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Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.

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Topic: Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.
Posted By: Thandrus
Subject: Simple statistics, misconceptions disproved.
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:02
Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

I was as amazed as some of you might get. The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog. As you can see here, there are almost two times more symphonic prog bands in US than in UK. Germany has just as many symphonic prog bands as UK. Could what we've thought all this time be just a matter of exposure? Share your thoughts, please!

P.S. This doesn't even take into the account all the Italian prog bands, who were mostly of symphonic variety.



Replies:
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:29
Beyond Kansas, can you name me any US, or for that matter German, Symph Prog bands that have remotely had the level of influence that Genesis, ELP, Yes, Renaissance, et all have had?

Didn't think so.

Besides, since the 80's most British prog bands have ended up being classed as Neo-Prog, where as the Americans have definitely concentrated more on Symph. 

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 05:52
Sleeper, let's say I can name quite a few :) I agree about influence, but could / couldn't this be more a matter of exposure than of quality difference?

Yeah, Neo Prog "steal" does have a role, but still, even considering this the result is:

UK: 40 + 96 = 136
US: 76 + 67 = 143
Germany: 40 + 38 = 78

Germany's out, but US still leading.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:32
Or,  never mind the quality feel the width.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:47
Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 06:49
It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 07:25
Originally posted by Thandrus

Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

...
 
Considering the size of each country and the number of its population, those numbers are way off and simply a top ten number that is not indicative of a whole lot of much ... except bad statistics to feed the sadistic mind of the populist ideals!  Embarrassed   
 
Wink
 
If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!
 
To me, this is the hard part of the "top ten" mentality ... you see the numbers without a perspective of what they mean ... and this is exactly what I mean that when London sells 100k copies of something it becomes a hit that we are supposed to hear and buy, and the same in NY, or Tokyo ... but the rest of the world has not heard it, or cares about it ... and it "forces you" to listen and "appreciate" the new Number One ... which, of course, is only happening in one place, not others! Nashville rarely cares, for example!
 
Without trying to sound smug, or bad, this is exactly why we need to get rid of the top ten mentality in progressive music ... it teaches you to look at the wrong thing ... popularity ... instead of the value of the music itself. That, in no way, is to state that the public does not have good taste ... if that were the case, Janis, Jimi, Jim and many others would never have been heard ... but it spoke a lot for the abilities and their music ... and you have to see that scale and how it balances out.
 
You can see how we can get tired of the NY media, or London media, or Tokyo media (we ignore that one really good!), telling us what is best and what is superior! Specially when there is so much more music everywhere in the world that those folks, and you and I, have never heard ... or eever will bother to hear!
 
If I may suggest, also be a "progressive" listener and "progressive" thinker ... a lot of the music and its variety and other work in other countries, will make a lot more sense to your palate! The beauty is endless. It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!
 
Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!
 
Remember that next time you go see the latest greatest movie that made 100 Million!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by Snow Dog

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.


This is what I was going to say. If you weight by population, the U.K. would come out far ahead of the U.S. and Germany. Per capita, the U.K. has the most Symphonic Prog bands.


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Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:21
How does Sweden fare when it comes down to prog bands  per capita?   I know of towns in Finland and Sweden with less than 20,000 people,  with five or more prog bands mentioned on prog archives.   Wikipedia says:

Sweden also has a prominent choral music tradition, deriving in part from the cultural importance of Swedish folk songs. In fact, out of a population of 9.5 million, it is estimated that five to six hundred thousand people sing in choirs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#cite_note-171" rel="nofollow - - [171]

In 2007, with over 800 million dollars in revenue, Sweden was the third largest music exporter in the world and surpassed only by the US and the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#cite_note-export_music-172" rel="nofollow - - [172

 
 


Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:23
Originally posted by Blacksword

Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.

Well, no need of specific analogs - ... but when US has a wonderband (IMO, of course) like Maelstrom almost unknown, this points to some kind of prejudice born out of popular misconception against US symph. And who knows
how many more bands we have to hear and fully appreciate!

PFM example is a bit irrelevant IMO, because if we touch Italy, we have to stand against  the most massive symphonic avalanche there has ever been LOL

Yes, nobody argues that UK is a home for symphonic prog - that's what indeed it is; but there could be just as many symphonic ideas over the Atlantic - at least so many just not to deem American symphonic prog a priori second-rate 
Smile

Originally posted by Snow Dog

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.

Well yes, population size matters - but when we talk about country's prog input we usually mean it in absolute terms, not relative to country's size; With former approach Belgium could be viewed as one of the European prog leaders, relative to their area / population - which is absolutely not the case.

Originally posted by moshkito

If you have 150 out of 200 million people instead of 150 out of 40 million (whatevuuuuhhh!!!) ... the number becomes almost trivial and in America, and massive in Germany or England!

Yes but again, we measure input as an absolute term, not per capita Wink

Originally posted by moshkito

It's almost like saying that Swedish women are ugly, or Russian women, or Thai women, or Australian women ... and you know that is really full of it!

Sadly that's a kind of approach I've often encountered towards American symphonic prog Confused

Originally posted by moshkito

Some statistics are worth their salt ... but they need to have PERSPECTIVE. In a relational sense, your statistic would not go very far in college, btw! A professor at UCSB in Sociology 101 used to get everyone to create these statistical everythings on the first week, and then proceed to shoot them all down ... out loud in front of the whole class ... so you got the idea ... that numbers are an ADVERTISING TOOL ... not necessarily a scientific tool!

Sure, it was a simple search that quite amazed and a bit confused me. The PERSPECTIVE and moral of it (for me, at least) is that much of US symph is thrown into the wastebin and regarded as a second-tier. And yeah, most of it is very unpopular too, judging by review numbers - so, saying again, it points to some popular misconception angainst it, not the opinion formed by thorough investigation Wink


Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 08:52
This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."


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Please pay a visit to my blog... http://darkelffile.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - The Dark Elf File ...a slighty skewed journal of music reviews, literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:00
They also have more Golf players in US than in Europe.
But they loose.Wink
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Ryder_Cup" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Ryder_Cup


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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:33
With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.


Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 10:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Originally posted by Gerinski

With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.

Can you tell me WHY? Besides, the point I made was that US symph at least requires much closer attention. This is its primal meaning; Any additional meaning will be available as / if it gets more exposure LOL

Originally posted by Tamijo

They also have more Golf players in US than in Europe.
But they loose.

... but not because Tiger Woods is second to any one Big smile


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 11:22
Hungary has few bands and all of them almost symphonic...

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 11:38
Originally posted by Thandrus


Originally posted by Gerinski

With all due respect, your "statistics" (if you can call a simple count that) is alright as long as you agree that it's pretty meaningless.

Can you tell me WHY? Besides, the point I made was that US symph at least requires much closer attention. This is its primal meaning; Any additional meaning will be available as / if it gets more exposure LOL 
Well that didn't seem to be your point in the OP. Your statistics merely revealed the fact that there are more US bands listed in PA than UK bands, nothing more and nothing less (that's what I mean by "pretty meaningless", just a numerical count without any references has an extremely limited information value), but the point you made of this fact was
 
Originally posted by Thandrus

The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog.
which is not a valid inference from that fact.
I sense that you now understand that you just revealed that there are more US bands in PA than UK bands so in numerical terms people might want to pay attention to those US bands, and that's fine for me. No offence intended.


Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:02
Originally posted by octopus-4

Hungary has few bands and all of them almost symphonic...

Hungary's great when it comes to symphonic prog!

Originally posted by Gerinski

which is not a valid inference from that fact.
I sense that you now understand that you just revealed that there are more US bands in PA than UK bands so in numerical terms people might want to pay attention to those US bands, and that's fine for me. No offence intended.

Well yeah, I might have been a bit radical / hasty with my conclusions - but anyways, you could tell that amount of ideas generated there was no less. Concerning quality, I think most of prog fans don't know it enough (myself included) to judge it. So it's likely that from this big amount of material reasonable percentage would be gems (just like everywhere, even England). So, attention is warranted Smile

BTW, does the forum policy allow to post YouTube links for full albums? So we could share some of US gems available there. I've seen songs shared, but not albums, that's why I'm asking. Smile


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:06
Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc.
These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other.

I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK.
Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many.

Anyway. My feeling is that the U.S has the most, but the UK produce the best. Just my opinion.

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:26
Originally posted by Thandrus


BTW, does the forum policy allow to post YouTube links for full albums? So we could share some of US gems available there. I've seen songs shared, but not albums, that's why I'm asking. Smile
Nothing against the policy as far as I know, the site hosting the material is You Tube not PA.
There was a thread not long ago posting links to full prog-related documentaries in You Tube.


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: December 03 2012 at 17:02
German Symphonic Prog band Triumvirat hit the Top 40 in the USA with Spartacus in '75. At the time, more an exception to the rule, as far as German Sym. Prog making a dent in North America. Triumvirat also hit Number 1 in Portugal and in the top 4 in Brazil only a year later in terms of album sales. (they were not a singles oriented band)

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"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 07:52
Originally posted by Blacksword

Who is the US or European Genesis, Yes, ELP etc..??

Starcastle? Glass Hammer? Spocks Beard? PFM?    

Love those bands, but I think the point to be made is that England IS the home of symphonic prog rock in terms of what that particular subgenre spawned and influenced globally.
 
I would disagree there ... Italian bands were much more influenced by the orchestra and many of them did a lot of orchestral type of work ... simply with electric instruments. You can say Keith did the same thing, but you can not argue with Italy's history of music next to England ... opera alone would render you crazy and ethnocentric.
 
The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
Ange was as good, if not better than Genesis will ever be. Mona Lisa and the school that came out of that group that were Ange copies. Italy had so many of them, it's hard to even mention it, and you might even sit and listen to Aqua Fragile one day ... so you get the idea. Spain had a massive number of bands that looked up to YES ... almost to a ridiculous point, but they did some awesome things ... Granada, Azahar and others. Germany had many of them, like Wallenstein, as part of the Cosmic Couriers (not intentionally I don't think!), but many bands also copied Nektar, like Message. Jane/Eloy were/are sister bands that shared some members. Grobbschnitt could be considered symphonic in their use of the leyboards ... though Mr. Eroc was quite different and crazy on his own ... and fun!
 
There were many in America as well ... but not many of them made it to the radio by the time that the FM band went commercial in the mid 70's. I can go over my record collection easily enough and list bands that you never heard off ... and then you say that the music didn't exist!  MUSIC WAS ALWAYS THERE ... it's our ears that weren't! Plain and simple. And it's still a hard battle to open up ears here, specially in a thread like this! Yes, Genesis and ELP were not the front runners ... they were a part of it all just like everyone else. It was a continuing process ... but for you to say that no band had a keyboard at the Fillmore ... you know you are incorrect ... though the place was so cheap that no having keyboards was much easier ... but even Santana was highly progressive already at the time! It's a Beautiful Day! Jefferson Airplane ... and many others.


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 08:00
Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll ChoiceVotesPoll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164" rel="nofollow - www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164 )
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 08:10
Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc.
These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other.

I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK.
Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many.

...
 
I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!
 
And we gave up!
 
This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 09:40
And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


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"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 11:14
Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 11:56
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc. These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other. I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK. Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many. ...

 

I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!

 

And we gave up!

 

This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!


That is why the right kind of exposure is important both on a nation platform and as a music platform. They go hand in hand. England had achieved this well in my eyes. :)

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 15:22
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

This just goes to show you the truth in the saying Mark Twain popularized:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
LOLClapLOLLOLClapLOLLOLLOLClap


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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 15:54
Its a label, classification that gets discussed about a lot....Symphonic, neo.....so on. Its like asking what sells more in <insert country name> Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 
So to see the US with the highest number leaves a lot of questions in my mind as to who/what is classifying and is it right.....if there is a such a thing as right/wrong.


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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 16:05
Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.


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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 17:47
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!


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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 18:14
Originally posted by Catcher10

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!


Quite right.


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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 19:52
^ im gonna be a b*****d and choose diet coke and it's the worst one for you!!! Bah hee hee hee hee

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 04 2012 at 20:12
Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:00
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Catcher10

Coke or Pepsi?
To some people they are both the same drink......
 


Yeah, to people with no taste buds.
 
Agree.......as Coke is clearly the winner!


Quite right.
Actualy Coke or Pepsi - both undrinkable to me because you might as well eat spoonfuls of sugar...
Give me a pint of Joseph Holts finest bitter anyday LOL


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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:35
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164" rel="nofollow - www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164 )
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
Dean ... that poll applies to THIS BOARD ... whose fans and folks are much more educated about this than otherwise, which would lend a very slanted eye to that poll.
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
We were there ... and in LIVE RADIO ... with BIG fm STATIONS, and in that commercial environment, you never heard ... a foreign word ... well, in LA you heard some folks make fun of the spanish speaking thing, but even then, those were toned down severely because of the sensitivity of the issues ... and the fact that LA DID have spanish speaking stations that would gladly unload on the big name money if they abused the priviledge! AND, at least folks like Wolfman Jack made a point of closing down the barriers in between these ... but even he did not play a lot of the spanish stuff ... as he was more centered on grabbing the english-speaking spanish population ... which many years later, was the audience that gave you Univision, and Galavision ... that grew up during the World Soccer games ... by blowing out ESPN/Disney and others by making 10 times the money! Respect!
 
Bands like PFM, Banco, Le Orme, Ange and others ... were kind of a miracle ... that they got heard ... and Guy in Santa Barbara was one of the folks that played these indiscriminally. And many folks in LA KNEW that ... specially at JEM, Moby Disk, Tower and the Warehouse in Westwood -- probably the biggest importers of foreign stuff in those days ... I think that Archie Patterson (Eurock) can give a better discussion of the LA market than anyone else we know ... mine is just an overview by comparison! Archie was/is part of the importer business and he would know the demand and what worked and sold.
 
Again ... please read this comment ... while Golden Earring is being played ... "it's not rock'n'roll" ... and Guy replies ... "who cares! It's great music ... " and the song is "Are You Receicing Me?" ... this defines "progressive music" and what you and I are doing a lot more than anything else!
 
Stop comparing this board to events that happened 30/40 years ago. The music we love "made it" a lot more than the reasons that you and I know ... and not just because of a place where they all can have coffee and crumpets and tea and .... you WELL KNOW that we did not have a board like this, THEN (to quote PC and DM!) ... and we found the music ... it was 10 to 20 times harder in Southern California!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 07:44
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by progbethyname

Think this just comes down to simple demographics like land mass, population density, average age etc. These all can relate to a stronger likely hood that a country will have more than the other. I bet the US has the most, But their exposure is not as well known as the UK. Germany. I'm not surprised. Just not enough exposure. I think I only listen to A Poverty's no crime and Vaden Plas. Can't name too many. ...

 I think that, if we are to help "progressive" ... make it ... that we have to let go of the "might makes right" concept and learn from it. If all we deal with is mass and density, then the US and England probably lose ... with one possible exception ... it is no secret that both America and England championed the computer age quickly and helped the world see far more than just news and Big Ben ... and the arts and music was really big in the media ... along with the big show ... VIETNAM ... IRA ... and that helps identify and show other cultures. America's media killed the public individuality on purpose ... or as Reagan said ... let them smoke dope and I will win all the elections! ... and made them all look dirty, ugly and stupid ... right in front of garbage, too!

 

And we gave up!

 

This is the side of "progressive" ... that everyone refuses to look at ... read the lyrics and what most of them are about. KC's is not just some meaningless lyrics. Genesis, all the way to Lamb, is not just a bunch of meaningless crap. Yes is not meaningless crap until it became just another pop band! ELP ... same thing ... don't give me lies ... and the sucker screams it at your ears ... and it means nothing to you ... it has less to do with "symphonic" or "progressive" than it does the attitude that we all had at the time ... You gotta see that ... or music will forever be meaningless to you! ... just favorites!


That is why the right kind of exposure is important both on a nation platform and as a music platform. They go hand in hand. England had achieved this well in my eyes. :)
 
Agreed.
 
Thank you!
 
And I attribute a lot of that to things like Melody Maker, that at least had a massive concert list/adverts ... in America, there was no such thing, and the music was separated ... and Rolling Stone gave up music for the fame and the stars. Not perfect ... but way better!
 
30 years later, I would say a board like this is on the foreground of it all!
 
Trust me ... it was fun reading that Tangerine Dream was "washing machine music" ... and that writer, obviously, had too much wax and dope in his ears, because he did not even know the difference between a washing machine and something that was considered music!
 
I think the publications in London were a bit more respectful ... comparatively speaking ... but the US was at least 3 or 4 different countries and what NY liked the folks in SF didn't and vice versa ... whereas London was wayyyyyyyyyy more centralized ... which made it easier to sell a concert ... Nektar had to fill up 4 or 5 different countries in America ... only one in London!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 08:08
Originally posted by Argonaught

Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 



Well, considering jazz-rock fusion was just beginning (in USA) when symphonic was starting, I'm not sure of the connection there.  Symphonic was quite mature when jazz-rock fusion exploded.  I could be wrong of course, as they do seem to have developed at the same time and I wasn't there so can't really say just how much cross fertilization there was (and there is no denying the jazz elements in the first Crimson album, which may or may not be the first symph rock album).  Jazz was certainly around long before prog rock in general, but it seems like jazz rock really came into its own AFTER symphonic prog was well established.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 09:07
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164" rel="nofollow - www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164 )
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
Dean ... that poll applies to THIS BOARD ... whose fans and folks are much more educated about this than otherwise, which would lend a very slanted eye to that poll.
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
and you said " ... and this has happened here on this board! " yet the poll says it's not. And now you say it's not too. Confused


-------------


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 10:14
Originally posted by Argonaught

Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them Wink

Now, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).

I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 

Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 

 

I'd say it was more to do with Jazz in general than just Jazz Rock/Fusion, which was sort of happening similtaniously with prog, as well as classical music.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 17:33
Originally posted by infandous


Originally posted by Argonaught


Originally posted by infandous

Of the US bands, how many play symph prog because of British Symph prog?  I'd wager,  ALL of them WinkNow, I'm American and have no problem that we were/are "second" when it comes to symph prog.  Of course, it's worth also remembering that it was American music that first inspired many/most of the English musicians to start playing and exploring the possibilities of rock and blues (countless British musicians cut their teeth on the blues, a purely American invention).


I also believe that a range of prog's hallmark features directly stems from the very American jazz-rock fusion. Such as: effortless fluctuation of time signatures, complex melodies and texture, pure instrumentals, emphasis on musicianship, open-minded choice of musical instruments and style diversity. 
Like they say, you give me an apple, I give you another one, and both of us will still have one apple each. But, if you give me an idea, and I give you mine, both of us will have two ideas. 
 
Well, considering jazz-rock fusion was just beginning (in USA) when symphonic was starting, I'm not sure of the connection there.  Symphonic was quite mature when jazz-rock fusion exploded.  I could be wrong of course, as they do seem to have developed at the same time and I wasn't there so can't really say just how much cross fertilization there was (and there is no denying the jazz elements in the first Crimson album, which may or may not be the first symph rock album).  Jazz was certainly around long before prog rock in general, but it seems like jazz rock really came into its own AFTER symphonic prog was well established.

Frank Zappa's Hot Rats, one of the pioneer albums of jazz-rock fusion, came out in 1969, so it was coming out at the same time, not after.

I myself am from the US and I'm more than happy to declare that the history of Symphonic Prog was decidedly in the UK. This history will always be relevant even if things skew differently in contemporary times. I hasten to point out that Frank Zappa, though not of the Symphonic Prog genre (even though he worked with symphonies, including the London Symphony Orchestra), was very well known and very influential. True we're only talking about Symphonic Prog from the start of this thread, but some of the discussion could give an impression that there was nothing happening here in the US with respect to Prog. There was, but it was a bit different.


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: December 05 2012 at 23:01
Originally posted by moshkito

  MUSIC WAS ALWAYS THERE ... it's our ears that weren't!


Quoted for truth Thumbs Up (somewhat out of context, I know, but I think true to the spirit of the comment).


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In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 06 2012 at 01:20
isn't it just probably a matter of numbers?; the US is enormous, it will have more of most things


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 06 2012 at 06:12
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by moshkito

The European versions were all over, except that too many folks were not able to listen to them ... or worse ... "they singing in French ... or Italian" ... and this has happened here on this board!
 
 
Poll Question: Does it matter to you if Lyrics are not in English ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
19 [13.87%]
118 [86.13%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
 
( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164" rel="nofollow - www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25164 )
 
Geek
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
Dean ... that poll applies to THIS BOARD ... whose fans and folks are much more educated about this than otherwise, which would lend a very slanted eye to that poll.
 
NEXT! Stern Smile
 
and you said " ... and this has happened here on this board! " yet the poll says it's not. And now you say it's not too. Confused

Frustrating isn't it. Especially with all the evidence in the  above  quotes.


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: moodyxadi
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 17:45
Originally posted by sagichim

And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


THAT is the question that solves the "problem". "America the Great" feelings aside, the assumptions made by the "statistics"' results are plainly wrong. Deal with it.

Jazz? US rules. Pop music? They sell more. Quality and expansion even of native music genres? Ops, Old Europe kicks hard some a$$es.  


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Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 13:45
^ sadly it does.

More people like simple music. That demographic won't change for at least as long as I am alive On this planet earth

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 16:34
Originally posted by progbethyname

More people like simple music. That demographic won't change for at least as long as I am alive On this planet earth

So if I kill you...? Wink


Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 16:49
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by progbethyname

More people like simple music. That demographic won't change for at least as long as I am alive On this planet earth

So if I kill you...? Wink

reported


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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 17:00
Originally posted by moodyxadi

Originally posted by sagichim

And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


THAT is the question that solves the "problem". "America the Great" feelings aside, the assumptions made by the "statistics"' results are plainly wrong. Deal with it.

Jazz? US rules. Pop music? They sell more. Quality and expansion even of native music genres? Ops, Old Europe kicks hard some a$$es.  


When I worked at a record store, a new Aerosmith CD came in with a sticker proclaiming "America's Greatest Rock Band." I thought: "That can't be true! What about...?" and then couldn't think of any American rock bands. I am as much of a patriot as anyone, but Britain clearly destroys us at music.


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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:14
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by moodyxadi

Originally posted by sagichim

And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


THAT is the question that solves the "problem". "America the Great" feelings aside, the assumptions made by the "statistics"' results are plainly wrong. Deal with it.

Jazz? US rules. Pop music? They sell more. Quality and expansion even of native music genres? Ops, Old Europe kicks hard some a$$es.  


When I worked at a record store, a new Aerosmith CD came in with a sticker proclaiming "America's Greatest Rock Band." I thought: "That can't be true! What about...?" and then couldn't think of any American rock bands. I am as much of a patriot as anyone, but Britain clearly destroys us at music.


Brainfrating aside, are you now suggesting that Aerosmith is America's greatest rock band?  That would be surprising.


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:22
Yeah, what about Grand Funk Railroad?! Don't forget th' 'Funk!

I'm sorry. I really am. I don't got anything useful to say.


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He gave her his town house and his racing horses. Each meal she ate was a dozen courses. She had a million dollars worth of nickels and dimes. She sat around and counted them all a million times.


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:40
Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by moodyxadi

Originally posted by sagichim

And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


THAT is the question that solves the "problem". "America the Great" feelings aside, the assumptions made by the "statistics"' results are plainly wrong. Deal with it.

Jazz? US rules. Pop music? They sell more. Quality and expansion even of native music genres? Ops, Old Europe kicks hard some a$$es.  


When I worked at a record store, a new Aerosmith CD came in with a sticker proclaiming "America's Greatest Rock Band." I thought: "That can't be true! What about...?" and then couldn't think of any American rock bands. I am as much of a patriot as anyone, but Britain clearly destroys us at music.


Brainfrating aside, are you now suggesting that Aerosmith is America's greatest rock band?  That would be surprising.


I don't think very highly of Aerosmith at all, but I'm hard pressed to think of another one, unless you count backing bands like the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Maybe Boston? I'm open to suggestion.


-------------


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:58
The Doors?  Van Halen?  Alice in Chains? Hell, Nirvana?  And I haven't heard very much of The Band but they must be better than Aerosmith too 'coz it can't be very hard?


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:59
US did actually produce a number of fine acts, but in the 70's UK was a solid diamond mine in great music.

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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:00
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by Epignosis

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by moodyxadi

Originally posted by sagichim

And among all the US bands how many of them were 70's bands? Maybe most of them came much later?


THAT is the question that solves the "problem". "America the Great" feelings aside, the assumptions made by the "statistics"' results are plainly wrong. Deal with it.

Jazz? US rules. Pop music? They sell more. Quality and expansion even of native music genres? Ops, Old Europe kicks hard some a$$es.  


When I worked at a record store, a new Aerosmith CD came in with a sticker proclaiming "America's Greatest Rock Band." I thought: "That can't be true! What about...?" and then couldn't think of any American rock bands. I am as much of a patriot as anyone, but Britain clearly destroys us at music.


Brainfrating aside, are you now suggesting that Aerosmith is America's greatest rock band?  That would be surprising.


I don't think very highly of Aerosmith at all, but I'm hard pressed to think of another one, unless you count backing bands like the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Maybe Boston? I'm open to suggestion.


The Band?


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:05
Tool, Metalica, The Mars Volta, Pearl Jam, Mega D. , aren't they all US Rock bands. Better than Aerosmith ?
Then the classics : Doors, Zappa, CC revival, N. Young, Thin Lizzy, Lynyrd. 


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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:10
Zappa and Neil Young aren't bands (Neil Young is Canadian, anyway). I am not rally a fan of any of the others mentioned, although CC Revival are pretty good.

-------------


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:11
Guns n Roses, Van H., at least as good I guess, 
Talking H. Def. better I'm my taste.



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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:13
Originally posted by tamijo

US did actually produce a number of fine acts, but in the 70's UK was a solid diamond mine in great music.

Yep, I think that the more popular bands like Aerosmith, KISS or GNR give American rock a bit of a bad name.  If you exclude prog and consider only straight up rock, it doesn't match up so badly with British rock.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:15
Originally posted by thellama73

Zappa and Neil Young aren't bands (Neil Young is Canadian, anyway). I am not rally a fan of any of the others mentioned, although CC Revival are pretty good.

Each to his own then.  The Doors were way more important to rock music than Aerosmith.  I thought you said greatest and not just the one that's your favourite?


Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:16
Originally posted by thellama73

Zappa and Neil Young aren't bands (Neil Young is Canadian, anyway). I am not rally a fan of any of the others mentioned, although CC Revival are pretty good.

Not a big fan of everything I have mentioned myself, was just saying, US have produced quite a few fine rock bands.
Aerosmits are not that bad either, as a straight up rock act.


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My Music: www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - www.jokeinc.bandcamp.com
My blog: www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - www.tamijo2013.wordpress.com


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:26
Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by thellama73

Zappa and Neil Young aren't bands (Neil Young is Canadian, anyway). I am not rally a fan of any of the others mentioned, although CC Revival are pretty good.

Each to his own then.  The Doors were way more important to rock music than Aerosmith.  I thought you said greatest and not just the one that's your favourite?


My point was that I initially thought it absurd that Aerosmith could call themselves that, but I was surprised to have such difficulty coming up with American bands I like better. I think it says something about the quality of American rock music compared to Britain. When I think rock bands, I immediately think of The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Dire Straits, Queen, etc.

America does have some great solo artists, though. Hendrix, Dylan, Alice Cooper, Springsteen, Zappa, Beefheart, Warren Zevon, etc. Maybe something to do with our individualistic nature.


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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:31
I really like that you mentioned Zevon. 

I listen to Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner every week.

As for which band came where? I could care less.

And The Band were (mostly) Canadian. One of my favorite musical groups, but not entirely a US rock band.


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He gave her his town house and his racing horses. Each meal she ate was a dozen courses. She had a million dollars worth of nickels and dimes. She sat around and counted them all a million times.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 19:45
Originally posted by thellama73

I don't think very highly of Aerosmith at all, but I'm hard pressed to think of another one, unless you count backing bands like the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Maybe Boston? I'm open to suggestion.
The Jimi Hendrix Experience were British, they just happened to have an American front man. Big smile
 
Not much of an expert on American music and I know 4/5ths of sod all about 70s americana but I would have listed bands from the 80s & 90s as well REM, Talking Heads (in the 80s), Pearl Jam, Nirvana, RCHP, Heart (in the 80s)...
 
Where America excell is in mainstream Metal - Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Megadeth, Machine Head, Type O Negative, Korn, Death, Faith No More, Anthrax, Fear Factory, etc.
 
But... The greatest American band is System Of A Down.


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 22:00
Logan, I would have offered Kansas, but several other choices were offered to you.

Say, is Fleetwood Mac British or American now?


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http://epignosis.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Listen to the new Epignosis album for free- it's good for your health


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 11:40
Originally posted by Epignosis

Logan, I would have offered Kansas, but several other choices were offered to you.

Say, is Fleetwood Mac British or American now?
 
It's been 50/50 for quite some time ... you know that already, though!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 11:48
Originally posted by moshkito



Say, is Fleetwood Mac British or American now?

 
It's been 50/50 for quite some time ... you know that already, though!
[/QUOTE]

Yep, and so is (what's left from) King Crimson, and Foreigner as well. 


Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 13:33

Same goes for Transatlantic I guess.



Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 15:34
Originally posted by Dean

But... The greatest American band is System Of A Down.



you're.... joking, right? please tell me you're joking...


as far as the best American bands it's definitely The Doors or Grateful Dead for me.


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http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/album/speak-to-me-breathe" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - unique, ambitious music with a wide range of influences and ideas.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 16:01
Originally posted by Dean


 
But... The greatest American band is System Of A Down.

I thought it was Green Day LOL

(but I like SOAD and I wouldn't feel bad if anybody suggests Serj Tankian for inclusion.


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 20:05
When thinking of great US bands, i think of Blue Cheer and Bloodrock, competition in heavy music, and of course Grand Funk, who were already mentioned

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"and what music unites, man should not take apart"--Helmut Koellen                               


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:13
Ok. I'll play this game

The greatest American band is without question

DREAM THEATER.

You want to talk about statistics Dream Theater have sold more than 10 million albums world wide. Highest grossing total for any progressive metal band on the planet and there is a good reason for it, and it's because they are a quality versatile band that has some of the strongest musicianship on planet earth. Nuff said.

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:31
Million albums? Beach Boys.

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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:33
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by progbethyname

More people like simple music. That demographic won't change for at least as long as I am alive On this planet earth
So if I kill you...? Wink


Killing me won't change why pop sells so much more than prog.
I know you wish it was that simple, but it isn't. Also, let's be clear

I DON'T LIKE THIS FACT AT ALL! Wish it weren't true.

-------------
I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:34
Originally posted by octopus-4

Million albums? Beach Boys.


Not prog.

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:36
Originally posted by presdoug

When thinking of great US bands, i think of Blue Cheer and Bloodrock, competition in heavy music, and of course Grand Funk, who were already mentioned



Blue Cheer are one of the pioneers of the hard rock/metal genre itself!! I have a ton of respect for them.

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 00:38
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by octopus-4

Million albums? Beach Boys.


Not prog.

I see them as proto for their last albums. Unfortunately Kansas sold probably less than DT but I don't know the statistics. Effectively, thinking to top selling American prog there's not very much to mention.


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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 03:17
I think there's no way anyone could seriously say Dream Theater are the greatest American band.

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http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/album/speak-to-me-breathe" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - unique, ambitious music with a wide range of influences and ideas.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 03:47
Originally posted by Sumdeus

I think there's no way anyone could seriously say Dream Theater are the greatest American band.
Agreed, career sales of 10 million, while being impressive, pale into insignificance compared to American bands like Boston, Journey, ZZ Top, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Green Day, Creed, Eagles, Guns & Roses, Bon Jovi etc. achieve that on a single album.

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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 04:16
Didn't anyone say Blue Oyster Cult?

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 05:38
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul


Originally posted by progbethyname

More people like simple music. That demographic won't change for at least as long as I am alive On this planet earth
So if I kill you...? Wink


Killing me won't change why pop sells so much more than prog.
I know you wish it was that simple, but it isn't. Also, let's be clear

I DON'T LIKE THIS FACT AT ALL! Wish it weren't true.

I don't actually care what sells how much, it was merely a very silly joke. I will happily continue to listen to and buy both 'pop' and 'prog' music, whatever that means.

Originally posted by Sumdeus

I think there's no way anyone could seriously say Dream Theater are the greatest American band.

I think there is, but there's no way I would ever agree. Not as long as there are such tremendous bands as the Doors, CSN and ZZ Top.


Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 09:17
Originally posted by Snow Dog

Didn't anyone say Blue Oyster Cult?


Ah, that is a good point. They are pretty great.


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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 19 2012 at 08:08
Originally posted by presdoug

When thinking of great US bands, i think of Blue Cheer and Bloodrock, competition in heavy music, and of course Grand Funk, who were already mentioned
 
Shhhhhhhh!!!!!
 
Wink
 
We can not name half known and unknown American bands no one has ever heard ... specially if they came out of the Fillmore and Monterey days ...
 
Embarrassed
 
Of course, you're right ... but then ... even mentioning Al Kooper or Paul Butterfield, Sugar Loaf, Ides of March, (heaven forbid!) Mason Profit ... and many others, around here, sends shivers up the progressive spine! And I haven't started on the SF scene, which was bigger than the midwest scene ... but I could add Sons of Champlin!


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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 19 2012 at 11:41
Originally posted by thellama73


Originally posted by rogerthat


Originally posted by thellama73

Zappa and Neil Young aren't bands (Neil Young is Canadian, anyway). I am not rally a fan of any of the others mentioned, although CC Revival are pretty good.


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Each to his own then.  The Doors were way more important to rock music than Aerosmith.  I thought you said greatest and not just the one that's your favourite?
My point was that I initially thought it absurd that Aerosmith could call themselves that, but I was surprised to have such difficulty coming up with American bands I like better. I think it says something about the quality of American rock music compared to Britain. When I think rock bands, I immediately think of The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Dire Straits, Queen, etc.America does have some great solo artists, though. Hendrix, Dylan, Alice Cooper, Springsteen, Zappa, Beefheart, Warren Zevon, etc. Maybe something to do with our individualistic nature.


Oh Dire Straights is great. Love the album BROTHERS IN ARMS. Mark Knopler is an incredible guitarist and a very accomplished one at that. :)

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 01:50
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Sumdeus

I think there's no way anyone could seriously say Dream Theater are the greatest American band.

Agreed, career sales of 10 million, while being impressive, pale into insignificance compared to American bands like Boston, Journey, ZZ Top, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Green Day, Creed, Eagles, Guns & Roses, Bon Jovi etc. achieve that on a single album.


Fine, but do any of those bands come close to the sheer skill and musicianship of Dream Theater??
No freakin' way. Boston is pretty awesome, but not Dream Theater awesome.

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I kneel to the alter of ARCAM.


Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 02:47
Originally posted by progbethyname

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Sumdeus

I think there's no way anyone could seriously say Dream Theater are the greatest American band.

Agreed, career sales of 10 million, while being impressive, pale into insignificance compared to American bands like Boston, Journey, ZZ Top, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Green Day, Creed, Eagles, Guns & Roses, Bon Jovi etc. achieve that on a single album.


Fine, but do any of those bands come close to the sheer skill and musicianship of Dream Theater??
No freakin' way. Boston is pretty awesome, but not Dream Theater awesome.
You're the one who brought up statistics as a criteria Tongue
 
How do you measure skill and musicianship and is that really an indication of "the greatest band in America"?
 
I would imagine popularity and influence are far more important.


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If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman


Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 03:55
I don't really care about how technically proficient musicians are at playing their instruments if I find their music completely boring. To me bands like The Doors were just as proficient in the context of their time and were much more inventive and revolutionary with their music.


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http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/album/speak-to-me-breathe" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - unique, ambitious music with a wide range of influences and ideas.


Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2013 at 12:48
Originally posted by Thandrus

Did a simple search in ProgArchives symphonic prog section to see which country had the most symphonic prog bands. See results below in the photo attached.

I was as amazed as some of you might get. The results proved wrong the most rooted prog misconception according to which UK was the center of symphonic prog. As you can see here, there are almost two times more symphonic prog bands in US than in UK. Germany has just as many symphonic prog bands as UK. Could what we've thought all this time be just a matter of exposure? Share your thoughts, please!

P.S. This doesn't even take into the account all the Italian prog bands, who were mostly of symphonic variety.

Let me see:

  1. The number of bands is not everything:
  2. The big six bands are
    1. King Crimson: Symphonic Debut (UK)
    2. Yes Symphonic (UK)
    3. Genesis Symphonic (UK)
    4. ELP: Symphonic (UK)
    5. Jethro Tull Folk (UK)
    6. Pink Floyd Psych/Space (UK)
  3. Most if the USA Symphopnic bands are post 70's, so in the 70's when the genre was young, UK wasc the center along with Italy, with the difference that most italian bands are one shot bands that released one album and vanished
  4. Most German bands are derivative in different degrees
  5. Italy has it's own genre.
So Yes, UK is the source and center of Symphonic.

Iván  

PD: Just in case I have heard at least one album of each and every band listed in Symphonic



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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 11 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by Snow Dog

It makes sense that The US have more. Much huger population equals more varieties of everything under the sun.


Huger? That better not be a jab at our weight.  Don't make us try to get up off this couch!


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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 11 2013 at 13:23
One more thing

Check how many bands claim to be influenced by Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull or ELP.

I calculate around 90%, if not more.

Now tell me, ¿How many bands claim to have been influenced by bands from other nations?

The percentage will be incredibly smaller




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Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: February 26 2013 at 11:41
Imaginary scenario:
 
How progressive rock might have developed without including the UK's bands (let's say, for example, that all the UK's psychedelic bands moved on to country rock by 1969, just like the US ones did)
 
1960s:
Miles Davis, Frank Zappa & Brian Wilson inspire a generation of US prog bands.
Daevid Allen, Konny Plank, & Christian Vander inspire a generation of European bands
 
1970s:
Jazz/Fusion rules in the US
Everyone else flies away to Planet Gong.
 
Which is pretty much what happened anyway! LOL
 


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rotten hound of the burnie crew


Posted By: SquonkHunter
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 06:35
Originally posted by presdoug

When thinking of great US bands, i think of Blue Cheer and Bloodrock, competition in heavy music, and of course Grand Funk, who were already mentioned


Growing up in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area in the early 70s, Bloodrock was a huge local favorite. Always nice to see hometown boys make good. Clap


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"You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..."



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