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Queen vs Black Sabbath

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Forum Discription: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90111
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Topic: Queen vs Black Sabbath
Posted By: Icarium
Subject: Queen vs Black Sabbath
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 10:00
two pioneers heavy bands, who held wright and define the rules of metal, Sabbath more then any, but Queen helped expand the language and expression of heavy rock and metal, few bands can be said to be have as much high standards and few lows as Sabbath and Queen at their highs, with defining gutiars, rumbeling bass, distinct vocals be it Ozzy, Dio or Mercuy for Queens sake, two high class vocalists who changeed rock vocals for ever (Dio and Freddy, can't really say that about Ozzy though a distinct voice with character, not really a good voice but a characteristic voice), precise and pounding drumming with suffisaint techique,

so who is you favourite band of these two pioneers of heavy progressive rock music or heavy metal or theatrical heavy metal or something...


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Acting on your best behaviour
Turn your back on mother nature
Everybody wants to rule the world



Replies:
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 10:15
Voted Queen, but both are good. 

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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 10:31
Neither.

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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 10:54
I love both of them but Queen gets the prize.

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 11:33
No contest here. Queen were one of the first bands I truly loved. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.

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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 12:17
Voted "both".
Both are quite unique and equally influential.


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 13:07
Queen, easily

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Posted By: Gugliemo
Date Posted: October 14 2012 at 17:47
Queen, purely for Flash Gordon! :)


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 00:30
It's a strange pont, but Queen had a lot of influence on heavy metal, but critics very oftenly forget about it. At first, Queen were probably the first band ever who started to distinct blues from heavy rock (and when first Queen album had strong bluesy feeling in some tracks, you'll barely find any blues influences on second, apart from The Loser in the End). Thus, Queen predicted in some way NWOBHM.

In songs like Modern Times Rock'n'Roll, Ogre Battle, Brighton Rock, Stone Cold Crazy and Sheer Heart Attack Queen fastened their sound and de facto invented speed metal and thrash mental (after Metallica covered Stone Cold Crazy critics started to remember this fact, but not always though).

Queen's fantasy lyrics, lush melodies and vocal harmonies mixed with heavy sound became a predecessor of power metal.

And, finally, Queen's tendention to mix heavy sound with strong progressive influences became one of predecessors of prog metal.

Thus, Queen did major contribution in emergence of five metal genres: NWOBHM, speed metal, thrash metal, power metal and progressive metal.

My vote is for Queen :)

Though Black Sabbath were excellent too, and very influentive too. Love both, but vote for Queen.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 00:35
Black Sabbath, easily.

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Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 10:06
The Mighty Sabbath. Not even close.

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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 10:35

Very hard to compare, no vote.



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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 11:07
I like them both but definitely not the same.
 
Guess who I voted for Smile


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"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."


Posted By: Hamef Ahakim
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 11:21
The Guess Who I suppose


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 11:34
I was a Queen fanboy back in high school, but today there's very few albums I can still stand.  Well maybe "stand" is a strong word, but suffice to say I don't get nearly as much mileage out of them any more.  It's mostly Freddie Mercury that just gets on my nerves now.  Roger Taylor is still the man.

My interest in Black Sabbath is more limited (first 6 albums, and that's about all I care for), but I think they're more in line with my tastes today.  A really good Sabbath song is much more likely to get my blood pumping today than a really good Queen song. 

So with some hesitation, I vote Sabbath.


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Posted By: otto pankrock
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 14:09
Sabbath


Posted By: Josef_K
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 14:19
I own all 18 Black Sabbath albums on CD and 17 of them on vinyl (Forbidden was only printed in 1000 vinyl copies in 1995... haven't found one yet). 

So that kind of speaks for itself. From Queen I own their debut album on vinyl and nothing on CD haha :D They're an incredible band though, I love the debut and also lots of songs here and there from their later albums. But Sabbath was, in all it's incarnations, one of the best bands I've ever heard. Every single song from every single album is an inspiring, interesting piece of art. 


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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own

- Peter Hammill


Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 21:16
Sabbath......yet Freddie is by far the best vocalist ever

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Music - The Sound Librarian
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: October 15 2012 at 21:26
Originally posted by Josef_K

I own all 18 Black Sabbath albums on CD and 17 of them on vinyl (Forbidden was only printed in 1000 vinyl copies in 1995... haven't found one yet). 

So that kind of speaks for itself. From Queen I own their debut album on vinyl and nothing on CD haha :D They're an incredible band though, I love the debut and also lots of songs here and there from their later albums. But Sabbath was, in all it's incarnations, one of the best bands I've ever heard. Every single song from every single album is an inspiring, interesting piece of art. 

Even Changes and Fluff and all that stuff from Tyr?


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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: October 16 2012 at 05:23
It seems rather odd to compare two such dissimilar bands:
Queen's influence on metal was for me pretty short lived (début album, Stone Cold Crazy, Brighton Rock)
Sabbath's influence on metal was much more prescient and far reaching
Queen boasted one of the best and most eclectic songwriters in popular music of the last 50 years (Mercury)
Sabbath coined riffs that have become staples for an entire genre but wrote very few bona fide great songs that could survive being transferred outside the metal realm
I like them both but for entirely different reasons



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Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: October 17 2012 at 11:37
Not particularly a fan of either, but for me, the obvious choice is Queen. Much more imagination and talent (IMO).


Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: October 17 2012 at 17:47
Originally posted by thellama73

No contest here. Queen were one of the first bands I truly loved. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.
 
Everything is said here. Zeppelin and Purple were better than Sabbath.


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Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 10:58
My "favourite band" changes by the day, but both these are bands I always come back to. Love them both and voted accordingly.


Posted By: The T
Date Posted: October 18 2012 at 11:08
Originally posted by thellama73

No contest here. Queen were one of the first bands I truly loved. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.
Basically this. Also, one band had a singer with amazing musical and personal talents The other one had a singer with charisma. 

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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 04:27
Sabbath !!!  Can't stand Queen.


Posted By: JyDavise
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 08:56
For me  the best is Queen .


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 09:20
Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by thellama73

No contest here. Queen were one of the first bands I truly loved. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.
Basically this. Also, one band had a singer with amazing musical and personal talents The other one had a singer with charisma. 
i would say Dio is as accomplished as Murcary, Rodgers (hushhh) is better then Ozzy  Confused. but Ozzy is the better character and iconic which Rodgers is not,

also RIP Ronny and Freddy


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Acting on your best behaviour
Turn your back on mother nature
Everybody wants to rule the world


Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 09:34
Originally posted by Tom Ozric

Sabbath !!!  Can't stand Queen.


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Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 12:03
Originally posted by Tom Ozric

Sabbath !!!  Can't stand Queen.

Have you listened to Queen II, Sheer Heart Attack, or you're judging on Greatest Hits or that kind of crap?


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 12:09
Big fan of both bands.  I am currently entrenched in a Queen marathon.  "There can be only one", but I choose both.

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Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 13:16
I dig em both but Sabbath are just way more significant to me, probably cause of all the years I spent as a super metalhead


Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 23:09
Originally posted by ole-the-first

Originally posted by Tom Ozric

Sabbath !!!  Can't stand Queen.

Have you listened to Queen II, Sheer Heart Attack, or you're judging on Greatest Hits or that kind of crap?
O.K.  O.K. - You kinda caught me out a bit here. If I may say, my sister and, particularly her ex. are MASSIVE Queen fans to this day.  I've heard pretty much all their albums.  I liked some things on their debut (Great King Rat, Liar, My Fairy King) and the next tune I liked was Dragon Attack (from The Game - Deacon's bass-line is bleedin' killer).  Then I liked the title cut of 'Innuendo'.  Heard a gazillion times Day at the Races, Night at the Opera (nothing exciting there) and whilst I suppose I could consider Queen II and SHA tolerable, one thing just irks me to the very core - those bleedin' massed vocals - I prefer STYX doing this.  Yes, Freddy was/is an amazing vocalist, but some of their more 'commercial' things that have been played to death just kill this whole entity known as 'Queen' for me.  To say 'I can't stand 'em' maybe a bit brash, but there's tons of fairly average Prog I'd consider before devoting time to this band.  Apologies, I don't mean to offend.............


Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 16:03
Originally posted by thellama73

No contest here. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.

This.




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Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 16:08
Originally posted by ole-the-first

Originally posted by Tom Ozric

Sabbath !!!  Can't stand Queen.

Have you listened to Queen II, Sheer Heart Attack, or you're judging on Greatest Hits or that kind of crap?

This. Although he said he listened to those albums, a lot of people think Queen is "Radio Gaga" and "I Want to Break Free" and never listened to those albums or songs like "Prohet Song", "Millonaire Waltz" and "Great King Rat", etc.


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Posted By: menawati
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 17:57
Dusted off my old Queen at the Beeb LP last night and it blew me away.
Voted Queen (but like sabbath too)

Oh yeh and side 1 of Sheer Heart Attack is much better than anything Sabbath ever did.


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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.


Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague

Originally posted by thellama73

No contest here. Black Sabbath were great and genre defining, but their music was not as varied, interesting or well-played as Queen's.

This.


Really?

Interesting and varied? I think from Black Sabbath up to Heaven & Hell you got a lot of material that varies and can be very interesting. Sure, they're not the best players around, while Freddie might be one of rock's finest vocals, I prefer Ozzy's unique vocals that gave rock a whole new side.

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and Sabotage, those two are very interesting hard rock albums with orchestral and synth arrangements. 

I admit that I haven't listened as much Queen as Sabbath, mainly cause Queen didnt have the punch Sabbath had with Geezer and Iommi.Wink


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http://www.last.fm/user/GordonComstock" rel="nofollow - "For me, music and life are all about style.” Miles Davis(last.fm)


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 19:08
Well, I'm a big fan of both, but... Sabbath's music is indeed much less varied than Queen's. Sabbath were moving towards metal but they always have stayed a metal act. Then Queen moved through heavy metal, hard rock, pop rock, dance (oftenly on the same album), and everything, even their poppiest albums, contained some experiments.

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This night wounds time.


Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 21:26
Yeah youre probably right, Queen, in that sense, is more of a rock band that inclined towards various sides and didnt focus much on one style, except for some albums. (not a criticism)

Sabbath were from the beginning heavy and doomish, with blues roots that began to fade with time. They did have their experimental and pop phase, but always within the hard rock realm.


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http://www.last.fm/user/GordonComstock" rel="nofollow - "For me, music and life are all about style.” Miles Davis(last.fm)


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 22:12
My interest in Queen literally died on the vine after A Night at the Opera. Their first four albums were great and hard edged, but they took a u-turn after that and I never followed them again. Sabbath has far more material I still listen to.

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Posted By: menawati
Date Posted: November 10 2012 at 19:00
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

My interest in Queen literally died on the vine after A Night at the Opera.

Same here. Day at the Races isn't too awful though.


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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.


Posted By: Meta
Date Posted: November 25 2012 at 07:56
This poll took me a little longer than most to answer, but I ended up choosing Queen. Two of the greatest rock performers ever in Mercury and May, and they continually evolved, developed their sound, and were just more eclectic than Sabbath. Love me some Sabbath though, and the metal fan in me really wanted to pick them.

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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 25 2012 at 09:16
I was a huge Queen fan and I have most of their albums except for a couple of the later ones, while I have only a few Sabbath albums so I acknowledge that I'm voting without being familiar with much of the Sabbath output.
 
Although much of Queen's later period sucks, the greatness of most of their material up to Live Killers makes it for me a no-brainer, Queen.


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 25 2012 at 23:47


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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 26 2012 at 03:13
Originally posted by Tapfret

Clap


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: November 26 2012 at 04:26
agreed. I like Syd Barrett's Apples And Oranges much more than Queen or Sabbath! :P

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Posted By: Josef_K
Date Posted: January 11 2013 at 08:43
Originally posted by Alitare


Even Changes and Fluff and all that stuff from Tyr?
 
Changes is a very beautiful ballad with great lyrics, I love the piano riff. Some people complain that it's simple, well so is "Paranoid"...
 
Fluff is pure gold for someone who loves a symphonic atmosphere as much as I do. In fact, I can't really imagine someone liking Topographic Oceans and not Fluff.
 
TYR is a great album with some of Cozy's best drumming ever (yes I know, Rising was better...). Sure, the drums are mixed quite high and it's most certainly not prog in any way (not that the other two are I guess) but it's some of the best power-metal-ish stuff out there imo. Tony Martins vocals and lyrics are in their prime and Iommi's riffs are devastating as always. The production really fits the theme of the album. I've always been disappointed that Dio and Iommi ruined the TYR and Lock Up the Wolves line ups to create "Dehumanizer", even though that's a great album as well. The only song off TYR which is clearly weaker is the pop ballad "Feels Good to Me", which is weaker mostly because it simply doesn't fit in with the other stuff.
 
Funny you didn't ask about the rap-part in Illusion of Power ^^ Maybe you haven't heard that song. The rap part is not good, but it doesn't drag the song down that much, as a whole it's still awesome.


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Leave the past to burn,
At least that's been his own

- Peter Hammill


Posted By: Kirillov
Date Posted: January 14 2013 at 09:29
I voted for 'the Sabs' as the are sometimes known. 


Posted By: Pelata
Date Posted: January 14 2013 at 11:14
I love Queen. But I picked Black Sabbath because Metal is the first kind of music I was really into and Black Sabbath invented it. From the debut through the RJD era, Sabbath was an entity unto themselves.

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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 14 2013 at 22:39
Sabbath again, there are my heart and soul though Queen is good

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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



Posted By: N-sz
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 23:37
I agree with that apple and the orange up there. Had to say 'both'. Even considering that they're different, I really don't think I prefer one over the other even a little bit.

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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 13:39
What does proto-prog stand for? Yes I am a nincompoop I know, sorry. Ermm My vote goes to Queen inc. Fat bottomed girls (they are hot Big smile), except for that annoying track and tune "I want to ride my bicycle" arghhhhhh.... now it's got into my head again, arghhh!!!! Pinch

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Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 13:45
Bicycle Race is not quite annoying, it's just some kind of self-parody in a kind of Monty Python-esque style.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 13:51
Originally posted by ole-the-first

Bicycle Race is not quite annoying, it's just some kind of self-parody in a kind of Monty Python-esque style.
 
Ole-the-first, I beg to differ because I still have "I want to ride my bicycle...... I want to ride my bicycle.... I want to ride my bike" tune in my head again argghhhhhhhhhh help!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't stop!!! Unhappy


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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 14:02
Originally posted by Kati

What does proto-prog stand for? Yes I am a nincompoop I know, sorry


Well proto is a prefix that means first, when people write proto-something it usually means the first of it's kind or with things like proto-prog or proto-metal the kind of precursor, how the psychedelic rock of the late 60's was often proto-prog or bands like Deep Purple and Blue Cheer being a precursor to heavy metal


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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 14:19
Originally posted by Sumdeus

Originally posted by Kati

What does proto-prog stand for? Yes I am a nincompoop I know, sorry


Well proto is a prefix that means first, when people write proto-something it usually means the first of it's kind or with things like proto-prog or proto-metal the kind of precursor, how the psychedelic rock of the late 60's was often proto-prog or bands like Deep Purple and Blue Cheer being a precursor to heavy metal
 
Thank you very much, Psychedelic Teddy Bear Big smile
First, thus it means ground breaking Wink, besides bohemian rhapsody, Queen made a drum tune into a clapping tune sound as in tum tum ta tum tum ta ..... tum tum ta tum tum ta  (we will, we will rock you), yet I do not understand the proto here or before? Smile  


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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 14:57
Queen were not proto; they did five prog albums then turned into pop, so they're counting here as 'prog-related', same with Sabbath (though did only one prog album, 'Sabotage').

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This night wounds time.


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 22:00
[TUBE]SYPKikLQljA[/TUBE]
Originally posted by ole-the-first

Queen were not proto; they did five prog albums then turned into pop, so they're counting here as 'prog-related', same with Sabbath (though did only one prog album, 'Sabotage').


OLE-THE FIRST! Smile
I do like Queen, Freddie's vocals are one of the very few that I like Smile however this track once it gets into your head it stays there arghhhh!!!!! I do not want to suffer alone thus here you go, we must share this torture besides it's your fault Big smile at least I looked up the original video from Fat Bottomed Gils for you Embarrassed


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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 22:07
Oooh so difficult; clearly Queen mastered the studio way beyond anything Sabbath would do, but for consistency the Sabs probably win.   No vote ('Both' is too namby pamby.)







Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 22:20
Originally posted by Atavachron

Oooh so difficult; clearly Queen mastered the studio way beyond anything Sabbath would do, but for consistency the Sabs probably win.   No vote ('Both' is too namby pamby.)





namby pamby LOL


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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 19:05

Since the question is about the favorite band, not "which band did more for their genre at its early stages", it's kind of easy to decide in this one: Queen. 

I don't know Black Sabbath well enough to competently review their career path, but my impression is that they are kind of like the Rolling Stones of heavy metal: stayed around for decades without ever drifting away from the '60's blues-based rock. Heavy metal doesn't do anything for me, unless it's explicitly symphy and free from inappropriate growling and musical instrument abuse.      

Ozzie sure has a distinctive voice, along with an interesting personality, but frankly he can't be described as a uniquely talented vocalist. Freddy was one of a kind. 

Queen also - in their productive period - showed some jaw-dropping musicianship, exquisite taste and quite a gusto for innovation. I don't believe that Black Sabbath ever were interested in any of these.


 




 



 

 



Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 19:35
Hug
Originally posted by Argonaught

Since the question is about the favorite band, not "which band did more for their genre at its early stages", it's kind of easy to decide in this one: Queen. 

I don't know Black Sabbath well enough to competently review their career path, but my impression is that they are kind of like the Rolling Stones of heavy metal: stayed around for decades without ever drifting away from the '60's blues-based rock. Heavy metal doesn't do anything for me, unless it's explicitly symphy and free from inappropriate growling and musical instrument abuse.      

Ozzie sure has a distinctive voice, along with an interesting personality, but frankly he can't be described as a uniquely talented vocalist. Freddy was one of a kind. 

Queen also - in their productive period - showed some jaw-dropping musicianship, exquisite taste and quite a gusto for innovation. I don't believe that Black Sabbath ever were interested in any of these.


I absolutely have to agree with you, Argonaught SmileHandshake

There are only a few vocalists that I like and Freddie's vocals were instrumental, among others, the vocalists I like are David Byron plus Daniel Gildenlow Approve
hig  

 

 




 



 

 



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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 20:37
I don't care for either really. 
I guess i never really "got" them.


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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 21:28
Originally posted by Horizons

I don't care for either really. 
I guess i never really "got" them.
 
I insist on converting you into liking Queen, Horizons Wink mhwoaahhxxx HugTongue
I usually am not phased by vocals but Freddie's were incredible, this is a cutchy cutchy soggy sniffy awww fave one of mine Big smile
.... I am just the pieces of the man I used to be...... too many bitter tears are raining down on me.... I am far away from home and facing this for too long.... awwwwww Heart[TUBE]Y1nanAIoEZQ[/TUBE]


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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 21:37
[TUBE]-IrZXm8wxfM[/TUBE] INCREDIBLE VOCALS Approve
Not a fav track of mine tho' Disapprove at least it's better than I WANT TO RIDE MY BICYCLE Confused

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When playing strip poker, make sure you are wearing a lot of clothes! or google will ban you ;)


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 22:27
Originally posted by Kati

Originally posted by Sumdeus

Originally posted by Kati

What does proto-prog stand for? Yes I am a nincompoop I know, sorry


Well proto is a prefix that means first, when people write proto-something it usually means the first of it's kind or with things like proto-prog or proto-metal the kind of precursor, how the psychedelic rock of the late 60's was often proto-prog or bands like Deep Purple and Blue Cheer being a precursor to heavy metal
 
Thank you very much, Psychedelic Teddy Bear Big smile
First, thus it means ground breaking  
Although strictly speaking the translation from greek is indeed "first", the term is more used to signify "precursor to", "ancestor", something which is still in the making, not yet fully formed, such as in prototype, in the term protogalaxy which astronomers use to refer to gas clouds which are still aggregating and will eventually form a galaxy in the future, or in protohuman which is sometimes used to refer to species ancestors to homo sapiens.

So it's not so much "the first" nor "groundbreaking" but "what would eventually become the first but was not yet".
So Proto-Prog = music from the 60's which was not yet proper Prog but paved the way towards Prog.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 03:25
Originally posted by Argonaught

Ozzie sure has a distinctive voice, along with an interesting personality, but frankly he can't be described as a uniquely talented vocalist. Freddy was one of a kind. 


Hey, they also had Ronnie James Dio, one of the most amazing, powerful voices in rock.   Dio never had nodules as far as I know either and kept the metal flag flying high until cancer took him away.  Cry


Also, I don't remember either growling or instrument abuse in Black Sabbath's music.   Their base was bluesy rock, just like DP or LZ but there was also an element of theater in their music, especially in Sabotage.   Taste is, well, a matter of taste and as for innovation...er, Queen dipped quite heavily in Sparks' box of chocolates so they are about as innovative as each other imo.   And as for musicianship,  you have probably never heard Sabbath's live improvisations.    I love Queen up to News of the World so this is not about Queen v/s Sabbath; hate having to compare favourites.  But it doesn't seem to me as if you have given one of the great rock bands of all time a fair shot.  



Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 04:31
Originally posted by Argonaugh

Queen also - in their productive period - showed some jaw-dropping musicianship, exquisite taste and quite a gusto for innovation. I don't believe that Black Sabbath ever were interested in any of these.



Sabbath didn't innovate and didn't have great musicianship? give me a break. it would seem you are right in that you don't know Sabbath well enough. I realize you said you don't like heavy metal much but it's silly to ignore the significance Sabbath holds to the genre, along with creating foundations for multiple other styles of metal


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Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:08
So Queen were fundational in many other subgenres of metal. I'd say that Queen were next metal band after Sabbath by the strength of their impact on heavy music.

Though Queen's influence is oftenly getting underrated, BUT it were Queen who played heavy metal without blues influence for the first time, being precursors to NWOBHM. And it were Queen who made first ever thrash metal and speed metal songs. They highly influenced on power metal subgenre as well and predicted the appearance of progressive metal on their first demo in 1971 (at that time only King Crimson and Uriah Heep were that close to prog metal, btw – maybe also High Tide, but they were too psychedelic and folky). And that's the matter of fact.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:15
are you seriously comparing Queen's impact on metal to Sabbath's? I'm at a loss for words. Queen have had some metal elements at times but their importance to metal is minimal compared to what Sabbath did.


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Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:19
And there was very big cross-influence cetween Queen and Sabbath :)

Queen's debut LP had more Sabbath influence than Zep or anything else. Those wah-wah guitars in 'Great King Rat', for example, are really influenced by 'Electric Funeral'. Queen's live version of 'Son and Daughter' was almost a replica from Sabbath's version of 'Warning', they both had exactly the same structure 'song-long guitar solo-reprise'. it's a shame that this long solo was edited out of album version of 'Son and Daughter', though later it appeared in 'Brighton Rock'.

On the other hand, Sabbath's 'Sabotage' was, vice versa, very Queen-influenced. Main riff in 'Symptom of the Universe' was almost ripped off from Queen's 'Stone Cold Crazy', and the whole method of songwriting in Black Sabbath has really changed: at that time Iommi became a Queen fan and decided to spend more time in a studio, making more complex and sophisticated things.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:24
Originally posted by Sumdeus

are you seriously comparing Queen's impact on metal to Sabbath's? I'm at a loss for words. Queen have had some metal elements at times but their importance to metal is minimal compared to what Sabbath did.

Yup, I do.

Heavy metal was formed in late 60's in works by The Yardbirds/Led Zeppelin and King Crimson. So Sabbath didn't created a new genre, they just gave it a shape. And that was their merit.

And Queen were ground-breaking in creating and influencing on new metal genres. As I specified, it were NWOBHM, speed metal, thrash  metal, power metal and progressive metal. Dixi.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:41
I agree with Sumdeus,  Sabbath was far more influential to metal music.   The thing is, Queen did a lot of things that were incorporated by rock bands, metal or otherwise.   But they were rarely out and out metal themselves.   I can hear where the riffs of Stone Cold Crazy would fit in a metal song but the song itself doesn't feel particularly like metal....maybe it's a bit too stop-start for that (while thrash/speed metal tends to be unrelenting and steady).  I don't think the Symptom riff is a rip off of Stone Cold Crazy but be that as it may, the former possess a rage and anger that is a fundamental characteristic of metal and is not found in Stone Cold or most Queen songs, with exceptions like Death on two legs (which still leans towards dark humour rather than all out anger).   After Sabbath, the next band that was distinctly metal at all times and did a whole lot in influencing its direction was Judas Priest who are of course recognized as such in metal forums but are strangely disdained this aspect in other forums like PA.   


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 05:47
Contradictory arguments here:


Originally posted by ole-the-first


Yup, I do.

Heavy metal was formed in late 60's in works by The Yardbirds/Led Zeppelin and King Crimson. So Sabbath didn't created a new genre, they just gave it a shape. And that was their merit. 


Of those bands, KC was the only one who wrote precisely one song that could be characrerized as metal before Sabbath and that is of course Schizoid.   Dazed and Confused may be heavy but it is not any more metal than In the Flesh.   Sabbath were not the first to come up with all the elements that make up metal - and no one band ever is - but they were the first metal band.  

Originally posted by ole-the-first


And Queen were ground-breaking in creating and influencing on new metal genres. As I specified, it were NWOBHM, speed metal, thrash  metal, power metal and progressive metal. Dixi.


You'd surely have to acknowledge that Into the Void is not dispensable in the emergence of speed metal.   Likewise, In Rock is a very important  album for the development of speed metal.   Queen weren't in the picture at this point.  Thanks to Sabbath and DP, metal was a full fledged genre even before Queen had released their first album.   While Queen could write songs with elements of non-blues music with metal riffs, their approach was not immediately embraced in the 80s.    It was, again, JP who showed the way first and Iron Maiden and the rest of NWOBHM built on it.   Queen is an influence, no doubt, but a secondary one compared to Sabbath, DP, JP or even Scorpions or Van Halen (Roth and Michael Schenker hugely influenced metal lead guitar, need say nothing of Van Halen). 


Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 06:06
Well, there's a lot of points, but Queen came to speed metal much closer than anybody before. I am not arguing on Sabbath influence and I agree that they were first metal band, as I said, Sabbath gave a shape for metal.

Thn Queen influence was very notable, and it's very oftenly dismissed. 'Stone Cold Crazy', 'Ogre Battle' and 'Modern Times Rock'n'Roll' were faster, louder and heavier than anything before, and Purple are really losing their contest in heaviness in comparison to single 'Ogre Battle'.

There was really a lot of influences on heavy metal from many bands. My point was that Queen influence was much bigger than it's usually presented. Anyway, Metallica did they Queen cover much earlier before they covered Sabbath.


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This night wounds time.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 07:13
I don't think the influence of songs like Ogre Battle or Stone Cold Crazy have ever been denied or dismissed in metal, but you are not going to find many takers for the theory that that influence amounts to something similar to Sabbath's influence on metal.    It is also irrelevant if Metallica covered Queen before Sabbath as that is just a happenstance.  The influence of Sabbath on their music is evident and it is evident in Slayer as well and even more so as we go to darker genres like death metal.   The essential sound of Queen is not very representative of metal and their influence on metal derives mainly from May's guitarwork and also (but more specifically in the case of power metal) their vocal harmonies.  


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 14:11
again, while Queen may have had some influence on metal their overall role in the genre is insignificant compared to actual metal bands... I'm still at a loss for words that someone would try to compare their influence to someone like Sabbath. you keep listing these genres, but Queen didn't create NWOBHM, nor speed metal, nor thrash, nor power, nor prog metal. They weren't even near the main foundation of those genres. Sabbath, on the other hand, pretty much were the first to play metal in the way they did which marked the line between hard rock and heavy metal, and also pretty much singlehandedly created other metal subgenres such as stoner metal and doom metal.


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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: January 20 2013 at 16:15
Originally posted by Sumdeus

again, while Queen may have had some influence on metal their overall role in the genre is insignificant compared to actual metal bands... I'm still at a loss for words that someone would try to compare their influence to someone like Sabbath. you keep listing these genres, but Queen didn't create NWOBHM, nor speed metal, nor thrash, nor power, nor prog metal. They weren't even near the main foundation of those genres. Sabbath, on the other hand, pretty much were the first to play metal in the way they did which marked the line between hard rock and heavy metal, and also pretty much singlehandedly created other metal subgenres such as stoner metal and doom metal.


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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



Posted By: Jonathan
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 14:23
I pick Queen. I love both Bands though.


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 14:36
I love both bands, but Queen has to take this one.  They were just incredible and Freddie is imo the best vocalist ever.  Although, surprisingly, that video that was posted above for Too Much Love Will Kill You, I actually prefer the Brian May solo version with May singing the lead.  But then I didn't think Brian or Roger were slouches behind the mic either. 

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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 05 2013 at 20:44
I had trouble with this one. Iron man is dynamite with a laser beam. I voted for both.


Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: February 07 2013 at 03:24
This is easy for me - I don't like either of them much, but Queen seem far more inventive and melodic to me.


Posted By: MonsterMagnet
Date Posted: March 01 2013 at 07:11
Queen


Posted By: Libor10
Date Posted: April 05 2013 at 12:03
Hmmm, Queen for me although I love Sabbath too and started with music listening long time ago with both bands together (along with many others).

Concerns metal influences etc. it's clear Sabbath is the main influence for later metal bands. Queen was never hard rock or heavy metal band per se (although their first three records could easily be boxed in "hard rock" shelf). On the other side Queen truly had some songs with metal base. The Stone Cold Crazy is well known example (maybe for the Metallica cover later), but Ogre Battle is IMHO even better example (although less known) of speed metal song in times nobody knows such term.

But even for me it's hard to say  Queen is big metal influence for later bands. Queen itself was influenced by many musical genres and they in return influenced a lot of bands counting in it metal ones (May's guitar playing could have impact on many hard rock and metal guitarists though).

Btw. Brian May and Tony Iommi are good friends and I remember I saw them together in studio chatting and then playing some Shadows' song they both liked (Apache maybe?? I don't remeber exactly) - it was probably during Smoke On The Water song re-recording (Rock Aid Armenia in '88) and it was great fun seeing and listening them :-)


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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: April 05 2013 at 12:24
Though I recognize the value, creativity and inventiveness of Queen, Black Sabbath resonates more with me.
 


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"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio


Posted By: charles_ryder
Date Posted: April 30 2014 at 05:51
I vote for Black Sabbath because they were more fundamental band for all rock music.

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Om mani padme hum


Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: May 01 2014 at 22:08
Black Sabbath without even giving it much thought.

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"Nobody's Gonna Change My World That's Something To Unreal"    Profound lyrics that i live my life by-from Black Sabbath's Technical Ecstasy's track You Won't Change Me


Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: June 07 2014 at 07:21
hend to move towards Queen for this case, but i like both bands indeed!

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Michael678



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