What is "vanilla prog metal"?
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Topic: What is "vanilla prog metal"?
Posted By: Cristi
Subject: What is "vanilla prog metal"?
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 22:37
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I honestly can't figure it out, sounds sarcastic like the term "hair metal" or something (not that i like the genre but the term is mocking) |
Replies:
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 22:40
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You're going to have to provide some more background information, as I have no idea what on the planet Earth you're talking about.
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 22:44
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I would go to Queensryche early DT, Uhh possibly some Sabbath and Judas Priest I suppose. Just go to proto-Prog metal and reach around that era. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 22:46
| I saw the term being used by some users on both PA and MMA and I don't understand what is it suppose to explain? |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 23:12
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I think it's just meant to describe Prog Metal in the vein of DT, Seventh Wonder, Queensryche, Fates Warning, etc. that sounds more like the classic incarnations of the genre rather than more extreme or avant varieties. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 23:35
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^This
------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: SandCastleVirtue
Date Posted: July 07 2012 at 23:55
| Sounds kind of derogatory depending on the context. I prefer the term "earlier" or "straightforward" prog metal |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 00:43
| It refers to mediocre bands that wish they were Dream Theater (God forbid one have real aspirations) |
Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 01:56
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I 'm guessing it means 'bog standard' prog metal. Probably intended to be derogatory and imply blandness- which is a travesty as proper vanilla is fine ingredient and not bland at all  ------------- 
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Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 02:04
Not this. Sabbath were obviously a huge influence on many later metal bands (from soundgarden to mastadon) but if you ignore everything after mob rules (which i'd guess is the norm) then they are hardly vanilla. Judas Priest became a parody of themselves sometime after Unleashed in the East but not sure I'd categorise them as vanilla progressive metal either . -------------
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Horizons wrote:Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 02:26
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Same as vanilla prog, pop, jazz - even if that sort of defeats the purpose of it. It literally means 'normal' or as mentioned above 'classic' or even 'straightforward' depending on the discussion. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 02:47
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It does indeed mean ordinary/ common, or basic, but it is commonly (vanillaly) pejoratively used to mean bland, boring, totally unremarkable, lacking any special qualities or uniqueness being common old garden stuff. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 03:36
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:25
This is what close minded people who have never bothered to try to understand it use it to mean, yes. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:31
If it's real vanilla prog metal, it should have black specks in it. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:31
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It's also typically a term Dream Theater haters like to use.
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 09:32
Nice, I got a chuckle from this.  ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 13:38
Yep, closed minded because I hate when all my bands sound identical |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 13:52
You're closed minded because you THINK they sound identical, and can't hear what makes them each unique. I think the whole "vanilla prog" thing is silliness. Being different for the sake of being different does not make good music. Good music comes from two things: 1) being inspired in a personal way by true life experiences of some sort (even if it's a mythical story, it can be a personal experience) 2) having worked hard to hone your craft. Saying "vanilla prog" has always struck me as being similar to saying "Beethoven sucked because he's not new." Rubbish. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 13:57
I just got in this thread, but  ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:01
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The thing about Beethoven, and other classical music composers, is that he started emulating others for work to learn his craft, but did develop his own style and advance "academic" music. He was an extremely important and influential composer who was very significant in making the transition between the classical and romantic eras. Perhaps one could say that his early compositions are vanilla classical (I wouldn't say so because I think he showed extraordinary ability in composition, and I could not call them dull in that sense of the word vanilla, but he was progressive.
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:03
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Yes, so, to the OP, Cristian, when someone says "Vanilla Prog", unless they are putting it in quotes, what they usually mean is "I hate prog metal and want all my music to sound strange and weird and be anti-everything-that-ever-existed-before and therefore I am very unhappy with all music in general and only like about 4 bands and hate everything else." ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:05
You're kind of rabid about that genre, wouldn't you say? ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:14
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It is true that many bands try to sound like other bands and I think it isn't orginal at all. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:14
You're kind of rabid about letting people know your dislike for it, wouldn't you say? That's my main problem with some people here - the eagerness to share dislike. Makes it hard to find the actual cool people sometimes.  ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:19
Yes, because someone is clearly "closed-minded" if they disagree with you. So sorry, your highness. ------------- 
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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:25
Everyone is just against you aren't they? ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:30
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:35
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I've never thought of any progressive metal as "vanilla;" it's not sweet, it's very meaty and crunchy. Not a vanilla wafer, not vanilla ice cream; more like a good, juicy steak with some homemade fries and chips, and a 32-ounce soda from Quiktrip to provide just a bit sugariness to the whole mix, complementing the more meaty metal sections.
EDIT: Wait - I guess vanilla prog metal is what happens when you add the metaphorical vanilla flavoring to your metaphorical soda from Quiktrip. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:37
No. Tanner has never said that he has disliked any genre, or made it clear. You are now just attacking people for no reason other than they have different opinions than you, with meaningless insults that were already given to you nonetheless. Talk about Genesis, and see how much dislike there is on this forum. Essentially we all get along well unless there is insulting and martyrdom going around. So, being cool means liking all prog metal? ------------- https://aprilmaymarch.bandcamp.com/track/the-badger" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:40
 Never wanted my question/thread to get a bad reaction; I have listened to my share of uninspired and even bad progressive metal albums, DT cloning etc. Never thought of calling them "vanilla" though. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:41
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EDIT. I mixed myself up. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:43
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I think Vanilla Prog Metal would be bands that sound like DT, Symphony X, Fates Warning, and the like. The newer, more extreme bands are trying to do new things. I'm guessing the quality of the vanilla bands or the original bands is not being questioned in the thread, necessarily, just what does the 'vanilla' term mean.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:46
| I hope the term "vanilla prog" does not get picked or used; it's annoying and derogatory, even to name uninspired music. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:49
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As I tend to use the term quite frequently, I'll put the record straight. There are three sub genres of metal here on the site, Progressive Metal, Experimental/Post Metal and Tech/Extreme Metal. All three get reffered to as Prog metal by everyone for ease of use, but in discussions where the broad term prog metal has already been used, I use "vanilla" to diffirentiate between Progressive Metal and the other two subs. The term vanilla gets used because its the one most people readilly identify as prog metal and there are a lot of clones in that sub genre, but it is not always used as a derogatory term (I happen to rather like vanilla, more than most other flavours at least) and just as a way to differentiate prog metal from the other subs. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:52
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"Vanilla" could also be defined as the 'standard' or 'classic'. Could also be used to referred as the one who set the bar. I don't really like the term to be used for music, but it's not necessarily a negative term. It CAN be used as one, so I don't really like it.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:52
Dude...I respect you more and more, Jacob. And cool that you're getting more into DT by the way. But I wouldn't bother trying to save them over on that battle thread - I put "Death" into the mix to prove a point - and it was proven well when immediately after adding them, Dream Theater, Flower Kings, and Pink Floyd were the ones to receive kill votes.
^THIS ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:52
I've come across plenty of "vanilla" tech and post metal, far too many bands want to be Neurosis or Death. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 14:57
Death is actually getting a bunch of kill votes, Max (Fox on the Rocks) and I have been voting against them every time. They're not bad or anything, but there's so many great bands on the list that I like more. Do you like them? ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:03
I'd never even heard of "Death" until recently - probably mostly because I have no interest in Death or Doom metal. I only like growls/screams when they're mixed in with other styles of singing - you may have heard my "hot sauce" analogy before. But no, I put them in the list to see what would happen when a band that clearly does not belong in a top 10 of prog bands was stacked up against a bunch that do, and people kept giving kill votes to the ones that clearly do. The point is: sadly, this place, I believe, has become more about musical disappreciation than musical appreciation since people are more eager to share about what they don't like. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:13
I haven't seen the thread you're referring to, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems strange to use one of the most influential progressive extreme metal bands ever as an example that "clearly" does not belong in a list of top prog bands.  If I've misunderstood, please set me straight. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:14
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"this place".........I only like growls/screams when they're mixed in with other styles of singing - you may have heard my "hot sauce" analogy before. But no, I put them in the list to see what would happen when a band that clearly does not belong in a top 10 of prog bands was stacked up against a bunch that do, and people kept giving kill votes to the ones that clearly do. The point is: sadly, this place, I believe, has become more about musical disappreciation than musical appreciation since people are more eager to share about what they don't like. In the first sentence you tell us what you dislike and in the last sentence you tell us what is wrong with "this Place". It is okay to dislike some music...it is also okay to say you dislike it on the forum.
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:16
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A lot of people like Death, though, and I'm sure some would put them in their top ten bands. Many peope who dislike DT are fans of Death, so it makes sense that they would keep voting for them. You should have picked http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1187" rel="nofollow - Torman Maxt , the most hated band on progarchives, instead.
EDIT - replying to Geoff, two people posted while I was still writing. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:18
 ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:22
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In any case, I have never heard anyone put Death in a list of the top Prog bands, and when I had the idea to put a disliked band into the fray, I went looking at ratings and saw they had an album that had an average barely over 3, with over 100 votes. Yes, I dislike pure 100% death metal growls, but I don't make it a point to tell everyone that. And I've actually listened to a few albums that were mostly growls and found quite a bit of merit to them. Recently I listened to a Meshuggah album and thought it was good, though I don't prefer the vocals, and more recently I listened to Ne Obliviscaris and thought they were quite remarkable despite not being crazy about the vocal style. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:33
Their first three albums were more straight ahead metal, and don't have high ratings on this site. Their last four (Human, Individual Thought Patterns, Symbolic, and The Sound of Perseverance) are more progressive, and all have ratings over 4 stars with 126-260 ratings each. I prefer when metal bands mix the heavy portion of their sound with more soft/ambient sections, both in the music and in the vocal style (I think it adds more variety and makes it more interesting and listenable), but I like death growls too. UneXpect mixes clean vocals with growls a lot, you should try them, though they might be a bit extreme for your tastes. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:44
I've heard that name. Haven't tried them yet. They will have to go on http://rateyourmusic.com/list/dtguitarfan/my_to_listen_to_list/" rel="nofollow - the list , which is getting longer and longer since I started it.... My favorites, as far as mixing grows with other vocals styles, are Epica and Orphaned Land, by the way. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:51
Looked at the list; you should listen to Iona as soon as you can, their music is breathtakingly beautiful, and they have to be in my top five favorite bands, though I'm still exploring the rest of their catalog. Start with the live album Heaven's Bright Sun, as it provides an excellent introduction to the way the band sounds, and the performances even surpass the quality of the studio albums. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 15:55
Thanks! I'll keep that in mind! Right now, 2012 albums are taking high precedence because I have decided to try for 100 2012 albums by the end of the year. I'm at 50 now.... But I'll put Iona near to the top to remind me when I'm taking a break from 2012 stuff. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:05
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The important question that is being overlooked here is that if there such a thing as vanilla prog metal, what would the black specks actually consist of?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:15
The scattered death growls? Technical mistakes? Unnecessary notes? Power chords? F# minor chords? ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:27
Dark matter. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:30
Then if dark matter is everywhere, wouldn't there be black spots in chocolate and strawberry progressive metal too? ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: silveraindrop75
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:37
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well, it's got to mean: vanilla--white/caucasian/fair skinned people prog: progressive music therefore, progressive music played exclusively by white people. White prog supremacy? More examples: Vanilla Ice Blue Eyed Soul Vanilla Fudge All of these artists imply a wite peorson who is representing a genre of music historically associated with black or African American culture. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:44
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Side note inspired by silveraindrop75 - anyone know of any good African prog?
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:47
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Myrath is actually the only band I know of from the African continent, but you're already aware of them.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 16:55
I have to agree with VVV on this. If you havent noticed yet, there are quite a few people here who generally prefer Exp/post and X-tech to vanilla prog metal (see what I mean about it being a difirentiating term) so putting Death, one of the most iconic and influentel exteme metal bands of all time up against DT (and TFK, it tends to be that Death fans wont like TFK either) was always going to provide a close race. BTW, of the bands you mentioned in your previous post on this (Dream Theater, The Flower Kings, Pink Floyd and Death), none of them would make my top 10 bands and only PF would get close. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 19:31
Torman Maxt isn't so bad, actually. Too much blind hate towards them IMO because of the sh*tstorm one review caused some years ago.
Hmm, that would go to post-metal, I think. They are definitely the other side of this coin and manage to sound even more alike between each other than the vanilla prog metal bands, even though every band supposedly have different influences from each other. -------------   
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: July 08 2012 at 21:14
I haven't actually heard any of their stuff, I had just read reviews and heard people call them the "most hated band." I did notice that their latest release has a 3.5 rating or something; it seems like the only one people really hate is "The Problem of Pain, Part 1." ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: July 09 2012 at 08:41
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From what I gather, I can picture "Vanilla Prog Metal" as someone who listened to King Crimson's Red, tried to make an album in that vain and failed miserably.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: July 09 2012 at 20:59
Making a long story short, that is because some years ago (probably as way for M@X to make the site more profitable), bands could pay for a prime spot at the site's homepage. For some time that worked quite well and it was (in my opinion, let me be clear) a great breath of fresh air, specially regarding new bands. Then Tormant Maxt jumped on that wagon for their now lowest rated album, Problem of Pain 1, and somebody s*at a huge 1 star review on the album, basically telling that is was the worst thing in the history of mankind. The guys kindly asked M@X to remove it at least as long as they were paying for the spot. Then there was an "outcry" and "accusations" of censorship and whatnot; instead of letting things cool down, the guys from Tormant Maxt fed the flame war that followed with tons of gallons of gasoline. By that time, I was only lurking at the forums, possibly before I was a member, so I couldn't see everything (I think there was a lot happening behind the scenes), but that's what I recall of it. They weren't the only ones to crap all over their fandom, though. Even though it happened before I was a member, I know that Trent Gardner, from Magellan, had some altercations in this forum and is quite disliked by some of the older members (most of whom don't browse here anymore for various reasons); Steven Wilson also had his problems with PA, if he wasn't so bloody brilliant (and if PA wasn't constantly fed new members eager for progressive rock), his page(s) would be as dead as Magellan's and Tormant Maxt's.
I'm pretty sure there were more people, but those are the most famous, as far as I recall. -------------
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Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: July 09 2012 at 21:00
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"What is 'vanilla prog metal'?" The worst kind. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: July 09 2012 at 21:04
Wasn't the troll line some pages back? -------------
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 06:10
Torman Maxt were actually the first band to pay for the featured spot. I can see why it got so many 1 star reviews, I downloaded it last year and its got my first ever 1 star review, a painful experience to go through listening to that album. Vangough and Mono were more successful in the featured spots though. I've heard about that Magellan interview but have never been able to find it to read it for my self, I'd like to know what got everybody annoyed. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 08:22
Yeah, I've got into Mono from that spot, one of the few post rock bands I actually enjoy. As for Magellan, I think that interview was hidden by the admins in order to stop the flamewar/hate and avoid the possibility of legal action. I don't even know if that's really possible, but the US justice system is crazy, so you never know. -------------
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 08:31
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What an awful lot of feelings such words can provide. If you know what You like, you dont give a damn ! Sure Porcupine Tree, would be considered Vanilla, if you compare them to some Chinese prog band, playing Temple bells and singing backwards in a unik local dialect, but thats not the same as they are bad. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 20:09
I'm a bit slow these days >_> ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |