great (i.e. White Hammer) JM didn't. Wink
I did forget to mention the fact that Guy is leagues ahead of Mayhew in skill and inventiveness. They both had a similar sound though. Thanks John Anthony (who didn't ruin anything btw), I hold both albums in very high regard. Pure works of art.


Posted By: sturoc
Date Posted: December 06 2013 at 08:59
The key difference is Guy Evans continued to play on and has not stopped, John Mayhew did not.
So unless you take a snapshot comparison right at the exact time both were active or anyone else for that matter, Comparisons will mean nothing.

I think this thread is taking on 'dead horse' status now.


Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: December 06 2013 at 10:52
Originally posted by sturoc


So unless you take a snapshot comparison right at the exact time both were active

That's what I was doing (because I thought Tom O was doing that and saying Guy and JM were similar in '70; they weren't, Guy was much better, but I might have misunderstood that Tom was referring to the way both were produced by John Anthony). 


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jc


Posted By: Greta007
Date Posted: July 22 2014 at 05:11
As a drummer of 30 years I think the criticism of JM's drumming is over the top.  "Can't play"?  "Bad"?  Comments like that should be reserved for someone like the Shaggs's drummer when they first started out (Supreme Mistress of the oblique polyrhythm Smile).  Pro musicians are always strong players (at least before ProTools and autotune) and prog players especially so. JM was a damn good drummer, if not in the same league of Phil and Bill (very few are).

John's performance was expressive and helped create atmosphere.  Who cares about a bit of looseness and a bit of tastelessness?  What's wrong with a bit of dirt? Must everything be prissy perfect all the time?  I say this as an old tragic of the most notorious perfectionists around - Crimmo and Uncle Frank. It's not their perfection that I enjoy but their creativity, atmosphere, flair and intelligence.

Trespass has loads of character, arguably more atmospheric than other Genesis releases, and John M was part of that, warts and all. It wasn't all JM's warts either.  Peter G was pitchy at times but that didn't diminish his dynamic performance on the album to my ear either, not to mention fluid timing from the whole band. 

Stagnation is outstanding with that beautiful middle section. Looking for Someone was another great track with fun drums. I don't understand all this talk about him being circumspect either.  He laid out when he was supposed to and when he came in he sounded like he was really hammering those tubs. At times JM reminded me of Moonie (compliment) - crazy call-responses all over the place. Wasn't so keen on his overplaying in Visions of Angels - hardly circumspect - but apparently he didn't arrange the drum parts.  Of course, if we were going to shoot proggers for overreaching, it would be sorry state of affairs LOL

I love Phil's drumming - always did - and I appreciate that Genesis wanted a jazzier, more sophisticated drummer who needed less supervision.  However, I agree with those who doubted that Phil would have improved the album. It's a false assumption. Better is not always better, if you get my drift.


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Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.


Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: July 27 2014 at 08:26
Not as good as Collins obviously, but very few people are. Love the tone he gets on Trespass. Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut, but less in the way of everything, so it fitted with the more airy atmosphere. Overall, glad they got rid of him (was it him or John Silver that was a slow learner/not versatile enough?) Nevertheless, very important to the album and glad this thread was made Smile


Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 16:45
Originally posted by Xonty

. Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut,

This is heresy of the rankest sort.


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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:10
Originally posted by Greta007

As a drummer of 30 years I think the criticism of JM's drumming is over the top.  "Can't play"?  "Bad"?  Comments like that should be reserved for someone like the Shaggs's drummer when they first started out (Supreme Mistress of the oblique polyrhythm Smile).  Pro musicians are always strong players (at least before ProTools and autotune) and prog players especially so. JM was a damn good drummer, if not in the same league of Phil and Bill (very few are).

John's performance was expressive and helped create atmosphere.  Who cares about a bit of looseness and a bit of tastelessness?  What's wrong with a bit of dirt? Must everything be prissy perfect all the time?  I say this as an old tragic of the most notorious perfectionists around - Crimmo and Uncle Frank. It's not their perfection that I enjoy but their creativity, atmosphere, flair and intelligence.

Trespass has loads of character, arguably more atmospheric than other Genesis releases, and John M was part of that, warts and all. It wasn't all JM's warts either.  Peter G was pitchy at times but that didn't diminish his dynamic performance on the album to my ear either, not to mention fluid timing from the whole band. 

Stagnation is outstanding with that beautiful middle section. Looking for Someone was another great track with fun drums. I don't understand all this talk about him being circumspect either.  He laid out when he was supposed to and when he came in he sounded like he was really hammering those tubs. At times JM reminded me of Moonie (compliment) - crazy call-responses all over the place. Wasn't so keen on his overplaying in Visions of Angels - hardly circumspect - but apparently he didn't arrange the drum parts.  Of course, if we were going to shoot proggers for overreaching, it would be sorry state of affairs LOL

I love Phil's drumming - always did - and I appreciate that Genesis wanted a jazzier, more sophisticated drummer who needed less supervision.  However, I agree with those who doubted that Phil would have improved the album. It's a false assumption. Better is not always better, if you get my drift.

I agree with you that saying JM was 'bad' or 'couldn't play' is an unfair assessment. But it's not an either/or situation either. I can say that he just wasn't a very good drummer but it doesn't mean that it's because I like things to be 'perfect' or without a bit of dirt. Genesis weren't the Velvet Underground. The Trespass songs are okay the way they are (JM didn't ruin the album) but they could have been better. JM was closer to Mo Tucker than he was to Phil Collins. But Mo was perfect for the VU; Ringo was perfect for the Beatles; but for the type of music Genesis was doing, JM just didn't cut it and one can hear that. If he was cutting it, he wouldn't have been let go.


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jc


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 19 2014 at 10:16
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy

Originally posted by Xonty

. Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut,

This is heresy of the rankest sort.
I have no idea why Mike Giles is so underappreciated. His timing on Scizhoid Man was simply fantastic. I feel like starting a thread just to address this.  LOL


Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: September 02 2014 at 13:40

It's hard to hear anything on early Genesis albums -  I swear they recorded everything up to the Lamb underwater.  The remasters help a little, but I'm still waiting for versions of the early albums with decent sonic fidelity. 

And, yeah, Mike Giles had great feel - he was no Bruford, but his touch really enhanced ITCOTCK.


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I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....



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