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Good prog band, bad drummer

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Topic: Good prog band, bad drummer
Posted By: fusaka
Subject: Good prog band, bad drummer
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:24
When writing a review for the new Big Big Train, I was thinking how Nick D'Virgilio really took this band to another level when he started playing on their albums. Does anyone know of other instances of bands who were otherwise great but never "made it" because of a bad drummer?

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Replies:
Posted By: pianoman
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:36
Pelican

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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:41
Not prog but I always felt that Charlie Watts was a rather poor, rather sloppy  drummer ! Of course, I detest the Rolling Stones, so I am biased (I assure you a rare event!) . 

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"The more I analyze the human race, the more I love my dog" Mme de Stael


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:45
^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:46
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry


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"The more I analyze the human race, the more I love my dog" Mme de Stael


Posted By: Ajay
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:49
Seeing as I'm recording a high-energy piece which, as a work in progress, has received strong positive responses despite there not being a single drum on it yet, I have to say that I don't believe that a drummer can make or break an act. Of course what a drum sound adds can enhance or detract from a work. I can't think of one act, though, which has lost points with me on account of the quality of the drums. I can think of plenty which turned me off on account of the quality of the singing.


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:50
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry

I don't know  what you mean.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:56
The original Mothers Of Invention


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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 13:57
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry

I don't know  what you mean.

Oh! I am so sorry

The first track shows a bare minimum timekeeper tendency at its most primitive (metronome) and the second a disco shuffle that would make Chic feel un-chic! 


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"The more I analyze the human race, the more I love my dog" Mme de Stael


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:04
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry

I don't know  what you mean.

Oh! I am so sorry

The first track shows a bare minimum timekeeper tendency at its most primitive (metronome) and the second a disco shuffle that would make Chic feel un-chic! 

Oh. I will check them out.Wink


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:14
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

The original Mothers Of Invention
Jimmy Carl Black is a bad drummer? Not to my ears.


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''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.''

- Albert Camus


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:45
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

The original Mothers Of Invention
Jimmy Carl Black is a bad drummer? Not to my ears.


Yeah, really. Have you heard "Who Needs The Peace Corps?", from We're Only In It For The Money? The drumming on that track is just fantastic.

Back on topic, I guess I have to give it to Maureen Tucker from The Velvet Underground. Say what you will about Ringo Starr or Charlie Watts, at least they occasionally loose (e.g. "The End" for the former, "Rocks Off" for the latter). Tucker, for the most part, is just lifeless; you might as well replace her with one of those Bentley Rhythm Ace drum machines. Though as I said in a previous post, I have more problems with her philosophy when it comes to drumming, specifically her claims that the drummer should just say in the background, or something to that effect. While the arrangements to a lot of Velvet songs might have benefited from a minimalistic style of drumming, can you imagine how boring stuff like, say, "The Wizard" by Black Sabbath would be with that style?


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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:47
Ray Phillips - Budgie's first drummer.

One of their most well known songs Breadfan has awful drumming.

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"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."


Posted By: Menswear
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:51
Oh I got one!
 
Hawkwind's drummer on Warrior on the Edge of Time.
 
Poor slugger's better at picking his nose.Wink


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What's the difference between Neo-Prog songs altogether? Their title.


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:55
Originally posted by Menswear Menswear wrote:

Oh I got one!
 
Hawkwind's drummer on Warrior on the Edge of Time.
 
Poor slugger's better at picking his nose.Wink

Not if you saw him live , as his idea was to hypnotize brutally ! Like seeing John Bonham live, its the real way to judge! 


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"The more I analyze the human race, the more I love my dog" Mme de Stael


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 14:56
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

The original Mothers Of Invention
Jimmy Carl Black is a bad drummer? Not to my ears.


Yeah, really. Have you heard "Who Needs The Peace Corps?", from We're Only In It For The Money? The drumming on that track is just fantastic.



I assumed the word "bad" was being used loosely on this thread. Obviously JCB is not a bad drummer, but he's not exceptional. Zappa had better drummers for the remainder of his career, and you could feel it in his music.


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:03
I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.


Posted By: coasterzombie
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:03
Rush - John Rutsey

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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:05
Originally posted by coasterzombie coasterzombie wrote:

Rush - John Rutsey

on that basis I would add John Mayhew (Genesis) . Both were decent drummers just not as amazingly talented as the people that replaced them.


Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:05
@darkshade

True. Terry Bozzio's drumming is pretty sweet.

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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:08
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

@darkshade

True. Terry Bozzio's drumming is pretty sweet.

he also upped the ante in UK ( now who was that guy he replaced?Wink)


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:15
Metallica


Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:18
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

The original Mothers Of Invention
Jimmy Carl Black is a bad drummer? Not to my ears.


Yeah, really. Have you heard "Who Needs The Peace Corps?", from We're Only In It For The Money? The drumming on that track is just fantastic.



I assumed the word "bad" was being used loosely on this thread. Obviously JCB is not a bad drummer, but he's not exceptional. Zappa had better drummers for the remainder of his career, and you could feel it in his music.
Also, for a good chunk of the early Mothers days, they had two drummers (JCB along with either Billy Mundi or Artie Tripp).  Jim usually just kept a straight 4 beat while the other guys played the more complex stuff.  But even though he wasn't technically advanced (or didn't let on that he was), I always really liked his "feel".  Just a hair behind the beat, but very steady.  Gives their one-chord jams (e.g. live versions of King Kong) a nice foundation.


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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 15:19
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Metallica


Wanted to say it, but this is in the Prog Music Lounge. LOL


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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 17:29
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.
 
Cookies' a genius. Andy Edwards is also excellent, but no way is he better than Paul Cook. And Ian Mosley is a very fine player indeed; see his work with Trace.
 
 


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I have many faults. Being wrong is not one of them.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 18:48
There was a Dream Theater concert I went some a few years ago, and some band called "Big Elf", I think, opened the show. They played several songs, and it was OK (I wouldn't go see them alone, though). There was something that sounded kind of noisy about them. Then Mike Portnoy himself came in to play some song with them, and there it became evident what was making them sound noisy: the drummer; with Portnoy on drums, it was as if they were a different band. Now, I don't know them well enough to say that I consider them a good band, not even that I consider their drummer a bad drummer, but that was the impression that stayed with me.


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 18:56
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.


Yeah, there's been much praise about Gavin Harrison, and the previous drummer from Porcupine Tree hasn't been particularly loved. However, from what I've heard from the band, I'm not so sure I prefer them with Harrison. The only album I have with their previous drummer is the live album "Coma Divine", and with Harrison I have all the studio albums except the last one. Now, I haven't payed much attention to the drums yet, so I might want to give them a listen focusing on drums, however, I kind of remember better the drums on Coma Divine, there was something kind of special about them that I didn't hear on the Harrison albums. Perhaps it is more a thing about the music on the albums and not the drummer. Or perhaps it is like comparing Nick Mason with Bill Brufford... it is perfectly clear who would be the favourite drummer here in PA, however, Mason did some very interesting things for me, specially on Floyd's earlier albums.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 19:13
Wouldn't call him a bad drummer, but Mick Pointer was pretty stiff on the first Marillion album and the arrival of Mosley added a lot to their sound.  Somewhat similar to Mayhew-Collins, you could say.  The loss of Bruford held back Yes just as they peaked (then again, it could be argued they held him back and he found his voice with KC).

Not prog, but likewise, the loss of Les Binks for Judas Priest and Clive Burr for Iron Maiden hurt them.  Only a bit in the case of Maiden as McBrain was at least effective but Holland proved to be a dull and loud drummer.


Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 19:36
hate to put it that way, but you would never get a good band with a bad drummer, at least a good live band. I've been to Anathema twice, and watching that guy drumming made me think about how much they're spending on recording sessions for drums only, he's below average, to say the least!

And with "Script for a Jester's Tear" being my favouritest album ever I still have to agree that Pointer was really weak back in those days


Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 19:47
Ideally they aren't supposed to exist because the drummer is the clock and the heartbeat of a band. But they do Shocked

Lasr Ulrich a fine example: Metallica


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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart



Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 21:52
Phil Collins once said you can have a mediocre band with a great drummer but you can't have a great band with a mediocre drummer. Smile


Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 21:56
Anekdoten is one of my favorite bands, but their drumming underwhelming in many songs. 

So that's my pick. 


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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 22:46
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Phil Collins once said you can have a mediocre band with a great drummer but you can't have a great band with a mediocre drummer. Smile

I see it the other way around. First of all it depends on what do you consider mediocare?
I have tons of bands with mediocare drummers which means they are keeping the beat and occasionally fill out the songs, as long as the band have good material then it's alright for me. Pink Floyd would be a good example for that and Dream Theater (which I don't like most of their material) is the opposite example.


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"One good thing about music, when it hits you feel no pain.."


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 22:50
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by coasterzombie coasterzombie wrote:

Rush - John Rutsey

on that basis I would add John Mayhew (Genesis) . Both were decent drummers just not as amazingly talented as the people that replaced them.
Exactly what I was thinking.  I thought first of Mayhew before I was reminded of Rutsey...


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 22:52

On Steve Hackett's Time Lapse there is a drummer who attempts to play Ian Mosley's parts. He sounded as if he was dragging and slowing the band down when he played the difficult parts. He did not play fast triplets like Mosely and that made the music feel worthless like taking the piston out of an engine. Mosley attacked the early Hackett music with conviction and I grew used to hearing his style and dreading the fact that he was being replaced. Mosley was a magnificent drummer with beautiful chops and power to drive the band taking the music Hackett composed to the perfect level. Tapes from the "Reading Festival" are a display of his talents. He was a bit like Simon Phillips , painting the album with inventive drum parts...just as Phillips did on Roger Glover's Elements. You can't possibly replace a drummer of that dimension with another drummer who isn't exactly seasoned and is still a student learning the craft or a professional drummer who simply isn't capable and hasn't reached higher levels like a Chester Thompson or a Michael Giles. I watched him play on dvd and listened to the cd wondering if Steve Hackett was merely desperate.



Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 22:52
What's a bad drummer?

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 22:52
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

...And with "Script for a Jester's Tear" being my favouritest album ever I still have to agree that Pointer was really weak back in those days
Agreed. Ian Mosley is so much better than Pointer. Maybe a tribute band can redeem SfaJT sometime in the future...


Posted By: fusaka
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:06
@Toddler
I think you're talking about Fudge Smith, who was also in Pendragon until 2005.


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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:29
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What's a bad drummer?
 
A bad drummer is someone who drags the time while you're playing 32 second notes which in return makes you, the guitarist or keyboardist sound as if you are unsure of the piece. It also affects the sound of the entire band who now must play a fast up tempo piece at a slow and moronic sounding pace. Bad drummers will pull your gravity awkwardly on stage during live transmission and all you can think of is how bad you want to throw a glass of water at them..but nevertheless you are professional and must as a rule.. paste that stupied phony plastic smile on your face hoping the crowd hasn't noticed.
 
A bad drummer is someone who doesn't bother to learn stage signals. You're touring constantly and so one night your singer has the flu. Unfortunately the promoter of Electric Factory Concerts doesn't see any reason whatsoever to cancel the show because of the flu. Your vocalist is singing a song that he/she has sung for a hundred nights in a row..but now begins to stare into space with a fever. Instead of singing the correct follow up section ..which might be a bridge..they go back to the chours. Because the bad drummer is not paying attention to the movement of the vocalist he/she plays the bridge while the band who has been keeping a close watch on the singer ..is following the singer into the chours. Bingo...trainwreck. Carl Palmer watched every move Emerson made during live transmission and that's what made them tight.
 
A bad drummer isn't always the guy/girl who hits the rims during a roundhouse. A bad drummer is someone who has no dynamics and plays the verse just as loud as the chours when the whole time a message is written in front of them to do otherwise. A bad drummer is someone who is on an ego trip of their own and as a result (for some moronic reason or other), decides to NOT follow the bass player. The bassist and drummer must drive the unit and feed off each other. I don't give a hoot if you're playing a beautiful John McLaughlin guitar solo note for note..with feeling...you will sound lame if the drummer and the bassist are conflicting.


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:34
^ Then I can't believe all these aforementioned guys were let in all those bands.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:39
Marillion with Mick Pointer stands out for me also. All you have to do is listen to Arena albums to hear he really hasn't progressed.

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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!


Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:40
So, I guess Arena is the true answer here

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A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!!


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 04 2013 at 23:56
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Then I can't believe all these aforementioned guys were let in all those bands.
 
They must have used the surface of their talents at the audition and pulled the wool over someone's eyes. Maybe a specific band lost a impeccable drummer and were pressured to go on tour and quickly hired someone who sounded professional at obvious points yet never revealed what was in store for the band. You might say to the drummer..."You will need to speed that part up after so many nights of playing it"..."We know you're struggling with it and so we will play it a little slower because it's difficult for you now...You've only got a week before the bookings. Little do you know that this drummer has other slop-king ideas up his sleeve. Alan White was given 2 weeks to learn material for YES and to go out on tour. He sounds a little unsure of himself on YESSONGS, makes a few mistakes, but! he continued to work the music out until the band was tight again. He was already a seasoned drummer in other styles of music..he just needed more time. In the case of others...I don't know . I mean ...I can't see any professional musician hiring a drummer that's bad unless the motive was to make money or perhaps the fear of losing money would be for that desperate move. On the other hand..some fantastic musicians have a mental block. Keith Emerson once raved about Randy Bachman and also played with Davy O"list ..who neither of them as guitarists can compare to the level of Emerson on piano. Color me blind because why wouldn't he bragged about someone who was completely outstanding? Listen to how awful David O'list's leads are with the NICE. It's not only terribly distorted..but no feeling, sloppy, and a very bad buzzsaw.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 00:25
Funny the couple of Hawkwind mentions, I know a few friends who instantly think of the drummer on Hawkwind's `Live Chronicles' as a poor drummer - BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH and that's about it!

Can't say it really damaged the music for me, I think that's a terrific live set all around anyway, and also cool that's it's pretty different to the studio album. Both stand proud on their own merits!


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 01:54
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.
 
Cookies' a genius. Andy Edwards is also excellent, but no way is he better than Paul Cook. And Ian Mosley is a very fine player indeed; see his work with Trace.
 
 

I would rate Cook as ultra solid ('genius' is way over egging it i think) while Andy Edwards brought a sense of dynamics that was previously lacking (imo)


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 02:00
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.


Yeah, there's been much praise about Gavin Harrison, and the previous drummer from Porcupine Tree hasn't been particularly loved. However, from what I've heard from the band, I'm not so sure I prefer them with Harrison. The only album I have with their previous drummer is the live album "Coma Divine", and with Harrison I have all the studio albums except the last one. Now, I haven't payed much attention to the drums yet, so I might want to give them a listen focusing on drums, however, I kind of remember better the drums on Coma Divine, there was something kind of special about them that I didn't hear on the Harrison albums. Perhaps it is more a thing about the music on the albums and not the drummer. Or perhaps it is like comparing Nick Mason with Bill Brufford... it is perfectly clear who would be the favourite drummer here in PA, however, Mason did some very interesting things for me, specially on Floyd's earlier albums.

I was never that impressed with PT until I heard Deadwing but as you suggest maybe that was more to do with the style of music ( more metal) than anything else although I think Harrisons drumming on that album is exceptional and of a higher standard than anything else I've heard in the PT catalogue ( I have pretty much everything). Up The Downstair was released with Harrison drumming on it so you may want to compare that rather than the later ones.


Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 02:16
Oh, for Porcupine Tree give me wonderful Chris Maitland on drums anyday over Gavin Harrison, as good as he is (and gets better with every PT album). So much more variety, warmth, depth and subtlety that Harrison has ever managed.

Man, just one listen of albums like `Signify' and `Recordings' reminds me how much I prefer the guy!

Please don't interpret this as me not liking Harrison, not the case at all, just that to my ears it's obvious the guy is more of a `metal' drummer, but he manages to impress me more and more with every new PT release, and especailly those last two live PT DVD's :)


Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 02:19
^ Gavin explained in a recent interview that he is more of jazz drummer than anything else, though he can be flexible and willing to learn to play within any stylistic environment ... maybe other than punk.

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"People tell you life is short. ... No, it's not. Life is long. Especially if you make the wrong decisions." - Chris Rock


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 03:31
I always found it interesting how similar Gavin Harrison can sound to Chirs Maitland on In Absentia. I think that if Chris had done "Trains", it would have sounded almost the same, maybe a bit straighter.


Posted By: JediJoker7169
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 04:17
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Oh, for Porcupine Tree give me wonderful Chris Maitland on drums anyday over Gavin Harrison, as good as he is (and gets better with every PT album). So much more variety, warmth, depth and subtlety that Harrison has ever managed.
I don't prefer one over the other, but I like them both for different reasons.  I think Harrison could learn a lot from Maitland when it comes to those qualities you singled out, and I think Maitland could learn a lot from Harrison when it comes to rhythmic complexity.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Gavin explained in a recent interview that he is more of jazz drummer than anything else, though he can be flexible and willing to learn to play within any stylistic environment...
I have no doubt he can play any style and maintain his impeccable sense of time and unrivaled mastery of rhythm.  It's interesting that he calls himself primarily a Jazz drummer, though, because he seems to lack the "subtlety" and "variety" of texture, as well as the "warmth" and "depth" of expression I look for in a great Jazz drummer.  There is definitely an academic side to modern Jazz, but at a certain level, it's more about "feel" than absolute rhythmic integrity.  I've never heard anything to suggest that Harrison is capable of feeling swing and not treating it as a mathematical exercise.

Moving on... One example of a less-than stellar live drummer is Phil Ehart of Kansas.  His sense of time has a tendency to wander.



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Rock On,
- D.J. "Slick" Jicky Rones



Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 04:29
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Metallica


Wanted to say it, but this is in the Prog Music Lounge. LOL

I like Lars. It's is what attracted me to the band in the first place.


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Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 06:42
Although they ain't fully fledged Prog, Queen were always far more deserving of a better drummer than Roger Taylor methinks....you can play very simply but with great feel (like Charlie Watts, Ringo, Mick Avory etc) but Taylor for me is stiff and rudimentary

Similarly, although Keith Moon's style was inimitably his own, I think much of it came to mirror his eventual decline and degenerated latterly into very sloppy, forced and divorced from the synergy of his band-mates


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http://s312.photobucket.com/user/exitthelemming/media/SignaturePic2.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 06:46
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Although they ain't fully fledged Prog, Queen were always far more deserving of a better drummer than Roger Taylor methinks....you can play very simply but with great feel (like Charlie Watts, Ringo, Mick Avory etc) but Taylor for me is stiff and rudimentary

Similarly, although Keith Moon's style was inimitably his own, I think much of it came to mirror his eventual decline and degenerated latterly into very sloppy, forced and divorced from the synergy of his band-mates

Better than Taylor? He's brilliant!Ouch


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 06:47
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Metallica


Wanted to say it, but this is in the Prog Music Lounge. LOL

I like Lars. It's is what attracted me to the band in the first place.


I'm a bit puzzled by the "Lars-bashing" that started a dozen years ago.)
Maybe I should watch some concert videos from the 80's because I don't hear anything wrong in his drumming on the studio albums.


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 08:05
Lars is just a very simplistic "thump-thump" drummer. It's not so much about technical abilities (although he's far from technically accomplished), it's more that the things he chooses to play are very dull and plodding. Kinda like the aforementioned Roger Taylor actually.


Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 08:11
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Although they ain't fully fledged Prog, Queen were always far more deserving of a better drummer than Roger Taylor methinks....you can play very simply but with great feel (like Charlie Watts, Ringo, Mick Avory etc) but Taylor for me is stiff and rudimentary

Similarly, although Keith Moon's style was inimitably his own, I think much of it came to mirror his eventual decline and degenerated latterly into very sloppy, forced and divorced from the synergy of his band-mates

Better than Taylor? He's brilliant!Ouch
I've never been convinced by Taylor myself. I think it's his sound rather than anything, it's that loose snare I don't like. I like a crisp snare.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/chopper777/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 08:13
You guys...

-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 11:13
Lars Ulrich, to my ears particularly when they are playing really fast, sounds like he falls behind the beat so much that inverts the down-beat, and I don't feel it's intentional. Battery and Fight Fire With Fire comes to mind, but basically most of the fast thrash-metal songs. As a groove drummer he's not bad, but I've just always thought there was something off about his playing. Even on Death Magnetic, though it's probably Lars' best performance, it can feel like he's just off.


-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 11:15
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Although they ain't fully fledged Prog, Queen were always far more deserving of a better drummer than Roger Taylor methinks....you can play very simply but with great feel (like Charlie Watts, Ringo, Mick Avory etc) but Taylor for me is stiff and rudimentary

Similarly, although Keith Moon's style was inimitably his own, I think much of it came to mirror his eventual decline and degenerated latterly into very sloppy, forced and divorced from the synergy of his band-mates

Better than Taylor? He's brilliant!Ouch
I've never been convinced by Taylor myself. I think it's his sound rather than anything, it's that loose snare I don't like. I like a crisp snare.
 
I always thought Roger Taylor was an excellent drummer.  Of course, he's not Bill or Phil or Neil, but for what Queen were doing, he was perfect.  And he could write and sing pretty dang well too. 


-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 11:47
Funny thing that those comments about the "live" experience but it really changes one's perceptions be it Simon King (Hawkwind) or Bonham . There are many drummers who in a live setting simply get really into it and are a pure joy to watch (grimacing!) . Anyone having seen Bruford will remember his intensity, tongue sticking out and mouth open! Leon N'Dugu Chancler , though not a household name, was stunning as Santana's drummer briefly. 
But when you see a drummer going through the motions looking bored , regardless of the level of complexity of the rhythms, you get the feeling he is just a keeper of time . Which explains my Charlie Watts rant!  


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"The more I analyze the human race, the more I love my dog" Mme de Stael


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 11:50
I always kind of thought Charlie was a rather boring drummer.  I love a lot of the Stone's early music, but Charlie always struck me as competent but uninteresting. 

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 11:59
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:

Funny the couple of Hawkwind mentions, I know a few friends who instantly think of the drummer on Hawkwind's `Live Chronicles' as a poor drummer - BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH and that's about it!
 
Sounds like Doane Perry's predecessor in Tull. Gerry Conway's fill during "that" moment in "Aqualung" should be epic, but the live recording in the 20 Years box reveals a guy who thinks a series of mindless cymbal crashes works just fine.


-------------
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQrdZ0QQsassZmusicosm" rel="nofollow - http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQrdZ0QQsassZmusicosm


Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 12:34
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Lars Ulrich, to my ears particularly when they are playing really fast, sounds like he falls behind the beat so much that inverts the down-beat, and I don't feel it's intentional. Battery and Fight Fire With Fire comes to mind, but basically most of the fast thrash-metal songs.

On Fight Fire with Fire it's intentional. But it's true that he tends to lag behind the beat in the fast songs.


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 12:38
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.

I thought Cookie's drumming on Dark Matter was excellent, particularly on You Never Will.


-------------
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 13:45
I saw the band Gryphon open for Yes during the "Relayer" tour, interesting band in some ways.  

My opinion was that the drumming was quite weak, although it was part of their "medieval vibe."

Here's a bit of video on the band's reunion.  




Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 14:56
Originally posted by fusaka fusaka wrote:

When writing a review for the new Big Big Train, I was thinking how Nick D'Virgilio really took this band to another level when he started playing on their albums. Does anyone know of other instances of bands who were otherwise great but never "made it" because of a bad drummer?
 
Almost all "prog"?
 
Besides, if I wanted a metronome, I could buy one for $20 and not waste a musician! Why even bother, though, since all the DAW's these days have a drummer that does not miss the time!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 15:09
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I always kind of thought Charlie was a rather boring drummer.  I love a lot of the Stone's early music, but Charlie always struck me as competent but uninteresting. 
 
Charlie ... as in "Fantasy Girls"?
 
You're kidding me ... that's Steve Gadd ... though he says it wasn't him but someone else ... I say it was his younger brother ... and that drumming is nice for a rock band!


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 17:05
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.

I thought Cookie's drumming on Dark Matter was excellent, particularly on You Never Will.

I would probably pick The Wake as my favorite Cookie drumming album. Can't beat the first rampaging minutes of Widows Peak
Still feel that Andy Edwards added dynamics that I hadn't really heard in IQ before. The Province of The King is the best example. The last section is not dissimilar to that on Harvest Of Souls (both are very similar to the Apocalypse section on Suppers Ready) . Worth comparing.




Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 17:36
When I was about 12 years old..my brother-in-law took me out to watch professional bands rehearse. At the time the White Album was popular and bands were covering the material. I was asking all these drummers why Ringo's snare sounded different from all other drummers. They all stated that he often placed a bath towel on the drum skin to get that sound. Like the sound in "Glass Onion". I have never been able to confirm this..however I tried it myself and sure enough the sound was there. In the very early days Ringo would play nice rim shots and fast rolls on the snare..but later when he played on "Strawberry Fields" he sounded like he was doing a bizzare death march for Pink Floyd. My favorite drum sound and feel from Charlie Watts is on "Jumpin" Jack Flash' and "Street Fighting Man". There is something strange about the way he plays on both of those songs.
 
 
 
 
British Invasion drummers were about the basics..yet created a unique sound for American drummers to emulate. Nothing technical, just different for the times. Definitely not the style of drumming Americans heard on Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry, or the Surf music on the west coast like The Surfaris.."Wipe Out", The Ventures, or The T-Bones..which was basically all we had before the British invaded the U.S. bringing excitement to American kids! I loved Mick Avory from  the Kinks! It was all basics yet hardly anyone in the U.S. was playing those basic beats  the way they came across in "All Day and All Of the Night", Tired Of Waiting, + "You Really Got Me". I was not fond of Dave Clark's drumming. There's good and bad in every style for me personally.
 
 
 
 
 
In 1966 , Carmine Appice, Ginger Baker, Keith Moon, Mitch Mitchell groomed the Jazz mentality into actual Psychedelic Rock. The double bass technique, triplets..and even odd time signatures were evident at the time.The most boring drum solo I had heard during this time was Ron Bushy's solo on "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida". I disliked it from the very start, yet it became a national anthem for rock music in the U.S. I was a real Iron Butterfly hater. Later..drumming styles in rock transformed into what Ian Paice, Carl Palmer, and Michael Giles were creating..WHICH was different from the Ginger Baker school. It was an interesting time to follow drummers. America didn't have that in the early 60's. Instead we listened to Buddy Rich.  


Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 18:22
Bill Bruford once stated that the sound of Scotty Morre's guitar on "Hound Dog" gave him an idea to play/create a sound of his own which differed from others. Musicians worldwide were attempting unorthodox recording methods to actually change the overall sound of music in general and not always a specific style of music. The new chemistry was applied to all instruments. The ideology that musicians had led music into unknown territories. As in every decade of mainstream or underground music ..drummers often chose to emulate a drummer in their age bracket who ..for all good intent and purpose changed music itself. Drummers hold the music together logically, inventively, and sometimes innovative concepts of playing that may have never been thought of before. New ideas were generated through the jaded trials of hearing the same approach to a 4/4 beat since they were kids and they took it upon themselves to change all of it.


Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: March 05 2013 at 18:36
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.

I thought Cookie's drumming on Dark Matter was excellent, particularly on You Never Will.

I would probably pick The Wake as my favorite Cookie drumming album. Can't beat the first rampaging minutes of Widows Peak
Still feel that Andy Edwards added dynamics that I hadn't really heard in IQ before. The Province of The King is the best example. The last section is not dissimilar to that on Harvest Of Souls (both are very similar to the Apocalypse section on Suppers Ready) . Worth comparing.



They've got very different styles of play and both are very good drummers so Edwards was always going to hav an impact, though personally I favour Cookies drumming. Still, an excuse to listen to Frequency again.


-------------
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005



Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 07:58
I think Hartwig Biereichel of Novalis is a bad drummer. Just listen to "Sommerabend". 

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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 09:18
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I like Paul Cook ( of IQ) and he is far from a bad drummer but Andy Edwards on Frequency shows what the band was missing for a number of years perhaps. Could they have been bigger? I'm not sure given that Marillion were seemingly never held back by having a less than brilliant drummer. I suppose Porcupine Tree might be an example of a band that took a big leap forward when they (or rather Steven) changed the drummer.


I happen to think that Chris Maitland fit better with the Porcupine Tree sound of the day. In many ways, I prefer the drumming you get from Coma Divine over anything they've done with Gavin behind the kit. Sure he's more technically proficient, but that's thankfully not all there is to playing music.

Listen to this for instance:


Oh and gotta say that I completely echo your sentiments regarding Andy Edwards in IQ. He's infused so much more energy and snarl into the sound of the band.


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 10:12
Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 10:33
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.
 
Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is! 
 
With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer".  A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!
 
Most "prog", in my book, is not good enough, and well composed enough, to be considered ... "good" anything ... for the most part it is just kids learning music and hoping to make it somewhere in the sphere of the dreamland! As such, they will rarely be able to move past their lessons to create something new, something different, and something that many people will remember for years to come!
 
As I said before, it starts with "YOU" and has nothing to do with fans, or history ... and Mike, of all folks should know that ... but he is stuck in time, and his ability is now showing on the lazy side, when he should be showing folks, things ... that no one else can do!
 
 


-------------
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 11:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.
 
Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is! 
 
With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer".  A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!
 
Most "prog", in my book, is not good enough, and well composed enough, to be considered ... "good" anything ... for the most part it is just kids learning music and hoping to make it somewhere in the sphere of the dreamland! As such, they will rarely be able to move past their lessons to create something new, something different, and something that many people will remember for years to come!
 
As I said before, it starts with "YOU" and has nothing to do with fans, or history ... and Mike, of all folks should know that ... but he is stuck in time, and his ability is now showing on the lazy side, when he should be showing folks, things ... that no one else can do!
 
 

Your Portnoy bashing is getting really tiresome. he is , of course, a great drummer.


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: FenderX
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:21
My band never "made it" because of our awful drummer, he plays for 9 years but he is in a level of a month or something, we need to search for a new one.


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:51
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:



Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry


I don't know  what you mean.


Neither do I - maybe he misses you


Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:52
Originally posted by horza horza wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:



Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^He may be dull but surely not sloppy?

"Time Waits for No One"= tick-tick Ouch "Miss You" Angry


I don't know  what you mean.


Neither do I - maybe he misses you

HOOORRZZAAAAA!!!!Hug


-------------
Coldness doth get away with the badness. http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:58
moshkito says "Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is!

With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer". A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!"

This post insults the great Mike Portnoy - Mike Mangini and half a dozen other fabulous drummers had to try very hard to fill his shoes - he is a fantastic drummer and those in the drumming fraternity know this.


Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:07
I always considered Portnoy to be a great drummer.  Some of it with DT can be over the top, but hey, what about DT isn't over the top.  But listen to his drumming on those Transatlantic albums.  He has a lot of skill.   And knows how to use his skills to fit the song. 

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:11
I think I know what Pedro is on about, though I wouldn't put it like that myself. I actually think Portnoy is a monster behind the kit, and for what he plays in - backs up, there's literally no better out there. 

Yet there is a truth to what I think Pedro means, and that is that these modern day drummers, who all are outstanding technical and can play insanely complex rhythm patterns, at times feel strangely metronomic and predictable. Personally, and speaking from a drummers point of view, then I think it's down to feel - and courage to push oneself out there where mistakes and missing beats suddenly can take on new form and give to the music something that is totally different, than what you would've gotten had you had a guy like Portnoy play. I think it has to do with just how much these guys have been playing and rehearsing, that it comes to a point where you get so good that it almost becomes a tournament in how never to make mistakes again - and it just so happens that I think some of the absolute finest parts of music stem from "mistakes" or bended "truths" - bended in that it gets transformed and moulted into something that truly transcends the word mistake.

Maybe I'm just rambling, and I definitely don't agree with Pedro in regards to Portnoy, but I guess I feel much the same about drumming, and music in general. 
I think my sig best explains how I feel about music actually. 


-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:13
Portnoy was brilliant with Liquid Tension Experiment as well...

... listen to Paradigm Shift.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFZXfKrFWF0


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:15
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think I know what Pedro is on about, though I wouldn't put it like that myself. I actually think Portnoy is a monster behind the kit, and for what he plays in - backs up, there's literally no better out there. 
Yet there is a truth to what I think Pedro means, and that is that these modern day drummers, who all are outstanding technical and can play insanely complex rhythm patterns, at times feel strangely metronomic and predictable. Personally, and speaking from a drummers point of view, then I think it's down to feel - and courage to push oneself out there where mistakes and missing beats suddenly can take on new form and give to the music something that is totally different, than what you would've gotten had you had a guy like Portnoy play. I think it has to do with just how much these guys have been playing and rehearsing, that it comes to a point where you get so good that it almost becomes a tournament in how never to make mistakes again - and it just so happens that I think some of the absolute finest parts of music stem from "mistakes" or bended "truths" - bended in that it gets transformed and moulted into something that truly transcends the word mistake.
Maybe I'm just rambling, and I definitely don't agree with Pedro in regards to Portnoy, but I guess I feel much the same about drumming, and music in general. 
I think my sig best explains how I feel about music actually. 


Never mind your sig - its your avatar that disturbs me



Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:24
A little bit of Max Ernst never hurt anybody....

-------------
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams


Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:57
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A little bit of Max Ernst never hurt anybody....

The Virgin Chastises the infant Jesus before Three Witnesses: André Breton, Paul Éluard, and the Painter.


-------------

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 15:23
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

A little bit of Max Ernst never hurt anybody....
The Virgin Chastises the infant Jesus before Three Witnesses: André Breton, Paul Éluard, and the Painter.


This does not reassure me


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 15:47
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

-------------
http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm


Posted By: horza
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 15:57
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.



Brilliant - I might just use this as my sig - with your permission


Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 19:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.


 
Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is! 
 
With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer".  A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!
 
Most "prog", in my book, is not good enough, and well composed enough, to be considered ... "good" anything ... for the most part it is just kids learning music and hoping to make it somewhere in the sphere of the dreamland! As such, they will rarely be able to move past their lessons to create something new, something different, and something that many people will remember for years to come!
 
As I said before, it starts with "YOU" and has nothing to do with fans, or history ... and Mike, of all folks should know that ... but he is stuck in time, and his ability is now showing on the lazy side, when he should be showing folks, things ... that no one else can do!
 
 


Actually, Portnoy did play "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun", with OSI, on their first album (special edition. I don't know if you would aprove of his performance, but I found it fitting. However, I still prefer the version on "Live in Pompeii"... now, that's some drumming I really enjoy, from someone who is usually considered a not so good drummer.


Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 06 2013 at 19:53
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think I know what Pedro is on about, though I wouldn't put it like that myself. I actually think Portnoy is a monster behind the kit, and for what he plays in - backs up, there's literally no better out there. 

Yet there is a truth to what I think Pedro means, and that is that these modern day drummers, who all are outstanding technical and can play insanely complex rhythm patterns, at times feel strangely metronomic and predictable. Personally, and speaking from a drummers point of view, then I think it's down to feel - and courage to push oneself out there where mistakes and missing beats suddenly can take on new form and give to the music something that is totally different, than what you would've gotten had you had a guy like Portnoy play. I think it has to do with just how much these guys have been playing and rehearsing, that it comes to a point where you get so good that it almost becomes a tournament in how never to make mistakes again - and it just so happens that I think some of the absolute finest parts of music stem from "mistakes" or bended "truths" - bended in that it gets transformed and moulted into something that truly transcends the word mistake.

Maybe I'm just rambling, and I definitely don't agree with Pedro in regards to Portnoy, but I guess I feel much the same about drumming, and music in general. 
I think my sig best explains how I feel about music actually. 

Yeah, I agree with a lot of Pedro's observations but I wouldn't go so far as to call Portnoy a clown disguised as a drummer.   For his exceptional skills, he is a great drummer imo, but I can safely say he is my second least favourite member of DT, after LaBrie.  Especially on Images and Words, I find his work loud and intrusive.   If you listen to DT's cover of Hallowed Be Thy Name, it's interesting to note how much of Burr's nuance he misses, especially in the middle, around the guitar solo, where he fails to soften his attack.  He just keeps playing at the same intensity which makes the cover sound monotonous, but it is not a monotonous track, rather, pretty dramatic, if anything. Actually, if DT didn't have Petrucci, I wouldn't listen to their music but that's a different issue.

On the other hand, I think there are amazing modern drummers but the drummer fraternity only seems to be obsessed with these 'monsters' like Portnoy.  Never the ones who can play with a lot of feeling and adapt to the requirements of different types of music.  I'd much rather listen to Matt Chamberlain than Portnoy.  But some of his best work is as more of a sessions musician than a full time band member (like Fiona Apple's When the Pawn...album), so, like Steve Gadd and Jeff Porcaro, people forget to mention his name when the topic of drummers comes up.   In a way, it's similar to the vocal scene...only the 'range Gods' like the annoying pop divas and the metal angels get a lot of hype.  Not people like Apple or Layne Staley who could make you feel the words.  
  


Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 01:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.
 
Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is! 
 
With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer".  A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!
 
Most "prog", in my book, is not good enough, and well composed enough, to be considered ... "good" anything ... for the most part it is just kids learning music and hoping to make it somewhere in the sphere of the dreamland! As such, they will rarely be able to move past their lessons to create something new, something different, and something that many people will remember for years to come!
 
As I said before, it starts with "YOU" and has nothing to do with fans, or history ... and Mike, of all folks should know that ... but he is stuck in time, and his ability is now showing on the lazy side, when he should be showing folks, things ... that no one else can do!
 
 


Well in that case there are many different types of good drummers. There are those built for speed. There are those who play with super-technicality. There are those that do not require a beat like you say. Could Nick Mason sit and play "The Dance of Eternity"? If not, would that make him a bad drummer? No, I don't think so. Just different.

Anyway, Mike Portnoy is a great drummer, although yes, he is also a clown.


Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 01:43
Somewhat relevant. If you remove "prog" from the thread topic. 
...And "good."
I disagree with the name of the video, but ye bump-thock beat gets me every time. LOL 


Posted By: JediJoker7169
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 01:46
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think I know what Pedro is on about ... that these modern day drummers, who all are outstanding technical and can play insanely complex rhythm patterns, at times feel strangely metronomic and predictable. Personally, and speaking from a drummers point of view, then I think it's down to feel - and courage to push oneself out there where mistakes and missing beats suddenly can take on new form and give to the music something that is totally different, than what you would've gotten had you had a guy like Portnoy play. I think it has to do with just how much these guys have been playing and rehearsing, that it comes to a point where you get so good that it almost becomes a tournament in how never to make mistakes again - and it just so happens that I think some of the absolute finest parts of music stem from "mistakes" or bended "truths" - bended in that it gets transformed and moulted into something that truly transcends the word mistake.
This is exactly the comment I was making in my post about Maitland vs. Harrison.  I have the pleasure of singing with a Vocal Jazz ensemble at my school ( http://www.willamette.edu/cla/music/mp3/singers/2012/02%20Precious.mp3" rel="nofollow - a sample from our http://www.willamette.edu/cla/music/performance/ensembles/vocal/singers/recordings/radiance.html" rel="nofollow - latest recording ), which includes a fantastic instrumental combo of drums, bass, and piano.  We currently have two drummers who switch off on kit and auxiliary percussion duties.  One of the drummers--let's call him J--has had a lot of Jazz training and is primarily a Jazz drummer.  Our other drummer is the one you hear on the recording, who has had less Jazz training and is primarily a Metal drummer.

On technical merit alone, J is a better drummer in any style because he has a more reliable sense of time, which gives him a big "pocket" and allows him to play with the beat and play "around the beat" without getting lost.  J is also comfortable with a more diverse sonic palette, and is seemingly not afraid to try new things or make "mistakes."  J can usually do this successfully without losing his sense of time.  A big part of Instrumental Jazz (and the instrumental/scat component of Vocal Jazz) is improvisation, and playing off of the written and improvised parts played by the other musicians in the group (which is less common in Rock music, but no less welcome!), another arena in which J excels.  J is not perfect, and will sometimes speed up unintentionally, but his formidable chops almost entirely make up for it. (It helps that the other musicians in the combo are able to follow the beat even when he's messing with time, perhaps something that most Rock musicians would find hard to do.) On top of all this, J is quite dynamic and emotionally expressive in his playing, a pair of qualities I also find in Chris Maitland that seems to be absent from Gavin Harrison.

Harrison has said that when he is playing another instrument in a group with another drummer, all he really wants from the drummer is a good sense of time.  I absolutely agree that a good sense of time is paramount.  What I don't agree with is his solution: an often metronomic, lifeless approach to timekeeping.  J proves that it is possible to both keep time and play with it while being emotionally expressive and sensitive to the other players.  Not everything has to be completely metrical, which is what I get most of the time from Harrison.  I understand that he is able to subdivide--and physicalize those subdivisions--on a micro-level, but I'd love to hear him put that aside once in a while and play outside the box.  If he can keep track of 32nd quintuplets, he certainly ought to be able keep track of the big beat while he plays around it. (Again, perhaps the limitation is less with Harrison and more with the other musicians.)

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I'd much rather listen to Matt Chamberlain than Portnoy.  But some of his best work is as more of a sessions musician than a full time band member (like Fiona Apple's When the Pawn...album), so, like Steve Gadd and Jeff Porcaro, people forget to mention his name when the topic of drummers comes up.
A lot of the best musicians in the industry are session musicians, and it's pretty easy to understand why.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

In a way, it's similar to the vocal scene...only the 'range Gods' like the annoying pop divas and the metal angels get a lot of hype.  Not people like Apple or Layne Staley who could make you feel the words.
Actually, you could apply this to almost any instrument.  It ties in nicely to the "importance of virtuosity" debate.  When virtuosity is defined solely as technical prowess, which is an oversimplification, it is the technical masters--the Gavin Harrisons, Joe Satrianis, and so on--who are the most-lauded.  But that oversimplified definition of virtuosity neglects the importance of emotionality, sensitivity, and subtlety.  Think of Classical virtuosi: it's not just their technique that earns them the title.


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Rock On,
- D.J. "Slick" Jicky Rones



Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 02:47
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Mike Portnoy wasn't a bad drummer. In fact, he was a damn great drummer. I wish he would have sung much less, as I think that held Dream Theater back a bit.
 
Mike is not a great drummer. He is a clown, disguised as a drummer, which makes people think he is better than he really is! 
 
With that said, the amount of music that he did with DT is commendable and acceptable and very good, and as such ... he deserves some of the credit for the quality of the work. But Mike doesn't know how to do soft stuff that does not require a "beat" ... and this makes his other stuff, mechanical, and condusive to calling his a "drummer".  A "metronome" is more like it! He woldn't be able to do "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" and other stuff that does not involve a snare drum ... which I would brak over his head ... to see if he can play drums without it!
 
Most "prog", in my book, is not good enough, and well composed enough, to be considered ... "good" anything ... for the most part it is just kids learning music and hoping to make it somewhere in the sphere of the dreamland! As such, they will rarely be able to move past their lessons to create something new, something different, and something that many people will remember for years to come!
 
As I said before, it starts with "YOU" and has nothing to do with fans, or history ... and Mike, of all folks should know that ... but he is stuck in time, and his ability is now showing on the lazy side, when he should be showing folks, things ... that no one else can do!
 
 

I understand what you are saying if no one else does. I can remember Carl Palmer being very dismiissive of Dream Theater as just having good chops but little else ( and yes I do realise that many here will find that a very ironic comment coming from Carl). Portnoy is easily the most mechanical drummer around but then there are a great many to be honest. 
One of the things that constantly surprises me is how much I like Fred Schendels drumming in Glass Hammer. He used to play a silly little electronic kit that was not even a proper drum kit. He never did this live but only in the studio but his sense of timing and feel overcomes everything. Its really strange how how much better drummers like Matt Mendians came into the band later but could never replicate the same feel. Fred was in a sense another Nick Mason.


Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 05:01
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:


Originally posted by Menswear Menswear wrote:

Oh I got one!
 

Hawkwind's drummer on Warrior on the Edge of Time.

 

Poor slugger's better at picking his nose.Wink

Not if you saw him live , as his idea was to hypnotize brutally ! Like seeing John Bonham live, its the real way to judge! 


I think two drummers played on Warrior. Simon King and Alan Powell, sometimes together (Magnu?) I don't know much about Powell, but Simon King was very sloppy. He was a poor time keeper, and a generally very erratic drummer, screwing up fills badly. He did play with 'great energy' and I guess that was the point of his contribution. He wasn't trying to be Bill Bruford or Carl Palmer. He was essentially a punk drummer in a proto punk/prog band.

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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!


Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 06:12
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

He was a poor time keeper, and a generally very erratic drummer, screwing up fills badly. He did play with 'great energy' and I guess that was the point of his contribution


Reminds me of another drummer +++COUGHkeithmoonCOUGH++++

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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012


Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 07:06
You'll always get some knob who says "Portnoy is not a great drummer"......Similarly anybody who listens to Gates of Delirium live on Shows - the drumming ss absolutely amazing......proving White to be an equal to Bruford..anyway - Portnoy - Start of Count of Tuscany - his nod to Pearts 2112 - absolutely fantastic, Not too sure about Mick Pointer of marillion though...saw him a couple of times live and he was nothing more than ordinary.....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......


Posted By: dysoriented
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 09:55
Mike Portnoy is a brilliant drummer, I've seen him with DT 4 times and couldn't fault his performance at all! Lol one of those was even open air (which makes everything sound awful) and it was still a top notch performance even the drum solo!
Saying this I can't think of any drummers I've disliked over the years!


Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 07 2013 at 10:02
In order to better illustrate what I mean by turning mistakes into something else entirely, is in fact rather well "explained" by Pierre Moerlen in this track, although he doesn't exactly talk about it...:


Some of my fave drumming is in that little piece. And personally I don't think anybody in modern drumming can do what Moerlen does here,- yet he purposely makes "mistakes". Maybe there's too much 'ego' around these days to let oneself take such chances? I don't know really, but I miss more of this stuff to be honest.


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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams



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