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Prog does not groove?

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Topic: Prog does not groove?
Posted By: Neelus
Subject: Prog does not groove?
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 07:07
Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 
I tried to explain to him that complex rhythms has the ability to groove fantastically, it all depends where you place the accents.  He basically closed the argument by saying that most people like to groove, and few like prog, so let the evidence speak for itself.  We ended up chatting about the Allman Brothers, a band we both like, and agreed to disagree on the previous subject.  I dont know, does prog rock not groove?



Replies:
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:02
Depends.  I guess somebody from the 'outside looking in' like a blues rock fan is going to observe some general trends and not specific examples.  I think in the 70s, it was mainly GG and JT that grooved - and being that GG loved funk and JT loved the blues, that's a no brainer.   The rest wrote some groovy stuff once in a while but not most of the time.  KC really began to groove only once they got Belew on board (though I don't know if the change was because of him or because Fripp changed his approach).  I wouldn't say Yes or Genesis groove a whole lot (glad if they do for some other listeners), similar thoughts on ELP.   Rush can groove but Rush can do some out and out hard rock so that's not surprising. 

But there must be tons of groovy fusion stuff and maybe your friend would enjoy that more if he wasn't already aware of it.


Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:08
I absolutely hate the "no soul" label that sometimes gets put to anything with time sig changes and weird chords, or just anything the listener is not used to... Really f**kin' gets on my nerves. Not liking a certain type of music is fine, but saying said type of music has no soul is an insult, not to mention an unprovable accusation. 

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:10
^^^  And yeah, I forgot to mention that part in my comment.   Folk music doesn't really groove in the blues rock sense of the word either, but you are not telling me it doesn't have soul because it doesn't have groove.  At its best, it is, IMO again, more soulful than blues rock.  


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:17
It's just a lazy way of dismissing something you don't like.  Instead of admitting your own shortcoming ("I wasn't able to get it"), you blame it on the music ("The music failed to interest me").  In a tiny way, it's a rhetorical device aimed at saving face.  Not that everybody has to "get it", but saying that it's the music's fault implies that everyone who does "get it" is being "suckered" in some way, which is the insulting part.

edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.


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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 09:30
By his argument Beethoven and Wagner and the rst have no soul either. Patently absurd. No...the reason more people are into blues is that it demands less from the listener.


Prog does groove.  It grooves on more levels.


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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:16
Originally posted by HolyMoly

Edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.
Sure you did! ... and I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

Neelus, rogerthat mentioned that JT could groove and had a leaning towards the blues. It seems like that friend of yours haven't heard JT's Aqualung. Now your friend tells you that it does not groove at all, and he tells you that it has no soul. I do not deeply love that record, but one of the reasons why I do love it is because it has a soul. Ergo, it seems that your pal must have heard only a few tracks from the prog realm ... and if he did, ... [sighing]. GG's "Proclamation" ! ... Damn, that thing can groove!


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:29
I was just about to talk Steve out of his pants on accord of him hitting the point, but our dear American Russian (or is that the other way round?;-) ninja'd me.

Berlin school electronic doesn't groove - neither does ambient, yet both of them can be incredibly beautiful.
Still, saying prog hasn't got groove is just about the biggest nonsense. SBB, Can, Amon Duul ll, Mwandishi Band, Miles, Magma, Caravan, Audience, Secret Oyster, Zao, Nil, COS, Moving Gelatine Plates, Arthur Browns Kingdom Come, Gong and on and on and on and.................. Practically most of the Canterbury, Fusion, Zeuhl as well as a good portion of the Krautrock acts all groove like gravy.

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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:40
Prog definitely GROOVES!! It grooves with vigor and conviction.

For an Ambient groove rock CHROMA KEY offers a great sound with in the groove sound of things

Dead Can Dance have a groove element as well. Oh and JETHRO TULL's AQUALUNG is a grooving masterpiece that even combines some elements of JAZZ. All in all, prog grooves.

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 10:56
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

I was just about to talk Steve out of his pants on accord of him hitting the point, but our dear American Russian (or is that the other way round?;-) ninja'd me.

A Russian in America. Big smile

Oh, s$%t ... Jazz Rock/Fusion! How could I forget about it in the first place?! What do you think we have it for, $%^&ing off? Soft Machine and MO! Now you tell me their music is not soulful and groovy. I also forgot to append to my argument that groove and soul do not always go hand in hand ... but after reading the posts above I figured that has already been done. I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty. Perchance it's the polar opposite of a groove.


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Zargasheth
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:19
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

GG's "Proclamation" ! ... Damn, that thing can groove!


That's exactly what I thought of when I saw the title of this thread!


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When it comes to music, very little is objective.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:26
Rings another bell in my head - Holger Czukay's Movies. Check it out and tell me it has no soul and no grooves. One of the most progressive things Czukay has done thus far, I say.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:28
Of course you can find a lot of nice grooves in prog. Grooviness is one of the quailties I value the most (I'm a drummer by the way).
 
But if someone says a prog tune doesn't groove, there may be many reasons. Prog has a lot of variation and may be disuptive. Other genres stick to one groove from beginning to end, while prog may introduce one part and suddenly change character completely. That can be a good or bad depending on which song and which person you ask. For example, in my opinion "Interior Lulu" by Marillion is great up until the point were it goes crazy, starting with a drum fill and continuing in a totally different tempo and feeling, and a crazy synth solo. I think it was a bit too disruptive in relation to the original laid-back almost bossanova feeling. Other times I really welcome changes in character. For example, "Ice Nice" by Saga has a moog (or rhodes maybe) groove in a soft jazzy rhythm feeling but no drums. In the middle of the song it changes to a different tempo, different groove and drums come in, 8 bars, and then - moog solo. The song is groovy all the way, but in two different ways, and not without colorful harmonies and atmospgheres. Saga is one of my favourite bands because groove is a big part of what they are about. But it's not everything.
 
Funk for example, is solely about groove. But music can be more, it can be everything, and that's what prog is - everything.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:39
Originally posted by Neelus

Spoke to a blues rock fanatic yesterday, and he told me the reason prog rock is not widely loved is the fact that it does not groove, and therefore has no soul. 
...
 
WOW ... another religious expert!
 
Such a progressive thought ... WOW ... I'm stunned!
 
Cool
 
Clap


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:42
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Rings another bell in my head - Holger Czukay's Movies. Check it out and tell me it has no soul and no grooves. One of the most progressive things Czukay has done thus far, I say.
 
Both this album and "On The Way To The Peak Of The Normal" are fabulous and way out there ... but this is too far out and out there for most listeners, and on top of it Holger himself did not like the results and told me so in an email sequence, which I thought was really sad ... both albums were fabulous, as was Can's "Landed" which had a lot of him going crazy with tapes and what not ... with effects and weirdness all over the place. But he got lazy after that and went on to do some drone music ... such a waste of a talented "painter" of the landscape of a mind replaced by simplistic stuff that is more "new age" than it is ... musically inclined ... for MY tastes and preferences. I just don't think his later stuff even merits the word "progressive" and fits more in the "I don't care" area of creativity than it does anything else.
 
Sad waste of talent, if you ask me ... as a mystic used to say ... potential is crap!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:48
What about Tangerine Dream? Think they have a huge groove to their sound, especially their 80's work

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 11:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by HolyMoly

Edit: I didn't quite hit the point I was going for, but maybe I'll try again later.
Sure you did! ... and I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

Well, thanks.  I was distracted as I was writing and after posting it realized it wasn't as well put as would have liked.  I didn't really address "groove" so much as just the general dislike of prog music by most people.  Made me sound like a cranky old man, and didn't really address the topic.  But I'm glad you got the gist.  David too.  Sometimes when we say things and don't really express them well, people take it the wrong way. 

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Posted By: wilmon91
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 12:26
One reason that prog may lack soulfulness is the tendency that the musicians are so content with their abilities as instrumentalists that the singing becomes compromised. Bad or unexpressive singing can ruin any music regardless of how good it is otherwise. But good singers aren't common in any genre. The typical blues singer bores me to death. And that goes for most blues bands.


Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 12:47
I had a quick listen to Proclamation by GG on Youtube (what a groove Smile), and the following 2 comments there made me smile, considering the reason I listened to the song is based on this thread...
This comment was by "jak dracula":
"This is one of the worst things I've ever heard. He's singing out of key, and there's no groove, nothing of merit what-so-ever, it's like a group of people taking turns doing finger exercises. "
And this was a response to that comment by "ArrestedDecayBand" (wonder if this is a PA member):
"1: You don't understand anything outside of the scales in more standard music. 2: Music doesn't have to be simple. It can be simple, and that's good and well, but I'd be sad if nobody made fun, complex music like this in the world. 3: Shifting time signatures and meters does not mean there is no groove. Not to mention a song does not need a groove to be good, not all music has to be something you can dance to."
I would like to mention that the above response received the most thumbs up LOL


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 13:34
Originally posted by Neelus

This comment was by "jak dracula": 

"This is one of the worst things I've ever heard. He's singing out of key, and there's no groove, nothing of merit what-so-ever, it's like a group of people taking turns doing finger exercises."

LOL I'm sorry; I just bursted. Big smile S%^t like this makes me laugh. LOL


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: theadolescentprogger
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 14:02
It grooves, it just grooves... differently.


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 14:22
Of course Prog can groove, but this does not mean that all Prog does groove.  And the idea of it being too complex to groove is ridiculous.  There is plenty of music from Africa that is rythmically extremely complex, yet it grooves like nothing else.  I listen to a lot of Blues myself, and I can say that not all of it grooves either, and that there are several different ways it can groove.  I have always had difficulty with what a lot of people call 'soul.'  Many of the current top 40 tunes are described as soul, but it sounds so canned and artificial to me I can not even justify calling it by that title.  My suggestion: anytime someone criticizes something for lacking soul, ask them what they mean by soul.  If they can't express it, they don't know what it is.  Play Socrates (but don't get them too mad at you).

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 15:19
Everything I don't like is grooveless, soulless and pretentious.

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Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 15:37
How about George Clinton's Funkadelic? Plenty of groove there - massive stage show, concept albums a plenty, multi-part songs etc..... George is a hero of the little known Funk/Prog genre.
 
Wink
 


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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 15:48
Just like prog lyrics rarely have anything to do with Tolkien or D&D, it's a misconception that prog doesn't groove. Fragile by Yes for example is extremely groove-driven, and so is a lot of stuff by Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant, as mentioned before in this thread. I guess the misconception arises because people equate prog with ultra-symphonic, keyboard-driven stuff like Genesis (a band that too could groove, but their albums are usually mixed in a way that de-emphasizes that fact). Prog is way too diverse a genre to make any generalization like that.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 15:52
Originally posted by Lord Jagged

How about George Clinton's Funkadelic? Plenty of groove there - massive stage show, concept albums a plenty, multi-part songs etc..... George is a hero of the little known Funk/Prog genre.
 
Wink
 

Why is he not on PA then?


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:00
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Lord Jagged

How about George Clinton's Funkadelic? Plenty of groove there - massive stage show, concept albums a plenty, multi-part songs etc..... George is a hero of the little known Funk/Prog genre.
 
Wink
 

Why is he not on PA then?
 
That'll be because I was joking. Hence the winking emoticon.
 
Prog may groove to a certain extent, but no one is going to confuse Yes with James Brown.
 
"Up, get on up to your wonderous stories..."


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Dead Souls In The Rear View Mirror Hitch A Ride For A While..


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:07
Prog doesn't groove, that's why we like it and why it's fanbase is mostly beard-stroking academics and lonely geeks uninterested in the repetitive drone of soul-based music.   It embraces the cerebral and ambitious.  Nothing wrong with that.



Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:18
Originally posted by Atavachron

Prog doesn't groove, that's why we like it and why it's fanbase is mostly beard-stroking academics and lonely geeks uninterested in the repetitive drone of soul-based music.  
 
Clearly including the female prog fan there I see.
 
"Lonely geeks" is slightly worrying. An image of spotty shut in computer gamers performing acts of onanism under a Roger Dean poster is beginning to form.
 
I'd best go and listen to some James Brown - "Papa's got a brand new mellotron" the 12" disco mix I think.


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Dead Souls In The Rear View Mirror Hitch A Ride For A While..


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:19
LOL


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:30
Something I read long ago on the cover of Soft Machine's 2nd album comes to mind here - "There is music for the body, and music for the mind. Soft Machine makes music for the mind." or something like that. Its a mental groove they're after. I feel it. Are you feelin it? I'm feelin it. What? Yes of course.

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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:34
Originally posted by Lord Jagged

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Lord Jagged

How about George Clinton's Funkadelic? Plenty of groove there - massive stage show, concept albums a plenty, multi-part songs etc..... George is a hero of the little known Funk/Prog genre.
 
Wink
 

Why is he not on PA then?
 
That'll be because I was joking. Hence the winking emoticon.
 
And I so bought that. LOL I was just too lazy to check on what you've said.



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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 16:40
Bootsy Collins for Eclectic!

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It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
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Posted By: Josh18293
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 17:33
Rush-
  • Digital Man
  • By-Tor and the Snow Dog
  • Losing It
Bruford-
  • Joe Frazier
  • QED
Pink Floyd-
  • the ever overplayed Money


Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by Josh18293

Rush-
  • Digital Man
  • By-Tor and the Snow Dog
  • Losing It
Bruford-
  • Joe Frazier
  • QED
Pink Floyd-
  • the ever overplayed Money


Money? A song in 7/4 is hardly going to pack a dance floor unless it's the annual epileptic convention disco.

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Dead Souls In The Rear View Mirror Hitch A Ride For A While..


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 18:29
queue Can here

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Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 18:55
Ah, just thought of one that fits the bill exactly. Slave Called Shiver by Porcupine Tree. That's got a groove you can hang your hat on.

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Dead Souls In The Rear View Mirror Hitch A Ride For A While..


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 20:04
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

queue Can here
[kidding]If only they had a decent rhythm section [/kidding]

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Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 21:22
Originally posted by Snow Dog

...Prog does groove.  It grooves on more levels.
THIS!!


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 27 2012 at 23:40
Here's a bunch by King Crimson:

21st Century Schizoid Man
Pictures Of A City
Cat Food
Indoor Games
Ladies Of The Road
Sailor's Tale
Easy Money
Talking Drum
Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II
Lament
Red
One More Red Nightmare
Providence (bass solo section)
Indiscipline
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Matte Kudasai
Frame By Frame
Sartori In Tangier
Waiting Man
Heartbeat
Man With An Open Heart
Three With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.


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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:16
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Here's a bunch by King Crimson:

21st Century Schizoid Man
Pictures Of A City
Cat Food
Indoor Games
Ladies Of The Road
Sailor's Tale
Easy Money
Talking Drum
Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II
Lament
Red
One More Red Nightmare
Providence (bass solo section)
Indiscipline
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Matte Kudasai
Frame By Frame
Sartori In Tangier
Waiting Man
Heartbeat
Man With An Open Heart
Three With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove.
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever.  Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 01:58
^ Now that recently there had been a few mentions of Starless and Bible Black, ... come on - it is King Crimson's turn when it comes to grooving. Take the whole of that album; about 50% of it is grooving, improvisations here and there. Gees, this blues-rock fanatic is not gonna have a homework assignment; he is gonna have a freaking semester project to complete with our suggestions.

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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 03:54
Stone-headed Frisco spacer
Ate all the meat I gave her
Said would I like to taste hers
And even craved the flavor
 



 


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Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 07:34
If I understand correctly what is prog, and I have a feeling for what grooves, then this just drowned me in an ocean of groovy jazzy funky progginess (starting around the 3:40min mark all the way to the end)
[TUBE]CcxS-HU2qH0[/TUBE]



Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 08:02
To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 09:05
Because some people want steady music and not necessarily something with lots of changes, surprises and disruptions.  It's after all a party and not a focused listening session.  I mentioned GG as some groovy prog but even that has a stop start quality that a lot of prog generally does.  Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with music that relies on the momentum of a steady groove either.  


Posted By: Apollo2112
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 11:50
Originally posted by Progosopher

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha

Here's a bunch by King Crimson:

21st Century Schizoid Man
Pictures Of A City
Cat Food
Indoor Games
Ladies Of The Road
Sailor's Tale
Easy Money
Talking Drum
Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part II
Lament
Red
One More Red Nightmare
Providence (bass solo section)
Indiscipline
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Matte Kudasai 
Frame By Frame
Sartori In Tangier
Waiting Man
Heartbeat
Man With An Open Heart
Three With A Perfect Pair

Pokes a very big hole in the claim that progressive rock has no groove. 
Talking Drum has one of the best grooves ever.  Just start that bass line going and everyone will pick up on it.
YES!

Talking Drum is one of the best grooves ever. Also, Thela Hun Ginjeet Smile


Posted By: friso
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 12:20
In general prog does nog grove, but of course we can mention bands like Can, Magma and others that make up an exception. It is true that a strong emphasis on the rhythmical dimension of music can make it more easily acceptable for many peoples ears.


Posted By: Matthew _Gill
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 12:46
Archive groove, perhaps too much for Prog purists.

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Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 13:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

I don't think that groove and soul have anything to do with each other. I find grooves purposeful for dancing or just getting energized. Soul has nothing to do with that. Soul is about beauty.
This!
 
That said, of course prog can groove. A lot of good examples of that in this thread. Neelus, your friend is simply wrong! Go straight up to him and tell him that...or not, if you want to keep the friendshipWink


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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 14:12
Music mustn't attract too much attention to itself in order to stand the party test.
Professional dancers are more likely to enjoy a dancing challenge.

Some tracks I'd dance only in my office really...


Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 14:42
Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. 
If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions then Prog has as much soul as any other genre- perhaps more than some (Pop comes to mind here!).
From the melancholy of Talk Talks's Spirit of Eden, or the overwhelming sadness in Pain of Salvation's Remedy Lane to sheer joy in large swathes of Yes, Genesis , Spock's Beard and The Flower Kings.
I'm sure everyone has their own list, but  for music to touch us, and move us is for it to have its most lasting effect. I can appreciate some music, enjoy it on an intellectual level, but if it doesn't move me I won't listen to it very often.


-------------


Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:00
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

queue Can here

also queue Magma here


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http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:17
Prog grooves as well as blues, but it has more than three chords  Tongue

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 15:47
Big smile That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.

Originally posted by wjohnd

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.


-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 16:27
Originally posted by HolyMoly

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?
A lot of this also has to do with familiarity, with the artist as well as with the style.  I actually did this once, and yes, it stopped almost everything.  Popular so-called dance music from Disco onwards has never actually made me want to dance.  That a groove is more than just a good beat is pertinent.  For me, the whole band has to be adding to the groove for it to work - it is not just a matter of the rythym section laying it down.  The lead instruments, including the vocals, can add to a good groove.  But by groove, I do not mean just danceable.  It's got to get my head and mind moving as well as my body.  Two of my favorite grooves are sections found in extended suites - Echoes by Pink Floyd and Part II of Waves by Jade Warrior.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 17:00
Soul is very important in rock music. What else could you sell to the Devil?Wink

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 18:22
Originally posted by HolyMoly

To be fair to the hypothetical "bad guy" in this discussion, I think the "groove" he means is more than just a good beat. Plenty of prog around with that, as we've shown. But I think there's something else they see as missing. Say I'm at a party. A groovy playlist is playing, and everyone's having a good time. I think, "some Crimson would really take this soiree to a new level!" So I put on the groooviest, slinkiest Crim track, a sure thing. And immediately everyone stops dancing and looks around uncomfortably. Within a few minutes someone puts the old mix back on.

I think the question/problem is, why does this happen? What's missing? This scenario has actually happened to me, and I think it has its roots in this "groove" conundrum. This gulf does exist. But why?

You can only dance to music that is completely uniform and predictable (unless you're really good at it or know the song beforehand). Very little prog music fulfills both criteria.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 19:55
Originally posted by octopus-4

Soul is very important in rock music. What else could you sell to the Devil?Wink

LOL


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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 20:43
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Big smile That's right. All you plastic music lovers, eat yer fecking hearts out.

Originally posted by wjohnd

Soul is such a loose word it is almost meaningless. If it means that it can make you feel deep emotions ... .

OK, I'm pretty sure that we were not talking about the elements of soul in prog, so I don't know any other meaning of the word "soul" that we could have possibly been using in the ongoing discussion. If that blues-rock fanatic meant the elements of soul music, he would say that.

He's a blues rock fanatic, so what else would you expect?  In all likelihood, let alone prog, he probably doesn't have time for mostly any European music forms.  


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 22:59
If anyone tells me AQUALUNG doesn't groove I shall strangle them with a flute. Lol. Just kidding.

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Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 23:08
If anyone tells me "My God" doesn't groove, ... then I'll know that person will burn in hell. Just kidding. LOL Big smile

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 28 2012 at 23:49
Jade Warrior - Barazinbar. Prog grooves!


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 03:37
[QUOTE=Progosopher] A lot of this also has to do with familiarityQUOTE]
Yes, at a party, what noone know, wont work.

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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 15:18
Originally posted by tamijo

[QUOTE=Progosopher] A lot of this also has to do with familiarityQUOTE]
Yes, at a party, what noone know, wont work.
 
You hope!
 
And think!
 
But you are suggesting that everyone is not sensitive enough to see this and pick it up on some level of perception that you can not conceive? So, everyone else has to be on the same level as you?


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 15:15
Who the hell said prog does not groove?

[TUBE]imm_pEHp7fU[/TUBE]


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 19:34
^ not me. 👍

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Jellybeantiger
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 22:52
The middle section of Echoes grooves.
Frank Zappa grooves.
 
Op's friend somone from the upper class Pitchfork Media,Rolling Stone set?


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Trying to spread the good prog to mud eared Aussies.


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 23:28
Originally posted by HackettFan

Jade Warrior - Barazinbar. Prog grooves!
Good call!  I am currently listening to Open by Steve Hillage.  Plenty of discoey groovin'.  Two of his other albums, Motivation Radio and Green, also have a lot of this sort of stuff.

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 00:06
My brain is grooving to GG's "A Cry For Everyone".

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: filipe
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 04:34
If i were to have a conversation with your pal, i would say two things:

1st) To compare prog rock and blues rock is like comparing a high school essay with a PhD thesis: the second one may be a nice reading, but it doesn't have the complexity or the depth of explanation the first one does.

2nd) To consider something groovy is an extremely relative issue. If you came to Brazil (my country) and said that blues rock is a groovy style, most people would laugh and (excuse me the language) sh*t in your face. Our popular music styles, like 'Samba', 'Pagode' and 'Axé' are undoubtly ten thousand times more groovier than any blues rock song is, was, or it will ever be. You will never be able to dance to a blues rock song enjoying yourself like you can to any of our styles.


(PS: I don't mean to diminish the value of blues rock, i love bands like Gov't Mule, Joe Bonamasse, and many more. What i meant is that you can always win a conversation by being an a****le, but when being like that there will always be someone who can win over you and put you back in your place. Hope i made myself clear.)

(PPS: In this thought i took in consideration that groovy means something that provides kiddy joy and is highly danceable to.) 

Cheers! 


-------------
Be


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 06:38
I think prog grooves - listen to Gentle Giants The Missing Piece album - wait, thats not prog actuallyWink

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Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 07:07
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush

I think prog grooves - listen to Gentle Giants The Missing Piece album - wait, thats not prog actuallyWink

I think a good deal of it is. Well, maybe more art rock. 


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http://superdensecrushloadfactor.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Superdensecrushloadfactor


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 07:12
Originally posted by irrelevant

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush

I think prog grooves - listen to Gentle Giants The Missing Piece album - wait, thats not prog actuallyWink

I think a good deal of it is. Well, maybe more art rock. 


Yeah its not that bad I am just having a dig at this silly thread.


You cant put Prog in a box... well, unless you own this!



-------------


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 08:49
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by tamijo

[QUOTE=Progosopher] A lot of this also has to do with familiarityQUOTE]
Yes, at a party, what noone know, wont work.
 
You hope!
 
And think!
 
But you are suggesting that everyone is not sensitive enough to see this and pick it up on some level of perception that you can not conceive? So, everyone else has to be on the same level as you?
Sorry but i dont understand what you are saying here.

-------------
My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 08:54
Originally posted by tamijo

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by tamijo

[QUOTE=Progosopher] A lot of this also has to do with familiarityQUOTE]
Yes, at a party, what noone know, wont work.
 
You hope!
 
And think!
 
But you are suggesting that everyone is not sensitive enough to see this and pick it up on some level of perception that you can not conceive? So, everyone else has to be on the same level as you?
Sorry but i dont understand what you are saying here.


ah thats ok - he speaketh a different language but we love him all thesame


everything ok, Moshy? havent heard from you of late


-------------


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 10:24
Originally posted by filipe

1st) To compare prog rock and blues rock is like comparing a high school essay with a PhD thesis: the second one may be a nice reading, but it doesn't have the complexity or the depth of explanation the first one does.
I believe you meant to mention PhD first and high school second. Wink

-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 14:42
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush


Originally posted by irrelevant


Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush

I think prog grooves - listen to Gentle Giants The Missing Piece album - wait, thats not prog actuallyWink

I think a good deal of it is. Well, maybe more art rock. 

Yeah its not that bad I am just having a dig at this silly thread.
You cant put Prog in a box... well, unless you own this!


That looks like a really awesome collection. I love Box sets like that. Also, I'm yet to explore MAGMA. What other bands could you equate them too? Do they embody more of a 70's sound of prog? I suppose they groove at times as well. :)

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 14:45
4 pages and not a single mention of the king of groove? Makes me sad, but I will however scream it at the top of my lungs: DEEEEEEEEMON FUZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Motown goes Canterbury! A genuine masterpiece:




-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 14:52
Originally posted by filipe

If i were to have a conversation with your pal, i would say two things:
1st) To compare prog rock and blues rock is like comparing a high school essay with a PhD thesis: the second one may be a nice reading, but it doesn't have the complexity or the depth of explanation the first one does.
2nd) To consider something groovy is an extremely relative issue. If you came to Brazil (my country) and said that blues rock is a groovy style, most people would laugh and (excuse me the language) sh*t in your face. Our popular music styles, like 'Samba', 'Pagode' and 'Axé' are undoubtly ten thousand times more groovier than any blues rock song is, was, or it will ever be. You will never be able to dance to a blues rock song enjoying yourself like you can to any of our styles.
(PS: I don't mean to diminish the value of blues rock, i love bands like Gov't Mule, Joe Bonamasse, and many more. What i meant is that you can always win a conversation by being an a****le, but when being like that there will always be someone who can win over you and put you back in your place. Hope i made myself clear.)
(PPS: In this thought i took in consideration that groovy means something that provides kiddy joy and is highly danceable to.) 
Cheers! 


In music, especially Prog there are a lot of different classifications on what groove(s) or is groovey sounding. It's hard to specify, but I dont think anybody has the right to 'sh*t of anyone's face' just because that one thinks definitively that culturally their music grooves more than the other. South American and North American music origins are vastly different
And one simply doesn't groove more than the other. It's just a different type of groove and wether you think that it's like comparing a phd paper to high school essay maybe a bit subjective.

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 14:53
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

4 pages and not a single mention of the king of groove? Makes me sad, but I will however scream it at the top of my lungs: DEEEEEEEEMON FUZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Motown goes Canterbury! A genuine masterpiece.
Yeah, well, ... I didn't know anything about it.

-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 15:00
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Guldbamsen

4 pages and not a single mention of the king of groove? Makes me sad, but I will however scream it at the top of my lungs: DEEEEEEEEMON FUZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Motown goes Canterbury! A genuine masterpiece.
Yeah, well, ... I didn't know anything about it.


Yeah, sadly this one seems to be fairly obscure - at least in prog rock circles. Such a shameOuch
[TUBE]vgg3BJU5WKQ&playnext=1&list=PL27F4ADF7BF20FBB5&feature=results_main[/TUBE]


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 16:02
That is some seriously cool fusion Smile...It funks and then some


Posted By: filipe
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 18:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by filipe

1st) To compare prog rock and blues rock is like comparing a high school essay with a PhD thesis: the second one may be a nice reading, but it doesn't have the complexity or the depth of explanation the first one does.
I believe you meant to mention PhD first and high school second. Wink

Exactly! Sorry for that! :P


-------------
Be


Posted By: filipe
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 18:58
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by filipe

If i were to have a conversation with your pal, i would say two things:
1st) To compare prog rock and blues rock is like comparing a high school essay with a PhD thesis: the second one may be a nice reading, but it doesn't have the complexity or the depth of explanation the first one does.
2nd) To consider something groovy is an extremely relative issue. If you came to Brazil (my country) and said that blues rock is a groovy style, most people would laugh and (excuse me the language) sh*t in your face. Our popular music styles, like 'Samba', 'Pagode' and 'Axé' are undoubtly ten thousand times more groovier than any blues rock song is, was, or it will ever be. You will never be able to dance to a blues rock song enjoying yourself like you can to any of our styles.
(PS: I don't mean to diminish the value of blues rock, i love bands like Gov't Mule, Joe Bonamasse, and many more. What i meant is that you can always win a conversation by being an a****le, but when being like that there will always be someone who can win over you and put you back in your place. Hope i made myself clear.)
(PPS: In this thought i took in consideration that groovy means something that provides kiddy joy and is highly danceable to.) 
Cheers! 


In music, especially Prog there are a lot of different classifications on what groove(s) or is groovey sounding. It's hard to specify, but I dont think anybody has the right to 'sh*t of anyone's face' just because that one thinks definitively that culturally their music grooves more than the other. South American and North American music origins are vastly different
And one simply doesn't groove more than the other. It's just a different type of groove and wether you think that it's like comparing a phd paper to high school essay maybe a bit subjective.

Of course, I understand and respect that. I would never say that to anyone. What i meant is that, if he wanted to win the conversation with his (apparently a****le) pal, and that if by groove his pal meant the level of how 'dancy' and happy a song is or not, he could citate these brazilian rhythms, which are, without a doubt, more dancy and happy than blues rock. No need to get touchy, i'm on the guys and in the politeness side! :P


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Be


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 19:14
So what. It is not like I want to dance to it. It is better that prog is not mainstream because that sh8t goes out of style and never comes back. Done any disco moves lately?


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 19:52
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

Originally posted by Guldbamsen

4 pages and not a single mention of the king of groove? Makes me sad, but I will however scream it at the top of my lungs: DEEEEEEEEMON FUZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Motown goes Canterbury! A genuine masterpiece.
Yeah, well, ... I didn't know anything about it.


Yeah, sadly this one seems to be fairly obscure - at least in prog rock circles. Such a shameOuch
[TUBE]vgg3BJU5WKQ&playnext=1&list=PL27F4ADF7BF20FBB5&feature=results_main[/TUBE]


That was funkadelic to the wall jamming there.


The Sax was incredible played by Paddy Corea. The track is Mercy bu I havent heard any others. Reminds me more of Osibisa and Santana with some Zappa thrown in


It grooves man!


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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:22
Originally posted by timothy leary

So what. It is not like I want to dance to it. It is better that prog is not mainstream because that sh8t goes out of style and never comes back. Done any disco moves lately?
My level 86 pal does them every once in a while in WoW.

-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:37
^ Polyester


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:42
^ What do you mean?

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:48
Disco and polyester, like hippies and tie dye


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:50
LOL ... except that I wear armor, but that's not important. Big smile

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 21:04
I got you, I raised kids and am familiar with what you are saying


Posted By: coupons
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 05:27
I am running Groove 2007 on Vista Ultimate. When I attempt to open a Word Doc from a workspace I receive this error and am unable to open the document: "This file does not have a program associated with it for performing this action. Create an association in the Set ...

-------------


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 13:13
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq

LOL ... except that I wear armor, but that's not important. Big smile


Upload a video of that! Too funny. You would get a zillion hits on you tube.

-------------
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)


Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 13:36
[TUBE]sRG6FWVpovo&feature=related[/TUBE]




move on no groove here


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 14:37

Almost all jazz-fusion is groovy

And what about bands like Osibisa, Cymande, Mandrill ?
Also the german krautrock fusion band Embryo :
[tube]gn-VYMiUVv4&feature=related[/tube]
 
Among the giants of prog :
[tube]x64WVv25UZs&feature=related[/tube]
 
[tube]lFOOQ8e5J3A&feature=relmfu[/tube]
 
[tube]0USQgbXXzGk&feature=relmfu[/tube]
 
[tube]peXiOeUip9M[/tube]
 
[tube]_2C-H_NwodE&feature=related[/tube]
 
But the most groovy of all the prog bands is probably Saga :
[tube]d-ILp4nQCK0[/tube]


-------------
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 15:37
^ IMO, the idea of a groove has more to do more with the emphasis on the rhythm section. That said, I would probably rule a song or two out in my head.

-------------
"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Neelus
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 15:40
I will add some funk by the classic Yes lineup that you all know:
[TUBE]FIpVlcTeXvE[/TUBE]

[TUBE]p3fQ1wPCFdc[/TUBE]


Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 06 2012 at 05:42
^^^^^Agh I havent seen that naked bottom for ages - it reminds me of the Yes era I have steered clear of.Tongue

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