Close To The Edge or Red?
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91031
Printed Date: May 13 2024 at 05:14
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Topic: Close To The Edge or Red?
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Subject: Close To The Edge or Red?
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:23
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Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:27
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Red.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:28
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Edge ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Phasetek
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:35
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Close to The Edge... just an amzing album! |
Posted By: Chozal
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:41
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Although I prefer KC's sound especially around the Red era, CTTE has not a single weak moment, one of the very few albums that shines through every moment. Red has Providence. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Infinite-Progability-Drive/141225469388975" rel="nofollow - The Infinite Progability Drive , feeding you daily progressive/weird music for just a like <3 |
Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:42
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Red by miles. Just an observation, no offense: it seems you're comparing KC to everything out there wanting it to lose against something. I'm not sure if that's... really mature. Definitely not trying to start a fight or something. -------------  |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:43
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Red is great, CttE is a masterpiece
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:44
I like Providence better than any track on Close to the Edge. And I love Close to the Edge (not as the others do, but I appreciate it). ------------- |
Chozal wrote:Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:49
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When I hear Close to the edge - I get up When I hear Red - I get down ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Chozal
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:50
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Never thought I'd heard that in a lifetime Oo Actually never thought anyone could love this track (or The Mincer, for example, which kinda has imo the same status as Providence on a different album, that of a half-failed experimentation (to my ears) )
------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Infinite-Progability-Drive/141225469388975" rel="nofollow - The Infinite Progability Drive , feeding you daily progressive/weird music for just a like <3 |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:54
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Close to the Edge. Not the best album of all time, but excellent
Red ain't to my taste at all. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:55
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Red, if only because it contains "Starless." ------------- "I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...." |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 17:58
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Red has its flaws, as most KC albums do. CTTE knows no flaws. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:13
"one might even argue that not until Larks' Tongues In Aspic did Fripp find the stable formula for the band that would finally set it in a definite and unique niche of its own" |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:21
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^ This is just an opinion of one stupid-ass Russian who gave King Crimson 2 points out of 5 for the emotional resonance ... Faust 1 out of 5 for the resonance as well. I got some things to hang on that motherf$%ker.
That said, it's a tie, as far as "which album is the best of these two" goes.
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:22
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I would disagree. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:24
| ... about ... ? |
Posted By: Anthony
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:27
Just like you calling someone a stupid-ass and a MF is just your opinion and not a fact. You should become a politician in Russia, so you can send everyone who does not agree with you to Siberia. (I heard they've got some good Khatrus over there.) ------------- Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love (Introitus - The hand that feeds you) |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:28
My post seems strange seeing you posted just as i did. My post was referring to Prog2112 statement pertaining to KC.
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:30
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^ I figured. 
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:31
Calm down, many people have their opinion and you don't seem to respect it, there cannot be a double standard |
Posted By: Progmind
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:32
| gimme red |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:34
 ... people who trample other people's opinions. I remember that guy going hard on Nick Drake's Pink Moon to some unnecessary levels.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:35
| CTTE is note perfect but to me it almost completely lacks any human warmth, melancholy, pain or anger, emotions that the Red album brings out well. CTTE is also a bit too pretty and conservative in its approach for me to rate it over Red (not that I dislike it, it's a great album too). |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:41
Exactly, and I like to get up more.
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Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 18:53
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Red by a wide margin. ------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:10
As far as consistent sound, yes I agree; the Bruford/Wetton era was the first to have more than one album with a core line-up. But even the best KC albums always have something where I could say, "If it wasn't for _____, this album would be a perfect masterpiece." "The Power To Believe" might be their only album that I would call it a masterpiece, and flawless, now that I think about it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:11
Such a brave comment and/or statement. I just want people to double think their judgements |
Posted By: Chozal
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:17
I agree with you wholeheartedly. KC never did an album which outshone all the other ones - every disc of the Crimsonian corpus seems to contain the different pieces of their greatness, but you need more than one to fully grasp it. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Infinite-Progability-Drive/141225469388975" rel="nofollow - The Infinite Progability Drive , feeding you daily progressive/weird music for just a like <3 |
Posted By: kevin4peace
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:17
^This ------------- Nothing to say here. Nothing at all. Nothing is easy. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:19
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:25
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Love them both in their own special ways. :) But over the years I favor Red.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 19:57
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Both are great albums, but Yes' edges out Red for me. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:14
I'll vote and my vote goes to Close To The Edge what are KC trying to do in Providence, I don't get it not another instrumental experiment,jeesh COMPOSITION>IMPROVISATION ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:15
you don't listen to much Grateful Dead, do you? ------------- http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:16
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Nobody listens to the Grateful Dead.
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Posted By: Mr. Maestro
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:17
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I feel like a weirdo. Am I the only person in the world who thinks "Providence" is brilliant? ------------- "I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...." |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:19
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:22
Yeah, and Kenny G is better than Sonny Rollins. Besides, Providence is not all there's to Red, not nearly.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:23
I dislike Providence more than anything on either album. And the only song from Red I like more than the song I like the least from CttE is Starless (though I would be hard pressed to say which I like best, CttE, And You And I, or Starless itself). However, in the end I vote CttE, indeed it's great from beginning to end. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:25
m I the only one who thinks One More Red Nightmare is brillliant? People always talk about the title track and Starless (which is admittedly amazing) but I never hear much talk about that one. It's one of my all time favorite Crimson tracks. -------------
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:27
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:40
One More Red Nightmare is the most played track on the album.  ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Fox On The Rocks
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 20:43
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Close To The Edge ------------- 
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 21:27
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Close to the Edge.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 22:05
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Close to the Edge, though Red is very close. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 00:17
Agreed. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 00:41
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Red is one of the best Crimson's albums. CTTE is one of the best albums at all. ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 01:51
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Red
------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 01:54
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Live versions of CttE would beat Red. But otherwise I prefer Red. Yes is just to sterile in the studio.
------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 02:10
:( still, i think it is simply ridiculous to say "composition>improvisation". imo the best compositions usually involve improvisation to a certain degree, and I also like a lot of music that is composed through improvisation itself... ------------- http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 02:38
Close to the Edge is the only album I know of where I would not change a thing if I could. The only track on Red that reaches the same level of perennial awesomeness is "Starless". There are other good tracks on it, but I always found it a bit inconsistent.
Not one of my favorite Crimson tracks, but I do think it's great. The lyrics are pretty awkward though.
I agree that it's an over-generalization to say that composition is always better than improvisation, but especially in the case of King Crimson I usually find their completely improvised pieces much less interesting than the ones that involve some kind of composition. I'd go as far as saying that "We'll Let You Know" and "Starless and Bible Black" kinda stink ("Providence" is better). On the other hand, LTIA1 is one of my favorite King Crimson tracks, even though it involves a large amount of improvisation. But what sets it apart is that this is planned improvisation. It revolves around a set of pre-composed themes and it's clearly structured. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 02:47
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Red is one of the better KC albums, but this is no contest. Close to the Edge. ------------- 
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Posted By: DiamondDog
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 03:08
| Yes - Close to the Edge; can't see Red in the same equation |
Posted By: antonyus
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 03:41
| edge |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 07:27
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There's no disputing the brilliance of CTTE but I probably enjoy Red a little more. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 08:11
| I do prefer to listen to Red. That one is like getting hit in the head with a brick over and over musically - only with cool riffs and melodies and jazzy excursions between the mashed flesh and bleeding orifices. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 09:03
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KC ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 09:17
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My finger moved so fast to click the bottom one that I pulled an index finger muscle....... -------------   
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 10:30
Mine too. Maybe if there was no title track, I'd still take Red over CTTE for this one. Incredible work from both Bruford and McDonald, especially. |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 11:02
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Close to the Edge ------------- Prog On! |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 17:44
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This is the first X vs Y poll in which I'm wan't immediately certain who to vote for (and wish there were Both/Neither button). Both are the pinnacle creation by the apex "prog" bands of the early '70s. If the victory were to be awarded by meticulous counting the points scored in different categories, I'd probably have to go for CTTE. But since Red is a little more ground-breaking, after much deliberation, the vote goes to ...
RED |
Posted By: Eria Tarka
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 18:36
| Close... to... the... Edge... |
Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 16:36
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Red. What's wrong with Providence? Better than most of the tracks, improvs or not, on SaBB, IMO. -------------  
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Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 17:24
| I much prefer Red. |
Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 17:48
Providence > Red (title track) ------------- |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 14 2012 at 18:05
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"Providence" is the "Moonchild" of the album. The elongated drivel that keeps me from handing the album five stars. Funny story: I was leaving the parking lot from the school where I teach, having forgotten that Red was live in the CD player. All of a sudden I heard this violin. I had no AC in the car, so the windows were down. My eyes flew all over campus trying to discern the location of that strange violin that sounded so close. Eventually, I realized I am dumb. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 04:32
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am I the only one that loves Moonchild?
------------- http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 09:13
No your not. We are actually a small group of weird people.
Yes it is. And I dare say it's my favorite track on Red! |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 15 2012 at 09:21
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 16 2012 at 02:51
| Probably the two best prog albums ever made. I have to vote CTTE but Red beats just about everything else. |
Posted By: Aquiring the Taste
Date Posted: December 16 2012 at 03:11
No ------------- Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905 |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: December 16 2012 at 04:20
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Red is the stronger style (heavy prog). Close is the stronger album. Combine these two and you get the ultimate. ------------- 
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Posted By: The-time-is-now
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 06:26
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Close to the edge.
-------------  One of my best achievements in life was to find this picture :D |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 06:37
| Very tough call but I had to vote for CTTE, a (prog) textbook example of a flawless album. |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 17 2012 at 21:39
How about this COMPLEX Composition>Improvisation That's what I iniltially meant, f**k  ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 00:42
^ What are you, having a menopause?! Take a chill pill, Mrs. Paffnuccio! 
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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 01:36
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Red, if only for "Starless" alone. Never has the end of the world sounded more beautiful than that one track. For the record, I like "Providence". Yes, it's the weakest track on the album, but even that's a keeper. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: akaBona
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 04:48
| nowadays it's probably Red, but CttE had extremely huge impact to me when it was released and it still is one of my life's big albums. CttE got my vote ... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 09:14
And improvisation cannot be complex? Should I seriously choose a set of, say, Spocks Beard over Barbara Dennerlein or Bela Fleck? Why on earth? Apart from all this, complexity is not everything in music and it is also a very broad based concept, nothing to be pigeon-holed in the way you are attempting to. |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 11:51
But I certainly do. Besides, Terrapin Station (the song) is good piece of "prog", if judged by its complexity, duration and the lyrics. |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 13:07
Improvisation is merely spontaneous composition. Ergo, composition (complex or not) cannot be inherently greater than improvisation. To the thread topic...although I love both, Close to the Edge is pretty close to untouchable. It deserves its top spot in our top 100 albums list, imo (even though its not my personal favorite). ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 13:15
| I prefer KC to Yes but prefer CTTE (IMO by far the best Yes album) to Red (just not a big fan of the heavy prog sound) |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 18 2012 at 18:31
Yes, good point. Besides even Yes apparently used to create their music through jam sessions so what he is referring to is simply the difference between organized and linear music and more chaotic and less linear music on the other hand.
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Posted By: JeanFrame
Date Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:23
| Close to the edge is the one for me |
Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: December 19 2012 at 14:04
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:28
Complex composition is well thought-out while improv loses any genuine feel its just pussyfooting and it doesn't go anywhere,sorry I much rather prefer something like The Cinema Show over say a Moonchild. Why? It's well crafted and complex and well thoughtout while Moonchild is a waste of time ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:33
Er, what?? Improv brings about a vital human element in the music as also an element of surprise/chance. But I guess you perhaps love listening to Celine Dion play pre recorded tracks while she pretends to perform live.  I mean, well thought composition (and by implication, its immaculate reproduction) is better than improv, right? And, besides, what are you doing listening to prog, which is based on rock and which in turn is based on blues? Blues has always been about flawed spontaneity and not calculated precision. |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:42
Wait wait wait I can't listen to Prog just because of what I said, give me a break!!!!! I'm so sorry if I'm making you rethink everything about King Crimson jeesh  ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:44
I hate to ask this question but how old are you? And what at all do you know about the history of rock music? If any school teaches you that improvisation in rock is nonsense, you need to find a different one asap....but I doubt they would, so stop fibbing.
You flatter yourself way, way too much. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:47
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:52
I am exactly 23 years of age I'm sorry that Crimson doesn't appeal to me we all have some artists that don't appeal to us, I don't know why you can't see that ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:53
And your dislike for KC automatically implies that composition is better than improvisation? How? Explain your statements...don't just make them and run for shelter under the "it's my opinion" clause. |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:54
No no you just don't let others have a stab/take on an artist, I gotta go back to reading I don't want to cause anything bad, damn it!! ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 00:58
You are absolutely entitled to have your 'take' on any artist as long as you don't trample on others and mock them...as you did to Gandalff saying that KC make him headbang and as long as you don't pass off your opinions as objective statements which you have been doing a lot on this and many other threads. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 01:24
I can give you hundred oposite examples of incredible imrovised songs vs. sh*ty prog songs, does it mean that I think improvisation is better than studio tracks? No. If you don't like improvised stuff that's ok, I respect that, there are people who can't listen to live concerts that's ok too. Don't mix your personal tastes with facts. I happen to love Moonchild, I don't know I just love it. Am I wrong? Do I like crapy music? (Please don't answer that) |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 07:00
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My favourite two albums of all times. Voted for Red.
------------- http://theprogressiveweb.blogspot.de" rel="nofollow - Visit me in Second Life to talk about music. |
Posted By: Stool Man
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 09:18
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I've never heard either. Heard some of both, sure, but not nearly enough to vote. ------------- rotten hound of the burnie crew |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 10:05
 The former piece (shown in sheet music) is one of the most complex compositions ever written. It is also one of the worst. The second piece (the video) was entirely improvised by Johann Sebastian Bach (that's how Fantasias were composed; the composer would make something up on the spot, and then write the whole thing down). It's a great piece of Baroque music. Is Bach "pussyfooting" here? Would you disagree that his improvised piece is far superior to many of today's compositions? ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: December 20 2012 at 12:21
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Now I want to hear a performance of the former piece.
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