The Fascinating Contradictions Of The Beastie Boys
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Forum Name: General Music Discussions
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86207
Printed Date: April 26 2024 at 03:35
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Topic: The Fascinating Contradictions Of The Beastie Boys
Posted By: Textbook
Subject: The Fascinating Contradictions Of The Beastie Boys
Date Posted: April 12 2012 at 19:48
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Bear with me a second. I was considering doing a full-on blogumentary of The Beastie Boys (don't know if I actually will) because while they are popular and people know who they are, I don't think people fully appreciate their significance or how bizarre and interesting their story is. They were a hardcore punk band who became the biggest hip-hop act in America and subsequently a legitimately important force in funk and fusion. Everyone agrees they're bad lyricists yet they're one of the most critically acclaimed rap acts there is. They're three white Jewish guys who became an important force for Buddhism and arguably got the ball rolling on the whole Tibet issue. They went from the political insensitivity of wanting to call their debut album Don't Be A F a g g o t to becoming big time activists, donating to women's causes and protesting wars. They're still the only group I've ever heard attempt funk klezmer. They've worked with everyone from Lee Scratch Perry to Orlando f**king Bloom. They're in a genre where a lot of people don't play instruments but not only do they play, Adam "MCA" Yauch is one of the most overlooked bassists of all time. (Mike D hardly sucks on the drums either.) They're simultaneously a million selling pop act and a beard stroking muso's choice. They began as fakes and pretenders but have since gone on to represent hip-hop more authentically than a lot of African-American artists. And they're about the only act in hip-hop history that gets away with looking like this:  I could go on but I think the point is made. The plethora of contradictions makes them a fascinating act and if there isn't a good book on them, there should be soon.
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Replies:
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 03:11
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Surely there must be a site somewhere that appreciates this kind of **** *** ***** ***** more than a prog site like this? It's like going to a classical music appreciation site and recommending Brittney and Kate Perry, or recommending the historic value of The Wombles to the world of thrash metal. Although I generally appreciate your contributions on this site, when it comes to hip-hop the second word is 'off''. No offence. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 05:16
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npjnpj: I don't think anybody here takes someone who judges music they haven't heard particularly seriously. Also, your complete failure to address anything I said (to make your point valid, you would have to argue that the juxtapositions I attributed to the Beastie Boys are mundane or worthless, which you didn't do and almost certainly aren't going to) shows your post is just a mindless, knee-jerk reaction to the term hip-hop, as it's a core part of your self worth that you proclaim every music form you don't understand or appreciate as trash in order to convince yourself that your ignorance and inability to address this ignorance is a strength. Additionally, genre-rejection is the absolute antithesis of the prog mindset so why on earth are you on this forum? I'm a white middle class guy who finds that one of the best ways to expand my mind is to study art forms alien to my surroundings. This is how I got so seriously into hip-hop and it has opened my head to all kinds of things. You want to sit in your little vacumn sealed world knowing what you like and liking what you know, go ahead, but please please please don't affect superiority because I'll tell you now, your attitude is inferior and that is a fact. Closing your mind off does not lead to richer understanding and more valid opinions. I believe a rare but well deserved "f**k you" has been earned and I declare you officially owned, how you like me now. The moral of this story is not to mess with a thread started by a former battle rapper. Anyway, for people who read without making snap judgements and who might be interested in exploring unfamiliar music, beginning across Check Your Head, Ill Communication and Hello Nasty, the B-Boys did actually start to become progressive, at least by hip-hop standards with the introduction of dub, funk, klezmer, Miles Davis references, traditional Buddhist music, psychedelica, electronica, singer-songwriter, chill-out, jazz etc. Songs like Shambala, Something's Gotta Give, I Don't Know and Song For The Man were hugely shocking coming from a band that made its name with Fight For Your Right. And Futterman's Rule is still one of my favourite funk instrumentals. Gotta check Yauch's bass on that track, pity I can't find it on Youtube. Futterman's Rule, look for that. Their second album Paul's Boutique is also generally agreed to have seriously advanced the art of sampling and is still regarded by some as the manual on how to sample.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 05:32
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 05:44
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Even if you were trolling me, I enjoyed unloading my clip there so I've had fun either way ;) |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 05:59
You can't say this about The Beastie Boys. They are f**king legendary. Mind you...I don't knbow what you ***** ***** *** said!  I've seen some dross discussed in these general discussions so I have no problem with a Beastie Boys thread. Why exclude them above say.......Ah - Ha?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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npjnpj wrote:Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:25
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I don't
think anybody here takes someone who judges music they haven't heard
particularly seriously. -> true, but nowadays how can anyone
avoid hearing it? Just having a bit of fun 'cause I'm bored. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:29
| I mean the other day someone started a Coldplay thread and I piled into them because I think Coldplay are horrendous. But I never said "You are not allowed to talk about Coldplay on this forum." The guy wanted to know how people felt about Coldplay, I feel negatively about them, I expressed that and more importantly, explained why and offered alternative music I felt was similar but superior, in that case Elbow. The problem isn't you disagreeing with me npjnpj, it's you doing it like a clown. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:33
Oh my god. I use a word you don't know, your reaction is to not look it up, but just march over it in arrogance and complacency. I talk about music you don't know, you write it off because to acknowledge that it might have value you don't appreciate is too much for your fragile ego. If I use a word you don't know, same deal because if you don't know it, it's not worth knowing, right? What a sad, backwards little mind you must have. If you're not playing a character to incite me, and I don't think you are, then you're not very bright. I suggest you not engage me further as we're not in the same weight class. Just being honest.
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:46
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And ANOTHER THING, NO, prog does not necessitate the rejection of any genre. Ooh but prog musicians reject pop elements right? Um, no, meet crossover prog. YOU necessitate the rejection of genres because you need to exclude to feel good probably because you yourself get excluded for acting like a dick a la this thread and f**k it, I'm going to battle you, this is straight off the top of my head: I understand rap, I heard it, I know it It's the words of poets, you're absurd you show it You jump to conclusions, you chump, you're confusin' Your snobbish delusions with the music I'm usin' To give my life fusion To keep my mind movin' to new places, new faces Mixing the races, in rap I find traces Of shared mental spaces, of hope and despair Desire and fear On the radio you hear Rap that's shallow and boring But Nickleback has 'em snoring It's all commercial, rap's not the exception This a self deception to give you a perception that your taste is perfection Rap helps me to manage my mind and my language It's speed and it's skill It's dope and it's ill New idioms fill, my thoughts and my mind I feel like I was blind, all the new ways I find To write and to rhyme, to string words together In ways witty and clever, prosaic? Never So go to a cypher, see if you survive for Five seconds I reckon that's all you can strive for Words you must study or you'll end up bloody Battered and bruised as my bars beat your body I know my nouns and my adjectives, this you can quote I may be dope but you are a dope Come at me anytime npjnpj.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:58
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There was a young teacher from Aus Who argued and argued because His message of rap, of hip hop n' all that Made us run back to our Prog. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 06:59
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The problem here is the inital premis is only of significance to you. Whether what you say is true or a crock is of little importance to the vast majority here (I was going to say "anyone" but I think there are perhaps one or two who may agree with you up to a point), so being agressive about it isn't going to enlighten anyone anytime soon. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:05
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It's so interesting that you suggest I should keep my musical opinions to myself because they're not the accepted norm on the forum. Progressive this is Dean, Dean this is progressive. Now is this a progressive forum or a let's-all-pretend-to-be-openminded-while-actually-being-totally-straitjacketed-in-our-tastes forum? You don't have to like the Beastie Boys. But you do have to read my initial post here and respond to the content of it, rather than tell me it's inadvisable to voice opinions others might not share, at least if you want to have a conversation in this thread rather than just make yourself feel clever.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:08
What can I say? I'm a tool 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:12
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A member from Germany was cool He trolled a thread like a fool After being beat down, He said like a clown "What can I say, I'm a tool" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:16
| I quite like that! |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:22
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This IS the "General Music Discussions" forum, is it not? A Beastie Boy discussion is quite welcome here. Nobody blasted me for a Prince thread I started here a few weeks ago... no one replied either. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:22
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There was a poster named Snow Dog Who not only dabbled in prog But limerick rap Which was lyrical crap Which stank worse than a Scottish pub's bog I knew I'd get it. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:23
| Pure class. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:24
| Catfood: Yeah I think it's actually quite depressing that on a "progressive" forum, people here not only don't go outside their music comfort zones but PROUDLY ADVERTISE IT. What is up with that? I've said before that I think quite a few people here are posers and actually very, very, conservative about music. |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:29
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Honestly, Beastie Boys aren't exactly my cup of tea, but I like to read posts from people who are excited and detailed about bands they love. It sometimes gives me pause for reconsideration. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:32
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Textbook, a poster you see, Made threads that shouted out "ME" The attention he got Whether due him or not, Resulted in banning for he. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:33
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Exactly. I mean that's mostly how I find out about new bands. I don't get people who read a post like mine and go "THIS POOR MAN IS OBVIOUSLY QUITE INSANE. HONESTLY, THE VERY IDEA THAT AN ART FORM SUCH AS HIP-HOP WHICH IS LOVED BY MILLIONS AND BEEN CONSISTENTLY POPULAR FOR THREE DECADES MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER ANYBODY. WHAT NONSENSE." I don't get why they're even reading a forum like this because they've already decided not to even try to learn anything.
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:34
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Snow Dog: TECHNICAL FOUL You had to use the object pronoun "him" in that final line. Grammatical cheat, you are disqualified. I WIN. I AM THE BEST BATTLE RAPPER LOGGED IN TO PROGARCHIVES AT MIDNIGHT ON FRIDAY.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:36
Artistic license!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:42
| And on a serious note, this thread really really wasn't started in an attempt to be controversial or get attention. They're a multi-million selling act, have made several records regarded as classics and are sometimes included on "best acts of all time" lists. I didn't anticipate people would have a stick up their ass about a member of the board finding them noteworthy. But when some people did choose to go "I DO! I HAVE A STICK UP MY ASS! WITH TWIGS AND LEAVES ON IT!" well I have to sort them out son, thas how I do, get they heads right, nahmsayin? Cats be messin up the game with these poisonous thoughts, I ain't havin' it son, homie don't play dat, heads gonna get checked. You come rockin up this hood with that close-minded sh*t, I'm knock your baseball cap off son. I'm put my foot on it when you try to pick it up. Then I'm drool on the back of your head while you bent over. Then I'm hold out my elbow over your head for you to smack it on when you stand up, then I'm push you over backwards where you'll trip over your girlfriend who I got down on all fours behind you cos I was just giving it to her doggystyle. Then I'm pick up your baseball cap and pull it down over your grandmother's head so she can't see and her curlers is all messed up. Thas how it is g. Thas how I roll. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 07:45
| Is it really already midnight in Harlem, Brisbane? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:01
| And then I pull that stick out ya ass and beat ya grandma with it while she's all like ""Help, help, I can't see, he pulled the hat down too tight, oh my god I'm blinded and being beaten with a poopy stick and I like it" cos your family gets down like that. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:14
| Yeah.... As I said, rap doesn't really impress me all that much, as you might have gathered. Nice effort though. Keep working on it. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:17
| Have you listened to alternative/underground/conscious/critically acclaimed rap or just stuff on radio/TV? Because if you haven't tried the real stuff (I totally, totally agree that most mainstream rap is garbage) then you don't know what you're talking about. And if you think about it, that's not a put-down, it's the literal truth. |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:17
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Beastie boys are some of the only 90's rappers that I don't hate. Not a fan personally but if someone puts their music on I will not complain about it.
I prefer more of the whole avant/prog hip-hop like Busdriver, RA the Rugged Man, El-Producto, etc.
Also no offense to anyone's rhyming skills but we are on a prog website. Even if you're not white, you're still whiter than most people. :-P
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:20
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I prefer the avant/prog hip-hop too. Note I never said the Beastie Boys are my favourite act or the best act ever or anything similar to those claims. I said they embody some fascinating contradictions. The Beastie Boys are all about fusion. All along the way from the very concept of the band to the Fight For Your Right II video, they take disparate, alien elements that shouldn't work together and join them so seamlessly that people don't even notice that two things that don't belong together are in fact now belonging together. It's an amazing ability.
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:25
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I hardly see "contradictions" in the career of the Beastie Boys, but rather an evolution. What would be contradictory would be seeing them, let's say, singing for Tibet while accepting to play in front of Chinese officials - and "forgetting" to talk about Tibet. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:32
| They're juxtapositions rather than contradictions. But npjnpj doesn't know that word (read the thread) so I didn't want to confuse him. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:45
Secondly the word progressive is not a tyre lever that can be used to coerce every form of music into an ideal of progressiveness - just as "experimental" is not really a literal description for the majority of music that claims to be experimental. Accusations of not being open-minded are not addressing taste, predilections and preference when directed at people who don't share your opinion - people are allowed not to like what you find good just as you are allowed to like what I don't - that has nothing to do with being progressive or openminded. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:51
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But npjnpj isn't "those that would converse with me". He said YOUR THREAD SUCKS I'M HUNGRY GOT ANY CHIPS and then threw up on my floor. So he got slapped upside the head. It happens. And I literally said you're allowed to dislike the Beastie Boys. What I asked is that you *respond to my initial post*. If you don't like the Beastie Boys or think I'm lionising them, fine, tell me that, but explain why. Otherwise, don't join the conversation. npjnpj's post was egregiously stupid in that the topic could have been about Outkast or Vanilla Ice and his post wouldn't have changed. He wasn't responding to me, he was being inane and offensive to the spirit of the thread. That's why I stomped on it and he seems to have taken the point so we're all good. In the hood.
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Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 08:59
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Naaa.... not really. I just felt like winding you up a bit ( in addition to not really appreciating hip hop all that much, I'm afraid). Clearly didn't work though. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 09:00
I think it did. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: dreadpirateroberts
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 09:13
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I like the Beastie Boys, got some great stuff across their discog, when sampler is closer to sound-collage than simply lifting someone's chorus, then I can enjoy it. Australian band Avalanches, before they stopped rapping ------------- We are men of action. Lies do not become us. http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/" rel="nofollow - JazzMusicArchives. |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 09:57
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I think the Beastie Boys are quite cool The kind of rap act that makes you drool, True, they started out like one big party And the pants of their lyrics were not too smarty but they grew over all that matter and their music has become better. Their image is not best on PA not being taken too serious-lee but PA can be like a snobbish clique who doesn't what to be seen in Paul's boutique lest in camouflage suits, y'all the Beastie Boys are like a big ball Hey, how about my spontaneous improvising rap?  |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 11:27
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I read the whole thread just now and frankly I can't believe it got to where it did. Textbook I'm with you on the whole beastie boys coolness appreciation thread, I wanted to open a thread like this my self because I feel the beastie boys are not your ordinary rap group. If there was a progressive rap site, they would be 'genesis'. Not being a hip hop fan at all I always loved their 'Check your head' album and since then I got some more albums and found they are true musicians, with a real passion for music. Just to show you my point, not a lot of people know they have released an all instrumental album, no vocals at all, just bass, drums, guitar and keys. The beastie boys does not release an album every year, far from it. They certainly take the time to consentrate on their next album, and deliever us with a totally different thing every time. I like their jazziness their funk, their rock and now I adore their rapping, they are the real deal, and definitely deserves a place in here!! I would like to hear some thoughts about their music, hope everyone can allow it. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 12:04
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*** ***** *** *******?
------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 13:25
| kjhfifpjuhouyryrtdljhfgkytf?????? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 13:46
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^That can't be it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:02
^
Is this it? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:03
That's the question. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:06
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^I think it's: Our Swede has rotated. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:16
I think I need to step away from the computer a while. All I see are stars. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:18
That's how I like my Swedes. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:21
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Nobody wants a semi done Scandinavian - we need constant care and vigilance. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:27
This thread is about everything but the beastie boys. 
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:29
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***! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:30
| Beastie boys.... those are younger boys that have grown body hair like beasts right? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:31
Gazuntie! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: iamathousandapples
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:34
Np's just jealous it's the Bea-stie boys! Anywhy, I love the Beastie Boys. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/thamazingbender" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:44
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I like the Beastie Boys too, particularly Paul's Boutique, Check Your Head, Ill Communication, and The In Sound From Way Out. It was just hard to get a word in this sh*tstorm without seeming anticlimactic.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:52
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Yeah, sorry for the derailment earlier (I still believe Swedes need to be rotated though...) I really love The Beastie Boys as well. Especially Paul's Boutique and all of those old school releases. Intergalactic I rather like too, and I caught them at the Roskilde Festival that year. Absolutely insane concert! And yep - they look completely bizarre considering they're among the biggest selling hip hop artists. Kind of like the reverse of André 2000 off Outkast but without the stylo methinks ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 13 2012 at 14:56
| It's funny that not long ago I played Paul's boutique for the first time and was hooked for months, and then suddenly heard a cover by Anthrax to 'Looking at the barrell of a gun' which is heavy rocking in it's original form too. Great track indeed! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 09:12
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hip-hoppers who CAN play instruments. Their late eighties/early nineties records show a high level of open-mindedness (on 'ill communication', you can hear rap, hardcore, funk, jazz), something I wouldn't say of other hip-hop acts. They should be signed on Mike Patton's label, Ipecac. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 09:34
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^Would they really fit into the Ipecap catalogue? I have the feeling that the bands on this label are more experimental than the Beastie Boys. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 10:55
| Maybe they would get even more experimental if they would be on that label. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 16:50
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well, Rob Swift (hip-hop DJ) is on Ipecac, so... ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 14 2012 at 22:03
Rap.... and prog..... oh my! |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 01:12
Being a prog fan you should be more open minded to new fusions of styles. You just might discover something you like. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 04:38
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Some people here are snobs.What's the polar opposite of prog? Pop. And how many times have they been mixed together? A million. And no one here finds that shocking at all. But hip-hop is somehow impossible to blend into prog. Nonsense. Anyway, thanks for the on-topic replies. I mentioned this in the OP but I'd like to ask again, what do people think of Adam Yauch as a bassist? I think he lays down some pretty tasty grooves on Check Your Head and Ill Communication. He even plays the upright bass sometimes. He's certainly above average imo but because he's also a rapper, people never even think of him as a bassist at all.
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:20
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He is ok, the best place to really hear what he's like is on their instrumental album 'The Mix Up'. But on a good/great bassist discussion he will never be mentioned. But he is good on creating that groove, but not as an improvisational player. But let's clear some of the negative opinions about how groovy, rocky, and jazzy they are, and show you their other side, that you won't get from MTV. For all those interested of course. Is this a hammond organ over there? Oh yes it is! Don't pay attention to the first 13 seconds it's a promo. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:26
Yes you are one of them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:39
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Oh, and pop and prog are not polar opposites by any stretch of the imagination. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:45
| ^ So what are they? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:48
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^Cousins ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:52
| ^ Are cousins alike? |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:55
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^ Incestuous cousins ! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:58
| What are we talking about? |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 05:59
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Prop and Pog ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:01
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Pop is Prog's father. That's why he's called pop. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:03
| And mop is the mother. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:05
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^No that's mummy. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:15
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I do believe prog and pop are opposites. Pop: Appealing to an already extant idea of coolness/happiness in order to create something which will be immediately attractive to a consumer. It needs to be realtively simple in order to be successfully consumed through casual methods such as car radios and TV clips. Does not have to be totally iterative, but if it becomes too different from what is currently the norm, it is unlikely to be considered pop and be played in pop venues. Prog: Creating something with no regard whatsoever for what the marketplace is interested in. Typically either aims for complexity and grandeur or alienation through the deliberate avoidance of norms. Both of these disqualify it from casual venues. There you go, philosophical opposites. Snow Dog: I'm not a snob, I'm right. You guys who judge the entirety of hip-hop based on 8 seconds of a Fifty Cent song you hear from a passing humvee don't have a leg to stand on. You're like young kids who say they hate classical music when they've never heard any ;)
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:19
You Guys? Who are they? Did you not read my post defending the Beastie Boys here? Did I not say that I liked De la Soul? I have mentioned also that I like Eminem! Don't tar as all with your generilisations. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:22
Couldn't have put it better.  ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:32
This band is in PA : ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:36
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^and what about some krautrap : ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:41
It is impossible to draw a line that says on one side Prog on the other Pop. Where exactly do Yes, Genesis, Floyd etc become Pop? A band like Crass is therefore a Prog band in your book?
All pop music like Hiphop can be incorporated in Prog . If you did how much Hiphop would make it a pop record. How long would the record have to be before it was officially Prog?
Prog came from Pop. They are not mutually exclusive. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 06:44
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^the only fact that the Beatles are in PA shows that prog is derivative of pop. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 10:55
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I believe the blending of rap and prog had been pioneered by this obscure band from the early-90's... (forward to 3:12 minute mark) |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:11
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^at that time Rush were not playing prog anymore...so no, they didn't pioneer this. Maybe Mr Bungle did this before they released their first official album. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:24
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^ okay, I was joking around anyway. It is a blending of ProgPopRap then. 
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:30
| That's not rap even by white people standards! |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:32
What are you talking about? That Rush rap is every bit as good as Vanilla Ice! |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 11:42
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Which is the best hardcore rapper ever
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 13:09
| So, we're not discussing about the Beastie Boys anymore, that's it? |
Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 14:53
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hunh? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 16:45
Wrong. Or bullsnot. (either works for me). That view is snobbery of the worse kind - attributing lofty ideas and ideals to Prog that it isn't entitled to wear. You cannot actually determine the philosophy behind the creation of a piece of music just by listening to it, and even the words that come out of the artists mouth aren't entirely trustworthy in this respect either (that's were " http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pretentious" rel="nofollow - pretentious " comes into play).
Whatever dark hole of introspective pretentiousness prog has painted itself, this is not where it began and, in spite of everything, it hasn't actually managed to climb atop the pedestal that has been created for it. Musically Prog is Pop regardless of the embelishments added to it.
Prog was created to make money (via fame if necessary, or vice versa) - no prog musician ever wanted to be a starving artist. Prog music (and musicians) just happened to arrive at a time when the music business was receptive to it and allowed it free reign - in the 70s Prog was the cash-cow, selling large numbers of albums instead of large numbers of singles was an unexpected windfall for the record industry and they were more than happy to indulge the golden goose (...don't worry, I've plenty of metaphors where they came from). The marketting and promotion of Prog was no different to the glitter-ball marketting of three minute pop, the stage spectacle and year-long world tour was to draw the crowds and sell the album, selling coolness/happiness to those who would buy it, even demin-clad lank-haired students living in bedsits pouring over the lyric sheet of Close To The Edge while rolling spliff on the album cover wanted to be cool and happy. And this still happens today, Roger Waters grossed $227,365,144 from the recent Wall Live tour.. Two hundred and twenty seven million three hundred and sixty five thousand one hundred and forty four dollars. Lady Gagag fell short of that total by more than $102million...
Prog is Pop.
I'll let Ian fight his own battles on whether you or he are a snob or not.
However liking a "minority" genre and implying that anyone who doesn't like it is closed-minded is the definition of musical snobery around here. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 15 2012 at 23:35
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I think Dean and I have got into a if I say it's night he'll say it's day thing so we may as well call it a day. I stand by my definition of prog/pop and find your "prog is pop" stance to be utter nonsense, but explaining why will take time and us nowhere and I hardly think you'll be bitterly disappointed at my decision to let it drop ;) Anyway, my problem is not that people don't like rap. My problem is people judging it from a surface impression and that is what I have always said. For example, I don't like country music much. I don't consider myself close-minded though because I really did go back and listen seriously to a whole lot of classic/acclaimed country albums. Few of the people on PA who trash hip-hop seem to have done that with the hip-hop genre. If you have, fine, say so and I'll have no option but to shut up, but if you haven't it goes back to not taking people who judge music they haven't heard seriously.
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 01:13
| This thread is becoming very exhausting. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 02:25
What!
I say, WHAT?!?!
One post, one response and we have got into a "a if I say it's night he'll say it's day thing"? Bullsnot. Then you reply to my repsonse with a " I stand by my definition of prog/pop and find your "prog is pop" stance to be utter nonsense" but fail to give an explanation so as to cut me off...
 you and the ground you walk on. Bet your arse I'm disappointed.... in you. I don't want to discuss this because you are wrong! ... ???? How ing rude is that?! off.
What!
I say... WHAT?!?!?!
That's one of the most supercilious comments I've ever seen on this forum, I'm speechless.
.! that's rude.Man, what do you want? - a list of
ing albums and a detailed assessment of each one? A thirty thousand word dissertation on each hip-hop artist we've ever listened too? How
ing dare you accuse us of something you have no proof of while claiming never doing it yourself. For 's sake credit us with the same level of intelligence you assume for yourself or off./discussion.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:12
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Yes, well, quite. Anyhoo... How about that "It's the joint" sample on Shake Your Rump? Rather well placed isnt it? And then there's that really cool squelchy bass sound that sort of makes up the chorus of the song, I could listen to that all day. I've never been able to quite figure out what exactly it is though. *crickets* I'll get me coat.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:46
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I'll say something Texty.....it's not often a member gets Dean so bloody annoyed. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 04:49
| I feel strangely proud. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 16 2012 at 08:56
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don't be. ------------- What? |