And so I want to know - how much relationship is there between a country's prog and their own classical and folk music traditions (I'm thinking mostly of Europe here, so I'm leaving out jazz/ blues and the US)? And if you like one, do you find that you usually like the other? That assumes that there is a strong relationship, but it seems that relationships varies a lot depending on the country. Musicians from some countries are quite open to outside influences (scandinavian countries, for example) and, perhaps without strong traditions of their own, are relatively free to experiment, mix and match, etc. The result is often exciting music. Other countries, like Austria, have very strong classical music traditions and I don't even know if they have any prog bands at all!  I mean, that seems to be the conservative extreme there.

German and Italian prog bands write music that to me reflects their country's  classical and folk traditions. But the French don't seem to, at least not that I've heard. I'd be interested to know if I am wrong, because I love French classical music but not their prog. In most cases, however, if I like one, I like the other.

And then there is the UK. :) The grand masters of prog don't have the classical tradition to draw upon compared to countries on the continent. But they absorbed everything over the eons and have a harmonic sensibility that possibly they got from the French??? Is that why I love French classical music and UK prog??  

Maybe this is why French prog never developed along the same lines out of fear that others would accuse it of sounding like the UK.. :)

aldri7

Not quite true. That is why we have a search facility.

There is!

Anglagard, Anektoten, Kaipa, Sinkadus, The Flower Kings, Samla 

there is something common in harmony of Swedish prog bands, even if music is different.

It could be come from folk influence

also, Italian prog is somewhat special

Snowdog,  yes I did try searching on this but without keywords that would really stand out, I didn't get very far..

One might expect that there might be a similarity in how German and Scandinavian prog sounds. I base this on the fact that they share a lot of cultural heritage, ethnic ties etc. But they don't sound anything alike. Sumdeus mentioned that the Germans with Krautrock were consciously trying to develop a style they could call their own, something that no one could accuse of sounding like the Brits or anyone else. I have always felt that that is true also. While on the other hand, the Scandinavians don't seem to have this issue. They borrow liberally from the UK and US while adding to their own traditions. I have always had an extremely high regard for the Scandinavians (Terje Rypdal was enormous  with me) because of how accepting they are of dissonances and complexity in their prog and jazz, something that really sets them apart from the Germans. So overall Krautrock and Scandinavian (OK, Swedish I'm thinking mostly) prog represent opposite poles from the standpoint of simplicity vs complexity. With Krautrock you get a stripped down prog and its noteworthy to me that the Germans have gone down this path before, rejecting atonal Viennese classical music for example a hundred years ago in favor of a more direct and simple music more popular with the masses. It is tempting to suggest that the Germans may have never felt totally comfortable with trends towards increasing harmonic complexity in music, owing to the possibility that it threatened to some extent their own heritage (Bach, Hayden, Handel, Beethoven, Wagner etc).  Also, a lot of the characteristics of Krautrock (repetitive motifs etc) can be found in German progressive electronic music (tangerine dream, etc) also.

And i guess I also wasn't aware that "Kraut" and "Krautrock" are terms that arose first in Britain and are somewhat derogatory in origin. The term "kraut" was first used around the time of WWI. The German's don't use that term to describe themselves, and so I wonder if they have another term for their own music and did they eventually accept "Krautrock" or do they see this as a put down. I would think it would not still get used if there were too many complaints :)

And as for the French. The poor French.:)  I always felt that maybe they were caught flat footed when the whole rock thing evolved in the 60's. It was all coming from the UK across the channel, and with their natural inclination to not want to be seen as copying anything the Brits do, they were left to flounder which they did. And so while Germany evolved their own prog school with a fairly coherent style, Zeuhl music is a hodgepodge - bizarre, jazzy, atonal, furious at times, but often sounding not much more like someone is just angry about having been left in the dust by the Americans and Brits when they have such a glorious musical heritage of their own (which curiously they don't tap into).  And listed among the French Zeuhl bands are a fair number of Japanese ones - why does this all sound sort of anarchic and slightly cheesy to me while the Scandinavians made really impressive use of jazz influences? I hope I don't insult any fans of french prog, but I guess I still don't quite get it..(OK, I like magma and also find Eider Stellaire and Potemkine to be quite good). But my overall impression of the French is that maybe at no time was there a single individual or band with the right vision and respect for their history to guide them in a unique direction suitable to French culture as a whole. Zeuhl feels like subversive, jazzy music from the underground with quirky atonal qualities having artistic pretentions. Magma founder Christian Vender drew inspiration from Coltraine and was the son of a jazz musician. That Magma went on to lead future generations of French proggers rather than a band more grounded in french culture and history is something I feel is unfortunate...

aldri7

Well I don't think we had a topic like this. That wasn't my point. No worries.

Few examples:

Devetka - based on the Macedonian folk song "So maki sum se rodila"

Aber dojde donke - based on the folk song with the same name

Bistra voda - based on a folk song with a similar title, "Da sum bistra voda"

I hope I don't offend other people from the Balkans by claiming these songs are Macedonian, I could be wrong as they could be Bulgarian or Serbian.

 

The quirky, slightly irritating, classic "prog" vocal style (Peter Gabriel, ian anderson, Roger Chapman, Cyrus)

is distinctly British (or British Isles) and did this arise from a folk tradition? In any case, I sense that in other countries, this style was not that well accepted. US bands often adapted well to it and copied it, but on the continent, especially in Germany and Italy perhaps, fans never really dug it and prog vocalists in those countries didn't feel any compulsion to imitate that style. Might they actually have had a derogatory attitude towards classic UK prog vocalists?

And so how/why did that vocal style arise and gain acceptance in the UK but not on the continent? A folk tradition? (seems likely as the themes often explored by those bands are mystical and folk related (fairies, elves, gnomes, enchanted forests, etc)

aldri7

Further, those bands were huge on the continent, in the case of Genesis before they were in Britain.

About French prog, Zeuhl apart, you can find some good psych/space and symphonic prog, and with French vocals but from Canada there's an absolute masterpiece like this

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3160" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=3160

I don't find it irritating either, but I did at first.....it was an acquired taste for me...

thanks for correcting me on the Englsh vs British..

aldri7

It wasn't a correction, but an observation, but you are very welcome, my dear chap

The Brit prog bands didn't get much initial exposure on radio so they developed a highly theatrical approach to help project what they were doing and gain attention I think. I gather the early reviews of Genesis were not always that favourable so I'm not sure they achieved this universal acceptance that you imagine. The first time that any of their albums charted anywhere was in fact Italy and not Britain so I don't there could have been that much resistance from that country to the vocal style.

BTW I always assumed the quintessential British/English prog vocalist to be Greg Lake anyway.

 

 

It's not too hard, really.

 

You take the movies from the time in those countries, the writers in those countries, and then the painters ... and you can see who is progressive or not.

 

German -- it's clearly defined in Edgar Froese's words in the Krautrock special ... and it also went for film, theater and art.

 

French -- Probably more history minded and such, in general any experimental and progressive out of that country was either like ... Heldon ... or Ange ... but the problem is ... how do you rate Alan Stivell, from Brittany? ... he's so varied and at times progressive, to the point of embarassing folks that never heard the mixes he has!

 

Italy -- I always though more classical music minded, even groups that took directly, classical music concepts and did them in rock instruments ... many groups fit this spot. However, it is easy to say that Banco, and Le Orme, did not exactly follow this route ... and still got it done, but I think they were too well defined to not know what they were doing.

 

Spain -- in the 70's the bands I heard were quite Yes, Supertramp sort of blends, with the usual amount of spanish guitar to show the difference. Funny thing, Carmen, was not from Spain. They were from LA, and many times they were more interesting as "spanish music" than the more traditional folks.

 

England -- I will not take a lot away from the english, except that they went ahead, and did not worry about what it was. And it goes back the tne mid-psych days and into the "beat" days ... something that is still not quite clear and studied as an important art movement that helped create many bands. But London, also has, some of the best theater in the world, and they even used electric bands, and Gryphon is a perfect example of a "progressive" band, that probably would not be ... if we unplugged the instruments! But it was good and then some.

 

I'm not as well versed on Eartern Europe to discuss, or Northern Europe. I am in film, and some theater, but not music, surprisingly enough.

 

But there are some odditties ... Egberto Gismonti is considered "jazz" and should be "progressive folk" when he is solo and alone on piano or guitars. Instead his early works have an amazing combination of Jan Garbarek, and Charlie Haden to create some intensely beautiful stuff that would be "progressive jazz" but no one can find a way to describe that ... and of course, to say that Brazil did not have "progressive" music is insane ... ! Or Argentina, but the subtleties I am not clear or familiar with.

 

One last one ... there was a film called "Bitter Sugar" that came from Cuba ... in that film there was a lot of music including a couple of things that were definitly progressive. Not all music in Cuba is the traditional, tiresome stuff ... there is more there than meets the eye!

 

Sorry for the generalizations ... hard to discuss these things out of context ... if you add the film makers, the artists and the writers to the country and jigger them really good, you know right away that you have a very strong "artistic" scene, that developed ... and as such the USA, England, Germany and France ... were at the forefront of it, and Tokyo joined up a bit later in full force! It's really hard to say that France's music was not progressive or experimental when some of their writers, and film makers were by VERY FAR the most experimental and innovative folks around during the 60's and 70's ... and what was seen in film, could also be seen in other arts.

could just say Zheul could just be, for argument's sake,  a superfluous title for French prog, so all Zheul bands are

French prog bands.   Per capita, what countries have the most prog bands? Isn't France as

large as Germany and Britain? My favorite German bands are Neu, Novalis, Hoederlin, and 

Cluster, much of the other German stuff for me is a little too "wild."  But France had the YeYe

For instance, if you're exploring the Italian scene it's worth being aware that Genesis and Van der Graaf Generator were - huge, huge, huuuuuuuge there. They had massive riots break out at VdGG concerts, for instance, and Genesis were a big deal in Italy well before they achieved comparable popularity in the UK. It's unquestionable that there was a fertile scene bubbling away there even before the Charisma tours of the early 1970s (must be about 1970-1971 because the insanity of the Italian tour contributed to VdGG's first breakup), but the English acts the Italians embraced - and Genesis/VdGG in particular - catalysed the Italian scene enormously, and I'm convinced it was one of the key factors in inspiring the massive boom in Italian prog acts putting out albums in 1972-1973.

Meanwhile, Bo Hansson was doing his Lord of the Rings album and would eventually get it published in the UK via Charisma, and a bit later ELP helped to put out English versions of Banco and PFM albums for the UK and US market. It's all interconnected...

 

Pulsar (a French band) draw influences from Pink Floyd and King Crimson while Ange are influenced by the sound of Genesis and K.C. Both bands have a great originality to their style of writing. It's amazing to me how they managed to pull that off in the real world! Goblin ...from Italy have a direct influence of ELP/Genesis within their sound yet have a much darker structure musically than both of those bands stylistically based on their constant interplay between guitar and keyboards interchanging or reversing methods of playing the "Devil's interval".

 

Rio bands like Univers Zero and Art Zoyd use the same formula yet it is based more so around the style of Avant-Garde composition derived from the 20th century. Which again...when I mention the "Devil's Interval"...I am making reference to tri-tones that they re-construct in a thousand ways, never totally heard before by those who were K.C. fans in the 70's, but more likely to have been performed first by string quartets of the 50's and through the music of John Cage, George Crumb, and many other greats. Nevertheless all cemented together to form a new inventive prog style of writing. A style that is evident (only in sections), on "Piece of Mind" by Curved Air.

 

Folk music is more evident in the style of French prog bands to me than the German experimental Krautrock ..however there are exceptions to that rule. Conventum (from Canada) and Harmonium seemed to have less influences from other's who were on the prog scene before them ..unless they were crafty enough just to cover it up...or maybe the music simply fell into place naturally and nothing was ever said between members of those bands just as nothing was hardly said when YES wrote Fragile. A telepathic experience where everything was created during the moment and pieced together between band members without too much verbal communication. Their minds could have been wiped clean of anything particular they experienced on that day and the notes entered their minds, they played it, it was fitting and bingo .."Southside of the Sky" was written or they could have came up with a signature line because they did in fact have a specific person, place , or thing on their mind. Nothing is an exact science when writing however ethnic, classical, folk influences you heard as a child before attending music college or even just formal training is planted in your mind...so therefore because you are human , you could delude yourself into believing that you wrote it. A question unanswered in most cases and left to the Gods...whoever they might be...either cosmic muffin or whatever you prefer that delusional energy level to be. Some kind of spiritual energy does channel through musicians and they create some of the most original music in history because of it...yet the musician has no control over it, doesn't care to define it as anything other than human growth of predictability and may find the topic farce. But according to the evidence of what has been composed in the past..there is something out there to the extent of the unknown which is a force that musicians connect with. Very much like Gnosis ..where upon you may feel something and not have an explanation for it. 

 

I love that band too!

I don't know them very well, but the albums from Le Cimetière des Arlequins to Guet-Apens should be worth a number of tries at least. Anyway, their last album, Moyen-Âge, is a rock solid in my book, but it is not widely acclaimed here on PA.

My first impression of this website is that there is an amazing base of knowledge here. I'm from the US and my knowledge of European prog and jazz is nowhere on the level of some of you.  I knew this when I started the thread - that I was probably going to find myself in over my head very quickly. But the great thing is this - I want to learn more, and thankfully you all have responded in ways that are perfect. I mean, I wanted to learn more about French prog, to get past my impasse and somewhat negative attitude there, and now you have given me the names of some bands to consider which I will do. Same goes for some other countries too. And so I hope to go out and do some more listening and then get back with some impressions.

My comment about UK vocalists drew a small amount of fire which is OK.  I'm not surprised at that.  And I think that my impression that these vocalists might not have been that popular on the continent (especially Germany and Italy) is based on what seems to be a lack of imitators and nothing more. Imitation is flattery.....

And as for Greg Lake being the quintessential prog vocalist......I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I might ask you to define "quintessential" and "prog".......:) 

aldri7

Smallcreep's day isn't about an elf, too.

 

Funny thing ... guess where "database" comes in, first and importantly ... in a discussion such as this ... by taking "away" the separate nationalities.

 

Unffortunately, ALL music is so tied and related to its culture and the differences are what music history has been about for over 500 years. I have always thought that the stick, and the time keeping (fabulously shown to us with Salieri in a movie!) ... is a perfect example of how the upper class, does not want music to be brought down to the "public", and that "discipline" (or "timing") is important to ... keep control of the masses ... and remember that this was 350 years ago!

 

I know it's a subliminal type message, but maybe that is the reason I hate to see a drummer wasted to satisfy a time-keeping requirement, that is a part of "popular music" that has ALWAYS been thought of as "uneducated" music!

 

TO ME ... a lot of this "progressive music" ... is just about this ... showing that even other folks that are not necessarily a part of the "establishment" are also great musicians that can create outstanding work, thus my reasons for always making fun of the upper crust and the lower crust as well ... because sometimes the idea of just fighting for figthing's sakes and someone else collects the money ... is my idea of ripping off, and manipulating folks!  Which religion is next?

As I read this, I thought about the military and pictured soldiers marching to a strict beat. I never really thought about that before with respects to music and the upper and lower class. Uniforms helped too..:) You know, I suppose there was a time in our not too distant past when the only music with drums and a strict beat was marching music (fife and drums, etc)   And from there, we evolved and drums became standard in dance music as well. 

And so I googled this up. From the 16th to 19th century, military units usually had a drum corp which were used to aid troop movements in the field. it was also called "field music". And from there, marching bands, marching music etc evolved. And so to the aristocratic class, you can easily see how drums came to have an important role in their scheme of things - it was used to keep others in line.

And then throw in the fact that drums and drumming has a long history of practice in less developed countries - Africa, Asia, South America. So to the upper class, drumming probably at some point (19th century maybe during the global expansion) came to be associated with tribal cultures, uneducated masses to be controlled etc. And the first use of drums in western culture for dancing - (Strauss wrote waltzes but didn't score them for base drum..:)) - I don't know. Anyone? Was that a black influence in America or were they doing it before then? I kind of wish I had a time machine and I could go back to about 1910 or so, when Professer Hill in the Music Man was railing against ragtime..

Also, consider the evolution of the drug culture in western society which probably sort of paralleled the rise of dancing to the beat, jazz, etc. and then rock.

OK, well, I guess I'm going to relate this to what I feel about Zeuhl music in France where I mentioned that it seemed sort of subversive and jazzy - something that might not to be too popular with the more conservative upper class French. But now do you think that a lot of prog is essentially poorer folks wanting to impress the upper crust with their musical abilities? Them wanting to show that they are more than just slaves to a drum beat? I see proggers as genuinely having a preference for more complex, more "classical" or traditional sounding contemporary music. In my case, I grew up classically trained in piano. We didn't listen to jazz or blues in my house. I listened to a mix of classical music and broadway music as a kid. I liked Faure, Debussy, Romanian composers. The first "popular" song I ever heard that I really liked was ironically called "Classical Gas" which came out in 1968. Remember that one? :)The very name "Classical Gas" suggested a melding of contemporary and traditional values right there, very proggy in spirit, no? :) But its interesting because I also recall strains in the sixties with my parents, specifically over music, and how I wanted my folks to like "Yes" - I thought that it was "classical" enough that they might like it. In other words, prog was a way for me to bridge a gap, to compromise I guess, and I didn't want the old folks to lump me with those "disrespectful punks" who listened to rock music. I did genuinely like Yes and not the Stones, and so it wasn't faking it on my part. But they were wondering if they had brought me up right, while I was saying - "but I like Yes, Mom!" Doesn't that show you I'm OK?

Ah "yes", the memories........the electric piano I bought one year that I almost had to hide from my Dad......

Well, I didn't mean to take this off topic, but getting back to prog by country - the countries in Europe with particularly strong classical music traditions like Austria and France - now I can see these going one of two routes in the 70's. Back then, everything (musically speaking) was eroding in the eyes of the establishment. But there were still lots of kids growing up in both those countries that were classically trained, but just not very inclined to continue in that tradition. Perfect for prog then, you say? Jan Hammer and Jean luc Ponty are two musicians that come to mind. And they weren't going to just sit back and join a typical rock band either - their ears wanted more. But they could have just stayed in their respective countries and lead an effort to forge a prog style steeped in their own country's traditions. They didn't, though - they gravitated west and into jazz, not into "austrian" symphonic prog or "French" symphonic prog. If I had been in their shoes, I might have been tempted to do it differently, but it was maybe a case of if you can't beat them, join them. Probably they did not see any future in an indigenous prog (with non english lyrics), and saw much bigger bucks and more receptive audiences elsewhere. I know I was plucking my money down to hear them anyway, not some obscure prog band from an eastern european country with no label or distribution or marketing outside of their borders. But even without the infrastructure, its not entirely clear to me why eventually, a prog to rival UK prog (I'm talking symphonic prog here) never really developed in these countries. The skills are there. I know that musical genius resides in Vienna, Moscow, Budapest, Paris, etc. And the taste for classical music is there also. So one might have thought that prog would had been the perfect compromise for a country with a strong classical tradition. From what has been written previousy in this thread, I know that UK prog was popular on the continent. Was that enough to satisfy those kids there? Did few feel a need then to take on the challenge of writing an equally exciting prog based on the culture and traditions of their respective countries? Or are my ears biased and they DID try, but I just didn't like it as much (I do tend to favor dissonance, modes, 11th and 13th chords, etc vs simple major/minor. Thats whats "exciting" to me, plus good compositional skills)? Just to give you an example of what I mean from my limited time here - I really like After Crying's "Welcome on Board". Thats what I'm talking about - its to me an exciting, non UK, perhaps uniquely Hungarian version of prog. But to sort of sum this up (man, I've written a book here..), classical music evolved and reached its highest development on the continent, not the UK. But for prog, the reverse is true. And so I guess it was never really intuitively obvious to me that it should have happened that way. That means that if its Russian, its Shostakovich or Prokofiev that does it for me, not a prog band from there,  but if on the other hand its from the UK, I'll take Genesis or Yes, not something classical written earlier (Vaughn-Williams is a good one though)..

It is true though, music knows no borders, and radio penetrates hearts and minds in a way that no human can. I try to imagine what it might have been like growing up in Eastern Europe 50 years ago. The media is from where you get all of your information about the outside world, and it can cause young minds to dream.  And In the 60's  and 70's rock music was a new media - it used cutting edge technologies, recording techniques, and required companies willing to invest in those technologies and techniques. That technology and infrastructure was best developed in the west (UK, US, etc)  where in addition there were already large audiences receptive to jazz and blues and hence big bucks to be made. Probably that made the difference, and maybe why Jean luc Ponty and Jan Hammer, etc chose the path that they did...

From soggy Oregon, USA....far, far from european soil, but searching for enlightenment from my fellow proggers...:)

aldri7

I'm going to quote myself here - because I think I may have answered my own question.

That country's with strong classical music traditions don't have better prog is maybe because they simply don't need it. Why would you need a substitute when you can have the real thing? Prog to many is really a rejection of standard classical music - I mean, it honors it  compared to rock'n roll, but is also says "I want to substitute a music that speaks to me more directly, uses more contemporary instruments, etc" i.e "I like classical music but its not my primary language and culture so I want to remake it in my own image". But the traditionalists would have no interest in that. They would say "if you want to make sophisticated music, why not just score it for an orchestra? So I would think in those countries that maybe too many would see prog as, at best, a cheap substitute, or, at worst, a clumsy attempt from a different part of society to challenge the status quo, to say "we can do it too, and sell even more albums than you".  And would the most musically gifted in those countries feel that writing for a prog band instead of an orchestra or other ensemble would be a waste of their precious talent? Maybe. This would tend to syphon off talent and water down the prog. So I'm glad then that there is great prog out there and countries where it has broad support from all levels of society.

aldri7

Kudo's.....

If I had to give up one, classical, jazz or rock (prog, folk, etc) it would break my heart. Each kind of represents a different aspect of my life, and parting with any one of them would be like slicing a part of me off. No classical music aficionado could relate as I'm sure you would agree...

But I actually sort of found my way to rock through prog, not the other way around. Its kind of weird, but prog is what made other rock more acceptable to me. I really was more pop and classical oriented when I was a teenager. At times i felt pretty isolated from my peers...:)

aldri7

In the USA, I've noticed that many of our prog bands seem to "ape" Yes overall....including Starcastle (who were friends of mine), Glass Hammer and numerous others.  Very irritating, although sometimes they pull off something that is genuinely innovative.  GH's newest is quite good and not as derivative.  

However, we Yanks do have many very good jazz-rock fusion outfits, and seem to make very good contributions to this genre. Chick Corea and his band's many offshoots (Stanley Clarke, Al Dimeola etc.) comes to mind.  

It's not that we lack the talent, but we don't have good English sensibilities!  Right, Laz?  

prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,

and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 

thank you..

Since I started this thread, I've found some French prog that I like. I think there were two bands, but I can't remember the name of one now. The other is "Lord of Mushrooms" which is a pretty interesting band to me. Its prog metal but with more adventurous harmonies and some neo prog influences (or was it porcupine tree?).

I would really like prog metal better if they explored darker harmonies more. "The missing Link" and "Circles on the Water" by Lord of Mushrooms get into that realm a little. Prog metal should be fertile ground for diminished scale harmonies or shifting minors etc. It would suit the subject matter if its more gothic anyway. So, hats off to Lord of Mushrooms for not only elevating my attitude towards prog metal but also French prog in general.

aldri7

Back in 1970 or so, I think there were a lot of people, myself included, who were disinterested in the popular music that was coming out at the time. I really was looking for an alternative to bluesy rock which was all the rage then. And so along comes "Yes" and it was like the perfect answer to all my prayers. 

Yes and Genesis, etc at the time tapped into something,  a desperate need I think - I mean there must have been lots of people like me who were dissatisfied and not buying Jimi Hendrix albums. 

I'm listening to "Lord of Mushrooms" as I write this (getting back to my earlier post). Man, these guys go way beyond prog metal where they are listed here. I'd suggest a different category for them, maybe eclectic prog or heavy prog. I don't know, but its just that guys are going to miss some great music if they pass over prog metal on their way to other categories!

And now,  I am going to make what is probably a pretty ridiculous assertion. I hope you will pardon me anyway but I have this strange need  to be able to find some French prog that pays homage to French classical music. I guess its because I like French classical music so much (it was played in my house a lot when I was a kid growing up)...

And so, at about the 2:00 minute mark in Lord of the Mushroom's "Warmth in the Wilderness", the melody ascends and goes through several unexpected chord changes as it climbs to a "B". And when I first heard it, I immediately flashed back to Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe" which doesn't sound anything like this really, but at the same time  - there is this ascending passage there also right before the return to the main theme which also twists through a series of unexpected chord changes and.........could it be......?  Why would I have flashed back to Ravel? But that I did that really gets me admiring this band, whether or not they were consciously thinking of Ravel or maybe they don't know squat about Ravel. :)  I haven't a clue, but its fun doing this kind of detective work anyway..

And I love having Spotify now on my computer. :) I can call up Daphnis et Chloe and play it alongside Lord of Mushrooms at the click of a mouse......bliss....and the passage I referred to in Ravel comes at about the 2:45 mark compared to the 2:00 mark for "Warmth in the Wilderness". Given this version of Daphnis et Chloe is played on the slow side, then the two passages occur at about the same point in the music. And to put the icing on the cake, Ravel's passage also ascends to a "B" !!

aldri7

Anyway, I find some of the South American/Portuguese prog bands to have a similar quality to them as found in the RPI scene from around the same time, which translates into the start 70s or something to that effect.

Here's Quarteto 1111, which I absolutely adore. It wasn't until I looked the album up on PA I found out about it not being an RPI release:

I took a instant liking to Dan Ar Braz so thank for the recommendation. There is this mix of fusion almost or smooth jazz (acoustic alchemy) with celtic music which I liked a lot. More listening needed here :) They are not listed here, but its not really prog. THis is the type of band I NEVER would have found on my own :) So thanks to the forums....

aldri7

NebelNest from France are outstanding, look into them!   http://nebelnest.com/" rel="nofollow - http://nebelnest.com/

I saw them in Chicago, they were excellent!  Not sure if they are still active, this website is pretty dated.   They seemed to channel the English prog spirit a bit, reminding me more than a little of LTIA era King Crimson.  It was a fantastic show, and I was very happy to meet them (this was about September 1999).

Only just seen this

Now, if only we could all share some of those sensibilities!

aldri7

 

All you have to do is hear Edgar Froese's words on the Krautrock special ... you will reword this and understand it a lot better!

 

Excellent ... I've always tried to put that in perspective if I could, but the history of music is not as good in a book as Jensen's History of Art is ... one of my favorite books of all time.  I really think that we need a couple more folks in here that work/mention history a bit more ... for perspective.

 

aldri7 wrote: soggy Oregon ...

 

It's been a dry season, man ... us here in PDX/ Vancouver are about 3 inches behind normal rain fall for this year already with only 8 weeks gone by!  The water table is still an inch up for the water year, though ... so the salmon might still make the trip up the river!

 

Aginor ... that's way too educated and knowledgeable for a supposedly progressive board. Now stop that or people will think that we are insulting their intelligence!!!!      

 

It will be tomorrow of the day after, and Kanye West will be the next bard! .... and Gil Scott Heron, just another nobody!

Well I was sort of searching for something like this when I asked what the tradition was that these guys (Ian Anderson, Peter Gabriel) were drawing upon with their prog. So that is good to know, because for me over here in the USA, I can sense these influences but i don't really know them first hand. I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....

Moshkito - nice to hear from another Portlander. :)  I tend to wonder what percentage of the people on this board are from the UK.  I met a guy on another board from the UK who said he thought the Northwest US was the only part of our country worth visiting. Why? You want the same weather that you have back home?? :)

aldri7

 

If we could do that, and do it right, then we would have to put Roy Harper and Peter Hammill, in that corner, and then on the left corner Bob Dylan and Neil Young ... and we would end up with a nasty fight ... and disagreements ... but folks on this board thinking Peter H as a bard? ... he is ... the ultimate bard! With or without electricity. Specially when you consider the "stream of consciousness" that is usually a given with most bards ... though we kinda think of them in a more Shakespearean context than otherwise, since no one else has any idea of what a Bard is ... "wordsmith" would be a more apt description, but I'm not sure that the folks in this board were looking for that at all ... would make a more interesting paper for college, though, than some empty, half-baked rock story!

 

But it is not hard to show some of these.

 

Ange- France - Jacques Brel, with a touch of Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill.

 

The Italians are quite classical minded and the stories and lyrics tend to shape up like the classics do, in the styles that they are written. Kinda makes you think that Italian music came out of a complete rejection and hate for all schools of music, and that things like Banco, Le Orme, PFM, were more a way to show up their teachers, than otherwise ... look ... I have albums to show for my work .. you don't!

 

Spanish - Usually too stuck up on the "story" form that has been a tradition of their music since the 1500's, which came from the bard'ic traditions. However, the best known Spanish writers in the last 300 years, have been, almost exclusively, folks that broke that tradition!!!!! But the rock music and progressive bands in the 70's? ... back to the Bard tradition!

 

English - very folk oriented for my ears, mostly coming from the northern part of the country where most of it originated. I can not sit here and give you details of between Irish and Welsh for example, but there is a very serious bard tradition here of individualism ... which is highly visible in some of their folks. Roy Harper is as good a bard and poet as anyone could ever consider. And in many ways, Kevin Ayers also fits since he was more interested in the words and songs, than he was in the fame, and that is also a very important bard concept. You "point" the wording ... and so forth! And Kevin was magnificent at that, even in fun!

 

American - very territorial, but the 19th and 20th century pretty much killed all the culture that was not white and british based, and it is well known that the "pioneers" that came West pretty much deleted everything they encountered, up to and including the natives. It will take another 100 or 200 years for these to rise up again, I think, unless something new happens, which is more than likely. Rather independent and political. And the 20th century has made sure they are not heard or forgotten, but many folks slipped through the cracks when you see/hear Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seger, and then the Californians of the 50's ... who no one knows, but a huge number of their songs, keep getting played everywhere, in versions that gives them more creedence than otherwise ...

 

Brazil and Argentina - extremely political in origin and history ... and in fact, the popular tradition makes sure that these are not heard or seen, but many folks stand out ... and some of them even stand for their old culture that has been destroyed or killed. Same thing for Argentina, whose indigenous population has been completely wiped out by the westerners that occupied it to steal the richness of the soil.

 

I can probably generalize a couple more from the films and their history ... since it is not too far in tradition and you can see the differences real quick. But you can see, for example, the very harsh divisions in culture in places like (the old) Soviet Union between their many areas ... and the films always showed you many of these and many of the issues at work here and the good, the bad, the ugly ... and the horrific! I can not imagine their music not having the same similar concepts, since their literature sure does!

this is much more of an authoritative reply than I could have imagined. :)

Regarding the italians - I've always tended to regard heavy metal, or at least a sizable segment of it, as being "italian". And especially as it tends to become more prog like with vocalists that are, if not operatic, at least much more so when compared to english prog vocalists. To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded". 

Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.

Americans have always been by nature somewhat in rebellion against classical music as they were always in rebellion against aristocracy. The classical tradition is strong in Boston and among other wealthy east coast families, in San Francisco, Puget Sound, many parts of the midwest, and among the mormans. Elsewhere.......its blues (or blues derived music) or country or its nothing at all. The dust bowl tradition in music (if there is such a thing) probably influenced California mid 20th century. 

In the US, its interesting to take note though of how classical music thrives in so many households way out on the prairie, far away from any major cities or orchestras. Many pioneers took their 19th century music, their piano and other instruments, etc with them when they headed west and held on to them fiercely. A lot of creativity has come out of that environment - isolated households in Utah, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc where kids grew up surrounded by the classics and doting parents with little else to do but nurture their talent. Jimmy Webb was from Oklahoma, and his talent was truly unique. Another unique talent was Michael Hedges, from Sacramento but who was schooled in Oklahoma. These guys weren't ever influenced by blues or country. They were too isolated from that which is what makes them so interesting. But the other point is that to those in NY, these areas are a "cultural wasteland". I really would like though to try and draw up a list of really gifted individuals from this supposed wasteland, and compare it to a list of the same from NY. 

aldri7

  

It's more from my experience in travelling from Portugal to Brazil (1959), then Brazil to Madison, WI (1966) and then Madison to Santa Barbara, CA (1972) and then the Pacific Northwest since 1982. Well travelled in the I-5 corridor, you could say ... and there is a lot of variance in the music, though as you go north there is way too much country and western for my tastes ... and it maybe ok for places like Pendleton, OR with its big Round-Up, but in Seattle, it's like ... out of place ... cows in Seattle? Just like cows in LA?

 

aldri7 wrote: ... To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded".  Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.

 

I can hear this ... but then, that would suggest a "cultured ear" as it is called, of which there are many folks here with similar abilities, though I think that some of them can only discuss rock music, and not the peripheral music around it.

 

The fact of the matter is that when you first learn music, most of the pieces are either simplistic popular music songs, or famous classical bits ... Beethoven's 5th opening is on my piano learning book! Thus, the learning tends to become classical minded.

 

We learned this in an advanced acting class, that had an advanced lab with it, where we had a chance to experiment and try different things ... and you find out real quick that most really good acting is getting away from your own bits and pieces and influences and tendencies ... which is not something that most folks learn about when you are learning to play, on top of the fact that 99 out of 100 teachers do not know what individuality is when playing something ... another important exercise in acting!

 

Sorry to use acting as the example, but to me this is extremely visible in places that love to play "the blues", or "this" or "that" ... and you find out real quick that the music talent is diluted severely and that the individuality suffers because of the rigidity of what you have to do ... and be compared to someone else! ... which means your road to fame is lost for the most part!

 

But I always thought that the rock musicians that did the long cuts and pieces as the "modern composer" of this century, and this is where we all have failed ... we are still looking at too much of this stuff as a hit, a song, a ... anything ... except ... music! and a part of music history ... with one major issue ... the "bard'ic studies are not considered major or important ... why? ... just like pop music ... it is not considered a literary/artistic work because of its stream of conscious and lack of record and written history or form ... which of course, is almost impossible to determine, since it is mostly improvised and has no "form", to speak off as there is no history of it to determine a "form". The history of the arts, basically has never considered those an important part of the history of any of their arts, but it sure made a stronger impression in the 20th century than any other century and I think that "recording" ... is the difference ... all of a sudden, you can see more and learn more about all this stuff, that was difficult to do, then.

 

But in the process, this also shows that there are less differences than we might think ... and I'm not sure that the BARD in the Chinese Imperial days, is any different than the BARD in the Latin American days ... which I think is great. But it also tells you that there is a major discrepancy and understanding on literary and other traditions that are not documented enough for us to even be able to grab a good history off it.

 

And yeah ,.. all that is left is generalizations!

 

I didn't think so.

 

I thought that Ange was actually rather positive and had a slight internal spiritual/sensitive edge ... "ecoute ... ecoute ... " and it was really well done ... though I still think that this was influenced indirectly by Pink Floyd's "Meddle" album cover with the soundwaves moving through the water onto an ear, it seems! It's a way of saying ... pay attention ... and I don't think you would be saying that if you didn't care, or had something good to say or stand up for!

 

The likes of Alan Stivel, had his own Celtic crusade of his own people in Brittany ... folks have an idea that "Celt" is all in the Brittish Isles, and it never was all from there, though one could say the roots might have been similar. Very political, but I never thought it was not positive, and "The Celtic Symphony" is very positive, with its party like fun and atmosphere in the last side! The Brittish tried to extinguish this just like the French did their counterparts! Nothing new here! Depressing and very sad history all around, if you ask me, though so much of that history has been wiped from the map just like the Natives in America by the supposed more religious white man!

 

Magma, was, to me, no different than something like "Star Trek" ... European style! And it was just fine and musically very good and exciting and different. No matter that its main thrust might have been Carl Orff -- whom it resembles the most in "Carmina Burana", although, the content via the lyrics, as "translated" show something a bit more important than the stuff that goes on in Carl Orff's piece, which is a whole bunch of priests dissing the church and their catechism. By comparison, Magma's is much more interesting and not so vicious ... but I think that some of the Germanic, or revolutionary tone in Magma's work, could have folks concerned, to the point that later, people were comparing that work to Wagner and Nazi this and that, when the cover had them dressed as pigs! Which was very PF and an expression well used in America in the late 60's and early 70's!

 

I have never thought of either one as "desperate" unless your meaning/translation is different than what I think. However, you are comparing 40 years ... ago to today, and I am not sure that is a good thing to do ... when this stuff came up, there were issues ... and those artists addressed them as they could and would ... and today it is different, with one major concession ... too much of the music today, is simply radio/internet music, and a lot of its lyrical content is rather trivial in my estimation, and you can see that ... there is nothing to fight for ... please check the history of the late 60's and early 70's ... so you can see why things were ... so "desperate" as you say ... and I will gladly tell you that today, things are quite peaceful ... to the point of being really annoying ... because the arts suffer when they don't mean a lot to anyone ... and today, no one cares about art, or anything ... it's all pop music and sounds the same -- so folks here post that they want something that sounds like ... which tells you that they are not really listening to the music ... that one sound or effect speaks for them instead ... and as the man once said ... the father and I were one, and since then no one gives a merde anyway! It's better to confuse people than to help!

 

It was not the case, then, by the way.

Scandinavian prog and rock continues to fascinate me....

Anyone know if there is such a thing as "progressive trip-hop"?  Consider the following two female fronted bands from Norway - "Hanne Hukkelberg" and "Philco Fiction".  Neither of these bands are listed at progarchives, and that would seem reasonable since the sound is more trip hop or nu jazz than prog rock. But consider also cuts like Philco Fiction's 

"too close" and "Berlin War" and Hanne Hukkelberg's "Balloon". Sounds kind of like a progressive trip hop to me. Anyone know of similar bands or artists? I sense that Hanne Hukkelberg and Philco Fiction have inflluenced one another. 

I'd like to hear more "progressive trip hop" and wonder how others would classify this music from a prog perspective.

Hanne is a fascinating talent.

aldri7

http://www.ruv.is/sarpurinn/todmobile-og-jon-anderson/21042014-0" rel="nofollow - http://www.ruv.is/sarpurinn/todmobile-og-jon-anderson/21042014-0

I saw the French band Nebel N'est in 1999 in Chicago, they were absolutely amazing!!   I thought they channeled King Crimson.  

That's what I get when I put on their Nova Express album too. Very Crimsonian indeed. I'd actually say that a lot of the "new" French kids on the block seem to mirror KC to a certain extent. NIL, One Shot, Syrinx, Nemo, Guillaume Peret and Taal all tap into that edgy and at times rather angular form of riffing. Most of em do have their own style though, but it's pretty obvious where these people got their mojo from imo.

Oh and I am soooo jealous of you! Damn I want to see Nebelnest too!