Favourite Dream Theater Epic?
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Topic: Favourite Dream Theater Epic?
Posted By: zeqexes
Subject: Favourite Dream Theater Epic?
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 03:07
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I'd have to go with Octavarium. A Change of Seasons would be next. What is your favourite Dream Theater epic? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 05:43
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That's a toughie for me. I do love Octavarium quite a bit, but I think I'd go with "In The Presence of Enemies" - I like to queue up parts 1 and 2 back to back and go through the whole thing.
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List 
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Posted By: Roj
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 07:32
Exactly my favourite too  , great choice.6DOIT is close but after The Test That Stumped Them All it tends to drift off a bit. A Change of Seasons is special too.
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dtguitarfan wrote:Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 08:26
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I've never been able to realize which one is the best between these masterpieces: - A Change of Season - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Octavarium I mean.. I'm only human.. This is too tough...
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 08:31
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Very hard question. I mean come on!! There is so many! 😁 Ok, well I won't be a cop out so I'll pick PART 8 ( LOSING TIME) of 6 DEGREES OF INNER TURBULANCE. Serious Majesty in that track. Another is definately ANOTHER WON and A CHANGE OF SEASONS, which is a freak of nature. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 11:41
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Octavarium Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence A Change of Seasons A Nightmare To Remember The Count of Tuscany In The Presence of Enemies In The Name of God All are amazing! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: AlexDOM
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 12:25
| A Change of Seasons, the poetic nature of that song is beyond this life (sorry for just doing that). |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 12:49
| Six Degrees is easily my favorite. Octavarium a close second. Actually, The Count of Tuscany would be my number two, if it weren't for the incredibly bad lyrics. A Change of Seasons would probably be third for me. |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 13:46
| ^ Agreed for The Count of Tuscany. Lyrics and music are just like black and white.. |
Posted By: WisdomBeginsInWonder
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 13:58
dude this are also my best songs from DT six degrees of inner turbulence is my number 10 song from progressive rock sounds <3 -------------  |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 16:13
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I gotta say that VOICES off the AWAKE album is up there. Great lyrics. LABRIE sings his ass off on that one. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 16:26
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I wouldn't label Voices as an epic. One of their best, though... Talking about LaBrie singing his ass off, I think The Killing Hand off Live at the Marquee would be the best example. Don't know if it's overdubbed in studio or not, but hell, I miss that LaBrie...
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 17:01
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You know, what makes VOICES so epic to me is the VOICE that carries the song. LaBrie, the way he sustains and holds the main chorus notes to like octave 8 is just incredible and very epic sounding to me. The tune is a 9+ minute gem, so it is layered enough to get my vote for having an epic nature. Some cases I think your right in regards to the music itself, but the voice is its own maddening force. Brilliant job. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 17:28
Seconded. The actual music in The Count of Tuscany is OK, but the silly lyrics just ruin the song for me. I mean how can you compare this: "I want to stay alive Everything about this placeJust doesn't feel right I I don't want to die Suddenly I'm frightened for my life" to this?: "Life was filled with wonder I felt the warm wind blowI must explore the boundaries Transcend the depth of winter's snow Innocence caressing me I never felt so young before There was so much life in me Still I longed to search for more But those days are gone now Changed like a leaf on a tree Blown away forever into the cool autumn breeze" -------------
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 17:37
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So...you actually care about the lyrics? Haha, kind of kidding there - lyrics are important, but for me they've always been the whipped cream on the sundae. More important to me is the music itself - the vocals, the harmonies, the instrumentals, etc.
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: hobocamp
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 17:44
| Metropolis Part 1 |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 17:53
No, I don't. In fact, I love The Count.
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Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 18:01
Yeah, I do agree with you - however, good lyrics are always better than bad lyrics  -------------
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 18:43
| Octavarium for me, easily. Even though Change of Seasons, Count of Tuscany, and Nightmare to Remember are also great. As well as In the Presence of Enemies, but the part I like most of it is the first, which is presented separated from the rest of the song in the album. |
Posted By: RedNightmareKing
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 19:55
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Hmmm, this is a tough one! In no particular order... Octavarium The Count of Tuscany A Change of Seasons The Ministry of Lost Souls (Seriously, how hasn't this been mentioned yet. Wonderful track!) ------------- I consider drone metal to be progressive... |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 20:39
The shortest one because it is over quicker. 
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Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 22:19
...cannot...compute... -------------
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 22:39
It is an opinion that is shared throughout PA. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: September 25 2012 at 23:08
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Zeqexes, on these Archives many people think D.Theater are a hugely defining, technical, impressive and very important modern progressive band, while just as many find them to be the most tedious, overwrought, unemotional and clinical bore! I fall right in between those two, and can completely understand both arguments! I totally sit on the fence with this band! 
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 02:52
It's also kind of annoying. Yeah lots of people don't like DT, I get it. It's not that funny any more. Doesn't help that a lot of the fans are a bit crazy about them, but still, it's a bit pretentious to have a go at DT every single time they are mentioned... I still enjoy them from time to time, even if they are a little silly sometimes  In answer to the question, I think my favourite would have to be In The Presence Of Enemies. Not a popular opinion because of the dumb lyrics, but I honestly don't expect a lyrical masterpiece when I listen to a DT track ------------- 
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 06:47
DREAM THEATER are easy one of the most brilliant, technically complex bands in prog and easily the world. People, I feel, make fun of DREAM THEATER because they are just so incredibly technical and some people just don't get it. It is my experience that people often fear and belittle what they don't understand. I call those people closet case idiots. Anyway, just ignor those morons who actually have the audacity to make fun of them. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 07:22
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DT has haters like every single band on the earth. Everyone has its tastes, not a big deal. Honestly, I find most of King Crimson's albums to be more boring, pretentious and unuseful than most of DT's tracks, but who cares? Talkin about lyrics, has anybody figured out what Metropolis pt. 1 is about?
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 08:19
The music is the most important aspect, for sure. However, if you are going to have lyrics at all, they should, at the very least, not be totally ridiculous. Which they are on The Count of Tuscany. I still listen to it, because the music is great, but it does sort of take away from the grandness when I find myself giggling uncontrollably at certain points. Maybe if they didn't seem so serious about the silly lyrics, I would feel differently (I'm a Zappa fan, so I can appreciate deliberately silly lyrics). |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 10:15
What if they were trying to seem serious about silly lyrics on purpose in order to be more silly? A la Andrew Kaufman?  ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 10:24
John Petrucchi has a way of starting off a story and then having it make no sense. Metropolis part 1 deals with the maracle (the after life) and the sleeper(hypnotheripists) who originally puts the main character NICHOLAS into after life orbit. Now I really can't say today how metropolis pt 1 and 2 really connect with one other lyrically. It doesn't make sense just like the track THE KILLING HAND. we just have to guess or assume what happens. Kills me!! Anyway, terrific question, but I'm just as baffled as you. 😁 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 10:57
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Tie between Mind Beside Itself and Learning to Live. ------------- RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on! http://www.last.fm/music/Exerior" rel="nofollow - EXERIOR Experimental tech/death/progmetal from Norway! |
Posted By: JoeyPS
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 11:05
| Octavarium. I LOVE the melancholy beginning segments. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 11:12
Shine On You Crazy Rudess? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: JoeyPS
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 11:22
haha You can really hear the Genesis meets Floyd influence. "Supper's Ready" meets "Echoes"?
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Posted By: Chozal
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 11:29
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A Change of Season, then In The Name of God. Octavarium is not far behind. EDIT : if we allow songs under 20 minutes, then it's Metropolis pt.1, Change of Season, Learning to Live, and then In The Name Of God. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Infinite-Progability-Drive/141225469388975" rel="nofollow - The Infinite Progability Drive , feeding you daily progressive/weird music for just a like <3 |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 11:39
Actually I heard that the whole story of Metropolis Parts 1 & 2 are a modern retelling of the mythical tale of Romulus and Remus, the sons of Mars.... ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 12:52
| I'm not sure what qualifies as an "epic", but the only 10+ minute Dream Theater songs I'm familiar with and enjoy are "The Glass Prison" and "Learning to Live". |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 15:01
| It must be at least 15+ min to be classified as an epic to me. |
Posted By: zeqexes
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 16:54
I agree. If you're going to classify an epic as 10+ min then half of DT's songs would be an 'epic'. -------------
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 19:08
Oh big time!!! Count of Tuscony too. Huge FLOYD influences ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 19:27
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Even though I'm not a big fan of the band, could I cheat and vote for all of `Scenes From A Memory'?! I truly enjoy that one, and I consider the entire CD to be one continious piece! It's labelled `Scenes 1 - etc', so I think I'm justified!
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 20:18
Nope. Cheating. 😜 pick IN THE NAME OF GOD. that's a good one that know one has picked yet. 👌 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 20:26
See, here's the thing...Because I'm not a massive fan of them (although I do have all their albums, go figure!), I can't even think which track that is!  I'll have to go and look at the actual CD's of theirs from my shelf and go `Oh, right, that long one on `xxx' album!' etc! I'll get back with an updated answer!
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Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 20:39
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The Count of Tuscany. For some reason, the vocals of A Change of Seasons seem too corny and repetetive. ------------- https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 21:00
Oh man go listen to it!!! The last 5 minutes are crazy epic. It's off the TRAIN OF THOUGHT album. Track 7 my friend. Enjoy. I will make a fan of you yet!!! 😜 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 21:16
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You're sort of half way there, because I truly don't dislike the band! Just that I always choose other things over them to listen to. I even have several of their live DVD's, but I almost never make it through them! After an hour I want to put my head through the wall! I do like the `Train Of Thought' album, I know it was dismissed by a number of the more `prog-loving' of their fans for being TOO metal, but I always thought there was plenty of good stuff on it. Just haven't listened to it in years! |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 22:39
In my opinion, you can't really distinguish between the lyrics and all those other elements you listed; the lyrics aren't some separate topping dropped arbitrarily onto a song, they're an integral part of the whole piece and are just as important as the melodies, guitar riffs, drum part, etc. and thus can affect a song in the same way that those other elements do. Of course, sometimes you can just try to ignore the lyrics, which is pretty much what I do with The Count of Tuscany. I think the song would have been perfect if they had kept the music but scrapped the whole lyrical concept and wrote something different instead. Still a great song, though. As for my favorite DT epic, it has to be Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, without hesitation. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: September 26 2012 at 22:42
I'm pretty sure that part 1 is based upon the myth of Romulus and Remus and the founding of Rome, but I don't think part 2 has anything to do with it. To Progbethyname: you have to look at parts 1 and 2, not as two parts of a story, but as an extraction of a story from the themes of an existing work. I think I've read that the "Part 1" thing was meant as a joke, but then people started looking for a part 2. The band took some of the themes explored in Part 1 and made them into a story (and one of the best stories I've ever heard, to boot). ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 06:17
I hear you man, but for me I honestly don't care much about lyrics - I like plenty of stuff that's sung in languages I don't understand...and instrumental music too.... ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 06:33
Well, I had heard part 2 was also a myth retelling, but if it is, it's a lesser known one because I've never been able to find exactly which one. But my understanding of the story is that it goes like this: There are two lovers, and a jealous former lover. Jealous gets drunk and goes out to kill new lover, ends up killing them both accidentally and covers it up, making it look like a murder/suicide and totally gets away with it. This ticks off the Fates, though, because...well, that was basically their favorite soap opera they were watching and Jealous just cancelled it. So they plant the memories of the two lovers into - I think his name was Nicholas? - into Nick's head. Nick doesn't understand why he is having visions of these things that aren't his own memories, so he sees a hypnotherapist. And through hypnotherapy Nick figures out what really happened and solves this old mystery. That's my bad summary and I'm sticking to it. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 07:05
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The Scenes From a Memory plot is quite known, and it is widely explained here: http://faq.dtnorway.com/question?questionid=1032" rel="nofollow - http://faq.dtnorway.com/question?questionid=1032 It's the Part 1 meaning that's still a half mystery to me, like almost all of I&W lyrics Hovewer, the same site above says: It is based
on the story of a telepathically-linked Romulus and Remus from Virgil's Aeneid.
It has no relation to the 1927 movie Metropolis. Petrucci wrote it as a sort of
fantasy epic, inspired by the likes of Yes and Rush. The story itself is
original (the twins are named Miracle and Sleeper and do not appear in
literature) but the story type was Homeric. It is linked to part 2 (Scenes From
a Memory) in that Edward and Julian Baynes are metaphors for Romulus and Remus,
and Victoria is a metaphor Rome (or the 'Metropolis'). This is supported by
several lyrical lines in Scenes From a Memory.
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 10:26
Actually, that spacey section was inspired by Gershwin''s "Rhapsody In Blue". ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 11:17
Find that hard to believe. But even if so, it's a dead ringer for Shine on ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 11:57
Well there it is. The extraction of a story with in another story. Kind of like a story with in a story. Hey? Wait a minute...that's a juxtaposition! Why didn't I think I that. Anyway it is to my feeling now that great music doesnt always have to make sense, but METROPOLIS PT 2 makes perfect sense. That story is as clear as day like ARYEON's THE HUMAN EQUATION. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:07
See no, now you've just gone to far. See those 'crazy' DT fans I was talking about. The ones who abandon all logic and reason for their fandom. You sound like one of them... I like DT. I have seen DT live. I have a DT shirt even, but they are not anything that you said. They are a consistent, popular, driving force in the world of prog. They bring a lot of new people into the genre and we have to celebrate them for that, but they aren't the most innovative or technical. Love them or hate them you can't deny they're very important to the prog world right now.
It just isn't -------------
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:17
What? You have a T-Shirt!? Well this changes everything. Your opinion matters a lot more now.....ummm.....not technical...not innovative. Well then hey! I can say you sound like hater or a discretator for DT. I mean come on man....not technical??? Logic has been ripped from your prog sphere for sure then. 😒. You tell me who you really like? I would like to know your favourite band. Just curious that's all. We're all friends here 👊 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:17
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JS19 and Snow Dog - Listen to the Liquid Tension Experiment - Live in NYC 2008 (not sure about the LA one, I haven't heard it). They perform Rhapsody In Blue, during which a spacey section VERY similar to the spacey section in TCOT is played; same key, similar guitar swells and keyboard sounds, etc.. You can't tell me that that wasn't the inspiration for that section, as the music for BC&SL was written in 2008, not long after those LTE reunion shows. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:28
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Well actually, they almost invented the progressive metal genre, or at least they created his guidelines and clichès. Isn't it innovative?The fact is that very often they are accused of abusing of patterns and clichés that are typical of progressive metal, forgetting that most of these clichés have been invented by them! In addition, I find that almost every DT album has a different mood, a particular approach and a way of composing that makes it different one another. I don't like very much when they close themselves in those pointless-techique things, in fact Train of Thoughts is their weakest album IMO, but I think there is so much under their superficial mask of shredders.
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:36
Yeah, sure, I'll admit I've heard more innovative or technical bands...but most of them I just don't like as they pretty much sound like noise. In all seriousness, though, DT are very technical and innovative but know how to reign it in and keep the music pleasant to the ears at the same time. ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 12:51
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I heard Metropolis Part 2 was actually going to be called Metropolis Part 3: The Search For 2.
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 13:22
Okay, I might not be qualified to say this because I don't have a Dream Theater t-shirt, but I never quite understood the purpose of the Metropolis 2 story. I perfectly understand what's going on and as this thread informs me it's apparently an allusion to the story of Romulus and Remus, but I have to ask: To what end? Is the story trying to tell us anything? Or did they just write the story for the sake of having a story |
Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 13:29
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Following your logic, then we should start to question any band ever who decided to write a concept album/rock opera. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 13:35
Might as well ask why any story was written - why did Homer write The Odyssey? ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 13:59
Yes, we should. But at least I can tell you that The Wall is an outlet for Roger Waters' personal problems, that Animals is a political analogy and that The Lamb is some ultra messed-up version of Pilgrim's Progress. What is Metropolis Pt. 2 about? From what I understand, its meaning doesn't go any deeper than the key points of the plot: reincarnation and a love triangle.
For historical, mythological and probably also religious reasons. |
Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 14:30
And that in and of itself is not suffice? If it just a love story involving reincarnation then that is what it is. Does it need to be "deep" to be worthwhile? It loosely based off the movie Dead Again (Kenneth Branagh, Andy Garcia, Emma Thompson). The irony here is that many prog fans consider Dream Theater over the top and feel they play without any emotion. So now someone is basically saying their lyrics are somewhat pragmatic and serve no purpose unless the meaning runs deeper? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, my friend. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 14:52
I think the "reason" for the story can be summed up in Dream Theater's own words from the album: Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die? What lies beyond And what lay before? Is anything certain in life? Admin edit, full lyrics removed for copyright reasons ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 15:00
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...and now I have that song lodged within my brain and will simple have to interrupt my carefully constructed playlist in order to listen to the album! ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 15:50
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 15:52
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Count of Tuscany obviously - this typo twitch js pecking my head...
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 16:37
I think it does. I don't care about love triangles and reincarnation by default, so the story has to have something else that makes me interested in those topics. Like, you know, a central message. Or some kind of unique insight on the matter. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect a philosophical treatise. Simple lyrics are fine, and as long as the music is good, I can ignore even the worst batch of lyrics (and these are far from the worst). But if you go the extra mile of making a concept album and placing so much emphasis on the lyrics, you better have something to say.
I don't see the irony. First of all, what is pragmatic about lyrics that have no deeper meaning? And where is the connection between the 'no emotion' accusation and the 'no deeper meaning' accusation? Are lyrics with a deeper meaning less emotional? Even if there were a connection, I don't belong to the group who says Dream Theater play without emotion anyway, so if you're trying to insinuate that what I'm saying is somehow inconsistent or contradicts itself, that's not the case. Just because I criticize a band for something, that doesn't mean I agree with all other criticisms against them.
I don't buy it. If the "message" of the album is that the spirit carries on after you die, then isn't it kind of counterproductive that the album ends with the shocking and unexpected death of the protagonist? And yes, I'm being pedantic, but if this were a movie or a book, I doubt it would get very good reviews. There seems to be kind of a double standard when it comes to lyrics. |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 16:57
Oh, go boil your bottom, you son of a silly person. I listen to, read, and watch stories that don't have deep messages all the time, and that doesn't make them bad stories - and I'll bet you do the same. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. Also, you're missing the point. The point is, the protagonist, in struggling to understand these memories that aren't his own, comes to a catharsis and realizes there is more to this life, and in so doing finds peace. And that's a beautiful thing. Much better than a political album.... ------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 17:21
As I said above, I don't want deeper meaning in everything. I like my mindless entertainment as much as anybody. The point is that if you go the extra mile of making a story with such a complex narrative, I'd like to have at least some payoff. If this were just a story about a love triangle, I'd think "whatever". But the story is so complex and multilayered that I think "there must be something more to this; this must serve some bigger purpose", only to find out that the complexity of the story was an end to itself. And that kind of makes me feel like I wasted my time trying to understand a story that gave me nothing in return.
I understand that very well, but doesn't the ending destroy all that? The protagonist is finally at peace with himself and not afraid of dying, only to be killed immediately afterwards in a way that is implied to be abrupt and shocking. That's either an unnecessary "haha, fooled you" plot twist or ineffective storytelling. I understand that if a character stops being afraid of dying, it's only consequential that he has to die, if only to prove to the reader/listener/viewer that death is nothing to be afraid of. But Nicholas' death is just the opposite: It's abrupt, it's unsettling and it's followed by nothing but static. If death is not the end, then how come death is the literal end of the album? That only makes me question the sincerity of the earlier message. |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 18:04
That's where you're wrong. It could be, sometimes, not there must be.
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 18:27
You're quoting what I clearly designated as a personal opinion and representing it out of context as if it were a fact. I never said "every story must have a deeper meaning or else it sucks". I'm saying "this particular story lacks a deeper meaning which would have made the effort I put into deciphering it feel worthwhile to me". And of course, if it wasn't already obvious, this is all my opinion. You are allowed to disagree and I'm not trying to get anybody to feel the same way about the story. |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 18:49
Sorry for my bad quote. I don't want to say you put it out as an universal truth, all of the posts here are personal opinions obviously, and also my disagreement about that was MY personal opinion, since I don't feel like Scenes From a Memory should have some other secondary meaning. Maybe it's because I usually dont care too much about lyrics...
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 18:59
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SCENES OF A MEMORY definately has meaning, METROPOLIS PT 1?......well??....word is out on that one for me. Anyway, I'd label METROPOLIS PT 2: scenes of a memory as one of the very best concept albums of all time! It would rank #2 only behind QUEENSRCHE's OPERATION MINDCRIME. 😊 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 19:02
| But the question is: is "Scenes From a Memory" a concept album of a whole single song? |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 19:10
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I do indeed have a t-shirt .My favourite band is shared between three - Neurosis, hammock and..... a little band called Dream Theater. That backfired on you didn't it? You are right though, I'm a complete DT hater. Can't stand them. (please get the sarcasm here...) Which is why I think it's hilarious you brand me a 'hater' when I don't agree with your insane opinions. I love DT but they're just not anything you said, and no band is anywhere near as good as you make them out to be. I have an issue with you not with Dream Theater
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 21:02
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^ still haven't told me your band? Come on, who is so innovative that you can say DT is not?? I admit I gotta beef with that cause DT is very innovative, so much so where many other bands have a strong affinity to trying to emulate them. Listen, DT are well know to be the GODFATHERS OF PROGRESSIVE METAL. How does that mean anything to you? They basically took the progressive metal genre to a far more technical level than any other band on the planet. 👌 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 21:31
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If Dream Theater are the Godfathers of progressive metal, what does that make Queensryche and Fates Warning, chopped liver? I thought everyone agreed that Dream Theater was just a good heavy metal Rush tribute band. Where's all this 'innovation'? Man, The Beatles were innovation. Hendrix was innovation. The first man to invent (and subsequently play) a stringed instrument was innovation. What the hell did DT bring to the musical world other than breakneck guitar playing speed and unnecessarily complex arrangements?
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 21:54
 chopped liver?? Certainly not!! Fates and queens are 2 of my most favourite and beloved bands and they are both incredible contemporaries with DT in the prog metal genre. Speaking fundamentally though, the level of musicianship is greater in DT music and the major innovation that DT pocesses with in the prog metal scene is the layered, complex sound arrangements that are really a cut above than any other band in progressive metal. That's one thing that I think is very special that DT has. Taking thrash metal, tech/extream and classic rock all into one creative unbelievable force of sound is DT's Paton. Now keep in mind, every prog band has those creative forces(bands) that inspire thier creativity and certainly DT's is the RUSH's and QUEENSRCHE's of this world. Let's make no mistake, DT pocesses innovation, brilliance, virtuaso and technical song arrangements. I feel that SCENES OF A MEMORY really typlifies this and was a defining moment in DT's career. That album takes prog metal to new and interesting heights and is still relevant today.  ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: September 27 2012 at 22:13
Perfect answer Metropolis Part 2 is a story about death and redemption. So are a lot of other great stories. The album ends with Nicholas' death because he's finally at peace and ready to die. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 03:02
Do you have trouble with english? -------------
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 03:07
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Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 05:28
I think the idea just a love story would have been quite bland. Adding the reincarnation theme gave it a bit of an interesting twist. It's no Operation:Mindcrime, but I don't get the "you better have something to say" comment. Can't a story just be a good story without it having "something to say?" As far as the 'no emotion' and 'no deeper meaning' comments, that wasn't necessarily directed at you. I've been reading a lot of these negative posts directed at Dream Theater and it is quite disconcerting. I get it. There are some Dream Theater fans who are obnoxious and shove them in your face. That irritates me too. I am far from a fan boy. However they are an extremely rare combination of talent these days and I feel bad for people who can't see that. No one says you have to like them but to deny their proficiency is utterly ignorant. For example, I am not a Hendrix fan but I will never deny what he did for the guitar. That would be completely ignorant on my part. I've read some posts claiming that Dream Theater are repetitive and only play unnecessarily complex arragments as fast as they can. This is just purely ignorant....and this is why.... Another Day, Surrounded, Wait for Sleep, Eve, The Silent Man, The Mirror, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream, Space Dye Vest, Don't Look Past Me, You Not Me, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, Anna Lee, Strange Deja Vu, Through Her Eyes, One Last Time, The Spirit Carries On, Finally Free, Misunderstood, Disappear, Goodnight Kiss, etc etc.. You see my frustration... |
Posted By: dtguitarfan
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 05:35
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Prog Snob - best to just ignore the idiots. Believe me, complaining only gives them more strength. Yeah, there is way too much negativity towards music around here - and it's not just DT. You just see people hating on DT more because they are the ones selling millions of copies of their album these days (with the only other Prog band that is comparable in sales being Rush).
------------- http://tinyurl.com/cy43zzh" rel="nofollow - My 2012 List
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Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 05:47
I am allowed to vent...occasionally. If I acted like good little boy, I wouldn't be living up to my name. 
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Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 06:15
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I am not buying ito the DT as a heavy Rush tribute band.....I think that the closest they get to rush is the start of COT - and lets be honest thats probably as good as any of the most superlative rush efforts - 1975-1980 (then the synth-pop era of rush begins).....A lot of DT stuff has more than a nod to Floyd/Genesis/Yes with bits of sabbath/purple/metallica blended in.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 07:20
We DT fans band together to stop the idiot storm!!! 😊 well said man. I just got a little frustrated that people were saying dt lacks innovation. Aghhhhhh! ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 07:33
Sure, but I don't think it's a good story. As I said, I'm not interested in love triangles and reincarnation by themselves and the story has nothing else to offer besides that. If you think differently, good for you.
Oh, I totally see that. I realize that my dislike for most of the stuff Dream Theater have done besides Images and Words boils down to preference in the end.
I don't agree with the charge that Dream Theater are repetitive and unnecessarily complex, but let's play devil's advocate: "Just because they throw in some ballads from time to time, that doesn't mean the rest of their stuff isn't emotionless, needlessly complex and all the same."
The guy you accused of saying that, JS19, didn't even say it. He said that "they aren't the most innovative or technical", that's all. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 08:14
Oh God a DT fan love-in. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 08:39
. Right on my friend. You see it for what it is. I was just a bit upset because some (in this forum) felt dt had no individuality or innovation I should say. I will always defend my band with logic. I feel your not a rational prog fan if you don't think dt are innovative. Whats up with that? Anyway, like what you had to say. Thank you------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 08:47
Quit complaining and pass the smores.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 08:50
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Smores...another awful invented word. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 09:14
Who said music cannot contain complex arrangements? Is there some sort of rule that tells so? Prog is full of complex arrengements, who decides when it is unnecessary or not?
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 09:18
I wish I'd had the sense to get out before it was too late -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 09:21
There is nothing that puts people off Dream Theater more than Dream Theater fans.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 09:38
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Guys, isn't there a DT fan thread on ProgArchives somewhere you can go and take these 'dicussions'? It's rather gumming up a couple of other not-so-related threads (like the drumming one). -------------
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Posted By: Prog Snob
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 09:49
Then you should have posted this message in the drumming one and not one entitled Favorite DREAM THEATER Epic?
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: September 28 2012 at 10:27
Actually, my first impression of Dream Theater back when I first heard them (in the mid-90's) was that they were ripping off Rush and Metallica However, while it's obvious those were two key influences, I've since changed my view of them. I think it's safe to say that they were innovative, though I'm not sure I'd say they are anymore. They are obviously highly skilled, and when I'm in the mood for soulless shredding, they fit the bill nicely. Which isn't to imply that they are completely soulless as a band, as I don't think they are. The ballads mentioned are a good case in point, though I find even some of the more energetic and complex stuff has some feeling and soul to it.......with my favorite epics of theirs (remember the thread topic? ) being good examples of this.I guess for me, I'm not a big metal fan. But if I feel like hearing some metal, I usually pull out DT. |