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harmonic language in prog

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Topic: harmonic language in prog
Posted By: aldri7
Subject: harmonic language in prog
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 17:52
As I search through this site looking for new music, I'm constantly reminded that what I prefer to listen to is mostly dependent on the harmonic language that a band uses, the chords and scales, etc. If you have some basic music theory, you can then describe exactly what it is you like, and maybe connect with others that like music that uses the same language. and then, voila - new bands then became known to you (always my reason for starting new threads :))

For example, I love the Lydian mode. Thats the one with the sharped fourth (F in the key of C). One classic example of the use of this scale would be "Maria" from  West Side Story.  For prog bands that use this mode a lot, I'm looking for examples, but don't have too many yet. 

I also like major/minor shifts in the same key for example, shifting back and fourth between C major and C minor. Genesis did this a lot (The Music Box) and is probably the main reason why I have always loved their music. When you make this shift (thinking C again), its similar to shifting back an fourth between C major and, for example, A flat major. Pat Metheny built his entire song "Phase Dance" on that shift. Another great example of this which I just heard for the first time is the song "Inside" by the band Finn Arild. Finally, there is the intro to "I talk to the Wind" (King Crimson) - same shift. 

The harmonies pioneered by guys like Dave Stewart and ubiquitous in UK bands like U.K., Bill Bruford, and then later Allan Holdsworth are great too. Really cool uses of 11th, 13 chords, etc and frequent key shifts. And Chicago's horn section in the early years did likewise with chords like in the Intro to "does anybody really know what time it is")

Keith Emerson built a lot of his work around stacked fourths. That opening left hand riff in Tarkus is all fourths...

And then there are altered scales which John McLaughlin sometimes used on Birds of Fire. For atonality, of course there is Zappa. Jazz Fusion harmonies like those used by John Scofield are  cool too. A lot of the harmonies used there are based on chord inversions where the 7th in particular (also 9th, 11th, etc) is in the base and so is dissonant against the other notes. Another guy with a unique harmonic language is Ralph Towner.

But thats barely scratching the surface. I haven't seriously searched for new music since about 1985. And so I have a ton of catching up to do. And so what I notice is that with prog today, you have 8,000 bands while in 1985 they probably numbered in the low hundreds. But to find those using the harmonies like I mentioned above you have to wade through an awful lot of I, IV, V music. There are rewards in searching, though, like finding Thieves Kitchen and Sylvan which I did the other day. Maybe if others are inclined to play this game, we can put up some other prog bands based on their harmonic signatures. Unique signatures is what I am looking for. I think that it tends to be true that most bands stick to a particular language or two because those are the only ones that they emotionally connect to. It reminds me about how so much music in alt rock these days and, owing to Pink Floyd maybe, a lot of prog too is based on the minor scale with the melody hanging on the "re" (as in do, re, me..). In C, thats D. And then from there, you do as Pink Floyd did, you shift between the C minor triad and A flat major triad while hanging on that D. The emotional power of that D over the C minor gives the music a sadness which appeals to tons of listeners out there (including me). I can think of no other melodic note over a chord that packs that kind of emotional power outside of the raised fourth in the Lydian mode and maybe hanging on the "ti" (seventh) in the major keys. 

And then in a few months, maybe I can do more than just reference bands and music that is more than 25 years old, Sorry, but thats how long I have been away from popular music. Retirement does give you more free time to do the things you love...

aldri7















Replies:
Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 19:17
and........since this is the third time now I've started threads in the hopes of finding new bands, I just got a hit that satisfied two of my "needs"...:)

Those two needs are for a female vocalist and harmonies like above :) the band - White Willow..

those scandinavians are at it again.....:)



aldri7




Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 19:29
Steely Dan does some niffy stuff with scales and harmonies, to my on theory trained ears, and so does 10cc and Supertramp have some cool stuff i can show you some of them by Supertramp which i find to have cool harmonical chords






-------------
Acting on your best behaviour

Turn your back on mother nature

Everybody wants to rule the world



Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 19:53
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Keith Emerson built a lot of his work around stacked fourths. That opening left hand riff in Tarkus is all fourths...
I've tried playing this on guitar, it's a real bitch as the closest fourth on guitar is vertical which makes the fingering quite a task.. and sweeping the riff doesn't sound right.

Good thread, hope you get some more responses



Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:07
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Steely Dan does some niffy stuff with scales and harmonies, to my on theory trained ears, and so does 10cc and Supertramp have some cool stuff i can show you some of them by Supertramp which i find to have cool harmonical chords





very true in the case of Steely Dan, which reminds me.....

A cousin of the C major to A flat major shift is the C major to E flat major shift. Its very similar. Again, its also like a switch from C major to C minor in that the E goes from natural to flatted. Anyway, "Rikki don't lose that number" uses that shift in the refrain. Also, ELP uses it in "Abaddon's Bolero" every time the theme returns to the beginning..

aldri7




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:10
also, can anyone recommend to me more prog using the Lydian mode and also the mode that starts on "E" (Can't remember the name of it right now...I love both...

aldri7


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:13
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Keith Emerson built a lot of his work around stacked fourths. That opening left hand riff in Tarkus is all fourths...
I've tried playing this on guitar, it's a real bitch as the closest fourth on guitar is vertical which makes the fingering quite a task

yeah, your strings are tuned in fourths so that would be the same finger? :)   Heh, heh.........(i shouldn't laugh) - some things on guitar are easier than on the piano, like key shifts, but not ELP, I guess. Which begs the question - if Keith had been a guitar player, would his music have sounded a lot different harmonically? :)

aldri7


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:19
^ well you can use separate fingers but it's no easier than using one


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:26
Phrygian is the third mode.

Hoelderlin's "Rare Bird" is the first example of a prog song in Lydian that comes to (my) mind, though, doubtless, I'll think of others.

Grizzly Bear isn't necessarily prog, but they're more recent and make a lot of use of the Lydian mode. On their newest record, "What's Wrong" uses it heavily.

Can't think of any prog in Phrygian, though I may think of some.




Posted By: Sumdeus
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:26
i find that intro to Tarkus isn't that hard to play with just using one finger for all the frets like in a barre chord.

anyways on topic - i';ve never been a big fan of theory or being too concerned with scales and modes and all that, prefer to focus on sound and feeling.


-------------
http://sumdeus.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys
http://tathastu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Tathastu - funky/bluesy rockin' psych jams


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:27
And I can't help but mention along the same lines the "magic" chord that was, I think, pioneered in rock by Jimi Hendrix. The chord has a name, but I can't recall it. The four notes are C, E, B flat, and E flat. Again, its a major/minor ambiguity, or blues scale thing where you have both a natural E and flatted E in the same chord. 

Now go listen to The Inner Mounting Flame album by the Mahavishnu Orchestra - whats the first chord you hear on that album? Its that same chord....

aldri7


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:33
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:

i find that intro to Tarkus isn't that hard to play with just using one finger for all the frets like in a barre chord.
it's easy to play per se, but not to make it sound right, even if you mute the strings--  my feeling is there's a better way to play it on a fretboard, maybe the descending harmony is the way to approach it.



Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:34
I have to say, I have no idea what you guys are talking about!Cry

-------------
Frank Swarbrick

--

Belief is not Truth.



Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:36
Originally posted by Sumdeus Sumdeus wrote:



anyways on topic - i';ve never been a big fan of theory or being too concerned with scales and modes and all that, prefer to focus on sound and feeling.

I kind of agree when it comes to creating music, but when it comes to talking about it, how else do you describe to someone over the internet what it is specifically that you like? I can't hum it to you.....so I can either try and write it down or refer to some basic theory. So its useful in communicating so that you can find more of those sounds that you crave. 

Question - how is it that over the past 40 years or so the Lydian mode came to be used by Hollywood film composers every time they wanted to convey nostalgia? What is it about that mode that elicits feelings of nostalgia?  


aldri7






Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:42
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:


Question - how is it that over the past 40 years or so the Lydian mode came to be used by Hollywood film composers every time they wanted to convey nostalgia? What is it about that mode that elicits feelings of nostalgia? 
the real question is how and why does music - tones arranged into patterns, rhythms and harmonies - affect human emotion?   We know it does, as per your question, but why a particular combination of notes evokes a feeling is still a mystery to me.   E.g., a tritone was called the "Devil's interval" because it sounds malevolent.  But why does that combination make a person feel malevolence?





Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:42
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:


Hoelderlin's "Rare Bird" is the first example of a prog song in Lydian that comes to (my) mind, though, doubtless, I'll think of others.


Hey, I really like this band!  thanks for the recommendation. BTW - is that a major/minor shift in the song  "Fata Morgana"? good stuff :)

aldri7




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 20:56
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:


Question - how is it that over the past 40 years or so the Lydian mode came to be used by Hollywood film composers every time they wanted to convey nostalgia? What is it about that mode that elicits feelings of nostalgia? 
the real question is how and why does music - tones arranged into patterns, rhythms and harmonies - affect human emotion?   We know it does, as per your question, but why a particular combination of notes evokes a feeling is still a mystery to me.   E.g., a tritone was called the "Devil's interval" because it sounds malevolent.  But why does that combination make a person feel malevolence?




How the tritone is perceive can depend on the context. When used in the Lydian mode (sharped F over a C major), its emotionally very powerful but not in a way that evokes malevolence. Leonard Bernstein loved that mode and the tritone
that occurs in "Maria" on the syllable "ree" as its sung in the beginning. He loved the way it resolved to the G a half step above. So did a lot of other people. 

On the other hand, using it in other contexts like Jimi Hendrix used it in Purple Haze I can see where the effect that it might have on you is different. If you use it just by itself without resolving it, its sort of anarchistic or angry sounding, like someone is jabbing you with a pitchfork. Was it the tritone that they used in the "Wizard of Oz" while the palace guards are singing while they march (o ree o, yo.....oh)? Ominous......the notes might have been A, C, E and G flat.
The tritone notes would be C and G flat. But the way its scored (without resolving it) - yeah, I think the intent was to project that evil was lurking..

aldri7


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 21:00
 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.



Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 21:13
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.


I have wondered that with respect to the Lydian mode and nostalgia, because nostalgia is not something that you can easily define. Its not an emotion really. But anyway, to find the answer, maybe in this case its subjective and based on the experiences of those that came of age at a certain time and place back in the 50's or so - and then went on to compose music for film. If at some point growing up they were exposed to that mode, then hearing it now might tend to elicit nostalgia. But for someone growing up in a different time and place, I don't see how they would tend to make that connection.

Probably the biggest mystery then is why a minor third is considered "sad" while a major third is "happy". This seems to be pretty universal, and so I wonder if it is a vibrational thing - I'm guessing a major third is more consonant  i.e. easier on the ears, and so when they hear a minor third, the ears wants to convert it or resolve it to a major third which it can't. Because it can't, the effect on you, the owner of those ears, is sadness :)   Its a little like unrequited love, maybe. With the minor third, there is a little bit of tension. So near but so far away....

aldri7








Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 21:23
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.

I have wondered that with respect to the Lydian mode and nostalgia, because nostalgia is not something that you can easily define. Its not an emotion really. But anyway, to find the answer, maybe in this case its subjective and based on the experiences of those that came of age at a certain time and place back in the 50's or so - and then went on to compose music for film. If at some point growing up they were exposed to that mode, then hearing it now might tend to elicit nostalgia. But for someone growing up in a different time and place, I don't see how they would tend to make that connection.

  -  Yeah, no, I think it must be deeper, and not necessarily connected to any memories, even longterm race-mems.   It is an immediate, visceral response one seems to get regardless of culture, age, or musical exposure.


Probably the biggest mystery then is why a minor third is considered "sad" while a major third is "happy". This seems to be pretty universal, and so I wonder if it is a vibrational thing - I'm guessing a major third is more consonant  i.e. easier on the ears, and so when they hear a minor third, the ears wants to convert it or resolve it to a major third which it can't. Because it can't, the effect on you, the owner of those ears, is sadness :)   

  -  That's a reasonable theory.   But what of the many other, more complex feelings stirred by the music of, say, Delius, Prokofiev, Brahms, and Gershwin?   And of course into later scoring masters as Bernard Herrmann, David Shire, and John Williams.



Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 22:05
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.

I have wondered that with respect to the Lydian mode and nostalgia, because nostalgia is not something that you can easily define. Its not an emotion really. But anyway, to find the answer, maybe in this case its subjective and based on the experiences of those that came of age at a certain time and place back in the 50's or so - and then went on to compose music for film. If at some point growing up they were exposed to that mode, then hearing it now might tend to elicit nostalgia. But for someone growing up in a different time and place, I don't see how they would tend to make that connection.

  -  Yeah, no, I think it must be deeper, and not necessarily connected to any memories, even longterm race-mems.   It is an immediate, visceral response one seems to get regardless of culture, age, or musical exposure.


Probably the biggest mystery then is why a minor third is considered "sad" while a major third is "happy". This seems to be pretty universal, and so I wonder if it is a vibrational thing - I'm guessing a major third is more consonant  i.e. easier on the ears, and so when they hear a minor third, the ears wants to convert it or resolve it to a major third which it can't. Because it can't, the effect on you, the owner of those ears, is sadness :)   

  -  That's a reasonable theory.   But what of the many other, more complex feelings stirred by the music of Delius, Prokofiev, Brahms, and Gershwin?   And of course into later scoring masters as Bernard Herrmann, David Shire, and John Williams.



Regarding the Lydian mode and nostalgia, I feel the nostalgia too but at the same time I consider the possibility that I might be biased given my age, etc. So I would really need to ask another person - someone in their 30's or something. I really don't know how they perceive it. Or someone from another culture. Because nostalgia is a complex phenomenon and its triggered by one's prior history with similar sights, sounds, scents, etc. In other words, if one has no prior history hearing the Lydian mode, I guess it doesn't make sense to me that it would trigger nostalgia when they hear it today. But I could be wrong. If I am, I'd sure like to know what the mechanism is thats going on in the brain. But I will say this - again, there is that sharped fourth in the Lydian mode that begs for resolution to the fifth. Its like a yearning. The ear yearns for resolution like maybe it yearns to resolve a minor third into a major third. Is that "yearning" similar to a yearning for ones childhood? Oh God - see what complex creatures we are!  Anyway, I think that you can find this discussed with reference to other modes as well, and I do know that each one is associated with a unique set of emotional qualities. Its also true for different keys.  

As for your other point, I flashed back to Bartok and the French composers. I can't describe the way that that music makes me feel. We are all connected to each other in ways we can't even imagine. But that music opens up channels and memories that are mostly buried now. So all I can say is our brain connects music with all of our other sensory experiences meaning that it can trigger sights, smells, emotions, etc. I mean, I am not French nor have I ever lived in France, but French classical music throughout the 20th century influenced so many and affected them so much that hearing it triggers stuff in me that I can't even describe. Its like triggering other's experiences which maybe I absorbed vicariously through TV and film?

aldri7


Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 22:35
^I would recommend Daniel J. Levitin's book This Is Your Brain On Music, to you, it won't answer all your questions but it goes into the question of how music affects the human mind.


-------------
In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune.


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 31 2013 at 23:09
^ I'll look into that as well


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 01:17
Got another hit - a new band I like (Female vocalist and interesting harmonies).  Its Elfonia. On the album Elfonia, the first track is really nice with some shifting harmonies that keep you guessing.  The third track "aura" introduces some even more exotic harmonic shifts. Its kind of brooding and metal oriented. But what's intriguing me here though the most is that compared to most bands, these guys mix it up harmonically from one song to the next where you don't know what to expect. In other words, they're not just using one language harmonically. Good stuff and singing in Spanish too.  Far from Norway and Sweden where I've come to expect more adventurous harmonies.
aldri7


Posted By: Quirky Turkey
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 01:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpv_WfDcLJs

Someone say Lydian? Go to 1:50 on the video.

I agree with how awesome Lydian is, but my personal favourite mode is the Dorian. Not quite sad or happy, just chill.

And since we're discussing music theory, I think suspended chords work well with spacey music. If you play using mainly suspended chords, you can't be sure whether they want to resolve into happy or sad. It gives a sense of mystery and uncertainty which is fitting for space music.





Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 03:38
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:




yes, I hear you, but this song is filled with minor scales, and major scales,ethnic sounding scales, Lydian, complex interweeving of counter melodies, and harmonies,

a lots of Roger Hodgson penned songs have lots of chord shifts as well, Give A Little Bit have over 7 chord changes only in the intro,


-------------
Acting on your best behaviour

Turn your back on mother nature

Everybody wants to rule the world



Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 05:32
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

and........since this is the third time now I've started threads in the hopes of finding new bands, I just got a hit that satisfied two of my "needs"...:)

Those two needs are for a female vocalist and harmonies like above :) the band - White Willow..

those scandinavians are at it again.....:)



aldri7



Unfortunately my knowledge of music theory is non existent, but you couldnt have found a better band, I love White Willow. Which album have you heard, they're all quite different and worth checking out.


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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 06:26
Well I like suspenders...definately.....Dorian/Lydian sound like characters out of a costume drama to me.....Wink

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 06:42
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Well I like suspenders...definately.....Dorian/Lydian sound like characters out of a costume drama to me.....Wink
i wont even mention Phrygian and Mixolydian, or Aolian Tongue


-------------
Acting on your best behaviour

Turn your back on mother nature

Everybody wants to rule the world



Posted By: wreckfan1
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 08:43
Just wondering what is your opinion of long tracks that comprise mostly of one pedal root?

Pink Floyd's UmmaGumma era does this a lot (Careful With That Axe Eugene for example), and this has been employed more recently by bands like Tool..


Posted By: warrplayer
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 10:05
What about late Crimson? who else enjoys their use of whole tone and diminished tonalities? No other band gets as much milage out of modulating a half step!


Posted By: Einsetumadur
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 10:30
Robert Wyatt's "Sea Song" is such a massive whole tone splendor in its instrumental parts. Robert Wyatt does magic stuff on the keyboards!

1:52 is where the whole-tone fun begins. The studio version - to those who don't know it - features a harmonically similar piano solo. And the elegic vocal part are such a perfect frame for the free-jazzy improvisations. Genius!

Dave Stewart built up on that stuff with his 1974 Drury Lane organ solo on the same track. He stays on the whole tone scale for quite a long time, and only moves to chromatic half-tone realms for some spectacular melodies.




-------------
All in all each man in all men


Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 11:17
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Keith Emerson built a lot of his work around stacked fourths. That opening left hand riff in Tarkus is all fourths...
I've tried playing this on guitar, it's a real bitch as the closest fourth on guitar is vertical which makes the fingering quite a task.. and sweeping the riff doesn't sound right.

Good thread, hope you get some more responses


That's why keyboards are almost always a good addition to a rock band. I like this topcic and the suggestions made, but I haven't analysed my own preferences along the same lines... I'll probably never get there, but I'll keep an eye on what goes on here ...


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Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 11:51
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

 



Unfortunately my knowledge of music theory is non existent, but you couldnt have found a better band, I love White Willow. Which album have you heard, they're all quite different and worth checking out.

Spotify has Sacrament and Terminal Twilight. I think I faved tracks "Anamnesis", "nostalgia", and "Kansas Regrets". But I need to listen to more. Once again, scandinavian prog rules! (after the UK of course...)

aldri7


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:21
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.


I have wondered that with respect to the Lydian mode and nostalgia, because nostalgia is not something that you can easily define. Its not an emotion really. But anyway, to find the answer, maybe in this case its subjective and based on the experiences of those that came of age at a certain time and place back in the 50's or so - and then went on to compose music for film. If at some point growing up they were exposed to that mode, then hearing it now might tend to elicit nostalgia. But for someone growing up in a different time and place, I don't see how they would tend to make that connection.

Probably the biggest mystery then is why a minor third is considered "sad" while a major third is "happy". This seems to be pretty universal, and so I wonder if it is a vibrational thing - I'm guessing a major third is more consonant  i.e. easier on the ears, and so when they hear a minor third, the ears wants to convert it or resolve it to a major third which it can't. Because it can't, the effect on you, the owner of those ears, is sadness :)   Its a little like unrequited love, maybe. With the minor third, there is a little bit of tension. So near but so far away....

aldri7
It all has to do with fittingness. You basically gave an example with the phrase like "unrequited love" though I don't necessarily feel the same way about the minor third (it really depends on its context for me). The brain makes connections based on similarities. Pitches can't actually be "high" or "low" in the same sense that an object can be. If we wanted to be technical, we could say "pitches that vibrate with a fast frequency" and "pitches that vibrate with a slow frequency." But everything we associated with pitch, like resonance in the human body while singing, designates a "high" and "low" that is almost universally understood.  This allows composers to create a kind of musical symbolism.


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:28
my very first introduction to jazz fusion was "The Inner Mounting Flame" by Mahavishnu Orhcestra, specifically the opening track, "Meeting of the Spirits". I mentioned the first chord that sounds on that album (and that song) - I'm trying to hunt up the name of that chord, but like I said its the one that Jimi Hendrix introduced into rock with the Purple Haze album. Its a very familiar chord and it has a tritone in it (BTW - I can take this in as technical a direction as you want. On a scale of 1 to 10, my music theory is probably at about a 4 or 5, but I can handle more 'cause I have the internet to help me! If you post a word I don't know, I will look it up!!)

Anyway, the "Hendrix" chord is "C, E, B flat, E flat". Same famous chord that Blood Sweat and Tears opens up "Spinning Wheel" with two years after Hendrix recorded Purple Haze. The horns repeat it ten times.

But back to "Meeting of the Spirits" - I bring this up again because its also a Phygrian mode song. In that mode, the scale starts with a half step interval, the only major/minor scale that does that. McLaughlin plays a riff on the notes "F, F sharp, C, and E flat" and its off we go. Classical composer Anton Bruckner also uses this scale. Maybe its my second or third favorite after the Lydian mode scale.

But I need more prog using these modes!

Mclaughlin also liked the diminished scale, especially in "Birds of Fire". The notes in that scale are C, C sharp, D sharp, E, F sharp, G, A, and A sharp. It has eight notes, not the usual seven. You can play major triads using these notes and then add a base note that superimposes a contrasting key giving it a dissonant sound. On "resolution", John opens the song playing a B flat in the base and an A major triad in the mid register. Thats a dissonant combination but all those notes are in the diminished scale. Also, on the track "Sanctuary", that brooding, exotic sounding base line is from the diminished scale. I recall when I first heard that track I was so captivated by how exotic it sounded that I had to pick it out on the piano. And then I spent several months jamming to that scale, sometimes with a friend on guitar who was like "man, this is really out there!...:)" The opening notes in Sanctuary are E (base) then G, A flat and B flat (alternating), and F (top note).

aldri7




Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:30
The Simpsons theme uses exactly the same triad as West Side Story's Maria.


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:43
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

 It all has to do with fittingness. You basically gave an example with the phrase like "unrequited love" though I don't necessarily feel the same way about the minor third (it really depends on its context for me). The brain makes connections based on similarities. Pitches can't actually be "high" or "low" in the same sense that an object can be. If we wanted to be technical, we could say "pitches that vibrate with a fast frequency" and "pitches that vibrate with a slow frequency." But everything we associated with pitch, like resonance in the human body while singing, designates a "high" and "low" that is almost universally understood.  This allows composers to create a kind of musical symbolism. 

I'm basing what I'm saying a little on what I know about the overtone series (the pitches that sound along with the fundamental whenever you pluck a string, sing, etc). Anyway, the overtones closest to the fundamental create the most consonant chords when you play  them together. Like C and G, for example. And then you continue to add notes. The fourth overtone with C as the fundamental is E. Put C and E together and you have a major triad. The minor triad in comparison is not so consonant to the ears/brain, and so that is why I suggested we associate sadness with the minor triad when it is not resolved to the major triad (like maybe the ear wants it to be). Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, I just thought I'd add that to what I wrote earlier. Thats because you're talking I think about single notes when I'm talking about chords and how they sound together. But its all relative with chords too. I mean we were talking about the emotional impact of music, and single notes played by themselves don't have much impact as far as I know (other than to relax you or annoy you (sine wave. Arrrg!!)) depending on the quality of the sound :)). Its when you put them together using scales and chords that things start to happen in the brain. 

aldri7


Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:45
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Keith Emerson built a lot of his work around stacked fourths. That opening left hand riff in Tarkus is all fourths...
I've tried playing this on guitar, it's a real bitch as the closest fourth on guitar is vertical which makes the fingering quite a task.. and sweeping the riff doesn't sound right.

Good thread, hope you get some more responses

This problem of fourths on guitar is a good place to bring in finger picking as opposed to flat picking.  So many great guitarists have used it - Howe, Hackett, Ackerman have used it acoustically, but Jeff Beck has developed a devastating mastery of it on the electric guitar (he also continously controls his whammy bar and volume knob for what I call his triple attack).  It is not just for Country, Bluegrass, and Classical.  BTW, I am a flat picker.
 
The topic is a good one - when we get technical around here it is usually more in terms of time signature.
 
Even though I have been playing guitar for over 35 years, I have not learned much of the technical aspects of it, which is why I usually just jam in G.  However, if you are looking for an interesting harmonic palette, try The Residents who seem to operate within a set of musical rules all their own.  Or another one of John McLaughlin's projects, Shakti.  Indian classical musical utilizes unique sets of scales for individual pieces.  Given the existence of microtones in its theory, there is a lot of harmonic variance albeit in terms different from what we are used to in the West.  Also, I have heard that Deep Purple often plays in difficult keys such as F minor sharp and what-not.  And if you like key changes and classical music, try the symphonies of Charles Ives. 


-------------
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:47
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

The Simpsons theme uses exactly the same triad as West Side Story's Maria.

thats funny :) (I'm singing "Maria" to myself substituting "the Simpsons" every time one sings the word "Maria". :)

"The Simpson's. I'll never stop saying The Simpsons........."

aldri7







Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 12:52
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

 And if you like key changes and classical music, try the symphonies of Charles Ives. 

Ives was amazing.  He wanted desperately not to be seen as writing "sissy music" (consonant sounds, which to him were for sissies....:))

His vision was of a fourth of July Parade, where a marching band is playing a song in front of you while another band, playing a different song in a different key, is a hundred yards back in the parade. The sounds collide, and that is what he tried to emulate....:)  Bands colliding wasn't for sissies...

aldri7




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 13:11
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

  However, if you are looking for an interesting harmonic palette, try The Residents who seem to operate within a set of musical rules all their own.  


Holy Crap! (pardon my english) - These guys are amazing! I need to set aside some serious time to listen to this! Keep recommendations like this comin!

I've got them up at Spotify. They'll load up on these atonal dissonances, then suddenly resolve to a very consonant chord without any warning. But at one point, things suddenly resolved to the familiar Spotify commercial and I had to close out. Now I'm back in but can't find the track I was listening to. They were singing about a ping ping ball in a video game going back and forth, and I was almost laughing.....:)

aldri7




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 13:15
Originally posted by wreckfan1 wreckfan1 wrote:

Just wondering what is your opinion of long tracks that comprise mostly of one pedal root?



To me, its a little like meditating and going "ohmmmmm.....", but I can be in the mood, definitely...

sometimes John Abercrombie would sit on one base note for a really long time..

aldri7




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 13:27
here's an interest song with strange harmonies.....(I found this through the Residents)....Pere Ubu's (sort of art/punk rock) "Free White".

aldri7


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 14:20
and one more thing before I head out!!

Stacking fourths is what Keith Emerson did a lot, especially on Tarkus which to me was like a giant ode to the fourth as an interval. In jazz also, this became increasingly popular in the late 60's, early 70's as an alternative to standard jazz harmonies. McCoy Tyner did it too.

And then you can also stack your fifths. This gives you that relaxing, whole tone, meditative sound that I love. One of my favorite chords is the one John McLaughlin (again....) introduced me to a long time ago in "Power of Love", for example (album Apocolypse). The notes are from the bottom up C, G, D, E flat, B flat and F - all open fifths (four in all) with a minor third in the middle. Technically, this I think is some sort of 13th chord. Anyway, as a variation substitute a major second for the minor second, and play the chord in different keys. Thats exactly what John did in "Power of Love"  Anyway, a lot of others picked up on this chord like Metheny, Holdsworth (bases a lot of his harmonies on these types of chords), Abercrombe (who loved to chill out to stacked fifths) etc and all its variations, permutations etc, but generally combining fifths with minor or major seconds. Also, in "Nevermore" by  U.K. (album U.K.), the guitar opens with the same type of chord. Try it with the minor second at the top or bottom of the chord too, and substitute 6ths on occasion with your fifths. Its interesting, but if you try substituting fourths for your fifths here, you suddenly get REALLY dissonant sounds!  I mean, making that simple substitution takes you from some of the most relaxing chords in music to some of the most dissonant.

John Scofield among others brought into jazz fusion a fresh harmonic language that seemed to be based largely on inverting the seventh (putting it at the bottom of the chord) in the standard major 7th, 9th, etc chord. Ralph Towner did this all the time too. So, in other words, in the key of C, you take the seventh which is B and stick it in your base. Having it in the base against the C and other notes in the mid register can be quite dissonant. Often you are just playing a major seventh, but because the seventh is now in the base, you've suddenly got a more exotic sound. One of Ralph's favorite chords might be from the bottom up B, G, C, E. Scofield often liked to stack his fourths above the inverted seventh, resulting in, for example B, C (an octave higher), D, and G.  Both these guys would often substitute augmented chords for the triads or stacked fourths in the mid register. Terje Rypdal also based a lot of his work on chords like this. The augmented chord that often gets substituted is based on chords like D, F, F sharp, B flat. try it inverted too (F sharp in the base).

Just try playing the Towner chord, the Scofield chord, and then maybe "E, F sharp, A, D"  followed by "F sharp, A, B, E". Four chords. In the base it goes B, B, E, F sharp (never closer than a 6th from the other notes - very important). 

70's fusion....

aldri7






Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 16:05
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

  However, if you are looking for an interesting harmonic palette, try The Residents who seem to operate within a set of musical rules all their own.  


Holy Crap! (pardon my english) - These guys are amazing! I need to set aside some serious time to listen to this! Keep recommendations like this comin!

I've got them up at Spotify. They'll load up on these atonal dissonances, then suddenly resolve to a very consonant chord without any warning. But at one point, this happened and then things suddenly resolved to the familiar Spotify commercial and I had to close out. Now I'm back in but can't find the track I was listening to. They were singing about a ping ping ball in a video game going back and forth, and I was almost laughing.....:)

aldri7


That track could have been from The Commercial Album, which consists exclusively of one minute songs.  How's that for a concept?  This is one of the things I like most about their music, that just when you think you've figured them out, or that one song you're listening to, they throw something else at you and then you're back at square one.  And yes, it is often so absurd I just have to laugh at it.  My favorites are the very early albums Not Available, The Third Reich 'n' Roll, Duck Stab, and the more recent The Ughs!  As another mentioned about Charles Ives, this is not music for sissies or the aural unadventurous.

-------------
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 18:09
thanks, Progosopher.

Truth be told, I'm a harmony snob. I admit it.  And I'll dig through music of every conceivable style searching for certain sounds. So the best part for me about being here on this site is that the prog touches so many different genres - you can get to the heavy stuff from here (metal, extreme, art rock and avant gard), or cruise the lighter side (folk, world, classical, or new age). And somewhere there is a great prog band that plays or is influenced by one of those genres. So to me we're like a hub with many spokes and tie ins that can lead you just about anywhere in music you might want to go. If its not here, someone can point me the way.  So thanks to the admins and everyone else that contributes to this great site. My initial reaction after spending a day or two reading extremely articulate descriptions here of the different sub genres of prog etc was enough to convince me that this place was for me..

Anyway, but getting back to harmony. The sub genre approach to classifying prog here works extremely well for channeling similar sounding music into bins where you can sort of leaf through them at your leisure (using the analogy of a dusty old record store here...). But for guys like me that are so harmony oriented, its still a needle in a haystack type thing, finding those bands that put their notes together just the way I like.  The best luck I've had so far is when I use a country based strategy (and why I started my other thread comparing prog by country) because I know that harmony is a language which, like all languages, varies according to geography. That has worked somewhat. As of yet, however, there is no place that I know of where you can find music organized based on the chords, scales and harmonies used (given preference over everything else). I wish that there was such a place. I suppose with technology the way it is, you could run music through a program which could extract basic info about the chords, scales etc and then throw it into bins labeled "Lydian mode", "augmented scale", various key modulations etc. This I would eat up, because I would go straight to the Lydian mode bin or whatever and be confident that I would like what I hear. 

But until there is such a program, I have to ask if anyone else feels the same way I do, or do you use a whole different criteria for judging what you hear?  BEcause if anyone else feels the same way, it would be worth it for me or someone to put together some lists of prog bands organized by their harmonic language (scales, chords) and nothing more. Informally, I have been doing this sort of thing all of my life. To some extent it would cut through the current sub genres, picking out bands here and there from each, and shuffling them into harmony categories. Not always though, as different sub genres often DO display a unique harmonic signature. Anyway, do I sound like I'm nuts? Well, with 8,000 bands and I'm not getting any younger (I think my listening hours are numbered), it doesn't sound that nutty to me. We only need members who can quickly identify sounds and articulate (perhaps the key word there - has the word "tritone" tripped anyone up yet?) what they hear in terms of standard music theory regarding chords and scales, etc.

On the other hand, in the absence of lists, I suppose this thread might suffice. I'll think on it...

aldri7




Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 19:11
^ Well said, aldri7, well said.  There is something positive in being part of a community, and although we can get pretty bitchy around here on some issues, it's a good community to be involved in.

-------------
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 01 2013 at 22:49
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 ^ Good points, music is relative to the other music around it, but still the question is begged;  why do certain melodies and chords, whatever the context, evoke a particular response?   Is it a vibrational relationship with our ears and brain; Is it learned or automatic; etc.
I have wondered that with respect to the Lydian mode and nostalgia, because nostalgia is not something that you can easily define. Its not an emotion really. But anyway, to find the answer, maybe in this case its subjective and based on the experiences of those that came of age at a certain time and place back in the 50's or so - and then went on to compose music for film. If at some point growing up they were exposed to that mode, then hearing it now might tend to elicit nostalgia. But for someone growing up in a different time and place, I don't see how they would tend to make that connection.

Probably the biggest mystery then is why a minor third is considered "sad" while a major third is "happy". This seems to be pretty universal, and so I wonder if it is a vibrational thing - I'm guessing a major third is more consonant  i.e. easier on the ears, and so when they hear a minor third, the ears wants to convert it or resolve it to a major third which it can't. Because it can't, the effect on you, the owner of those ears, is sadness :)   Its a little like unrequited love, maybe. With the minor third, there is a little bit of tension. So near but so far away...
It all has to do with fittingness. You basically gave an example with the phrase like "unrequited love" though I don't necessarily feel the same way about the minor third (it really depends on its context for me). The brain makes connections based on similarities. Pitches can't actually be "high" or "low" in the same sense that an object can be. If we wanted to be technical, we could say "pitches that vibrate with a fast frequency" and "pitches that vibrate with a slow frequency." But everything we associated with pitch, like resonance in the human body while singing, designates a "high" and "low" that is almost universally understood.  This allows composers to create a kind of musical symbolism.

Quite--  like a universal emotional language.



Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 07:55
I don't really analyze scales and harmonies much when I'm listening. I just react in some way, unless something really makes me raise an eyebrow, or if I happen to be trying to play it. Scales and harmonies are very important to me as a player more than as a listener. Lately I've been in love with the half/whole diminished scale. I discovered it while playing Hungarian minor and really liking the part of it that is composed of a half step-whole step-half step so much that I decided to just repeat the pattern. It allows lots of diminished chords and 13th chords and allows one to change back and forth between major and minor chords. The feeling for me is one of a lot emotion but all pent up, never laid on the table. It reminds of the feel I get from a lot of Crimson. Whether or not Crimson actually actually uses diminished scales or not, I don't really know.


Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 09:23
Originally posted by aldri7 aldri7 wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

 It all has to do with fittingness. You basically gave an example with the phrase like "unrequited love" though I don't necessarily feel the same way about the minor third (it really depends on its context for me). The brain makes connections based on similarities. Pitches can't actually be "high" or "low" in the same sense that an object can be. If we wanted to be technical, we could say "pitches that vibrate with a fast frequency" and "pitches that vibrate with a slow frequency." But everything we associated with pitch, like resonance in the human body while singing, designates a "high" and "low" that is almost universally understood.  This allows composers to create a kind of musical symbolism. 

I'm basing what I'm saying a little on what I know about the overtone series (the pitches that sound along with the fundamental whenever you pluck a string, sing, etc). Anyway, the overtones closest to the fundamental create the most consonant chords when you play  them together. Like C and G, for example. And then you continue to add notes. The fourth overtone with C as the fundamental is E. Put C and E together and you have a major triad. The minor triad in comparison is not so consonant to the ears/brain, and so that is why I suggested we associate sadness with the minor triad when it is not resolved to the major triad (like maybe the ear wants it to be). Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote, I just thought I'd add that to what I wrote earlier. Thats because you're talking I think about single notes when I'm talking about chords and how they sound together. But its all relative with chords too. I mean we were talking about the emotional impact of music, and single notes played by themselves don't have much impact as far as I know (other than to relax you or annoy you (sine wave. Arrrg!!)) depending on the quality of the sound :)). Its when you put them together using scales and chords that things start to happen in the brain. 

aldri7
Fittingness actually encompasses all elements of music. A certain's chord sequence's physical characteristics can cause one to associate it with nostalgia. I agree, the notes themselves don't have inherent emotional impact.


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 12:01
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

 Fittingness actually encompasses all elements of music. A certain's chord sequence's physical characteristics can cause one to associate it with nostalgia. I agree, the notes themselves don't have inherent emotional impact.

I actually have never heard of "fittingness". I mentioned in an earlier post that if anyone throws any new words out there, I will go look it up. I just did. The first definition I came across was "the act of putting on clothes" :)  clearly I need another definition.....

aldri7


Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 14:00
ON a related topic -

Regarding the emotional impact of chords, etc - especially concerning consonance and dissonance. Consonance is generally associated with structural stability, internal "harmony" or order, and things that are at rest or in equilibrium. Consonant sounds can be generated by simple apparatuses or materials like metals (with well ordered crystal lattices), hollow tubes, plucked strings, etc. The frequencies generated by these apparatuses (overtones) have mathematical relationships to one another such that we can associate a pitch with them. The purer the tone, the fewer interfering frequencies there are. Consonance in music occurs when its structure deviates little from the overtone series generated when each pitch is played. But without a fundamental tone or pitch, consonance has no meaning. It only has meaning in relationship to that pitch, and specifically what happens in your brain when you move away from it.  One would never describe a drum hit as being consonant. Dissonance on the other hand is really related to motion, tension and conflict i.e. it acts in opposition to consonance. Its kind of like yin and yang. One represents rest, the other action. But anyway. how we perceive consonance and dissonance and how we react emotionally to it might relate to how we evolved and to how sounds occur in nature.

In the natural environment, there are not a lot of pure, consonant tones. Many birds produce them as well as other animals, but not all. When birds do produce pure tones, its often to attract a mate. The pure tones go together with fancy, colorful plumage, and the whole thing is like a theatrical prog rock performance, right? I mean, you are putting your best, most colorful, most youthful and consonant self out there for attention. And so consonance might come to be associated with good health, youth, love etc. As we age on the other hand, our bodies become more disorganized (dissonant) and is that why nostalgia in music is like a yearning to return to a more consonant youthful state?

Anyway, but most things in nature are too complex or disorganized structurally (rocks, air, water) to be able to produce pure tones.  What that means is the sounds they typically make when they interact with their environment are quasi tonal at best to the point where they're often perceived as noise. Like when a tree falls in the forest (and you DO hear it :)) But dissonance is neither noise nor pure, consonant sounds. Dissonance is the juxtaposition of two or more pure tones in ways that the brain interprets as being unstable or no longer at rest. And in nature when you hear it, it often implies that you may have two organisms producing pure tones that are not in harmony with one another.  Maybe they are arguing, or battling for territory, etc i.e. competing for space or mates. Or maybe we have a flock of birds, a noisy marsh, or a swarm of buzzing insects. The sounds generated by the latter though might better be described as atonal and stable rather than dissonant due to the large number of sources creating it and the fact that it varies little over time.  A flock of chattering birds is just noise. Its just social chatter intended for none other than themselves. But courtship on the other hand involves songs intended to attract another bird, and here dissonance could play a role. Perhaps love is all about a desire for consonance, at least to a bird trying to negotiate the dating scene.  For example,  if two competing male birds of the same species are close together and are singing the same courtship song but on a slightly different pitch (unavoidable), they are creating a dissonant sound space in their immediate surroundings. Any female in the vicinity will experience this dissonance then especially if she is positioned right in the middle and might respond by feeling distressed or confused. Which guy is the one for me? But now if one of the males moves further away (is chased away by the other male perhaps) or the female moves closer to one in particular, the sound reaching her ears becomes purer tonally and the dissonance, like conflict, gets resolved. One might actually suggest that in order to avoid the dissonance which may be distressing, she is compelled to choose a mate! Only then can she feel relief (which of course is interpreted as love by the male she chooses). Now this is real musical dissonance with resolution in nature! The resolution is made possible by the act of physically moving to a position where competing sounds are no longer competing. Love is not about social chatter, its more like a quest for that spiritual oneness. One song, one God. Consonance over dissonance. Now then take Charles Ives and his warring marching bands. Charles I guess was no romantic.:)  He actually liked the atonality associated with two different bands playing simultaneously and competing for his attention. Like the competing male birds, his bands were not far enough away from one another to keep the sound space from being dissonant, and he liked it that way. He preferred to not have to choose one band over the other. I guess this made him smile, and why he wrote music that emulated that environment. What a rogue he must have been :)

But I guess that what i'm saying is that in nature, dissonance often implies conflict between two or more organisms, and all conflict begs for resolution. Not always but in many situations, especially where the tones are in relative isolation to other sounds. Noise on the other hand might startle you and indicate that something is amiss (avalanche approaching), but it doesn't beg for resolution (OK, maybe get out of the way) and so emotionally, the effect on you is colder. Love, hate, nostalgia, etc doesn't come into play. Only fear maybe:) And then as you move to the modern world, dissonance increases and in cities, etc, you have mechanical systems made of metal and their purer tones which sort of compete with one another and maybe for the first time then, humans encountered the tritone WITHOUT resolution. I don't know..:) 

But anyway, I used to birdwatch and so spent a lot of time listening to birds. The most chaotic environment sonically, the most dissonant, was always the marshlands. I wonder why that is? The purer tones seem to come from the birds living higher up in the forest canopy. Chaotic bird sounds are more frequently encountered down low, in the marshes and low bushes. Now theres an observation for you....:)  Are we talking about angels and devils here? :) Angelic voices from on high compared to grunts and groans coming from the marshes? :)  Try translating that to music and what your preferences are :) But its also related to how birds evolved, because the purer tones are also associated with more recently evolved species. The birds high up in the canopy tend to be "song birds" (of course!) which are more highly evolved compared to the water birds.  Size doesn't seem to necessarily matter. Habitiat is more important. It could be related to the size of their territory and probably a need to project farther if you live higher up in the canopy where distances between birds are probably greater. Or in drier country where trees are well spaced. Interesting, "song birds" that do live in the marshes have more chaotic, less pure voices (blackbirds, for example). Maybe its more like a city there - purer tones just get drowned out and combined with the cacaphony which renders them meaningless. Its crowded and dissonant there. Charles Ives would have loved the marshes...

Anyway, this makes me want to get outside and stop writing. Its sunny out, and I need to go enjoy the consonance of nature...


aldri7


Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 15:26
It's interesting that the "And Then There Were Three" album by Genesis has a lot of microtonal
sliding, like glissandro playing a part.  I'm not sure what other prog bands that
are melodically somewhat normal and not chaotic (I know, a relative word, lol) use
that.  I believe you also hear it on Wind and Wuthering, and probably in Hackett. 


-------------
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net




Posted By: aldri7
Date Posted: February 02 2013 at 17:08
regarding the tritone in popular music, I read this on line - 

The tritone retains its "Devil in Music" character in popular music, specifically  http://www.mp3.fm/Heavy_metal_music.htm" rel="nofollow - - Black Sabbath 's signature song Black Sabbath makes heavy use of the tritone. Other metal songs with prominent tritones in their main riffs are  http://www.mp3.fm/Diamond_Head_%28group%29.htm" rel="nofollow - - Metallica 's For Whom the Bell Tolls and Enter Sandman. Other examples are the beginning of Liszt's Dante Sonata and Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze.

aldri7



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