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Rick Wakeman appreciation thread

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85628
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Topic: Rick Wakeman appreciation thread
Posted By: Dellinger
Subject: Rick Wakeman appreciation thread
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 20:25
I don't remember seeing a Rick Wakeman appreciation thread since I've been visiting the forum, so I guess it's time to give it a shot. He is one of my favourite prog artists, and has many of my favourite albums. So, I would like to know what other people think about him.



Replies:
Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 20:36
Hi Dellinger,

I think Rick is a dashingly handsome lad, though getting a bit long in the tooth compared to a kid like Justin Bieber...

As far as his music:

Journey & King Arthur are two of the best albums ever recorded, let alone being keyboard driven albums, I mean as  albums in general.  Wakeman is among the great three keyboardists that I can think of, in no particular order:

Rick Wakeman
Keith Emerson
Tony Banks

YES hit the lottery when they added him on Fragile.

Can't say enough great things about his work.

Rick keep saying that his classic A&M recordings - Henry VIII to White Rock will be remastered from the original masters (first time ever, as all prior CDs of No Earthly Connection & White Rock have come from very clean records).  I continue to wait until that day comes.  That will be a great day indeed!


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: MattGuitat
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 20:49
I, ve never listened to his solo music, but Roundabout was the first time I ever appreciated the keyboard in music and Close to the Edge is the greatest key solo of all time. OF ALL TIME.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 22:18
The things he did with Yes are sure darn solid; the things he did on CTTE and TFTO are just frenetic. I agree with MattGuitat; had it not been for Rick's dynamic and melodic solo, first half of which is really simple to play (something worth appearing in songbooks Big smile), I probably would have never listened to that record ever again.

In case if you haven't heard his "Six Wives of Henry VIII", I highly recommend the following track, which is so prog. My personal favorite that seems to have a lot of soul put into it:



I, honestly, don't know about the rest. If you like an organ losing power and, therefore losing pitch (an effect I have a little interest in Big smile) and if you like Bach, check out this one. At least the version of the album I downloaded had this loss of pitch at the end of Jane Seymour, but it's not like that on YouTube:




Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 23:06
I had "6 Wives" and "Criminal Record" as a teen and loved them...it took me a while to warm to his other
stuff, but I like it now.   I guess when you develop a more classical direction than rock, like I have over
the years, you sometimes appreciate the cleaner more classically-based prog, and his stuff is right
there for that kind of music.   The lyrics and singing are also usually very good.


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 15 2012 at 23:25
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I had "6 Wives" and "Criminal Record" as a teen and loved them...it took me a while to warm to his other
stuff, but I like it now.   I guess when you develop a more classical direction than rock, like I have over
the years, you sometimes appreciate the cleaner more classically-based prog, and his stuff is right
there for that kind of music.   The lyrics and singing are also usually very good.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe I should start a thread on the possible branching of appreciation: if you get record #1, you will probably get record #2, but you will never understand record #3 or something like that.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 01:46
I think I appreciate him more as a personality than a musician. He went through a distinctly weird phase around about 1980 when his personal problems (booze) seemed to overtake him. I remember him saying he was bankrupt but couldn't understand why ( I guess the 7 Rollers he purchased might have had something to do with it). What I really like about Rick is that he's a proper bloke. Enjoys his currys and the ermm aforementioned booze. Likes to moan about the government and stuff. He is also a commited Christian which even makes him a bit enigmatic.
 
Over the years I've collected various CD's and DVD's (you virtually can't avoid bumping into them there are so many) and seen him live (solo, with Yes and also the stand up routine). Great fun really.
 
The albums I like the most are 6 Wives , Criminal Record and King Arthur. All of those rank alongside the best keyboard based prog albums ever made. I have also given positive reviews to the Retro albums whihc have been unfairly overlooked/dismissed by many fans. OK they have Mr Holt 'singing' on them but there is much to enjoy depsite that. I also love the recent Six Wives DVD.
 
Overall I feel that Rick could have achieved a lot more than he has. Too many medicore releases would be a kind way of putting it. Those few gems make it for it though.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 01:59
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I think I appreciate him more as a personality than a musician. He went through a distinctly weird phase around about 1980 when his personal problems (booze) seemed to overtake him. I remember him saying he was bankrupt but couldn't understand why ( I guess the 7 Rollers he purchased might have had something to do with it). What I really like about Rick is that he's a proper bloke. Enjoys his currys and the ermm aforementioned booze. Likes to moan about the government and stuff. He is also a commited Christian which even makes him a bit enigmatic.
 
Over the years I've collected various CD's and DVD's (you virtually can't avoid bumping into them there are so many) and seen him live (solo, with Yes and also the stand up routine). Great fun really.
 
The albums I like the most are 6 Wives , Criminal Record and King Arthur. All of those rank alongside the best keyboard based prog albums ever made. I have also given positive reviews to the Retro albums whihc have been unfairly overlooked/dismissed by many fans. OK they have Mr Holt 'singing' on them but there is much to enjoy depsite that. I also love the recent Six Wives DVD.
 
Overall I feel that Rick could have achieved a lot more than he has. Too many medicore releases would be a kind way of putting it. Those few gems make it for it though.

I don't know. I think Rick achieved enough as a keyboardist in his lifetime. He has his own classic solos. How far can he really get? Give the man a break Big smile (my actual smile is more genuine than that one) .


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 02:06
Probably the most-technically gifted keyboard player of the Rock era, though Emerson and Ritchie are/were better in many other respects.


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 08:07
Originally posted by MattGuitat MattGuitat wrote:

I, ve never listened to his solo music, but Roundabout was the first time I ever appreciated the keyboard in music and Close to the Edge is the greatest key solo of all time. OF ALL TIME.
Hey MG, Smile
 
I know others will have a different take, but I think if you get the following, your bliss will be guaranteed:
 
Journey To The Center of the Earth(Not "Return....")  - A live album no less, there was never a studio version.
The Myths & Ledgends of King Arthur - get this a crank it up loud!
6 Wives & Henry VIII - no vocals, all instrumental  with Chris Squire & Alan White
 
others to think about if you have the $$$:
 
Rick Wakeman's Criminal Record - Instrumental with Chris Squire & Alan White
White Rock - Instrumental, all Rick
No Earthly Connection - I love this one, some fans don't seem to so much.  Kinda spacey, buit tons of great synths!
 
As brainstormer has said, there is a big classical influence in his works.  If classical isn't you thing and you prefer a more jazz or fusion, that obvioulsy that makes this a different story.
 
For me, I love the classical stuff that Rick works with.


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 08:11
Tha man himself at a very rainy Cropredy Festival 2 years ago:



Played a stunning 90 minute set & despite the bulldog-chewing-a-wasp expression on the lady in the foreground, he went down a storm (appropriate for the weekend's weather that year), especially when he encored with Starship Trooper.

Most recently saw him on the duet tour with Jon Anderson last year; plenty of banter between the two, some great music (plus some reallllly banal ballads...), overall a great evening.


-------------

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 09:00
Yaaaehhh Rick Wakeman!!!

Thanks to him I was into prog before I got really into prog.  The culprits:



I got the LPs through Columbia Record House club.  Gatefold covers and LP size booklets!!!Big smile


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 09:25
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Yaaaehhh Rick Wakeman!!!

Thanks to him I was into prog before I got really into prog.  The culprits:

Journey & King Arthur (edit...)

I got the LPs through Columbia Record House club.  Gatefold covers and LP size booklets!!!Big smile
Dear Slartibartfast,
 
Your taste in music is exceptional, now if you will please resize your avatar to more of a vertical rectangle to show off
more of that great tuxedo you are wearing....Big smile    The way you have it cropped as a square dosen't do the original justice.Wink
 
Just out of curiosity:
 
What do you think of No Earthly Connection?
 


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 09:56
That's something I'd really like to get my hands on.  I've never heard it. 

I've have White Rock and Rhapsodies on LP.  I go Criminal Record on CD (had LP) as soon as I could.

Regarding the avatar, it is taken from our wedding cake topper that I concocted:
Mounted them to foamcore and cut out to make a sort of 3D thingy. LOL





-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 10:17
Rick is my second favourite keyboardist behind Mr.Anthony Banks. My favourite Wakeman moment is the Eclipse section of And You And I. I am just awestruck on how they could have composed that piece of music. Surely the most epic, cathartic and beautiful chord progressions and melodies that I've ever heard

-------------


Posted By: rupert
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 10:50
I've never been a Yes-Fan, but this is surely not due to Rick Wakeman - it's got more to do with Jon Anderson !!!
Having said this, I'm highly treasuring Rick a very fine musician because of his contributions to other projects:
"Morning has broken" f.e., where he and Cat Stevens made the perfect duo on piano,
or the ( rather unexpected cause very simplistic ) performances Rick added to "Electric Warrior" ( T. Rex ).
This may be strange for a lover of his Yes-output, but I had to say it: Rick is fabulous !
I'd like to have him play on my songs, too Tongue !


-------------
...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 13:12
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Regarding the avatar, it is taken from our wedding cake topper that I concocted:

 
Yes, I know we chatted about your avatar in a different thread.Tongue   This forum allows tall pictures, you should be able to recrop your picture to show the entire icon of you in your tux.  That is what I am sayin...
 
Re Wakeman:  I love No Earthly Connection and consider it required Wakeman, but I know No Earthly Connection is hit or miss with other Wakeman fans.Ouch


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 13:29
Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 13:45
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.
 
Hola Chico de Miko, Tongue       Wink
 
 
Criminal Record to me, is priceless.  Big smile
 
On a serious note:  Laz is an example as why I as an American genuinley am happy that we have Brits here in this forum,
that is to teach me words I have never heard before, such as:
 
"dross"   I had to google that...
 
dross - British - coal of little value.
 
Exactly, some of Wakeman's records, like "I'm so straight I'm a weirdo" from Rock N' Roll Prophet are pure dross.  I actually bought that garbage LP record when it came out and 30 years later I still can not believe he would publish such mierda.(Spanish, kiddies...)  Angry   Ouch    Unhappy


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 13:54
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.


1984? LOL


-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 14:14
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.


1984? LOL

Indeed!Tongue


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 14:15
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.
 
Hola Chico de Miko, Tongue       Wink
 
 
Criminal Record to me, is priceless.  Big smile
 
On a serious note:  Laz is an example as why I as an American genuinley am happy that we have Brits here in this forum,
that is to teach me words I have never heard before, such as:
 
"dross"   I had to google that...
 
dross - British - coal of little value.
 
Exactly, some of Wakeman's records, like "I'm so straight I'm a weirdo" from Rock N' Roll Prophet are pure dross.  I actually bought that garbage LP record when it came out and 30 years later I still can not believe he would publish such mierda.(Spanish, kiddies...)  Angry   Ouch    Unhappy

And to think, we gave the world a language to be forgotten and abusedLOL


-------------
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 15:12
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

And to think, we gave the world a language to be forgotten and abusedLOL
 
I prefer to think that we Yanks have "fine-tuned" the King's English a bit.Wink
And no, nothing we American's have done has come close to the complete trashing of English
that your own "Cockney" subculture has done!
 
At least we Americans got rid of all those "Ye and Thou" silly words. Big smile
 
Oh, about Rick:
 
I don't think 1984 is that bad. If you drop the songs with vocals, and you splice together all the instrumentals from 1984,
you have around 18 minutes of pure Wakeman classical & Orchestral magic!  Tongue   Smile


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 15:59
I put in an order for a used copy of that at half.com.  Many days passed before it arrived and I was about to report it.  It came from somewhere in Russia.  Had some pretty cool stamps on it and was wrapped in old typing paper with Cryllic typing on it.  I think it was a pirate copy.  Anyway, for all of that it was really disappointing musically. LOL

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 16:04
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I put in an order for a used copy of that at half.com.  Many days passed before it arrived and I was about to report it.  It came from somewhere in Russia.  Had some pretty cool stamps on it and was wrapped in old typing paper with Cryllic typing on it.  I think it was a pirate copy.  Anyway, for all of that it was really disappointing musically. LOL

Aw, we are sorry Big smile .


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 17:17
By the way Shock A Con also puts in an appearance on the recent Return To Forever, sorry Chaka, you are no Flora or fauna...

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 21:43
My very favourite albums from him are 6 Wives and Arthur, and for me they are some of the very best prog albums. Arthur may just as well be the album guilty of getting me into prog. I first heard it because a friend from High School lent me a cassette copy of it, she said it was just their at her house (from her parents, I guess). I copied it, and was rather intrigued by it... of course I had now idea what it was, nor who Rick Wakeman was, nor what prog was, and it was all rather weird and old fashioned, and had all this ridiculous "humorous" bits or whatever, but still I was intrigued, and came back to it some times. Of course, later I discovered Wakeman wasn't the singer, but the keyboard player, and he was considered among the best keyboard player in rock (and prog), and he was famous for being in the band "Yes"... well then I thought Yes was a mediocre little known band, perhaps just a one hit wonder with "Owner of a Lonely Heart"... but whatever. Still, now Arthur is among my favourite albums, and I no longer can hearr that "old fashioned" thing that bother me, though I still can't get into the "Chaplin-like" part on the middle of Merlin... but the rest of the album is sublime, and the title song is among my favourite prog songs. Six Wives is also a perfect album for me... a survivor poll for this album would be some kind of Hell for me... just no way I could choose any song below (or above) any other, they are all great.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 21:49
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

I had "6 Wives" and "Criminal Record" as a teen and loved them...it took me a while to warm to his other stuff, but I like it now.   I guess when you develop a more classical direction than rock, like I have overthe years, you sometimes appreciate the cleaner more classically-based prog, and his stuff is rightthere for that kind of music.   The lyrics and singing are also usually very good.


I also like Criminal Record a lot. I find it very similar to 6 wives, specially the first 3 songs... plus they are almost some Yes songs (with Squire and White performing on them). Judas Iscariot is also an awsome piece of music, with the Church organ thing, and the choirs... really amazing (though perhaps a tiny bit overlong for it's own good). The Breathalizer is the one song I don't like at all on this album, and it's the main reason I don't consider it at the same level as 6 wives. I was lucky enough to get this album (as a matter of fact, a store at my city was able to find it for me), though weirdly enough, it was recorded with "Journey to the Centre of the Earth" in the same CD (as a duo album), which I already had... however, I still think it would have made more sense if it had been paired with 6 wives instead of Journey.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 21:57
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I think I appreciate him more as a personality than a musician. He went through a distinctly weird phase around about 1980 when his personal problems (booze) seemed to overtake him. I remember him saying he was bankrupt but couldn't understand why ( I guess the 7 Rollers he purchased might have had something to do with it). What I really like about Rick is that he's a proper bloke. Enjoys his currys and the ermm aforementioned booze. Likes to moan about the government and stuff. He is also a commited Christian which even makes him a bit enigmatic.
 

Over the years I've collected various CD's and DVD's (you virtually can't avoid bumping into them there are so many) and seen him live (solo, with Yes and also the stand up routine). Great fun really.

 

The albums I like the most are 6 Wives , Criminal Record and King Arthur. All of those rank alongside the best keyboard based prog albums ever made. I have also given positive reviews to the Retro albums whihc have been unfairly overlooked/dismissed by many fans. OK they have Mr Holt 'singing' on them but there is much to enjoy depsite that. I also love the recent Six Wives DVD.

 

Overall I feel that Rick could have achieved a lot more than he has. Too many medicore releases would be a kind way of putting it. Those few gems make it for it though.

I don't know. I think Rick achieved enough as a keyboardist in his lifetime. He has his own classic solos. How far can he really get? Give the man a break Big smile (my actual smile is more genuine than that one) .


Those three are also my favourite Wakeman albums... perhaps I could throw in Journey and Out There too. I also liked the Retro albums quiet a bit, though not as good as the other albums mentioned, I think Wakeman proved he still has the prog flame burning brightly, and there are some wonderful prog songs in both albums, specially "Just another Day" and "The Temple of Life" (along with "Cathedral in the Sky", from Out There) are among my favourite prog songs from the last decade, as good as anything from the 70's. Oh, and "The Temple of Life" features Jemma Wakeman on lead vocals, his doughter, who did a very fine job at singing here. All in all, perhaps if Wakeman had made only one "Retro" album, with the best songs from both, he might have achieved another 5 star masterpiece.


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 22:18
Great thread!  Few give Rick the credit for being the first electronic keyboardist to stack up lots of keyboards in the studio & onstage, back in the days when most prog & rock keyboardists seemed to be stuck with only Hammond organ with a Mini-Moog plopped on top!   

When I first saw Rick on the CTTE tour, I couldn't believe how he could fluidly play two sets of keys, one in front & one behind!  (only later did I realize that this was classical English church pipe-organ technique).  



Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 22:24
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Tha man himself at a very rainy Cropredy Festival 2 years ago:



Played a stunning 90 minute set & despite the bulldog-chewing-a-wasp expression on the lady in the foreground, he went down a storm (appropriate for the weekend's weather that year), especially when he encored with Starship Trooper.

Most recently saw him on the duet tour with Jon Anderson last year; plenty of banter between the two, some great music (plus some reallllly banal ballads...), overall a great evening.


I'm afraid I have missed many concerts I would have liked to see, many of which because I discovered the bands a bit (or not so bit) too late. But at least I'm grateful enough that I was able to go to Wakeman's performance of 6 Wives at Hampton Court, with orchestra and all (and that's the CD version I have of that concert, for they recorded it and sold it after the show... with great sound quality I may add). It was particularly great for me that I was able to attend to that concert, considering that I live in Mexico, and was able to schedule some holidays I had planned to Europe on the date of the concert so I could attend

I really love that concert, by the way. It may be the best concert experience I have attended along with Waters' "The Wall".


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 22:50
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Yaaaehhh Rick Wakeman!!!Thanks to him I was into prog before I got really into prog.  The culprits:Journey & King Arthur (edit...)I got the LPs through Columbia Record House club.  Gatefold covers and LP size booklets!!!Big smile



Dear Slartibartfast,
 

Your taste in music is exceptional, now if you will please resize your avatar to more of a vertical rectangle to show off

more of that great tuxedo you are wearing....Big smile    The way you have it cropped as a square dosen't do the original justice.Wink

 

Just out of curiosity:

 

What do you think of No Earthly Connection?

 


Even though that last question was not directed at me, here I go. I was actually a bit dissapointed with "No Earthly Connection". I already knew "The Prisoner" before (which I like a lot), and some live bits, but when I got the album, I found it sort of patchy. There were lots of great musical ideas, but I feel they were not fully developed nor properly organized throughout the "epic" centerpiece of the album. I liked much better the "shortened" version on the live album "Out of the Blue"... that one has all the best bits from the epic, and I may say better organized (even though I would have prefered if that live version had included "The Realization" at the end, instead of "The Prisoner"). I'm also looking forward to getting the live BBC recordings from Rick, which include concerts from Earthly Connection era, and I'm hoping it will include better organized versions from those songs.

Oh, and my version of "No Earthly Connection" came coupled with "Cost of Living", which was, well, listenable. Not on par with his best work, but from time to time it may be enjoyable.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 22:54
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


And to think, we gave the world a language to be forgotten and abusedLOL




 

I prefer to think that we Yanks have "fine-tuned" the King's English a bit.Wink

And no, nothing we American's have done has come close to the complete trashing of English

that your own "Cockney" subculture has done!

 

At least we Americans got rid of all those "Ye and Thou" silly words. Big smile

 

Oh, about Rick:

 

I don't think 1984 is that bad. If you drop the songs with vocals, and you splice together all the instrumentals from 1984,

you have around 18 minutes of pure Wakeman classical & Orchestral magic!  Tongue   Smile


I didn't think 1984 was so bad an album either. Even some of the vocal songs are pretty decent... but still his 70's touch was gone (for the moment).


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 16 2012 at 23:36
I found this quote on the YouTube Arthur post:

"Like Wagner, this is a perfect marriage of sound and subject matter. If your subject matter is sex and drugs and teenage rebellion, you probably want some edgy, punky sound. You do not, however, take on a subject like Arthur without expressing grandeur in the music. This is why some people find the music of Wakeman or countless other progressive rock acts overblown."

http://www.youtube.com/user/manlyduckling" rel="nofollow - manlyduckling 11 months ago

Thought that was pretty apt.  That old "greasy spoon" aesthetic used to try to make proggers feel

guilty for not sounding like Lou Reed and singing songs about "real life," which always had to be

about something depressing.  But I think this Manly Duckling really speaks truth to the old debate

about the value of prog.




-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 03:17
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I think I appreciate him more as a personality than a musician. He went through a distinctly weird phase around about 1980 when his personal problems (booze) seemed to overtake him. I remember him saying he was bankrupt but couldn't understand why ( I guess the 7 Rollers he purchased might have had something to do with it). What I really like about Rick is that he's a proper bloke. Enjoys his currys and the ermm aforementioned booze. Likes to moan about the government and stuff. He is also a commited Christian which even makes him a bit enigmatic.
 
Over the years I've collected various CD's and DVD's (you virtually can't avoid bumping into them there are so many) and seen him live (solo, with Yes and also the stand up routine). Great fun really.
 
The albums I like the most are 6 Wives , Criminal Record and King Arthur. All of those rank alongside the best keyboard based prog albums ever made. I have also given positive reviews to the Retro albums whihc have been unfairly overlooked/dismissed by many fans. OK they have Mr Holt 'singing' on them but there is much to enjoy depsite that. I also love the recent Six Wives DVD.
 
Overall I feel that Rick could have achieved a lot more than he has. Too many medicore releases would be a kind way of putting it. Those few gems make it for it though.

I don't know. I think Rick achieved enough as a keyboardist in his lifetime. He has his own classic solos. How far can he really get? Give the man a break Big smile (my actual smile is more genuine than that one) .
A little unfair as I was only lamenting that he hadn't done more with his wonderful God given talent. I think he has been derailed with ex wife issues and booze. I also gave positive reviews of both Retro albums so I think I have have given the man more of a break than manyWink
What I do respect about Rick and also Steve Hackett a few others is that he didn't just rely on Yes(or Genesis in Steve's case) as some sort of pension plan and struck out on his own and was succesfull at it. Just that hundred odd albums later only a small handfull are actually that good of the ones I've heard and judging by the comments so far on this thread once you get past Six Wives, Journey, White Rock, Criminal Record and Arthur there isn't a lot else to get excited about.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 03:39
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

A little unfair as I was only lamenting that he hadn't done more with his wonderful God given talent. I think he has been derailed with ex wife issues and booze. I also gave positive reviews of both Retro albums so I think I have have given the man more of a break than manyWink
What I do respect about Rick and also Steve Hackett a few others is that he didn't just rely on Yes(or Genesis in Steve's case) as some sort of pension plan and struck out on his own and was succesfull at it. Just that hundred odd albums later only a small handfull are actually that good of the ones I've heard and judging by the comments so far on this thread once you get past Six Wives, Journey, White Rock, Criminal Record and Arthur there isn't a lot else to get excited about.

No offense, but if I were you, I would try not to use words like 'fair' and 'unfair' because, after all, Rick is a human being who is in charge of his own life and music and does not have to feel indebted to his fanbase.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 04:32
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

A little unfair as I was only lamenting that he hadn't done more with his wonderful God given talent. I think he has been derailed with ex wife issues and booze. I also gave positive reviews of both Retro albums so I think I have have given the man more of a break than manyWink
What I do respect about Rick and also Steve Hackett a few others is that he didn't just rely on Yes(or Genesis in Steve's case) as some sort of pension plan and struck out on his own and was succesfull at it. Just that hundred odd albums later only a small handfull are actually that good of the ones I've heard and judging by the comments so far on this thread once you get past Six Wives, Journey, White Rock, Criminal Record and Arthur there isn't a lot else to get excited about.

No offense, but if I were you, I would try not to use words like 'fair' and 'unfair' because, after all, Rick is a human being who is in charge of his own life and music and does not have to feel indebted to his fanbase.

If you are a musician making a living off of music then you do have a certain obligation to your fanbase to make good music.  But musicians have their hits and misses.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.  No guts, no glory.  Rick is one of those prolific guys who is all over the place.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 10:26
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

A little unfair as I was only lamenting that he hadn't done more with his wonderful God given talent. I think he has been derailed with ex wife issues and booze. I also gave positive reviews of both Retro albums so I think I have have given the man more of a break than manyWink
What I do respect about Rick and also Steve Hackett a few others is that he didn't just rely on Yes(or Genesis in Steve's case) as some sort of pension plan and struck out on his own and was succesfull at it. Just that hundred odd albums later only a small handfull are actually that good of the ones I've heard and judging by the comments so far on this thread once you get past Six Wives, Journey, White Rock, Criminal Record and Arthur there isn't a lot else to get excited about.

No offense, but if I were you, I would try not to use words like 'fair' and 'unfair' because, after all, Rick is a human being who is in charge of his own life and music and does not have to feel indebted to his fanbase.
 
Ouch
I am not offended just now extremely annoyed at you and your condascending attitude . As far as Rick goes he can do what he likes and makes a hundred more albums and I can choose not to buy them.
Just exactly what is your point?


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 10:39
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
Overall I feel that Rick could have achieved a lot more than he has. Too many medicore releases would be a kind way of putting it. Those few gems make it for it though.


I agree.
My favorite Rick Wakeman albums are: Journey To The Centre Of The Earth and Criminal Record.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 11:52
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

A little unfair as I was only lamenting that he hadn't done more with his wonderful God given talent. I think he has been derailed with ex wife issues and booze. I also gave positive reviews of both Retro albums so I think I have have given the man more of a break than manyWink
What I do respect about Rick and also Steve Hackett a few others is that he didn't just rely on Yes(or Genesis in Steve's case) as some sort of pension plan and struck out on his own and was succesfull at it. Just that hundred odd albums later only a small handfull are actually that good of the ones I've heard and judging by the comments so far on this thread once you get past Six Wives, Journey, White Rock, Criminal Record and Arthur there isn't a lot else to get excited about.

No offense, but if I were you, I would try not to use words like 'fair' and 'unfair' because, after all, Rick is a human being who is in charge of his own life and music and does not have to feel indebted to his fanbase.
 
Ouch
I am not offended just now extremely annoyed at you and your condascending attitude . As far as Rick goes he can do what he likes and makes a hundred more albums and I can choose not to buy them.
Just exactly what is your point?

I do not know how you got the impression of my condescending attitude, but if so, then I sincerely apologize. You are right, you can choose what album to buy or not to buy, but I just don't like the idea of zapping Rick on this. I'm just very new to this kind of topic and has only developed a perspective. Everyone makes mistakes at some point or another.


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 12:55
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

My very favourite albums from him are 6 Wives and Arthur, and for me they are some of the very best prog albums. Arthur may just as well be the album guilty of getting me into prog. I first heard it because a friend from High School.


Unbelievable, my friend. Smile    The same exact thing happened to me, but some years back.

King Arthur got me into Prog.  I had a music appreciation class in High School, 1st year.  The teacher played
a bunch of rock from that period and most of Wakeman's King Arthur.  I was fascinated from that moment on,
and the rest was history.

I do think that Arthur & Journey are masterpieces and will be exciting people young & old for as long as we have a civilized society.

I am looking forward to being 80 years old and inviting neighborhood kids over and blasting King Arthur
on my stereo for them!

Big smile






-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 17 2012 at 14:38
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

My very favourite albums from him are 6 Wives and Arthur, and for me they are some of the very best prog albums. Arthur may just as well be the album guilty of getting me into prog. I first heard it because a friend from High School.
Unbelievable, my friend. Smile    The same exact thing happened to me, but some years back.King Arthur got me into Prog.  I had a music appreciation class in High School, 1st year.  The teacher playeda bunch of rock from that period and most of Wakeman's King Arthur.  I was fascinated from that moment on,and the rest was history.I do think that Arthur & Journey are masterpieces and will be exciting people young & old for as long as we have a civilized society.I am looking forward to being 80 years old and inviting neighborhood kids over and blasting King Arthuron my stereo for them!Big smile



I do like Journey very much too, but I think Arthur is better. There are some very good moments on Journey, but I feel it's a bit patchy, and some ideas were repeated (some passages appear almos exactly the same twice), there's too much of a narrator in the middle of the songs... and well, the two, or four, big songs could have been divided more succesfully into shorter songs... but then, I guess Wakeman was going for a "single musical piece" experience, and didn't bother so much on the way it was divided.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 18 2012 at 04:05
Played King Arthur yesterday. Great synth solos and lots of goosebump moments.Not sure about some of the drumming though.Wink
Journey is one that never could warm to for some reason but I havn't heard it for a long time.


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 18 2012 at 11:10
Check out the CD or DVD "Out There."



-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 00:29
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Played King Arthur yesterday. Great synth solos and lots of goosebump moments.Not sure about some of the drumming though.Wink
Journey is one that never could warm to for some reason but I havn't heard it for a long time.

Gary Pickford-Hopkins from the band Wild Turkey was a rather odd choice for vocalist!  He was fantastic in WT, but I thought he weakened Journey.  

Been listening to TFTO remaster quite a bit lately, Rick did some remarkable things on that, considering how hostile he was to the whole effort!  

If he had fully signed onto Tales, oh my.....


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 07:06
I can't give the King total credit for getting me into prog, but it was, uh, instrumental.LOL

The vocals didn't put me off at all.  Anyone else find the Return Journey as disappointing as I did? 


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:39
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I can't give the King total credit for getting me into prog, but it was, uh, instrumental.LOL

The vocals didn't put me off at all.  Anyone else find the Return Journey as disappointing as I did? 
 
Count me in.
 
I find "Return" unlistenable mostly due to the lifeless, too loud, mechanical, overly processed drumming.  Straight 4/4 drumming with the snare always on the beat and mixed up too loud ruins music for me.  I did really enjoy The Dance of 1000 Lights though.  I am not a fan of Trevor Rabin as he overproduces and commercializes songs.  I think Rick made a fatal error picking Trevor.  I think the magic of Journey & Henry VIII & Arthur was due to the collarobarative effort of all instruments. Those records had great blanace among bass, guitar, vocals & drums.  The perfect foundation to showcase
all of Rick's keyboard wizardry.
 
Someone said he didn't like the drumming in King Arthur.  I LOVE the drumming in King Arthur.  I love all the in between the beat tom tom fills and progressive beats that were NOT straight 4/4 mixed way too loud like some pop rock song.
The drumming in King Arthur & Journey is what was lacking from "Return" as well as Trevor's overly-sanitised & produced songs.  Just my $.02.
 
Smile
 
P.S.  Hey Slarti, how do you like my new avatar?  I got tired of waiting for you to add a full length version in yours.Wink


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:46
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Played King Arthur yesterday. Great synth solos and lots of goosebump moments.Not sure about some of the drumming though.Wink
Journey is one that never could warm to for some reason but I havn't heard it for a long time.

Gary Pickford-Hopkins from the band Wild Turkey was a rather odd choice for vocalist!  He was fantastic in WT, but I thought he weakened Journey.  
 
 
WTF Chuck???
 
First, nice chatting with you again.Big smile
 
Second:  The drums on King Arthur are one of that record's strongest assets.  Tongue (IMHO)
 
Thrid: "Journey" is a true masterpiece!  What is it?  Does the female chorale put you off?
 
Fourth: Gary Pickford-Hopkins delicate voice was a perfect compliment to Ashley Holt's strong & gruffy voice.
I always thought that pair were perfect.  I thought No Earthly Connection missed that balance.
 
Boy do you and me have issues to settle!Wink


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"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:11
I still haven't made a connection with that album.  Hey why do I get the feeling my identity has been stolen? LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:28
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I still haven't made a connection with that album.  Hey why do I get the feeling my identity has been stolen? LOL
 
Uh, wait until you get the call from your accountant & credit card company.Wink
 
Haven't connected with "Return..."  Why didn't you like it?
 


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I still haven't made a connection with that album.  Hey why do I get the feeling my identity has been stolen? LOL

Something crazy has happened


Posted By: Gonzo Daily
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 14:31
On the Gonzo Blog this fine spring afternoon, a repost of a review of the fine new album by Yes stalwarts Jon Anderson and Rick Wakeman.
http://gonzo-multimedia.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/andersonwakeman-repost-living-tree-in.html" rel="nofollow - http://gonzo-multimedia.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/andersonwakeman-repost-living-tree-in.html


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 17:25
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I still haven't made a connection with that album.  Hey why do I get the feeling my identity has been stolen? LOL
 
Uh, wait until you get the call from your accountant & credit card company.Wink
 
Haven't connected with "Return..."  Why didn't you like it?
 

I never got a copy of it so I don't know if I'd like or not. LOL I think it's still out of print.  Nix that it is available as an import, I'm just broke. LOL

Yeah, I hate to say but my identity isn't worth squat these days and you may just lose money on it.

I just noticed the white bits at the bottom kind of look like genitals.  You should make them pink. LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 21:12
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


I never got a copy of it so I don't know if I'd like or not. LOL I think it's still out of print.  Nix that it is available as an import, I'm just broke. LOL


You aren't missing much, "Return...." is full of over-processed straight 4/4 commercial songs.  Too bad really.

Actually I think the bottom part clearly shows the two feet, nothing more.  Man do you have a dirty mind.LOL


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"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 22:47
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I can't give the King total credit for getting me into prog, but it was, uh, instrumental.LOLThe vocals didn't put me off at all.  Anyone else find the Return Journey as disappointing as I did? 



 

Count me in.

 

I find "Return" unlistenable mostly due to the lifeless, too loud, mechanical, overly processed drumming.  Straight 4/4 drumming with the snare always on the beat and mixed up too loud ruins music for me.  I did really enjoy The Dance of 1000 Lights though.  I am not a fan of Trevor Rabin as he overproduces and commercializes songs.  I think Rick made a fatal error picking Trevor.  I think the magic of Journey & Henry VIII & Arthur was due to the collarobarative effort of all instruments. Those records had great blanace among bass, guitar, vocals & drums.  The perfect foundation to showcase

all of Rick's keyboard wizardry.

 

Someone said he didn't like the drumming in King Arthur.  I LOVE the drumming in King Arthur.  I love all the in between the beat tom tom fills and progressive beats that were NOT straight 4/4 mixed way too loud like some pop rock song.

The drumming in King Arthur & Journey is what was lacking from "Return" as well as Trevor's overly-sanitised & produced songs.  Just my $.02.

 

Smile

 

P.S.  Hey Slarti, how do you like my new avatar?  I got tired of waiting for you to add a full length version in yours.Wink


As a matter of fact, I did find Return to the Center of the Earth very OK. Not as great as the original, but it still had it's moments, specially the overture and the end. And The Kill was pretty cool too. I also somewhat liked "Buried Alive" and "Never is a long, long time"; however, you may be interested in the version of "Buried Alive" from the live album "Out of the Blue"... as a matter of fact that album is very good, or the DVD "Live in Argentina" (or Buenos Aires... I don't remember), which is taken from the same concerts, but doesn't have exactly the same setlist... as a matter of fact, "Out of the Blue" includes a killer (if shortende) version of "No Earthly Connection".


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 19 2012 at 22:51
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

Check out the CD or DVD "Out There."



Indeed, on of my favourites, and that album (along with the Retro ones) showed that Rick could still prog on the last decade. I hope he may still give us a few surprises this decade.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 00:48
Wakeman is responsible for bringing me into Prog, and I like many of his albums:

  1. Myths & Legends
  2. Six Wives
  3. Journey
  4. Criminal Record
  5. Return to the Centre of the Earth
  6. No Earthly Connection
  7. Softsword
  8. 1984
  9. Stella Bianca alla Corte de Re Ferdinando
  10. Black Knights at the Court of Ferdinand IV
Iván


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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 04:23
Of all the members of Yes who embarked on solo projects, Wakeman's early work set a level of expectation that he couldn't possibly hope to sustain: Six Wives, King Arthur and No Earthly Connection are all brilliantly executed slices of bombastic, over the top, flamboyant top grade cheese in my estimation and I love 'em to bits (whereas I've never cared for either Journey or Lisztomania) Thereafter alas, he degenerated into fondant new age piano drivel or brazen exploitation to get credulous Yes fans to empty their pockets for freshly minted 'rare obscurities'
Brilliant keyboard player, brilliant arranger, funny guy and crassly fleecing oink all rolled into one.


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Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 06:57
For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 07:57
So how many people do we have so far that credit something from Rick's solo work for getting them into prog?  I think we're up to four.  No surprise really as his first solo efforts were concept albums and that is almost a defining feature of prog.

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 08:08
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.

I prefer him on Strat.


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http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: progresssaurus
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 08:25

 

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

So how many people do we have so far that credit something from Rick's solo work for getting them into prog? 

Rick's "classic" albums (Six wives ..., Journey ... , Myths and legends ... , No connection ..., White rock) are getting me into prog too. Together with King Crimson, ELP, Focus, Genesis, Collegium Musicum ...

He is one unique and authentic prog sound-face from many sound-faces of prog for me. 





Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 08:31
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.

I prefer him on Strat.

His kazoo work is his finest.


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 15:11
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.

I prefer him on Strat.

His kazoo work is his finest.
 
And his prowess on the pennywhistle is nothing to sneer at, eh? Big smile


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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:15
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Wakeman is responsible for bringing me into Prog, and I like many of his albums:
  1. Myths & Legends
  2. Six Wives
  3. Journey
  4. Criminal Record
  5. Return to the Centre of the Earth
  6. No Earthly Connection
  7. Softsword
  8. 1984
  9. Stella Bianca alla Corte de Re Ferdinando
  10. Black Knights at the Court of Ferdinand IV
Iván


From this list, the one album I don't know is "Softsword"... should I get it? I think it called for my attention some time ago, but didn't go on to buy it.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Of all the members of Yes who embarked on solo projects, Wakeman's early work set a level of expectation that he couldn't possibly hope to sustain: Six Wives, King Arthur and No Earthly Connection are all brilliantly executed slices of bombastic, over the top, flamboyant top grade cheese in my estimation and I love 'em to bits (whereas I've never cared for either Journey or Lisztomania) Thereafter alas, he degenerated into fondant new age piano drivel or brazen exploitation to get credulous Yes fans to empty their pockets for freshly minted 'rare obscurities'Brilliant keyboard player, brilliant arranger, funny guy and crassly fleecing oink all rolled into one.



Perhaps you would like to check out "Out There", a real return to prog from Wakeman on the 2000's. Perhaps even the "Retro" albums, or "Return to the Center of the Earth" itself... though I find "Out There" the best of the bunch easily, but at least they are all prog once again, whether good or not depends on the listener.

Oh yeah, and as an arranger, I do like what Wakeman is capable of doing. He can play any of his songs live with whatever line-up he has at his disposal, and most of the time he won't use recordings of the orchestrations or chorals or whatever, but play it with the instruments he has available... and it really works brilliantly. Or, if he is playing with Yes and they choose to have him add piano or keyboard solos, I'll really love the result.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:20
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.


I really like Wakeman much better on Piano than Emerson... as a matter of fact, even though I like many songs from ELP a lot, in general I like Wakeman's work better than Emerson's.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 20 2012 at 20:52
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Wakeman is responsible for bringing me into Prog, and I like many of his albums:
  1. Myths & Legends
  2. Six Wives
  3. Journey
  4. Criminal Record
  5. Return to the Centre of the Earth
  6. No Earthly Connection
  7. Softsword
  8. 1984
  9. Stella Bianca alla Corte de Re Ferdinando
  10. Black Knights at the Court of Ferdinand IV
Iván


From this list, the one album I don't know is "Softsword"... should I get it? I think it called for my attention some time ago, but didn't go on to buy it.

A review explains better

BTW: I originally reviewed it with 3 stars (I was more close to new sounds in 2005), I modified my review and rating for 4 stars.

Quote RICK WAKEMAN was the first Prog legend who came to Perú back in September 1991 so there was easy to find information about him in the newspapers and among it I read he had released recently an album called "Softsword - King John and the Magna Charter", the name instantly brought to my memory the early stages of his career after a decade full of New Age releases, so the day I went for my concert tickets also bought the album sadly my first impression was negative.

It's true that the album had some moments but still not in the level of Rick's first albums, but slowly the album started gaining me.

Now I believe I can judge it with a clear perspective and what I see is a musician who had lost the path of his career trying to regain the respect of his fans who had abandoned him, and honestly he did a nice job, the album is at least satisfying.

The opener "Magna Charter is a 12:16 minutes epic that clearly reminds of "Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table", the whole bombastic sound that I loved so much when learning about Prog is back, the track is very solid despite the poor vocals by Chrissie Hammond (Well, Wakeman was never accurate when choosing vocalists) and the programmed percussion, some excellent changes and a coherent atmosphere make of this song a good starting point for the album.

"After Prayers" is a weak point in the album, sounds poppy and artificial, like trying to add Symphonic arrangements to a simple and absolutely in special ballad, the first point against Rick.

"Battle Sonata" reminds me of the sound from "White Rock", still not bad but well charged of cheesy selection of keyboards, despite this fact the performance of Rick makes me forget the flaws in this song.

"The Siege" is a nice change, the distorted guitar intro by David Paton is interesting and a change in Wakeman's music, the song turns cheesy again when Rick makes a terrible selection of keyboards and starts sounding pretty poppy, but when Rick starts with his organ and the heavy riffs by Paton follow him, everything improves a lot, another good track despite the uneven moments.

"Rochester Collage" is a nice dreamy instrumental that again reminds instantly of "Myths and Legends", to be precise to the song "Arthur", this time Wakeman's choice of keys is simply perfect, another very nice track, things are getting better.

"The Story of John (Love)" is terrible, repetitive and absolutely lack of interest, two words come to my mind when listening his track, uninspired and filler, not even the nice guitar by Paton saves the song, I always avoid it.

But again Mr. Wakeman retakes control of the album with another pompous and solid track "March of Time", somebody should have told him that he is good with the overblown music so he had avoided some boring ballads being that only progheads buy his albums and that's not what we normally expect from him. If you have a skip button in your CD player, better press it when "Don't Fly Away" is being played, completely forgettable example of the boring and cheesy ballads the Cape Crusader must avoid at any cost.

"Issabella" is a very nice instrumental, soft and slow but absolutely interesting maybe if hw had reduced it in one minute the result would had been even better, because the next instrumental "Softsword" with it's short 1:45 minutes is perfect as a reliever.

The album ends with "Hymn of Hope" which is simply excellent, Wakeman proves how versatile he is with his synth and organ while again Paton and Sawney make a good job with the guitar and percussion, a great and dramatic closer for an uneven album.

If you are expecting a masterpiece like "Six Wives of Henry the VII" don't buy it, because this is a transitional album after the weakest decade in the life of RICK WAKEMAN; but if you like his music get it because it's a breeze of fresh air after the crimes against music he committed in the 80's and gives hope to the bored fan who expected a resurrection of his idol.

Never the guidelines were so clear as in this case, "Softsword" is by in no way essential album (leave that honor to Journey, Six Wives, Myths & Legends and Criminal Record) but surely a great addition to any Prog collection, so four stars from me..

I believe you should try it.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: JeanFrame
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 10:46
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

For me personally, Wakeman for synth, Emerson for piano, Ritchie for Hammond.


I really like Wakeman much better on Piano than Emerson... as a matter of fact, even though I like many songs from ELP a lot, in general I like Wakeman's work better than Emerson's.


I don't really like to choose between those three, though there are obvious differences in styles and strengths and weaknesses. If it's a case of having to choose, I'd say Emerson for all-round ability over the other two, whose strengths were more prominent in certain areas.


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 15:16
Don't forget all his religious music, which many people like.  His
"new age" piano stuff isn't that bad as far as those things go. 

I'm glad to see him getting more respect.  Around 2006, I put
his music as an influence on my Myspace page, and I think that
really was a shocking thing to do, considering the avant garde
type people that go to my concerts, and who are my friends.
But you have to be courageous to stand up for good music.
It's never been different.



-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: dennismoore
Date Posted: March 21 2012 at 20:48
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:


But you have to be courageous to stand up for good music.
It's never been different.


Hi brainstormer, Smile

Yes one needs to be courageous to stand up for good music indeed, here is a true story, one that only Wakeman
or true prog fans can relate to:

Freshman year, High school, I was invited to a new friend's back yard party.  We spent the night outdoors in a tent
sharing a 40oz bottle of Miller Beer and listening to music. My host and much more mature "sophmore" was into regular rock but allowed me to pop a tape in the cassette player.  I proudly slammed in Journey To The Center of the Earth.  While my two cohorts were generally accepting they absolutely fell to pieces laughing when the chorale section came in(the part:  "praise God" praise God").  I was upset they were dissing Rick's great work. so I defended the music, the two of them ridiculed me all through the first two years of High School for that!  That Wakeman b*****d has no idea how much I suffered in his defense.Wink

But you know what?  I would do it all over again, cause Journey is one kiss-ass record from start to end.

True Story.


-------------
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 07:07
Thanks for sharing that, Dennis.

Wakeman has done so many albums.  He must be the most prolific prog
artist of all time.

These albums just appear in his discography and they seem as involved
as many more serious releases.  Has anyone heard this one, for example?


The Art in Music Trilogy (1999)
http://rwcc.com/title_detail.asp?int_titleID=111

Look at the track list:

1 White Castles
8' 21"
2 Glacier Valleys
11' 53"
3 The Porcelain Doll
5' 24"
4 The Snowcat
4' 7"
5 Pillars of Hope
6' 20"
6 A Fountain of Tears
5' 41"
7 The Figurine
6' 34"
8 The Dancing Pierrot
7' 3"
9 A Castle of Dreams
6' 45"
10 Seeds of Thought
6' 32"
11 Preface to a Dream
5' 45"
12 The Mottled Blackbird
6' 10"
13 The Quill
4' 58"
14 Lucky Curve
10' 35"
15 The Evening Fable
5' 16"
16 Shelly Beach
6' 44"
17 Birth of Nature
5' 8"
18 A Tale of Spring
6' 5"
19 Stories of Bygone Days
6' 12"
20 The Dancing Hedgerow
3' 2"
21 The Clock Tower
3' 4"
22 Sunbeams
2' 56"
23 The Village Green
6' 1"
24 Portrait of a Dream
3' 24"
25 Mountain Mist
3' 41"
26 Waterlillies
6' 15"
27 Tommy Big Eyes
2' 34"
28 The Lone Fisherman
3' 27"
29 Little Lady
4' 38"
30 View From A Hill
2' 35"
31 A Hint of Autumn
8' 25"
32 Boulters Lock
2' 43"
33 Orcombe Point
3' 28"
34 The Brooklet
3' 1"
35 The Fireside
2' 30"



 


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 11:09
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Played King Arthur yesterday. Great synth solos and lots of goosebump moments.Not sure about some of the drumming though.Wink
Journey is one that never could warm to for some reason but I havn't heard it for a long time.

Gary Pickford-Hopkins from the band Wild Turkey was a rather odd choice for vocalist!  He was fantastic in WT, but I thought he weakened Journey.  
 
 
WTF Chuck???
 
First, nice chatting with you again.Big smile
 
Second:  The drums on King Arthur are one of that record's strongest assets.  Tongue (IMHO)
 
Thrid: "Journey" is a true masterpiece!  What is it?  Does the female chorale put you off?
 
Fourth: Gary Pickford-Hopkins delicate voice was a perfect compliment to Ashley Holt's strong & gruffy voice.
I always thought that pair were perfect.  I thought No Earthly Connection missed that balance.
 
Boy do you and me have issues to settle!Wink

Apparently!!  

I enjoyed GPHopkins with Wild Turkey (saw them warm up the Chicago crowd for Tull's amazing TAAB show), he has a nicely-shredded rock vocal style, but his style is not one that I would associate with a grand opus of symphonic prog-rock!   A female alto might have worked better in my mind.  However, it's been many years since I've heard it.

Here, a bit of WT for your pleasure....amazing band!  




Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 12:43
http://www.amazon.com/Rick-Wakeman/e/B000APWFVW/digital/ref=ntt_mp3_rdr?_encoding=UTF8&sn=d

lists 53 Wakeman mp3 albums you can sample.


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 13:00
Interesting to compare the Wakeman output to someone like Michael Nyman, who is more
accepted in classical circles:

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1332439086/ref=sr_shvl_1-all?ie=UTF8&keywords=michael%20nyman&rh=n%3A163856011%2Ck%3Amichael%20nyman%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A625150011




-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 14:18
This has to be seen to be believed  =)
There is a lot of acting, props, set changes, later on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWiWg5hfhO4




-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: bb1319
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 14:45
Rick is definitely my favorite keyboardist, although I'm sure he's plenty of people's on here. The organ part during the second part of the "I Get Up, I Get Down" section of CTTE is probably my favorite moment with organ EVER. Period. EVER. Not the most technical work of his, but absolutely beautiful. Uplifting, really.

-------------
"I'd say that what we hear is the quality of our listening." -Robert Fripp


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 15:31
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

This has to be seen to be believed  =)
There is a lot of acting, props, set changes, later on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWiWg5hfhO4



Impressive: That's what I talked about religious music, Rick knows the difference between praising and using his music to praise the Lord without messing with anybody.

Amazing guy.

Iván




-------------
            


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 17:05
The one religious album of Rick's I have is In The Beginning.  Got to give him a Thumbs Up for donating the royalties to a charity called ASSIST.

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 22 2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:




Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Wakeman is responsible for bringing me into Prog, and I like many of his albums:
  1. Myths & Legends
  2. Six Wives
  3. Journey
  4. Criminal Record
  5. Return to the Centre of the Earth
  6. No Earthly Connection
  7. Softsword
  8. 1984
  9. Stella Bianca alla Corte de Re Ferdinando
  10. Black Knights at the Court of Ferdinand IV
Iván


From this list, the one album I don't know is "Softsword"... should I get it? I think it called for my attention some time ago, but didn't go on to buy it.

A review explains better
BTW: I originally reviewed it with 3 stars (I was more close to new sounds in 2005), I modified my review and rating for 4 stars.
Quote <span style=": rgb240, 240, 240; color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; line-height: normal; text-align: left; ">RICK WAKEMAN was the first Prog legend who came to Perú back in September 1991 so there was easy to find information about him in the newspapers and among it I read he had released recently an album called "Softsword - King John and the Magna Charter", the name instantly brought to my memory the early stages of his career after a decade full of New Age releases, so the day I went for my concert tickets also bought the album sadly my first impression was negative.</span><p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">It's true that the album had some moments but still not in the level of Rick's first albums, but slowly the album started gaining me.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">Now I believe I can judge it with a clear perspective and what I see is a musician who had lost the path of his career trying to regain the respect of his fans who had abandoned him, and honestly he did a nice job, the album is at least satisfying.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">The opener "Magna Charter is a 12:16 minutes epic that clearly reminds of "Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table", the whole bombastic sound that I loved so much when learning about Prog is back, the track is very solid despite the poor vocals by Chrissie Hammond (Well, Wakeman was never accurate when choosing vocalists) and the programmed percussion, some excellent changes and a coherent atmosphere make of this song a good starting point for the album.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"After Prayers" is a weak point in the album, sounds poppy and artificial, like trying to add Symphonic arrangements to a simple and absolutely in special ballad, the first point against Rick.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"Battle Sonata" reminds me of the sound from "White Rock", still not bad but well charged of cheesy selection of keyboards, despite this fact the performance of Rick makes me forget the flaws in this song.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"The Siege" is a nice change, the distorted guitar intro by David Paton is interesting and a change in Wakeman's music, the song turns cheesy again when Rick makes a terrible selection of keyboards and starts sounding pretty poppy, but when Rick starts with his organ and the heavy riffs by Paton follow him, everything improves a lot, another good track despite the uneven moments.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"Rochester Collage" is a nice dreamy instrumental that again reminds instantly of "Myths and Legends", to be precise to the song "Arthur", this time Wakeman's choice of keys is simply perfect, another very nice track, things are getting better.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"The Story of John (Love)" is terrible, repetitive and absolutely lack of interest, two words come to my mind when listening his track, uninspired and filler, not even the nice guitar by Paton saves the song, I always avoid it.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">But again Mr. Wakeman retakes control of the album with another pompous and solid track "March of Time", somebody should have told him that he is good with the overblown music so he had avoided some boring ballads being that only progheads buy his albums and that's not what we normally expect from him. If you have a skip button in your CD player, better press it when "Don't Fly Away" is being played, completely forgettable example of the boring and cheesy ballads the Cape Crusader must avoid at any cost.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">"Issabella" is a very nice instrumental, soft and slow but absolutely interesting maybe if hw had reduced it in one minute the result would had been even better, because the next instrumental "Softsword" with it's short 1:45 minutes is perfect as a reliever.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">The album ends with "Hymn of Hope" which is simply excellent, Wakeman proves how versatile he is with his synth and organ while again Paton and Sawney make a good job with the guitar and percussion, a great and dramatic closer for an uneven album.

<p style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb51, 51, 51; line-height: normal; text-align: left; : rgb240, 240, 240; ">If you are expecting a masterpiece like "Six Wives of Henry the VII" don't buy it, because this is a transitional album after the weakest decade in the life of RICK WAKEMAN; but if you like his music get it because it's a breeze of fresh air after the crimes against music he committed in the 80's and gives hope to the bored fan who expected a resurrection of his idol.

<div style="text-align: left;"><span style=": rgb240, 240, 240; color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; line-height: normal; ">Never the guidelines were so clear as in this case, "Softsword" is by in no way essential album (leave that honor to Journey, Six Wives, Myths & Legends and Criminal Record) but surely a great addition to any Prog collection, so four stars from me.</span><span style="line-height: normal;">.</span>
<div style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;">I believe you should try it.<div style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;">Iván



I guess I'll have to add that album to my to-get list. I think the last song you mention, "Hymn of Hope" (but as the first song) also appears on another album I have "Can you hear me?"... as a matter of fact I found that album rather nice, and that song is really great. There are a few other songs I really like a lot on that album too, and if I remember well, Chrissie Hammond also sings on it, and I actually found her singing very enjoyable.


Posted By: resurrection
Date Posted: March 26 2012 at 09:19
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Criminal Record remains to this day one of my favourite albums.

When he is good, he is excellent, although, by his own admission, some of his stuff was to pay off the bank and ex-wives and total dross.


1984? LOL

Indeed!Tongue
Criminal Record is my favourite Rick album; Im not convinced he is much of a composer, just a great musician, but I do like this album.


Posted By: sonic_assassin
Date Posted: March 29 2012 at 06:00
Just to prove that I can - occasionally - post stuff that isn't about Hawkwind....

The Gonzo record company's blog has had a couple of items that are Yes-related.  A http://gonzo-multimedia.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/rick-wakeman-entertaining-interview-in.html" rel="nofollow - newspaper interview with RW, and http://gonzo-multimedia.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/jon-anderson-talks-about-yes.html" rel="nofollow - a video of JA talking about his time (or times, even) with Yes.


Posted By: salvcar
Date Posted: April 09 2012 at 15:50
I like this guy and his music. ohh YEssss!
I'm waiting for this new collaboration with the italian singer valentina blanca, it sounds very good.


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 17:07
Certainly the most classically trained of the contemporary keyboard players, with probably the best all-round facility, but does he rock?


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 22:26
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Certainly the most classically trained of the contemporary keyboard players, with probably the best all-round facility, but does he rock?

I respectfully disagree with  both statements
  1. Patrick Moraz: At the age of three, was already studying Violin and piano, by the age of nine he was receiving classical training in six instruments, he studied in the Lausanne Conservatory and was selected by the legendary Nadia Boulanger as her student of harmony and counterpoint
  2. Vittorio Nocenzi (Banco del Mutuo Soccorso): : 
    1. Piano with the famous teacher A Monteffiori and graduated of the Santa Cecilia Conservatory in Rome
    2. Clarinet with Maestro E Ugolino
    3. Church Organ with Maestro Lino Guillon
    4. Harmony with Maestro S. Tamburini
    5. Ethnomusicology with Professor D. Capitella
    6. Art history and Philosophy in "La Sapienza university (Rome).
  3. Jurgen Fritz (Triumvirat): Graduated at the Cologne Conservatory
Now Rick Wakeman  studied the piano, clarinet, orchestration and modern music at the Royal College of Music but only for a year, after that he left to start working as a session musician.

So no, he's not remotely the most classically trained contemporary keyboardist.

Now, you ask if he can rock...Well, listen No  Earthly Connection or  Criminal Record or even Journey to the Centre of the Earth and you'll find he really can rock.

Iván

BTW: I'm a Rick Wakeman fan and like his solo material more than the one of  any other keyboardist, but there are many with impeccable classical traing.




-------------
            


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 25 2012 at 23:19
∧ 

Remarkable post, Iván!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 01:24
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Certainly the most classically trained of the contemporary keyboard players, with probably the best all-round facility, but does he rock?

I respectfully disagree with  both statements
  1. Patrick Moraz: At the age of three, was already studying Violin and piano, by the age of nine he was receiving classical training in six instruments, he studied in the Lausanne Conservatory and was selected by the legendary Nadia Boulanger as her student of harmony and counterpoint
  2. Vittorio Nocenzi (Banco del Mutuo Soccorso): : 
    1. Piano with the famous teacher A Monteffiori and graduated of the Santa Cecilia Conservatory in Rome
    2. Clarinet with Maestro E Ugolino
    3. Church Organ with Maestro Lino Guillon
    4. Harmony with Maestro S. Tamburini
    5. Ethnomusicology with Professor D. Capitella
    6. Art history and Philosophy in "La Sapienza university (Rome).
  3. Jurgen Fritz (Triumvirat): Graduated at the Cologne Conservatory
Now Rick Wakeman  studied the piano, clarinet, orchestration and modern music at the Royal College of Music but only for a year, after that he left to start working as a session musician.

So no, he's not remotely the most classically trained contemporary keyboardist.

Now, you ask if he can rock...Well, listen No  Earthly Connection or  Criminal Record or even Journey to the Centre of the Earth and you'll find he really can rock.

Iván

BTW: I'm a Rick Wakeman fan and like his solo material more than the one of  any other keyboardist, but there are many with impeccable classical traing.


Kerry Minnear?
 


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 01:33
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Kerry Minnear?
 

Of course, I only gave three examples, Jean Luc  Ponty was also trained in Piano since he was 5 (His fathe was director of the School of Music in Avranches and  in violin teacher , while his mother taught piano r at the same school) but had to choose the violin with which he graduated with the highest award,  the "Premiere Prix", at the age of 17 from  old Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique de Paris. He still write all his music with the keyboards and plays it on violin.

Iván 


-------------
            


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 02:52
It's of course correct to say that the others mentioned had more classical training, the fault is my limited statement. I should have clarified that I meant Rick was the most classically-trained of the finest of Rock's players - none of the ones you mention fall into that category for me as genuine rock musicians of the highest quality, decent jobsmen though they are. And of the highest calibre candidates I would also suggest that Rick is one of the poorest when it comes to being a genuine Rocker, certainly nowhere near Emerson or especially Ritchie in dynamics. Rick is perhaps the best of those who might be described as luxury players, decorating the existing tapestries of music rather than creating them or carrying the band as the central force. IMO, none of the 'newer' players even comes into that category. Ask Jerry Lee Lewis or Fats Domino.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

It's of course correct to say that the others mentioned had more classical training, the fault is my limited statement. I should have clarified that I meant Rick was the most classically-trained of the finest of Rock's players - none of the ones you mention fall into that category for me as genuine rock musicians of the highest quality, decent jobsmen though they are Question. And of the highest calibre candidates I would also suggest that Rick is one of the poorest when it comes to being a genuine Rocker, certainly nowhere near Emerson or especially Ritchie in dynamics. Rick is perhaps the best of those who might be described as luxury players, decorating the existing tapestries of music rather than creating them or carrying the band as the central force. IMO, none of the 'newer' players even comes into that category. Ask Jerry Lee Lewis or Fats Domino.

Please, what are you saying?

Vittorio Nocenzzi: Keyboardist and founder  of Banco del Mutuo Soccorso (with his twin brother Gianni who also has complete Classical training), the most important Italian band, active since 1969 until today, released 18 studio albums and 8 live ones, with Darwin being probably the best Italian album ever recorded (Also important "Io Sono Nato Libero" "Banco del Mutuo Soccorso" and "Banco") He was conductor of  the Orchestra dell'Unione Musiciti di Roma

Patrick Moraz: The only keyboardist who has been able to successfully replace Rick Wakeman, Kaith Emersoin and Mike Pinder, official member of Yes, Refugee (The Nice without meson) and Moody Blues, with a successful solo career.. He composed music fora  French Symphony Orchestra, recruited by them

Jurgen Fritz: Founder and composer of Triumvirat, two of their albums (Spartacus and Illusions on a Double Dimple) are legendary an extraordinary, IMO better than any ELP album except .Trilogy.

Please, I respect Wakeman a}d LOVE his works, but tall the guys I mentioned are in the same league, any peson who knows a bit of Prog prog is familiar with their work  and respects them.

Praising a musician doesn't imply disrespecting others

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 10:46
BTW: One More

Par Lindh: Started playing piano at an early age but serious lessons began at the age of nine.
Organ lessons followed the year after as well as lessons in percussion. Private lessons in Sweden on piano, organ and harpsichord followed.

In the eighties Pär was a student of the harpsichord at Schola Cantorum in Paris. During his time in Paris Pär studied with  many well known harpsichordists and organists. as Marie Claire Alain, Ton Koopman, Luciano Scrizzi, among others. Sometimes only a smaller number of lessons like with Ruggiero Gerlin & Susann Landale. But with Huguette Dreyfus   Pär studied for three years and with Kenneth Gilbert for two years. .

Pär confesses he studied organ, grand piano and harpsichord with 30 different maestros.

At the age of 19 Pär Lindh became the harpsichordist of The Royal Swedish Chamber Orchestra.

I believe this more than just a "decent jobsman".

After two failed bands (Antenna Baroque and Vincebus Ereptum due to the lack of interest for Prog at the late 70's / early 80's), Par toured as Classiical Organ and Piano player during a decade with great success, at his return, he founded the Swedish Art Rock Society (Responsible of the Symphonic re-bitrth of the 90's) with Par Lindh.

He founded Pär Lindh Project, one of the two most successful bands in Sweden, recording Gothic Impressions (With almost all Anglagard, Roine Stolt, the virtuoso guitarist Bjorn Johansson and the respected Camerata Vocalist) plus several albums (being the latest released in 2011)

This guy not only had complete and vast Clasical formation but also is one of the few that really worked as Classical musician.

Still, Journey to the Centre of the Earth, Six Wifes, Myts & Legends, Criminal Record, etc by Rick, are among my favorite albums.

Iván


-------------
            


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 15:18
^ Par Lindh Clap
 
Another great classically styled keyboard player is Ton Scherpenzeel (Kayak and Camel).
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn6SC75to4E&feature=related" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn6SC75to4E&feature=related
 
 


Posted By: DaveyByTheSea
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 15:50
A belated " Thank You very much Rick" for introducing me to prog via the albums King Arthur and No Earthly Connections...and hence Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull etc........even nearly 40 years on and i still would put these albums in my Top Ten of All Time!


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 16:33
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: One More

Par Lindh: Started playing piano at an early age but serious lessons began at the age of nine.
Organ lessons followed the year after as well as lessons in percussion. Private lessons in Sweden on piano, organ and harpsichord followed.

In the eighties Pär was a student of the harpsichord at Schola Cantorum in Paris. During his time in Paris Pär studied with  many well known harpsichordists and organists. as Marie Claire Alain, Ton Koopman, Luciano Scrizzi, among others. Sometimes only a smaller number of lessons like with Ruggiero Gerlin & Susann Landale. But with Huguette Dreyfus   Pär studied for three years and with Kenneth Gilbert for two years. .

Pär confesses he studied organ, grand piano and harpsichord with 30 different maestros.

At the age of 19 Pär Lindh became the harpsichordist of The Royal Swedish Chamber Orchestra.

I believe this more than just a "decent jobsman".

After two failed bands (Antenna Baroque and Vincebus Ereptum due to the lack of interest for Prog at the late 70's / early 80's), Par toured as Classiical Organ and Piano player during a decade with great success, at his return, he founded the Swedish Art Rock Society (Responsible of the Symphonic re-bitrth of the 90's) with Par Lindh.

He founded Pär Lindh Project, one of the two most successful bands in Sweden, recording Gothic Impressions (With almost all Anglagard, Roine Stolt, the virtuoso guitarist Bjorn Johansson and the respected Camerata Vocalist) plus several albums (being the latest released in 2011)

This guy not only had complete and vast Clasical formation but also is one of the few that really worked as Classical musician.

Still, Journey to the Centre of the Earth, Six Wifes, Myts & Legends, Criminal Record, etc by Rick, are among my favorite albums.

Iván
 
Now we're getting to the nitty-gritty. I didn't intend to disrespect any of the very fine musicians you mentioned, that's not really the point Im making. Prog did many fine and healthy things, it elevated pop/rock music and introduced true musicianship into the general genre, but it also had unhealthy sides to it. Musicians began to forget the roots of what pop music is, and in some ways you are displaying some of those attitudes in your posts. Rock music is not classical, or at least should only contains elements of classicism if it is to retain its roots and dynamic qualities. How would Rubenstein have fared as a rock musician? Very poorly I would suggest, or at least he would have been only of use in those moments where rock was mimicing classics. Wakeman is perhaps the most famous example of that ilk, and almost all the examples you are given fall into the same category. No-one can doubt their technique or talent, but it is more in the realms of a concert pianist that a rock keyboard player. I would suggest that most of these players are actually rather poor at the job, needing the full support of guitars and the texture of a full band to be of use at all. This simply isn't true of Emerson, Ritchie, and a few others, they have a whole rock dynamic that Wakeman and the others you mentioned do not even approach, being based purely on piano technique with no thought or awareness (or ability) to play not just the piece but the forces surrounding them. They could be playing in a living room or in a large hall and they would play exactly the same in both cases.
 
If music was simpley about who had the most proficient technique, then there would be no such thing as aesthetics, emotional content, and sheer power. That's how the implosion of Prog happened, it drifted too far from the place of its birth. 


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 26 2012 at 21:39
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

 I would suggest that most of these players are actually rather poor at the job, needing the full support of guitars and the texture of a full band to be of use at all.  This simply isn't true of Emerson, Ritchie, and a few others, they have a whole rock dynamic that Wakeman and the others you mentioned do not even approach, being based purely on piano technique with no thought or awareness (or ability) to play not just the piece but the forces surrounding them. They could be playing in a living room or in a large hall and they would play exactly the same in both cases. 

Sorry, but it's the contrary, most of them played without a full band and two of them (Fritz and Lindh) are compared with Emerson rather than with Wakeman, and the other one (Moraz) replaced Emerson in the Nice forming Refugee..

  1. Jurgen Fritz released the best Triumvirat albums with Helmut Köllen (bass) and Hans Bathelt (Drums) and they really rock
  2. The latest Pär Lindh Project as rocking as any ELP album was recorded with William Kopecy (Bass) and Al Lewis (Drums), also a power trio
  3. Patrick Moraz released the two Refugee albums with Lee Jackson (Bass) and Brian Davidson (Drums), another Power Trio
No guitar in any case and the three really know how to rock

Now, Vittorio Nocenzi plays with a full band, but......



It's obvious he is as good with Rock as with Classical..

And still I believe Rick knows how to Rock when he wants.

.

Like here with Jon Lord...Probably he's more comfortable with Classic oriented ROCK, but he knows he's a Rock artist, not a classical one like Rubinstein.

Iván





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Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: April 27 2012 at 00:43
Sorry, I know you mean well, but I dont agree with your point of view. For instance, In the example of Moraz, only Davison holds it together in terms acceptable to me. I think you're listening purely to the notes and techniques without an understanding of what rock really is. Then again, we all have your own opinions to which we are indeed entitled.


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 27 2012 at 01:19
Interesting stuff.
 
My own feeling is that Wakeman was happiest as a solo musician while Emerson was happiest playing in a band. That is as much to do with personality as it is about technique. Wakeman was much more flamboyant than Emerson (yes really!). I think he got bored being just in a band. Emerson on the other hand liked the organic approach and having other musicians to spark off. Emerson was 'rock n roll ' so I understand that point of view although he could obviously play a bit as well (Three Fates).
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 27 2012 at 01:42
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Sorry, I know you mean well, but I dont agree with your point of view. For instance, In the example of Moraz, only Davison holds it together in terms acceptable to me. I think you're listening purely to the notes and techniques without an understanding of what rock really is. Then again, we all have your own opinions to which we are indeed entitled.

Of course we can disagree, it's healthy for a forum (And fun for those of us who like a good debate)..

But your comment of Refugee left me cold

According to every piece of literature and almost every review of the album, describes the band as keyboard oriented and praises the work of Patrick Moraz, combining Rock, Classical and Jazz (Remember that Moraz made his early career as Jazz player rather than as Classical musician) with brilliance, the only weak point of Refugee were the terrible vocals

Now, if you have to choose one early Yes album with lesser classical influence, you have to go with Relayer, Moraz is absolutely different to Wakeman in every sense, both are great, buit Moraz is much more aggressive and of course Jazz Rock oriented.

I never cared for the Moody Blues, because of the poppy sound, but things changed in the fantastic "Long Distance Voyager", all the themes (except "Taking Out of the Turn") are much more rewarding and Rock oriented than anything done with Pinder.

Patrick Moraz gave freshness to every band he joined, as a fact he changed the sound and style, listen him in Mainhorse (described as a combination between Deep Purple and Atomic Rooster), and tell me if the guy can't rock. 

BTW: Haven't heard your opinion about Par Lindh or Jurgen Fritz, normally described as members of the school of Emerson and as clones by the mot radical ELP fans.

Just in case you never heard him, this is the guy who studied Classical Music in a Conservatory, went for perfection  with almost 30 teachers and toured as a Classical pianist and organist:



Now tell me that he can't Rock.

Iván



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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 27 2012 at 02:08
to say a guy who have sessioned with Black Sabbath, and David Bowie can't rock is just silly talk Tongue

he was a hairlength of playing on Ziggy Stardust, which is one of the top rock concept albums and glam rock, and nothing rocks more socks then classic glam rock

rock hoky tonk piano - Rich Wakeman





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Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: April 27 2012 at 03:03
You should be careful with words like 'silly', everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether you like it or not. In the examples you give, the bands rock, the keyboards dont (IMO!). Association does not necessarily imply likeness. Let me say clearly that I appreciate all the keyboard players named IN THEIR OWN WAY. I was merely making the point that there are different aesthetics to consider.



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