Is Steven Wilson making Prog music?
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Topic: Is Steven Wilson making Prog music?
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Subject: Is Steven Wilson making Prog music?
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 06:28
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Progarchives is obviously the most reliable source for Prog music in web and i want to ask this question from people here because i think most of the people who like Wilson`s work are not real Prog fans, (they are usually interested in bands such as Archive , Anathema, Muse and Radiohead too) in other words the majority of them have never listened to 70`s Prog masterpieces and if they do they never get interested, so what happens here? why many people in Prog community likes Raven That ... too? is this phenomena close to Pink Floyd`s Dark Side of The Moon? (the third most popular album in the world) or is it just a simple piece of music easily pleases ears with any taste? I myself think that Wilson is a good musician but not a Prog genius.  |
Replies:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 06:33
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I haven't heard his new one but the previous album is Prog. I have no doubt about that. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: fusaka
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 06:56
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Of course he is. People in the prog community like Raven because it is prog, and very much so.
Edited to add that I hope this thread will not turn nasty... it always seem to be the case when people talk about Steven Wilson or Mike Portnoy or other prog musicians with strong personalities. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/fusaka/" rel="nofollow - my last.fm |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 07:39
| Don't know the guy or his music, but I was with him in a record store of Le quartier Latin in Paris this afternoom. He was there to sign his record. A really nice guy, very simple, very cool. Maybe I should listen to the Raven. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 07:42
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Of course he is making prog, now whether one thinks of it as progressive is another matter altogether. The music style of prog is all over Steven - all the rest is just mindless stickers. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 07:55
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I think you're right about one thing - that Steven Wilson does have a fanbase that has grown outside of the confines of and even indendently of the "real prog fans" as you define them (i.e. fans with prior familiarity/appreciation of the 70s roots of prog). Though you might see some rebuttals from people who will latch onto the "real prog fan" statement, I think I understand what you mean, and I'll accept that definition for the sake of argument, even though I don't personally agree there is such a thing. Your point, as I see it, is that Wilson seems to have crossed over into more mainstream acceptance (like Dark Side of the Moon, as you said), and you wanted to see if we also see this happening, and if so, does this cast doubt on Wilson's classification as a prog musician? I'd say yes to the first question, and no to the second, because prog is defined (here, anyway) more as a stylistic term (that is, how the music sounds) rather than a mainstream/underground division (that is, the idea that prog is an underground phenomenon). Of course, there are dozens of threads each year about what prog is/isn't, so it's evidently a burning question for many people. I, however, think it's a fairly trivial question in terms of enjoying/not enjoying the music. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: SpectralHorizons
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 08:02
| The Raven that Refused to Sing is definitely progressive rock, but I can see where you're coming from. I listened to Porcupine Tree before I listened to many of the 70's prog masterpieces and couldn't bring myself to listen to PT or even Wilson's solo career as much. Now I listen to both frequently. I would say that Steven Wilson is prog but combines it with other things such as alternative and post-rock. This is probably why those who like Muse, Radiohead, etc. also enjoy him. Steven Wilson doesn't remind me purely of the 70's masterpieces, but then again, in progressive rock, who would want carbon copies of the greats rather than innovators? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:15
| It's prog. It (Porcupine Tree, that is) has elements of alternative rock, because of which it appeals to some alt rock listeners. Which is just as how prog metal bands like Opeth also appeal to a lot of metal listeners because of the metal side of their music. Rush didn't depend exclusively on a prog rock fanbase either, so I don't see the relation between the fanbase and whether the music is prog or not. You'd tend to think prog rock ought to attract some prog fans but that's it, it's not necessarily a strong correlation. The main reason a lot of prog rock bands have an exclusively prog following is the lack of promotion/awareness of their work outside prog circles. |
Posted By: The Mystical
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:20
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I myself am a good fan of his latest album, but in no way is it the 11th greatest prog album of all time. ------------- I am currently digging: Hawkwind, Rare Bird, Gong, Tangerine Dream, Khan, Iron Butterfly, and all things canterbury and hard-psych. I also love jazz! Please drop me a message with album suggestions. |
Posted By: Junges
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:23
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I think just the opposite: his fans have only knowledge of the big ones in prog: Yes, Genesis, ELP, PF, etc. But I agree with you when you say he is not a prog genius. I think he is way way overrated. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:33
That's because it isn't. When a high profile album is first released it gets a lot of high-ratings which means it enters the chart fairly high up. As time progresses as more considered reviews and ratings (and unfortunately retaliation ratings and hateboy ratings) are posted so it will move down the chart and eventually it will level-out at a more reasonable chart position comensurate with its actual "worth". ------------- What? |
The Mystical wrote:Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:44
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:47
^But No-Man is an island! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:48
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Very cool pic of Cale. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:52
I bet next time you'll discuss whether Robert Fripp is a prog genius or not.  ------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 09:55
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:00
There's just something unequivocally cool about that man. I have still to "discover" No-Man actually. I am very fond of both IEM, Bass Communion and his solo stuff, yet the times I've heard No-Man described, I thought they weren't for me. YouTube will settle this for me a little later methinks  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:09
I guess it would depend on each country: I should check the French Indie press, but I'm ready to bet that the first French fans were metalheads, since I first read about Porcupine Tree in the Metal press (and, yes, I was reading some Indie press from time to time). |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:17
------------- What? |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:28
That's a great point. Pink Floyd has millions of fans, but most of them aren't necessarily prog fans. We could probably say that about many prog bands here in PA, that a large percentage of their fan base is outside the confines of prog. Marillion, for example. Most of us here at PA probably listen to a lot of music outside of prog as well. I know I do. (Currently playing as I type this is Sasha & Digweed's "Northern Exposure." :-)
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:32
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Bouncing this back to you: what IS prog music in your mind? The question is genuine, and not rhetoric - I'd be struggling to define "prog" in the same way you could define blues or rap. The PA definition is loose and broad enough to include Iron Maiden, Sigur Ros, Kate Bush and a whole bunch of bands I've never heard of. Yes, Wilson is making a lot of music in general, and a good chunk of what he is putting out that can be defined as "prog". On another note: I think we need to get our minds out of the 1970s time loop, really. It's true that back then Yes, KC and Tull and the rest of them (in no particular order) were verra, verra progressive. But, look at this small icon in the corner of your screen - it's 2013 now. The world has moved on in great leaps, but so many of the 70s giants got stuck in the bell-bottom era. Genesis haven't made a prog album in 30 years. Pink Floyd have been defunct as a creative force since 1994. Yes haven't quite fizzled out, but they haven't been progressing anything for decades. There is no Jethro Tull or KC to lpok up to. ELP, IMO, were out of steam 35+ years ago. Can you still use the word progressive for the art or recycling the 1970s music? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:38
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Yet Iron Maiden and Kate Bush aren't considered prog on this site. Their music bears trades of the genre and is therefore included in Prog Related, - but it doesn't make them into prog artists. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:40
| I don't have 'Raven' yet, neither some other of his prolific output, but I have quite some PT albums and Grace For Drowning. He definitely makes Prog, although albeit a rather accessible one. Nothing wrong with that, we can only be happy that people like him are around, making good music and possibly leading other people to investigate the roots of Prog can only be good news. |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:41
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.
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:49
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I'm not the last word on this, but I'm pretty sure the first time Steven Wilson's name hit US shores was when "The Sky Moves Sideways" was released, and there was a bit of a buzz about this one-man-band guy who could do Floyd better than Floyd. If No-Man had any presence in the US, I never heard about it. In fact, I think Roger Miller (Mission of Burma, Birdsongs) had a band with that name too, but I had heard of that one.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Ady Cardiac
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 11:12
| in answer to the main question......of course he is....stupid stupid question.....its 2013......it all cant sound like something from the seventies......if anything he is probably one of the top prog people out there right now.....if he's not prog what is he then?...funk??.......pah......silly question... |
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 13:37
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Sometimes I get the feeling that some people have the idea that if music
isn't inaccessible and a bit tedious to listen to, it isn't Prog. However, I still haven't been able to figure out what Prog is, but I know what I like, and I like Steven Wilson. Lots of Floyd fans actually do. I think it's because his music is both melodic and harmonic, but still varied. Thus his popularity among indie fans and others who wants to get more out of music experiences than what the top lists have to offer. Like Rogerthat mentioned, more people would discover the more accessible Prog acts if their marketing muscles were stronger. And last, what defines a "genius"? I know Einstein was one, but in prog music? It's a strong word and should be used sparingly, methinks. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 13:44
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Thanks to all the people who at least most of them answered my question. for those who compare Wilson with Fripp (!) and those who thinks that this is a clear and fixed fact that Wilson is the definition of Prog and when they read my question thinks that im crazy or somethin or maybe too old fashioned i have nothing to say. but to the rest of you(majority) i want to add something to my first statement : 1. to Holy Moly: im so agree with you about the definition of the word "Prog" but what im trying to say is that there are different aspects of this wide definition that one can hold on to it and im strongly suggest this fact that Wilson fans aspect is totally different from the classic 70`s fans aspect. 2. if we accept that Wilson is a 100% Prog musician, the problem is (as Junges said ) he is way way overrated. 3.Thanks Argonaught for reminding of the calender i must say im totally disagree with you because i never said that in 21st century we never hear masterpieces i am a fan of new bands and musicians such as Phideaux, Wobbler, Sigur Ros, Mogwai, Decemberists, GYBE!, IlTempio delle Clessidre and so many other modern bands and even old bands with fresh and new music like Anderson`s new album. YES i live in 2013 but i rather listen to 70`s! my main point is there are different approaches to defined Prog music but i totally disagree with picturing Wilson as the man with the flag of the Prog in his hand in front of the heritage of 45 years |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 14:07
Okay, now you've probably confused many of us even more.  Sigur Ros, Mogwai, and GYBE! are about as "prog" as Radiohead - which is to say, not really prog in the strictest, purest sense - and furthermore, their audience is probably a 99% non-prog audience. Wilson is clearly more aligned with prog and steeped in its traditions. It's not that Wilson is the "man with the flag of prog in his hand," it's that he's clearly in the zone right now. I mean, Grace for Drowning and The Raven are two brilliant albums, arguably the best of his career, and a reason to be excited these days. Furthermore, given his age, it's defying the odds and pretty inspirational - most of the prog giants of the past at 45 years old were long past their peek, but Wilson's seemed to really find his voice. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 14:16
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Plz jude dont play these games with me plz dont say you think that i dont know the definition of Post-Rock, I mentioned those bands just to prove to my friend who thinks i lost my calender i have one! but you are right, of course they are not 100% Prog! |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: March 08 2013 at 14:43
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I think Steve would say that he play another kind of prog, that is experimental, metal but have some connection with some prog from the past, like it or not....
------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:23
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I don't care if it's prog or not, really. I just love the music of Steven Wilson. I don't just listen to prog, I listen to quite a range of music. Certainly one of my favourite artists this century is him, and his various projects. The Raven might be his best one yet. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:39
I am not sure anybody in this thread has claimed that Wilson defines or is the very epitome of prog (could you point me to the offending post?), just that his music can be classified as prog. Which, if you have heard his solo work, is a very reasonable statement. I don't see why Remainder the Black Dog, Sectarian or Raider are not prog tracks. Actually, the influence of KC is all over the map in the first two tracks I mentioned. With that told, I also would not consider Wilson a genius (an industrious and prolific musician with great taste, yes) nor as influential as Fripp, but then who am I to say so. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 03:39
I could, and would, say the same thing about Jon Anderson, especially his singing. Once again, I don't see the relevance of this to the question you've asked. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 03:51
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[/QUOTE]
in answer to the main question......of course he is....stupid stupid question.....its 2013......it all cant sound like something from the seventies......if anything he is probably one of the top prog people out there right now.....if he's not prog what is he then?...funk??.......pah......silly question...[/QUOTE]
hey roger see this! read posts more carfully |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 03:52
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Purism has never done the world many favors down the years and it should be self evident that Wilson is in a classic 'no win' situation here i.e. to appease the naysayers in our midst he has to imitate a style that he actually wants to (cough) progress beyond (yet somehow avoid charges of plagiarism - go figure). What would classic prog have sounded like had the originators assimilated contemporary developments like Post Punk, Dream Pop, Chamber Pop, Grunge, Post Rock, Shoegaze and Indie etc Might it have sounded a wee bit like (gulp) Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree? ------------- 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 03:54
I have read it. And yes, Wilson is, commercially and popularity wise, one of the top prog rock musicians now, I don't find anything lofty in that statement because it's just an observation and a fairly accurate one. And Ady Cardiac has only asked what should he be classified as, if not prog. Perhaps you read it as "if he's not prog, what is". Because I nearly did the first time. You seem to be anguished that prog rock FANS like his work so much. Well, you should ask why Akerfeldt seeks him out to master his work. Wilson is sought after by prog rock musicians, let alone the audience. Their choices are not for you to judge. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:02
of course they are not mine to judge! 
no roger i can tell that Wilson is certainly not Funk!! and i read that
statement correctly, i just wanted to hear the opinions here and i
heard yours thank you. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:05
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Well, I am just curious how much you are aware of his dossier. I am just going to get lazy and quote verbatim from wikipedia: "Wilson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer" rel="nofollow - produced and contributed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backing_vocalist" rel="nofollow - backing vocals , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar" rel="nofollow - guitar and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_instrument" rel="nofollow - keyboards for Opeth on the albums http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Park" rel="nofollow - Blackwater Park , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance_%28Opeth_album%29" rel="nofollow - Deliverance , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_%28album%29" rel="nofollow - Damnation . In addition to this, he has collaborated on many projects with Belgian experimental musician Dirk Serries of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidna_Obmana" rel="nofollow - Vidna Obmana and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_Falls_Burning" rel="nofollow - Fear Falls Burning , most notably on their collaboration project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_%28music_project%29" rel="nofollow - Continuum which has so far produced two albums. Wilson is also featured on a Fovea Hex EP "Allure" (Part 3 of the "Neither Speak Nor Remain Silent" trilogy of EP's) on bass guitar. This EP was released in April 2007 through Die-Stadt Musik. He has also worked with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - OSI , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marillion" rel="nofollow - Marillion , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBK_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - JBK , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphaned_Land" rel="nofollow - Orphaned Land , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paatos" rel="nofollow - Paatos , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Travis" rel="nofollow - Theo Travis , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_Ono" rel="nofollow - Yoko Ono , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_%28singer%29" rel="nofollow - Fish , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cipher" rel="nofollow - Cipher and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anja_Garbarek" rel="nofollow - Anja Garbarek performing songwriting duties as well as performing musically. Most recently, Wilson is featured on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Pendulum album " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_%28album%29" rel="nofollow - Immersion ", with his vocals featuring on "The Fountain". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-13" rel="nofollow - [13] He made a guest appearance on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Theater" rel="nofollow - Dream Theater 's 2007 album, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_Chaos" rel="nofollow - Systematic Chaos on the song " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance_%28song%29" rel="nofollow - Repentance ", as one of several musical guests recorded apologizing to important people in their lives for wrongdoings in the past. Wilson did an interview with German musician and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composer" rel="nofollow - composer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Schulze" rel="nofollow - Klaus Schulze . Schulze was an important figure of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krautrock" rel="nofollow - Krautrock movement. This interview is featured as bonus material in Schulze's Live DVD, Rheingold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-14" rel="nofollow - [14] The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anathema_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Anathema album, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Were_Here_Because_Were_Here" rel="nofollow - We're Here Because We're Here , was mixed by Wilson in a period beginning January 2010 and he is thanked in the album liner notes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-15" rel="nofollow - [15] A current ongoing project for Wilson is remixing the back catalogue of King Crimson from 1969–84 into MLP (Meridian Lossless Packaging) 5.1 and new stereo mixes, as well as remixing the back catalogue of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jethro_Tull_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Jethro Tull , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-News-16" rel="nofollow - [16] he also did the remix for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Land_of_Grey_and_Pink" rel="nofollow - In the Land of Grey and Pink by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury_scene" rel="nofollow - Canterbury scene band http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Caravan . The first three new editions were issued in October 2009, with more emerging in batches over the coming years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-17" rel="nofollow - [17] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Wilson#cite_note-17" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:09
thanks roger but again i dont think reading these infos make my ears believe he is donig 100% Prog! 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:14
You just don't get it do you? (not even the founding fathers ELP, Yes or Genesis were 100% Prog) There's nothing more intolerable than a nostalgia for something that never happened in the first place -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:16
As I said earlier Grsce For Drowning is definitely Prog. I don't deal with percentages. Other than vague statements like "slightly Proggy" or some such.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:19
An ideal moment to play this song: |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:24
ow... he hates ELP ! http://www.progrockmag.com/news/steven-wilson-wont-work-on-elp-again/" rel="nofollow - www.progrockmag.com/news/steven-wilson-wont-work-on-elp-again/ and of course the founding members you mentioned are 120% prog! wat r u talkin about pal?!! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:36
I see now that you don't deal in any subtlety. It doesn't say that he hates them. There are many bands I am not as drawn to as others, doesn't mean I hate them. And I only have to listen to them. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:40
What I mean is that Jeremy Bender, Lucky Man, Benny the Bouncer, More Fool Me, I Know What I Like, Counting Out Time are all examples of traditional popular music forms that ain't considered remotely 'prog'. I adore all the aforementioned songs hugely but I don't reject anything just because it ain't 13/16 meter with tron, nested septuplets and inspired by cosmiche hippy w.a.n.k literature. The black and white world you inhabit has no place here i.e. tell me who doesn't love what can never come back (Robert Smith of the irreparably NON Prog group the Cure) -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 04:48
He doesn't say he hates them. We all can't like everything. I'll listen to ELP and enjoy it, but they don't connect with me like say VdgG or Floyd do. More power to him for not taking production jobs just for the money. (How Prog is that?!!!)
/edit: damn ninja'd by Ian and Iain ------------- What? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 05:24
On this count, I actually agree with Wilson. Wilson is not morally or legally obliged to love any of the given bands - even those that are highly rated as "prog" by the PA forum people. He cannot be forced to work on something that doesn't engage or inspire him. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 05:32
i think we all love non prog music there is no doubt, but the topic here is something else my friend . |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 05:38
dear dean they are Prog bands ( i cant believe it should be discussed here!) with a bunch of non prog songs mostly in the first albums when they were struggling to give birth to Prog, why you didnt mention Jethro Tull? Anderson himself says that he did just two albums in Prog! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 05:51
Yep, a fictitious standard you measure contemporary music against which has no correlation in the real world inhabited by the vast majority who frequent this site -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 06:25
------------- What? |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 07:25
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maybe if we were writing in farsi it was much easier for me but i bet you dont know even one word in farsi and i have to write in your language , so maybe sometimes i misunderstand but i`ll try to catch up, in this particular point i give you assurance that i totally understood you... "Is everything Genesis did after The There Were Three 100% Prog?" i think we all know Genesis before and after Gabriel are two different subjects and i find you easy to understand . now i`ve got the point that you think Wilson is doing Prog so why bothering keep on saying it? i just asked a question and you answered, thanks. |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 07:45
I don't know what your wager was, but you might have just lost a bet: I know at least three words: Bazaar (market), Shah (king), Kaftan (long overcoat). Also, many geographical names in Asia, especially those ending with -stan, are believed to have originated back in the Persian Empire times.
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Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 08:24
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nice one argo! by the way Kaftan? we dont have such thing! maybe from another asian language! we have kaffan : shroud کفن and originally it is pronounced Ostaan : province |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 10:30
I would like to give my opinion on your posts but that avatar of yours always gets me distracted
 |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 10:51
I thought you said earlier you were inundated by the mighty swelling tide of POS (Persons of the Opposite Sex) in uni or something?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 12:04
I wasn't having a go at your understanding of a second language, your use of which is very good and shows an excellent level of comprehension, but your understanding of the points being made, which is an entirely different thing, people make errors in understanding the written word even in their first language.
This is a discussion forum not a question and answer session, if you cannot handle discussion then don't raise questions.
As Argonaut pointed out many English words are of Iranian origin, such as scarlet, orange, lemon and peach, as well as sandal, taffeta, seersucker, caravan, balcony, bazaar and magic. It's a wonderful poetic language and we are grateful for enrichment it has provided our hybrid language. ------------- What? |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 12:28
Bielo Dugme`s 1975 album, great music great cover great concept
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Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 13:34
there`s always differences in opinions dear dean, and you were right at some points but i felt that your approach to this discussion somehow was not very friendly and i just couldn`t discuss with you, anyway i had no bad intentions. thanks for the good things you said about Iran , you may know that nowruz celebration is near and here`s a present for you hope you like it: |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 13:48
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^ nice to see a bijelo dugme avatar. Regarding the thread, I don't like Porcupine Tree and I don't like Steve Wilson's vocals. I also don't understand all the fuss around Porcupine Tree. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 13:52
| I love SW. I am a prog fan. Boom. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 14:06
Been listening to a lot of Tree recently. Check my sig. They are really great if maybe a bit dark and a bit melancholy ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 14:14
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I'm a bit late here, but this discussion seems to be more attuned to the subjects in the prog lounge, so I've moved it there. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 14:21
Good to see.  They're amazing. I've managed to make them one of my mother's favourite bands now even.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 14:25
Wasn't it moved from there in the first place? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: elbownut
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 15:00
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Yes ------------- "Music was my first love and it will be my last" - John Miles "Music" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 15:11
Your measures of friendliness are of no concern to me, if you do not wish to discuss then don't raise questions, each has an equal say in these discussion threads and an equal right to express their opinion. ------------- What? |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 16:25
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my measures are important to myself den! because of that i think talking to you is useless and just taking my energy without having anything in it so i dont have any reason to discuss any more with YOU ( i mean JUST YOU of course not anyone else here i enjoy listening to others opinions when they speak reasonably but i have the right not to have conversation with one particular person ) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 16:29
------------- What? |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 16:35
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sometimes rudeness(!) is very necessary against fanaticism. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 16:35
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Yes. The initial post was lame.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 16:46
Speaking as an Admin of this site I can assure you that rudeness is never necessary here. If you think it is then you can leave now.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Lord Jagged
Date Posted: March 09 2013 at 17:47
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It's prog.
It'll be prog until he releases the Country & Western album that's in the vaults. ------------- Dead Souls In The Rear View Mirror Hitch A Ride For A While.. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 12 2013 at 09:12
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Hi, I'm starting to think that Steven is just another kid that wants to play music, and he doesn't care what it is, and neither do I. It's just what he wants to play and do. I, personally, couldn't careless, if anyone/someone made progressive, prog or bull-shishkabob music! Rap might be good, too! I do think that he is spending too much time working everyone else's stuff, and he should concentrate more on his own, to make it better and more valuable. As such, he is stretching himself too far, and losing the touch with his own group and work! It might be "better" in terms of production and matering, but the music far inferior to anything out there that he has done before. Feels like the Rolling Stones, it's the best studio because they have plenty of money to go around, not because it is the best music or place to do it! Who cares about the music anyway?
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 12 2013 at 09:19
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I have not heard Insurgentes (nor Raven yet, although this will soon be remedied) but Grace for Drowning in my opinion is definitely prog. In fact, I would say that quite a bit of that album harkens back to the old school prog days, and reminds me in some places of early Crimson. I also thought the Storm Corrosion CD was quite proggy and had a bit of a classic prog sound albeit much darker. However, even his more modern sounding stuff with PT is still prog. Just because something doesn't sound like it was made in 1972 doesn't mean it isn't prog. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: March 12 2013 at 09:37
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What about a poll : Steve Wilson VS Brian Wilson ?
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Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: March 12 2013 at 23:35
Brian Wilson, The Beatles, The Kinks, The Byrds, Small Faces, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell and Paul Simon are all innovative artists who advance the cause of Prog, without being regarded as Prog themselves, whereas Steven Wilson is Prog whether or not he acknowledges the fact (and performs with other Prog artists such as Steve Hackett, Opeth etc.)
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Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: March 13 2013 at 01:36
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Listenning to the CSN's choirs of "Luminol", I think he acknowledges the fact.
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Posted By: MACB
Date Posted: March 13 2013 at 07:46
| yes he is. Also, the new album contains so many influence from classic prog rock that it is a good starter point for the less educated prog fans. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 13 2013 at 09:36
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To answer the OP, I think yes he is prog, in his own musical way....Forgetting about the prog lords of old. I prefer to say Steven Wilson is making progressive music......I don't care much for the word "prog", I have no idea if he is prog, but he does make progressive music.
I mean just the title of his new album is progressive. There is a large amount of progressive juices flowing thru this album, as in GFD.
Last year standing in line for his concert in Seattle, nobody was talking about PT, everyone was talking about Storm Corrosion, No-man and Blackfield. A few people close to me had never even heard FoABP or The Incident.....It seemed to them Steven Wilson had no connection to Porcupine Tree.
He is making some absolutely great music, and when you encompass his glaring skills as a producer and remastering engineer and his attention to musical detail, a lot of what is coming out is close to genius work...but at the lowest level he is doing brilliant work. -------------   
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 08:17
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Well, I've never really thought of Porcupine Tree as being very progressive, though they certainly had a number of prog elements to their sound. That didn't stop me from enjoying, and even loving, their music. I would say Wilson's solo stuff is decidedly REGRESSIVE, as it's quite plainly a nostalgia trip. That said, I think it's fantastic and done with such skill, conviction and feeling that it hardly matters what you call it, it's just great music (but as retro as any of the bands accused of being retro prog on this site......to me, there is nothing wrong with that at all). What bugs me is the use of the word "overrated" and "underrated". Bands and artists are "rated" exactly as they should be, obviously. Whether or not an individual thinks otherwise is completely irrelevant. I don't understand the popularity of Beyonce or Justin Timberlake, for instance, but that doesn't matter to their fans at all. Wilson is undeniably the most well known and popular prog related musician currently, so he obviously "rates" for a lot of people (and even being the most popular "prog" musician, that popularity is STILL dwarfed by the two acts I mentioned previously.......something that will baffle me until the day I die). |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 09:02
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^ With those two artists, there is additional stuff they do that bring them into the main stream, Beyonce is making TV commercials for makeup and such, so she gets a lot of pop culture exposure that I suspect gets her a lot of interest in her music..but regardless she is very popular person now.....Same as Justin Timberlake, his appearances on SNL are becoming very popular, it helps a lot.
I suspect if Steven Wilson made TV commercials or appeared on Jay Leno or SNL the interest in his music from the main stream media would jump quite a bit.....and I am not saying we or he wants that.
But I agree with you, a lot of these pop acts dwarf what SW or PT have done or might do in the future. -------------
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Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 09:35
That's weird that it would bug you. To say that a band is underrated suggests that they are being over-looked or undervalued, and someday this error may be corrected. Embedded within these terms is the notion that value judgments are temporal, unstable, and subject to constant revision and reevaluation. For example, Talk Talk were very underrated; in their time, they were critically maligned, considered to be derivative at best and hopelessly out-of-date at worst, and ignored by the general public. Only as time went by were they re-evaluated, rescued from obscurity and exalted to the 'canon'. I think it's interesting to consider the case of Floyd's Ummagumma, how it was received at the time, its influence, and its waning popularity. At the time of its release, many critics in England hailed the album as Floyd's best, a masterpiece, in which they finally realized their potential. Both the studio album and the live album were obviously very influential; indeed, this might be Floyd's most "Germanic" album. However, shifting values and the dominance of American music magazines (as well as the strong ideology of American critics) led to the album's being increasing dismissed, till today it has the reputation of being mediocre. Personally, I love the studio album, and consider it to be underrated by most.
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Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 10:09
The spirit of the times. To paraphrase Marx, there's a spectre weighing on all of us; the ghosts of the past [i.e. Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Tull] haunt the brains of the living. The very ones forging any kind of future for prog as a forward-looking music rather than a curator of the past are probably the very ones that would have a hard time getting into PA (like the Flaming Lips, Aphex Twin and Future Sound of London, ), because they're least bound by genre conventions, which over time ossify and solidify into a fossilized, restrictive shackle. Great works almost always play with the idea of genre; that's the contradiction of genre, in that the closer you look, the more porous are its borders.An idea bandied about a lot for the past decade is "hauntology." Usually it's used in connection with electronic artists like Boards of Canada, Burial, the Caretaker (i.e. Leyland Kirby), William Basinski, and others like Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti. It's the idea of the absent present being colonized and haunted by the past. (No one else has said this, but in film, the best representation of this would have to be the Japanese horror film, Kairo/Pulse. The present is literally being hollowed out and emptied, while ghosts flood into the present, haunting the shadows and the white noise of electronic pulses.) I'm not saying this fits Wilson. The whole retro thing's been going on for some time now in music, and I'm not talking about prog, but also pop and rock and jazz and blues; hauntology's the next level, and I'm not sure it describes any band or musician in PA. I can only imagine how cool a 'prog hauntology' could be. Ghostly mellotrons; disembodied wailing voices; great music yet to be made and scarcely imagined :-) There's loads of articles on 'hauntology'; here's one the purports to be a primer (I haven't read it yet): http://www.nightoftheworld.com/writingfiles/hauntprimer.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.nightoftheworld.com/writingfiles/hauntprimer.html And here are some of my favorite songs that would be described as "hauntological": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfTwqBfxgo" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfTwqBfxgo , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtNPzaHO7k" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtNPzaHO7k , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwId2SIqPQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwId2SIqPQ
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 11:57
While I don't disagree with anything here (I love Ummagumma, as well as Talk Talk), I'm not really sure how it addresses what I wrote. Those two words are simply value judgments based on personal opinion. Everything your wrote reinforces the uselessness of such words. Ummagumma was created and released in a very different time. Tastes, styles, and fashions change, and so did the perception of the album.....not for you and I, but that doesn't mean we are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't get the impression that "mainstream" opinion has changed at all in relation to Talk Talk's later albums either. Just in the case of some folks on this board, though I'm no expert on what people think about them. What bugs me about the terms is that people imply that their view is correct and everyone with a contrary view is not. I find that absurd when talking about music. Your millage may differ. |
Posted By: jude111
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:10
Values don't just change randomly; rather, they are contested, and it is through struggle and contestation that they change. When a person says "this album is underrated," they are entering that struggle, contesting received wisdom and hegemonic discourses.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:16
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The problem about the whole thing though is the fact that most people don't necessarily use those terms in the correct manner. It looses it's meaning by people slinging around phrases like David Gilmour is underrated, because they feel they love his work even more than others, and that folks should immediately start loving him even harder... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:20
The Beatles? Underrated.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:34
------------- What? |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:52
Thanks for that. Very interesting. As I said, I have no problem with retro and regressive, if it's done well and appeals to me. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:53
Fair enough. Then they need to explain why they feel that way, which rarely seems to happen around here. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:57
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'Underrated' is not as emotive as "overrated" ... someone saying Gilmour is underrated isn't going to get quite the reaction that saying he is overrated will. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 13:06
Well that's a given. You'll also notice how some folks only tends to focus on the word overrated - like was it a leaver to heave people out of their sockets. We have the occasional wave of classic prog haters, who take swipes at any "holy" album in order to provoke controversy and angry posts. Not that I'm generalising(maybe slightly), but sometimes it does seem like certain individuals come here for the brawls instead of the brains. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 13:39
This might be true if you are interested in establishing a definitive canon of 'respected' or 'established' works. Many "professional" critics seem to work that way, but I'd wager that the average music listener couldn't care less. He listens to what he likes and ignores the rest. I consider the canonization of any kind of art (not just music) beyond personal best-of lists to be a rather futile exercise that has little practical value. Whenever I hear phrases like" 1001 albums you must hear before you die", I feel like smashing something. |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:13
| if someday PA decides to add Lady Gaga as a Prog artist and people find her here they rate her as one of the top ten artists in the lists , then we would say she is overrated in PA. the term overrated for artists like Wilson and Gilmour is in the same direction because this site is for Prog fans not for blues fans or pop fans and the ratings here should reflect the taste of Prog lovers, so when i see Wilson as one of the top 20 in the "top prog albums of all time" i will use the term Overrated because i expect to see artists with higher level of prog music in their work as top 20 here( in this specific site). when Wilson is highly rated in Allmusic (for example) i`ll never wonder why. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:36
Incorrect in every way imaginable. If people rate an artist (whoever that is) into the top ten list then they are rated exactly as they should be rated. It is arrogance to say otherwise. ------------- What? |
Posted By: sorcerer kermes
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:56
| Lady Gaga is not a prog artist but im sure she will get a high rating here! if you dont believe it try it and add her as a prog artist! |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:24
You haven't been here long enough to realize how silly that statement is. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:32
 ------------- What? |