2112 vs. A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86546
Printed Date: May 12 2024 at 21:57
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 2112 vs. A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Subject: 2112 vs. A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 20:59
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These two 20+ minute epics are similar mainly in that they follow first-person stories which end with the suicide of the protagonist. They also both contain some great, heart-wrenching vocals. Have at it. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Replies:
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 21:01
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While not even close to my favorite Rush songs, I'll take almost anything over Pawn Hearts.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 21:02
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2112 ------------- 
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Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 22:05
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A Plague Of Lighthouse Keepers for it's atmosphere and introspect.
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Posted By: gerdtheater
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 23:26
| it must be 2112 <3 love RUSH!!! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 28 2012 at 23:49
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Vdgg easy. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 01:30
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Vdgg ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 01:33
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Rush will still be playing 2112 when 2112 arrives..... -------------   
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Posted By: snowsnow
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 01:56
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Love them both. Voted VDGG.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 02:33
When I saw the poll, I thought that this was a strange match-up, and hadn't really considered the lyrics of both, but all things are a part and apart. The are considerable structural similarities between the two (suites), so an interesting match-up.
Same. Both are great tracks. Really love the VdGG one, though. I used to be obsessed with "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers", and Pawn Hearts generally, despite being really into Rush many years ago, I had not listened to "2112" in many, many years until now since I don't like to vote unless both songs are fresh in my mind, unless like with "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" it's been absorbed to the point that I don't need to listen again. I'm still voting for the VdGG, which is from my preferred band, but I got to say, listening to 2112 just really got me back into Rush. I didn't think so much of Rush's 2112 when I was a teenager and was really into Rush, but I have to say that my opinion has changed. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
snowsnow wrote:Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 05:53
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2112. Van der Graaf Generator has one weak side: 20+ minute epics. ------------- 
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Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 07:02
-------------  
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Posted By: PabstRibbon
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:02
| Since 2112 is losing I'll vote for it. I love both pieces |
Posted By: King Manuel
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:39
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A plague of lighthouse keepers is next to Supper´s Ready my favourite epic ... ------------- Don't Bore Us, Get To The Chorus |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:50
I agree completely.
But as everyone in my local prog group says, this site is full of VDGG fanboys, so they'll win. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:58
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Though 2112 is one of my favorite Rush tracks, i've been a VdGG fan much less so Lighthouse is more fresh and overall has more depth with it's composition. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:02
| 2112 for sure. My introduction to Rush. Have never been a VdGG fan. |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:33
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"A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" sounds like it was composed with more skill, IMO, so it gets my vote. As a band, however, I enjoy Rush way more than VdGG. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 15:12
this place is at least equally full of Rush fanboys -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: akaBona
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:53
jep!
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 16:59
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MMCXII ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 19:54
Imagine them in 2112. They will be in heaven playing this album. Or... THEY WILL BE THE OLDEST MEN EVER. But anyway, my vote goes to VDGG. ------------- Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb - Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 29 2012 at 20:02
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VDGG have the best song on offer here though I adore 2112 esp the first 10 minutes then it delves into exploratory soft rock and loses my interest. Plague is a killer track that captures me from beginning to end on every listen. ------------- 
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Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 08:41
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2112 easily! ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: Riuku
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 09:06
Rush, VDGG and Genesis are my favorite bands, but Rush is only my favorite because they got me into music. I still enjoy their music a lot, but not as much as the prog they got me into.
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 30 2012 at 10:06
2112 (as long as I can have the Different Stages version )
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 03:39
Well I would argue that Rush have a vastly bigger fanbase than VDGG (who were an extremely minor prog band in the 70s), so that's not a surprise.
I am (I think) the last survivor on progarchives from my local group (100++ members) and several have commented that they got sick of the fanboys of certain bands - mainly VDGG, King Crimson amd Dream Theater. Certainly, when we meet, none of those bands feature anything like as hugely as they do on here and they rarely if ever ever win polls for best anything.
And it's not an age thing - as well as those like me (60+ proggers from the late 60s/70s), there are plenty of university students as well. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 04:17
| Not even a contest. Plague easily for me. Not that there's anything wrong with 2112. It's just that Rush were not in their mature phase when they recorded 2112. Their best came later with albums starting with Hemispheres and continuing through Moving Pictures and Signals. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 12:08
| 2112 is a snoozefest. A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers is one of the best songs ever. |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 12:11
 A song wins because more people like it than the other song. If you want to just blame it on fanboys, that makes no sense because they're like that because they like the band. Complaining about people liking a band is pretty silly.
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 12:56
Its music, can never ever find the "true" masters, its all a matter of taste.
Rush make music, much more easy to understand for most people, got a bigger fanbase, Yes.
But do they make better music, not in my ears.
In general, a huge fanbase, lean towards: simple mainstream music.
Not allways bad, mainstream can be great, but not pressing the borders either. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 13:00
Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with being passionate about one's favourites. What one finds good is a matter of taste, and as long as people aren't disrespectful of others tastes or excessively negative, and don't try to claim that they know better what is good and bad, nor try to dominate every topic by talking about their favourite bands, and what they dislike, then I see no problem. How were these so-called fanboys ruining these acquaintances of yours PA experience when it came to discussion about music? I've always found that there was space here for a wide-range of discussion about different groups. What rather taints my experience is that a lot of the non-Prog music I love doesn't seem to be appreciated by many here, but I don't blame the Proggers for it. Nor does it bother me that the prog-umbrella music I like best is hardly the most popular here. If someone, or worse, a group of people, seems to go out of his way to express his distaste for, for example, King Crimson and VdGGin various topics, and makes various disparaging comments towards music that he doesn't appreciate, calls it bad etc, (and sometimesthe people are really not familiar enough with the the band or musical idiom to constructively comment on it), well that's the kind of attitude that can drive people away. There's nothing wrong with one person preferring Camel to King Crimson or vice versa, as long as people don't act like what they like is better. Of course some do and many of us do sometimes, but I think the majority of PAers are more mature than that most of the time. Maybe thing were different before? I have heard that there was a time when this site was swamped with DT fans, which can be a pain for having discussion about other music since other topics drop off the page quickly, and they might might be talking DT in topics about non-DT type music, but I wasn't really around then so don't know how it actually was (hearsay). Nor with other bands if there has been similar fanboyish behavior where the fans of certian bands try to dominate the board with discussion about their favourite band. I appreciate the passion of people who want to share their passion for certaian bands/albums, but it can go overboard, and can be difficult when there are many of the same musical clique doing the same (say, as I have seen happen, when people come en masse to PA from a band website to push their agenda). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 13:01
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I haven't cared about Rush since I was a teenager, but I've never cared for VdGG at all. Therefore, "2112". ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 13:06
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I think the point Hercules was making is that there seems to him to be an unnaturally high amount of VDGG fans here considering their popularity in the seventies. He feels they are over representeted when compared to the national average. As evidenced by his own Prog group I suppose. In think it's kind of nice that they have found more fame at last. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 14:08
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I got his point, but was following on a tangent (something that Herc has mentioned a number of times). Incidentally, i'm knot that knowledgeable about the popularity of bands historically, but I do know that VdGG was pretty popular in Italy, and made their charts, and Pawn Hearts sold very well there. I wouldn't expect the music of VdGG to have the same level of mainstream success as Rush -- Rush is popular outside Prog/ underground music circles, whereas VdGG is more esoteric. I wonder how popular Rush was during Prog's 70s heyday around the world compared to VdGG? Rush has beena staple of classic rock radio for as long as I can remember, and I didn't even know VdGG, or Gentle Giant and many others, until I really started exploring Prog about ten years ago, but I'd been into Rush since I was 12 (I'm in Canada and Rush has been super big here for a very long time). I dodn't readily equate knownness with how good something is though (most of the progressive rock universe music I love is more obscure than VdGG), not how good it will be for me. I've known Rush much longer but I like VdGG much more. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 14:17
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VDGG weren't very big in the UK in the seventies. But no one was compared to Yes, Genesis and ELP. Italy has always been more receptive to alternative - to - pop music as far as I can tell. Rush were pretty big I remember. They were certainly doing big concerts. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 18:26
Completely correct.
The thing about my local group is that we are mostly British. The fact that progarchives has a more international base may account for the very different tastes. VDGG were never a major band in the 70s in the UK but they did have some success in Europe (mainly Italy, I think). I suspect many on here are also new converts to prog and my experience is that they tend to favour the more experimental side (eg Mars Volta, Zappa, King Crimson, SGM) with an almost messianistic zeal.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 18:31
I saw Rush live in 1977 and they were not considered a prog band AT ALL then; they were a hard rock band (bordering on metal) and their genius was to carry their hard rock fanbase with them when they went prog as well as picking up disgruntled prog fans whose favourite bands had gone mainstream. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: MoodyRush
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 23:58
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Both are very good, but 2112 has more memories for me, 2112 being the album that got me crazy into Rush and thus leading me into the rabbit hole that is prog. Plague is very good as well, but doesn't transition well at parts. The circus-esque part is annoying to me. ------------- Follow me down to the valley below. Moonlight is bleeding from out of your soul. -Lazarus |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 04:45
VdGG were a 'cult' band in Britain, but they were certainly not "extremely minor" as you say. They definitely weren't "major" but they played to audiences of about 1,200 - 1,500 in the UK. That's at least moderately successful. And they were on the cover of Melody Maker in May '71 as "Britain's Most Fashionable Band." Just being on the cover of MM alone would imply some sort of success level, but being called Britain's Most Fashionable Band was definitely a feather in their cap. But it's true that they could just never get over the hump, and they never had anything close to a 'hit' although many Brits knew "Theme One" because John Peel used it to open and close his show. You and your friends might have hated VdGG and so they were avoided by you and not on your radar, but they still were on the radar of many 'heads'. And as you correctly state, VdGG were very popular on the continent in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, etc. I think your intense dislike of them (which you've expressed before on this forum) gets your nose out of joint whenever they do well in a poll. I've seen other VdGG-detractors/haters express this same thing, and even do an almost mocking sort of thing where it's said that this is the only place that VdGG can do well because they have no other fans other than on ProgArchives, which is a joke. Many VdGG admirers aren't into any other prog bands and certainly wouldn't be hanging out on a prog internet forum! I've seen VdGG several times in the UK, since they reformed, in auditoriums/theaters with crowds ranging from 1,200 - 3,000 and of all the VdGG heads I've met, only a minor fraction even knew what ProgArchives or Progressiveears was. Hammill and VdGG are considered the 'hipper' end of prog and get glowing articles in Mojo, Uncut, The Wire, etc... that just ain't going to happen for Gentle Giant, Camel, etc. A lot of their 'hipness' comes from the fact that they were an inspiration to many punk rockers (another fact that drives fans of more conventional prog bonkers), but the fact is that VdGG is far more respected by the hipper-than-thou British music critics than almost any other prog band. Like it or not, that's a major feather in the cap and has helped them to sell a lot of albums (or CD's, I should say!). ------------- jc |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 04:51
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As far as Plague vs 2112, I was never a big Rush fan and remember hearing 2112 in high school. Maybe I'd like it more now. I will say this, though. Rush was influenced by VdGG so 2112 may have been influenced by the grand scope of Plague. Wouldn't surprise me. ------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 04:54
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 05:45
1) http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/20060426ugo.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcripts/20060426ugo.htm UGO: In the 1970s, there were lots of amazing progressive rock bands that played very technically complex music. Was that what you were born from? GEDDY: As our tastes got more obscure, we discovered more progressive rock based, bands like Yes, Van Der Graaf Generator and King Crimson, and we were very inspired by those bands. They made us want to make our music more interesting and more complex and we tried to blend that with our own personalities to see what we could come up with that was indisputably us. That took a while, but I think 2112 was the first record where we accomplished that and created a sound for ourselves. 2) http://www.musicintheabstract.org/rush-oddities/nardwuar-vs-geddy.htm" rel="nofollow - N: Geddy, what to you is real prog rock? You know, http://www.dynrec.com/elp/" rel="nofollow - G: Well, prog rock, I'm afraid, is a dying or an outdated form of music. Nobody's really carrying the tradition on, but in its day, http://www.soldigit.net/gaudela/vdgg/" rel="nofollow - and, at times, http://www.atlanticrecords.com/genesis" rel="nofollow - and, you know, http://www.nfte.org/" rel="nofollow - - those bands were interesting to me. 3) "Contents Under Pressure: 30 Years of Rush at Home and Away" p.25 "We were influenced by bands like Yes, Genesis, Van der Graaf Generator, Gentle Giant, and ELP. They were progressive bands in every sense of the word, and as musicians we were influenced by that kind of playing and structure." So, Snowdog... why the  ?------------- jc |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 01 2012 at 04:22
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Actually heard 2112 recently and liked it more than I thought I would! ------------- jc |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 01 2012 at 06:17
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I'm equally indifferent to both tracks to be honest. Overall I prefer Rush to VDGG, but VDGG have made some masterful music. Plague, however, just leaves me cold. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 01 2012 at 06:48
Victory. Like i've said before - Rush > VDGG for me, but Plauge is MUCH more fresh to me. So i choose it. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 04:37
I'm the opposite. VdGG is my fave band, but I've heard Plague so many times (and each time is still an adventure) that 2112 would be fresh and 'newer' to me. As for 'Victory', I think Snowdog just wasn't aware that Rush was influenced by VdGG (a fact that Geddy has stated on several occasions), but there still was no reason to post a , which was sort of an ignorant, especially in this case, thing to do. But c'est la vie.------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 04:46
None of this proves that 2112 was inspired by Plague in particular. he seems to have been inspired by other bands too. Highlighting VDGG does not make me miss that. So I disagree basically but maybe your statement is not so laughable. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 04:52
Fair enough. I would just say that Geddy specifically stated that 2112 was inspired by VdGG and a few other prog bands. Plague is the classic sidelong VdGG epic. 2112 is a sidelong epic. So I originally stated that Plague might (i.e. just a possibility) have been an influence, as far as scope and ambition. Don't think one could disagree that it might have been an influence.
------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 05:31
No I couldn't disagree with that. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 05:41
Ian, just curious. Did you ever see VdGG back in the day? I started a thread ages ago (which I just bumped up) asking if anybody saw the group back in the 70's. I've seen the band a hundred times since the '05 reunion (and will fly out to NYC from my home of Chicago at the end of the month to see and hang out with them again), but the 70's VdGG era is almost mythical to someone who wasn't there. It looks like you would have been 15 or 16 in '75/'76. Maybe that was still too young for kids to see concerts, but did you ever see them in the 70s? If so, how was it? ------------- jc |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 05:48
Short answer..no. I was aware of VDGG back then and saw them play on TV but never actually got around to buying any albums back then. Money was in short supply and I chose other bands. Also by some curious chance none of my friends had any albums. I did play with the idea of purchasing something but time passed and I forgot them eventually. I finally bought H to He back in the late nineties or early two thousands in HMV. I didn't like it. But I have heard a lot since then and they are definitely growing on me. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 13:41
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Lighthouse Keepers over 2112 2112 (album) over Pawn Hearts ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 16:00
 Really?-------------
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Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 21:06
I think side two of 2112 a little better thank side one of Pan Hearts. Plus, Rush gets extra points because they're the greatest band ever. ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: June 02 2012 at 21:42
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Plague ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: bucka001
Date Posted: June 05 2012 at 07:26
Damn, just seeing them on TV back then is cool enough for me!  I have a lot of old VdGG/PH TV appearances in my personal collection, but every once in a while I'll come across someone who actually saw them on television in the 70's. Don't know why, but that's just cool to me (probably because of the group's lack of presence in the States, where I'm from; just makes the whole "VdGG in the 70's" thing even more mythical... ). Thanks for sharing.------------- jc |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 05 2012 at 07:29
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Van Damme Generator for me. 2112 is brilliant just before you go out on the town though. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Mista-Gordie
Date Posted: June 07 2012 at 00:59
| VDGG |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: June 08 2012 at 00:04
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I prophesy disaster and then I count the cost... ------------- |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 08 2012 at 22:48
2112 over Lighthouse Keepers Pawn Hearts over 2112 (album) ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: The Jester
Date Posted: August 28 2012 at 00:39
I have the feeling that here in this site if you make a poll, and on one side are Genesis or king Crimson or VDGG, the other side is a lost case!  That's not bad of course. About the poll, I will vote for 2112 because I love this song more that 20 years now. (And to be honest, from VDGG I like/love other songs more)... Hmmm I just an idea for a really interesting poll! I will post it right away! ------------- If anybody wants please visit: http://www.gfreedomathina.blogspot.com/ This is my Blog mostly about Rock music, but also a few other things as well. You are most welcome! Thank you. :) |
Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: August 28 2012 at 04:35
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2112 is actually my favorite Rush song! That's really what started me on prog, but Lighthouse is my favorite Graaf song! In fact, I just discovered it months ago when I was really getting into Graaf. So for the moment, Lighthouse gets my vote. but they're both essential masterpieces in somewhat of the same fashion. Spacey vs. Futurey (?) Spacey wins. VdGG wins. ------------- Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty |